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post #811 of 1875 Old 05-18-2019, 10:10 AM
 
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The BENQ HT9060 & LK990 In-Depth Reviews & Comparison Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Sure, and you have my charts. But I'd still like to see the LK990 in person. The lens on the 9060 as incredible as it is, Dave said the LK lens is even better. So that's one. And two, I'd like to see how the LK990 being laser handles full FTB.

On the flip side, while the LKs in general have a lot of light which helps with their impression of contrast ---through the top end, I would guess the HT9060s will have less light scatter and reach theirs through better blacks on the low end. So, without seeing the LKs or measuring their black levels to compare, I can't say for sure.
After being set correctly, the fade to blacks are good. There is a slight cliff towards the low end just for black as expected, but much of the harsh sudden drop can be alleviated if set up properly.

The blacks measured almost identical between the LK990 and HT9060.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Well then it sounds like the 9060 if you want any kind of accuracy is the choice for sure.
Don’t agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
I use full field when calibrating ...
Oh that’s cool. It still could have something to do with the timings for each color since it’s sequential. Only the blue shines full through the two clear segments of each wheel, color and phosphor. All other colors are derived from the blue and go through one or both wheels sequentially, which could easily impact color lumens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
If you turn off BC you get ~1700lm calibrated on the LK990...
Then don’t turn off BC. Also, keep HDR.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jare View Post
One question For Aztar and Dave, as you both went through Sonys and JVCs (and 695 latest, as Aztar says). I am thinking on buying Benq, either 9060 or 990. I have multi format screen that is 128 inch in 16:9 and 122 in 2.35:1, shooting from 4,5m. Its not a dedicated room, but rather a living room, so blacks are not huge of an issue.


I have Sony 520es now. I am leaning towards 9060, as it has perfect colour. Do you think that this would be much better than my Sony? I am satisfied with the amount of light it produces, even after 1000 hours (Im on my second lamp). Or do you think that 990 would suit me better? 9060 is much cheaper as well.



Thank you

Either of these BenQs should be better than that Sony at this point. Even more so if yours suffered from any panel degradation like I’ve seen on a client of mine’s.

I picked an LK970 over the Sony VW885ES, if that has any value for you. And the LK990 improves upon that one’s black and contrast.

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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I'm not saying your experience is a lie, but something was definitely wrong there..........
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Im not saying your experience was a lie. I'm sure that between the two projectors you saw, it was exactly as you said. My doubt is that represents what is typical between the two. ............

...............So yea, something wasn't right with that situation. It doesn't make what you saw false.

Hmmm, where have I heard that before, and been mocked and derided for saying it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
If you think you'll have enough brightness with the ht9060 (1700 calibrated lumens) go with that. It has significantly less rbe and is significantly quieter than the lk990 . The hld led tech in the ht9060 is also designed to be used in ambient light, and remember that LED light source is going to last and last unlike the 520's lamp preserving high brightness over long hours.



I'd only recommend the lk990 when the ht9060 won't be bright enough.

And your personal experience with both these projectors is................?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
990 would be bad choice, since you have a multi format screen. The 990 does not have lens memory. The 9060 would be the better option between the two.

The HT9060 doesn’t have lens memory either, Mike.



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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
.......My new laser DLP is a lumen monster and just starting to look at calibration this weekend. This projector is destined for a different room.

Are you able to share what model this is?
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post #812 of 1875 Old 05-18-2019, 01:29 PM
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Thanks Dave and Aztar. As I said, my screen is multiformat, so I do not lens memory, screen moves while the picture is still (for 16:9, 2.35:1 etc), as it has been programmed like this. So this is not an issue.
As you have said, I think that my projector suffers from panel degradation, as blacks are grey now, so from what I saw in the video I have posted, 9060 has better blacks for sure.
As 520 does not have more than 1500 lumens, and now, with used bulb, I am not sure that it has 1200-1300, if that much, I am sure that 9060 would be sufficient for me. On the other hand, I might want more (ie 990), but I like colours on 9060. Its very hard choice for sure.
Do you think that 9060 would be easier to set up, as I do not have Lumagen or something similar?
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post #813 of 1875 Old 05-18-2019, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
After being set correctly, the fade to blacks are good. There is a slight cliff towards the low end just for black as expected, but much of the harsh sudden drop can be alleviated if set up properly.

The blacks measured almost identical between the LK990 and HT9060.



Don’t agree.



Oh that’s cool. It still could have something to do with the timings for each color since it’s sequential. Only the blue shines full through the two clear segments of each wheel, color and phosphor. All other colors are derived from the blue and go through one or both wheels sequentially, which could easily impact color lumens.



Then don’t turn off BC. Also, keep HDR.





Either of these BenQs should be better than that Sony at this point. Even more so if yours suffered from any panel degradation like I’ve seen on a client of mine’s.

I picked an LK970 over the Sony VW885ES, if that has any value for you. And the LK990 improves upon that one’s black and contrast.




Hmmm, where have I heard that before, and been mocked and derided for saying it?




And your personal experience with both these projectors is................?




The HT9060 doesn’t have lens memory either, Mike.






Are you able to share what model this is?

You are right. I forgot about that. Thanks for pointing it out.
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post #814 of 1875 Old 05-18-2019, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
You are right. I forgot about that. Thanks for pointing it out.
Mike or Craig, what's your take on pairing either this 1700 lumen machine or the LK990 --in an effort to lower black level in a dark room-- with the likes of a Stewart Cima Tiburon G2 .8 (thanks Mike for the info by the way and I did later see that Don had posted G1 was the .95), or Fire Hawk or Gray Hawk? My thinking is the FH or GH would have some sparkles but will bring down blacks but whites a bit too, but the Tiburon would have the smoothest surface and widest viewing cone without sparkles.

You've seen and dealt with many screens over the years, I believe. Not for just myself only, but I think others here would appreciate your input. Thanks.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I still have the RS600, I can't give it up so I run it in stack with my other DLP projectors. My current DLP is ~2x the native of the 9060 and LK990 and has ~6800:1 DI measured on a T10. It looks great with a lot of different content. But it gets smoked 6 ways to Sunday with lower APL content. That is the blessing and curse of a velvet room. I just run the projector that best fits the content I'm watching and no arguments over which projector technology is better.

My new laser DLP is a lumen monster and just starting to look at calibration this weekend. This projector is destined for a different room.
Did you ever get your 2nd N7 or rs2000 that wasnt defective?

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post #816 of 1875 Old 05-18-2019, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Mike or Craig, what's your take on pairing either this 1700 lumen machine or the LK990 --in an effort to lower black level in a dark room-- with the likes of a Stewart Cima Tiburon G2 .8 (thanks Mike for the info by the way and I did later see that Don had posted G1 was the .95), or Fire Hawk or Gray Hawk? My thinking is the FH or GH would have some sparkles but will bring down blacks but whites a bit too, but the Tiburon would have the smoothest surface and widest viewing cone without sparkles.

You've seen and dealt with many screens over the years, I believe. Not for just myself only, but I think others here would appreciate your input. Thanks.
FireHawk would do a good job of lowering the black level, since it has the darkest substrate of the three, but also has the highest percentage of gain increase, so the most sparkle and the most brightness. GrayHawk and Tiburon, both would lower the black level and not hurt you with sparkle. You would get a little more brightness with GrayHawk and GrayHawk is just slightly smoother than Tiburon. As long as we are talking a screen size where you could go .8 or .9 gain, then my first choice between GrayHawk and Tiburon would be GrayHawk. But when considering budget, I would go Tiburon. If the screen was so large, that a little gain would help you, then FireHawk. The current generation of FireHawk has less sparkle that the older 1.3 gain stuff from several years ago.

An option that you did not think about and would perform the best of all would be HALR. No sparkle and has a gain of 1.0. While it would be the best option, it is also the most expensive. This is the only ALR screen that I have seen, where I did not see any artifacts, even showing black and white content.
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post #817 of 1875 Old 05-18-2019, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
FireHawk would do a good job of lowering the black level, since it has the darkest substrate of the three, but also has the highest percentage of gain increase, so the most sparkle and the most brightness. GrayHawk and Tiburon, both would lower the black level and not hurt you with sparkle. You would get a little more brightness with GrayHawk and GrayHawk is just slightly smoother than Tiburon. As long as we are talking a screen size where you could go .8 or .9 gain, then my first choice between GrayHawk and Tiburon would be GrayHawk. But when considering budget, I would go Tiburon. If the screen was so large, that a little gain would help you, then FireHawk. The current generation of FireHawk has less sparkle that the older 1.3 gain stuff from several years ago.

An option that you did not think about and would perform the best of all would be HALR. No sparkle and has a gain of 1.0. While it would be the best option, it is also the most expensive. This is the only ALR screen that I have seen, where I did not see any artifacts, even showing black and white content.

Thanks, Mike. That was helpful. I'm thrilled with my Stewart Cima Neve but wouldn't mind a little help with black level either. I think all the options you mentioned are great for those of us using the HT9060 with a screen size of say 130 inches or smaller who want to improve on black levels some. I, personally, would lean toward the one with the least sparkles even if it means slight improvement in blacks.
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post #818 of 1875 Old 05-18-2019, 08:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jare View Post
Thanks Dave and Aztar. As I said, my screen is multiformat, so I do not lens memory, screen moves while the picture is still (for 16:9, 2.35:1 etc), as it has been programmed like this. So this is not an issue.

As you have said, I think that my projector suffers from panel degradation, as blacks are grey now, so from what I saw in the video I have posted, 9060 has better blacks for sure.


As 520 does not have more than 1500 lumens, and now, with used bulb, I am not sure that it has 1200-1300, if that much, I am sure that 9060 would be sufficient for me.

On the other hand, I might want more (ie 990), but I like colours on 9060. Its very hard choice for sure.


Do you think that 9060 would be easier to set up, as I do not have Lumagen or something similar?

I’m not sure why everyone keeps saying this. The colors that I actually see on the LK990 are incredible and actually one of its strengths. The brightness of them just jumps off the screen with so many lumens behind them! It really does need to be seen to be understood.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
FireHawk would do a good job of lowering the black level, since it has the darkest substrate of the three, but also has the highest percentage of gain increase, so the most sparkle and the most brightness. GrayHawk and Tiburon, both would lower the black level and not hurt you with sparkle. You would get a little more brightness with GrayHawk and GrayHawk is just slightly smoother than Tiburon. As long as we are talking a screen size where you could go .8 or .9 gain, then my first choice between GrayHawk and Tiburon would be GrayHawk. But when considering budget, I would go Tiburon. If the screen was so large, that a little gain would help you, then FireHawk. The current generation of FireHawk has less sparkle that the older 1.3 gain stuff from several years ago.



An option that you did not think about and would perform the best of all would be HALR. No sparkle and has a gain of 1.0. While it would be the best option, it is also the most expensive. This is the only ALR screen that I have seen, where I did not see any artifacts, even showing black and white content.

Damn you Mike Garrett, now you’re making me want to get a new screen!!!
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post #819 of 1875 Old 05-19-2019, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post

Damn you Mike Garrett, now you’re making me want to get a new screen!!!
Yeah, I would seriously consider getting a screen sample.

For example, the way I see it, the weakest link in the HT9060 is its black level performance. Yeah, for me, it's not to the point where it throws me out of the experience, but if I can improve on it and still keep the picture sufficiently bright with virtually zero artifacts, then why not?

For your LK990, if you're running it with BC and getting about 3000 lumens, that to me is still a light cannon. Unless your space is shrouded in black velvet, that amount of light is sure to wash out some dark areas.

Last point, make sure to choose one with the least sparklees. @Mike Garrett was saying his Stewart Gray Hawks and Tiburons will work well there. As far as the HALR, I need to read up on those.
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post #820 of 1875 Old 05-19-2019, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
it's possible that unit had the same issue as Arrow's original NX9 which had major internal reflections. He later received a copy that was much better. So what was happening with that first unit? something not aligned in the lens system? I saw something similar on one of the RS2000's I had here but it was damaged in shipping and had other issues.

That could explain why the 295 was looking better in mid-apl scenes.
I think you're right that that's another possibility for sure, or that one unit was calibrated and the other was not, or something else. I'm really not sure. I just reported what I saw.
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post #821 of 1875 Old 05-20-2019, 08:52 AM
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I've pretty much finished up my testing on the LK970. I'm extremely impressed with how bright the projector can get and the noise level it maintains. On my screen it peaks out just above 50 fL, which is brighter than the RS4500 was, but the noise level is more in line with the JVC NX line in high lamp. In Eco mode it goes to just above 30 fL but at a noise level I would associate with low lamp on the JVC line. Very impressive from a light output and shows that you can put out lumens and not have to have a lot of noise associated with it.

From a calibration standpoint this is NOT a good projector. I was actually surprised how poorly it measures for gamma and color accuracy given how fantastic the HT9060 was in this regard. This projector is limited to 709 and even comes up short of that. The more you push for something resembling linear saturation tracking and accuracy, the more of the gamut you lose.

Gamma tracking is also quite poor and the projector doesn't give you any settings to balance it.

The "Dimming" mode for laser output limits the output to about 10 fL on my screen and does not improve contrast at all. Blacks look better, but that is because it is starting so much lower than it was before so the blacks are not as elevated. Overall, the best contrast ratio I could ever achieve was about 1100:1, and with any type of calibration it would get down to around 800:1.

So you have a really bright and really sharp projector. This will make a lot of content look quite good, but it also makes a lot of content look pretty bad. From an accuracy standpoint this is a non-starter. There is also some processing going on that gives the image a weird "bounce" effect with fine details that I see in test patterns. Not really noticeable in normal viewing though. RBE is definitely an issue if you are sensitive, but it isn't the worst projector I've seen in this regard.

From what I've seen so far, if you have a lot of ambient light and you want to have a projector that will fill up a really big screen with a lot of lumens and accuracy of image is not a concern, this would fit the bill nicely. Especially for sports and TV watching. This is not a projector I would even come close to recommending for a controlled viewing environment where the bulk of your time is spent watching movies. It just doesn't offer a compelling case unless you just need A LOT of light at the expense of just about everything else.

I would DEFINITELY recommend the 9060 over this one for someone looking for a HT projector and they want a solid state DLP design so long as the light output is enough for their needs. It is FAR more accurate, better contrast and supports a wider color gamut for HDR. I would still recommend an outboard HDR solution like a Panasonic UB player or MadVR/Lumagen as the tone mapping in the 9060 leaves a lot to be desired.

For the record, I have not tried Dave's settings to see what they bring to the table. He mentioned a few pages back about getting me some updated settings when I asked for any settings but I haven't seen him post them. If he provides the settings I will be sure to take a look while I still have the projector. The 970 does not have a lot of adjustments available to it compared to other designs out there, so I'm curious to see what exactly he can achieve with the limited amount of options available.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I would DEFINITELY recommend the 9060 over this one for someone looking for a HT projector and they want a solid state DLP design so long as the light output is enough for their needs. It is FAR more accurate, better contrast and supports a wider color gamut for HDR.
Thanks for your review, Kris. I never got to demo the LKs, so this was very helpful.

I wanted to say that a few of us here are wondering how the HT9060 would fare with a negative gain screen of a size of about 130 inches or fewer, say in a dark room. Some people were asking me about that, but I'm using a 1.1 gain Neve. With the Neve, the darks in mixed bright/dark scenes appear pretty good to me, but I think I can get a better impression of depth with a slightly darker screen.

Mike helped out on this point, but I also wanted your thoughts if you don't mind. Thanks in advance.
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post #823 of 1875 Old 05-20-2019, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Thanks for your review, Kris. I never got to demo the LKs, so this was very helpful.

I wanted to say that a few of us here are wondering how the HT9060 would fare with a negative gain screen of a size of about 130 inches or fewer, say in a dark room. Some people were asking me about that, but I'm using a 1.1 gain Neve. With the Neve, the darks in mixed bright/dark scenes appear pretty good to me, but I think I can get a better impression of depth with a slightly darker screen.

Mike helped out on this point, but I also wanted your thoughts if you don't mind. Thanks in advance.
Unless your room is dark but also quite reflective it is hard to see how you would get much useful benefit. The negative gain screen works only when you're calibrating to hit a certain peak white and a significant % of that light bounces back at the screen from the room.

If the room is non-reflective then you can achieve almost the same result with an ND filter.

If the room is reflective then there are some gains to be had from a negative gain screen.
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post #824 of 1875 Old 05-20-2019, 11:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I've pretty much finished up my testing on the LK970. I'm extremely impressed with how bright the projector can get and the noise level it maintains. On my screen it peaks out just above 50 fL, which is brighter than the RS4500 was, but the noise level is more in line with the JVC NX line in high lamp. In Eco mode it goes to just above 30 fL but at a noise level I would associate with low lamp on the JVC line. Very impressive from a light output and shows that you can put out lumens and not have to have a lot of noise associated with it.



From a calibration standpoint this is NOT a good projector. I was actually surprised how poorly it measures for gamma and color accuracy given how fantastic the HT9060 was in this regard. This projector is limited to 709 and even comes up short of that. The more you push for something resembling linear saturation tracking and accuracy, the more of the gamut you lose.



Gamma tracking is also quite poor and the projector doesn't give you any settings to balance it.



The "Dimming" mode for laser output limits the output to about 10 fL on my screen and does not improve contrast at all. Blacks look better, but that is because it is starting so much lower than it was before so the blacks are not as elevated. Overall, the best contrast ratio I could ever achieve was about 1100:1, and with any type of calibration it would get down to around 800:1.



So you have a really bright and really sharp projector. This will make a lot of content look quite good, but it also makes a lot of content look pretty bad. From an accuracy standpoint this is a non-starter. There is also some processing going on that gives the image a weird "bounce" effect with fine details that I see in test patterns. Not really noticeable in normal viewing though. RBE is definitely an issue if you are sensitive, but it isn't the worst projector I've seen in this regard.



From what I've seen so far, if you have a lot of ambient light and you want to have a projector that will fill up a really big screen with a lot of lumens and accuracy of image is not a concern, this would fit the bill nicely. Especially for sports and TV watching. This is not a projector I would even come close to recommending for a controlled viewing environment where the bulk of your time is spent watching movies. It just doesn't offer a compelling case unless you just need A LOT of light at the expense of just about everything else.



I would DEFINITELY recommend the 9060 over this one for someone looking for a HT projector and they want a solid state DLP design so long as the light output is enough for their needs. It is FAR more accurate, better contrast and supports a wider color gamut for HDR. I would still recommend an outboard HDR solution like a Panasonic UB player or MadVR/Lumagen as the tone mapping in the 9060 leaves a lot to be desired.



For the record, I have not tried Dave's settings to see what they bring to the table. He mentioned a few pages back about getting me some updated settings when I asked for any settings but I haven't seen him post them. If he provides the settings I will be sure to take a look while I still have the projector. The 970 does not have a lot of adjustments available to it compared to other designs out there, so I'm curious to see what exactly he can achieve with the limited amount of options available.

In case you didn’t know, the “Dimming” mode is not what you think Kris. It has nothing to do with dynamic laser/iris style dimming. It’s just a really dim mode to get max life out of the lasers.

So what image modes did you test then? HDR to SDR, SDR, etc.? What gamma? What sources?

I should finally have some time to dig up those settings for you today.

Why post this LK970 review in the HT9060 vs LK990 thread? Perhaps it should be moved to the actual LK970 thread?

Lastly, why am I not shocked?
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post #825 of 1875 Old 05-20-2019, 11:55 AM
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In case you didn’t know, the “Dimming” mode is not what you think Kris. It has nothing to do with dynamic laser/iris style dimming. It’s just a really dim mode to get max life out of the lasers.

So what image modes did you test then? HDR to SDR, SDR, etc.? What gamma? What sources?

I should finally have some time to dig up those settings for you today.

Why post this LK970 review in the HT9060 vs LK990 thread? Perhaps it should be moved to the actual LK970 thread?

Lastly, why am I not shocked?
It wasn't hard to figure out that the "dimming" mode was not the same as the Smart Eco mode of the 9060. I just wanted to be sure anyone else looking at these understood this as well.

I looked at SDR and HDR sources, and for HDR I just let the Panasonic do the tone mapping since this projector doesn't accept a HDR input and only does 709 color (if that). The Panasonic adjusts its tone map to the incoming source (I just used a variety of discs) so it will do a better job than a simple static one size fits all tone map. Since the BenQ doesn't even offer a multi-point gamma/grayscale adjustment, anything done in the menu would only be trying to bend a big curve. The Panasonic solution worked really well and makes more of a plug and play solution.

For gamma I actually tried a variety of settings. I started out with BT1886 for SDR. This ended up with a gamma closer to 2.1-2.2 because the black level is so terrible. Peak white ends up adjusted to 2.3 instead of 2.4 because the perceptual curve is so aggressive. You don't even hit a 2.2 until like 50%. With a power 2.2 gamma you end up with a roll off as well, with the bottom part of the curve going more into 2.0 to 2.1 territory. This is what causes the washed out effect that I keep talking about that has nothing to do with black scenes and everything to do with anything that is not a big bright image on a bright sunny day. This is why I said this would work really well with sports or TV shows that are bright, but not at all what I would suggest for watching movies. It gives me the same impression I used to get with washed out LCD flat panels with really low contrast, and you see what they do with those now.

I posted this here because I was talking about this and the 9060 before in this thread. I'm happy to copy it over to the 970 thread as well. I just started the conversation here a while back because I was looking at both of these.

Also, you shouldn't be surprised by my thoughts. There is nothing special about this projector except that it is bright and sharp. It doesn't do contrast any better than the others, and it is far worse than the DLPs of yesteryear in this regard. Color accuracy and gamut coverage is poor compared to just about anything on the market today. I wanted to see this one because the hype and see if there was something that would surprise me despite the fact that I couldn't see how it would. Then I test it out and measure it and imagine that, it is just about exactly what I thought it would be. Fancy that, I'm capable of making educated guesses on the performance of something based on my experience with other similar products??

I'm super impressed with the output capabilities compared to noise and I continue to be impressed with BenQ's optics. I was VERY disappointed with the level of refinement of this one compared to the 9060, which calibrated MUCH better but obviously doesn't have the same kind of light output. Neither of these projectors are what I would recommend for people in a light controlled room looking to get the best image from movie playback, just like I would never recommend a JVC for a non-light controlled room for getting the best image playback for sports and casual TV watching. But obviously there are those that are happy as clams with both of these situations and more power to them! I have absolutely zero issue with anyone enjoying the displays or anything else in their system regardless of how I feel about those products.

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post #826 of 1875 Old 05-20-2019, 03:19 PM
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Thanks for your review, Kris. I never got to demo the LKs, so this was very helpful.

I wanted to say that a few of us here are wondering how the HT9060 would fare with a negative gain screen of a size of about 130 inches or fewer, say in a dark room. Some people were asking me about that, but I'm using a 1.1 gain Neve. With the Neve, the darks in mixed bright/dark scenes appear pretty good to me, but I think I can get a better impression of depth with a slightly darker screen.

Mike helped out on this point, but I also wanted your thoughts if you don't mind. Thanks in advance.
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Unless your room is dark but also quite reflective it is hard to see how you would get much useful benefit. The negative gain screen works only when you're calibrating to hit a certain peak white and a significant % of that light bounces back at the screen from the room.

If the room is non-reflective then you can achieve almost the same result with an ND filter.

If the room is reflective then there are some gains to be had from a negative gain screen.
I did try the LK990 with an ND filter and it did improve the appearing image because it cut the black floor in half, but it also cut the white light output by half... so, a negative gain screen is only going to lower your peak white as much as it lowers your black, you are killing brightness in the name of a lower black floor, I just dont really see why you wouldn't just seek out a better native contrast machine inn the first place.
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post #827 of 1875 Old 05-21-2019, 02:24 PM
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Unless your room is dark but also quite reflective it is hard to see how you would get much useful benefit. The negative gain screen works only when you're calibrating to hit a certain peak white and a significant % of that light bounces back at the screen from the room.

If the room is non-reflective then you can achieve almost the same result with an ND filter.

If the room is reflective then there are some gains to be had from a negative gain screen.
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I did try the LK990 with an ND filter and it did improve the appearing image because it cut the black floor in half, but it also cut the white light output by half... so, a negative gain screen is only going to lower your peak white as much as it lowers your black, you are killing brightness in the name of a lower black floor,
Thanks, guys. That makes sense to me too.

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I just dont really see why you wouldn't just seek out a better native contrast machine inn the first place.
Although more would be nice, the black levels on the HT9060 are sufficient for my needs. The dark scenes on the better Lcos projectors I've had are not as good as the HT9060's to the same extent the 9060's mid and bright scenes are better than the Lcos's mid/bright scenes.

If I were just watching a black screen all the time, then I'd definitely go back to focusing only on the machines with the best black levels period.
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post #828 of 1875 Old 05-21-2019, 02:29 PM
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Thanks, guys. That makes sense to me too.







Although more would be nice, the black levels on the HT9060 are sufficient for my needs. The dark scenes on the better Lcos projectors I've had are not as good as the HT9060's to the same extent the 9060's mid and bright scenes are better than the Lcos's mid/bright scenes.



If I were just watching a black screen all the time, then I'd definitely go back to focusing only on the machines with the best black levels period.
A black screen is far from what we mean when discussing high native contrast projectors.

C'mon mate, where have you been when we discuss ADL levels and measure the ADL range of displays? A high native contrast machine will benefit you over all else from about 0 to 10% ADL which is where the majority of the content sits.

In the HDR era, I would not be running a 0.8gain screen I know that much.
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post #829 of 1875 Old 05-21-2019, 02:33 PM
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P.s. what does your room setup look like? Is it totally treated? Do that first and then see where it takes you?

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Room is good. No reflections.


You know, I already had that X990, and when you cross over at certain ADL, this 9060 DLP performs fantastically.

And it's more than just ADL. The convergence artifacts and the way the image looks with certain content I've demo'd too.
Try watching some content shot with a particular camera lens like Greatest Showman or the Last Jedi on an Lcos.
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post #831 of 1875 Old 05-21-2019, 02:59 PM
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Room is good. No reflections.





You know, I already had that X990, and when you cross over at certain ADL, this 9060 DLP performs fantastically.



And it's more than just ADL. The convergence artifacts and the way the image looks with certain content I've demo'd too.

Try watching some content shot with a particular camera lens like Greatest Showman or the Last Jedi on an Lcos.
That's great but you know I didn't like the 9900 at all, and it wasn't just because of the samples I had.

Maybe you can grab an N5 or N7 and see how the native 4k panels go?

Have you spoken with Kris Deering about his findings on the 9060?

I have no issue with what lenses are used to shoot films and how they look on differing panel technology, do you care to elaborate on that please?

I don't see any convergence artefacts from my seat on the 9500. I also don't get how a lens used in the capture stage is going to affect the projection stage regarding artefacts unless you are suggesting soft focus areas look bad.

What gain screen have you got right now? My point is going negative gain while chasing black levels is going to radically impact your HDR performance on any reasonable screen size.
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
It wasn't hard to figure out that the "dimming" mode was not the same as the Smart Eco mode of the 9060. I just wanted to be sure anyone else looking at these understood this as well.



I looked at SDR and HDR sources, and for HDR I just let the Panasonic do the tone mapping since this projector doesn't accept a HDR input and only does 709 color (if that). The Panasonic adjusts its tone map to the incoming source (I just used a variety of discs) so it will do a better job than a simple static one size fits all tone map. Since the BenQ doesn't even offer a multi-point gamma/grayscale adjustment, anything done in the menu would only be trying to bend a big curve. The Panasonic solution worked really well and makes more of a plug and play solution.



For gamma I actually tried a variety of settings. I started out with BT1886 for SDR. This ended up with a gamma closer to 2.1-2.2 because the black level is so terrible. Peak white ends up adjusted to 2.3 instead of 2.4 because the perceptual curve is so aggressive. You don't even hit a 2.2 until like 50%. With a power 2.2 gamma you end up with a roll off as well, with the bottom part of the curve going more into 2.0 to 2.1 territory. This is what causes the washed out effect that I keep talking about that has nothing to do with black scenes and everything to do with anything that is not a big bright image on a bright sunny day. This is why I said this would work really well with sports or TV shows that are bright, but not at all what I would suggest for watching movies. It gives me the same impression I used to get with washed out LCD flat panels with really low contrast, and you see what they do with those now.



I posted this here because I was talking about this and the 9060 before in this thread. I'm happy to copy it over to the 970 thread as well. I just started the conversation here a while back because I was looking at both of these.



Also, you shouldn't be surprised by my thoughts. There is nothing special about this projector except that it is bright and sharp. It doesn't do contrast any better than the others, and it is far worse than the DLPs of yesteryear in this regard. Color accuracy and gamut coverage is poor compared to just about anything on the market today. I wanted to see this one because the hype and see if there was something that would surprise me despite the fact that I couldn't see how it would. Then I test it out and measure it and imagine that, it is just about exactly what I thought it would be. Fancy that, I'm capable of making educated guesses on the performance of something based on my experience with other similar products??



I'm super impressed with the output capabilities compared to noise and I continue to be impressed with BenQ's optics. I was VERY disappointed with the level of refinement of this one compared to the 9060, which calibrated MUCH better but obviously doesn't have the same kind of light output. Neither of these projectors are what I would recommend for people in a light controlled room looking to get the best image from movie playback, just like I would never recommend a JVC for a non-light controlled room for getting the best image playback for sports and casual TV watching. But obviously there are those that are happy as clams with both of these situations and more power to them! I have absolutely zero issue with anyone enjoying the displays or anything else in their system regardless of how I feel about those products.

Thanks for your thoughts. Not my experience at all though. If you guys don’t like me saying it’s the setup, then I don’t know what else it could be or what to call it because I don’t see any of the things you guys seem to be saying other than when it’s extremely very dark content. Those low ADL scenes everyone posts look quite amazing here.

I found old info and discussions regarding RGBY DLPs (similar to RGBW OLED) and Brilliant Color and why they don’t measure right and how lumens are affected. I’ll try to post when I get home late tonight.

I know what I see and I know what a good image is, and this is it. I’m baffled as to why you guys can’t seem to get there. It looks like I’ll be back in the mainland for the foreseeable future soon, so I’ll gladly setup viewings at some dealers I know as well as try to take it around for showings. Then maybe everyone will finally understand and stop thinking me a quack. I don’t doubt any of your guy’s abilities and I certainly don’t appreciate how I’ve been portrayed. If you can’t get what I do out of these I don’t know what else to say anymore, because it IS possible, I’ve done it and I see it first hand! The assumptions of what can and can’t be coaxed out of these is simply wrong, sorry to say.
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That's great but you know I didn't like the 9900 at all, and it wasn't just because of the samples I had.
I know, I remember. In a side-by-side with your 9500, your 9900 sample didn't do too well. We were looking at the X990 I had too and my convergence and lens were real good though.

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Maybe you can grab an N5 or N7 and see how the native 4k panels go?
Have you spoken with Kris Deering about his findings on the 9060?
I demo'd an NX9 and an NX5. While neither had the black levels you and I are used to from the days of the last series, the NX9 had very, very good blacks. The NX5 I saw, to me at least, was outperformed by the Sony 295ES in a side-by-side comparison; now that could have been because that JVC was not calibrated or perhaps there was some other issue going on as some here have suggested. I don't know.

As far as speaking with Kris, I didn't get to speak with him about it, no. But I have one here in the flesh. Sure, it has its weaknesses: I've noticed some vertical pan judder streaming on a rare occasion, soft 3D by DLP standards, and the dynamic dimming doesn't engage on credits over a black background which leaves you with the PJ's native contrast. All else, however, I'm thrilled!

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I have no issue with what lenses are used to shoot films and how they look on differing panel technology, do you care to elaborate on that please?

I don't see any convergence artefacts from my seat on the 9500. I also don't get how a lens used in the capture stage is going to affect the projection stage regarding artefacts unless you are suggesting soft focus areas look bad.
I"m glad you don't as it sometimes bothers me.

Yeah. Lcos, by its nature, has a softer look to it than does DLP, for the most part, and being a three chip display has inherent alignment fringing. If the capture of a particular movie is intentionally made to present a soft, sublime feel, Lcos will compound that, I think. I suppose a great PJ lens will lessen any negative effect, however. Demo those movies, and you'll get what I mean.

I would just add that I found the Sony projectors to be the closest to that DLP look while also exhibiting better contrast down low.


Lastly, I have a white screen, a Stewart 125 inch 2.35:1 Cima Neve. It's rated at 1.1 gain by Stewart and 1.2 at center by Accucal.
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post #834 of 1875 Old 05-21-2019, 03:48 PM
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Yeah. Lcos, by its nature, has a softer look to it than does DLP, for the most part, and being a three chip display has inherent alignment fringing. If the capture of a particular movie is intentionally made to present a soft, sublime feel, Lcos will compound that, I think. I suppose a great PJ lens will lessen any negative effect, however. Demo those movies, and you'll get what I mean.

I would just add that I found the Sony projectors to be the closest to that DLP look while also exhibiting better contrast down low.


Lastly, I have a white screen, a Stewart 125 inch 2.35:1 Cima Neve. It's rated at 1.1 gain by Stewart and 1.2 at center by Accucal.
Yeah I did demo the LK990 on a lot of movies, I spent a good 40-50 hours with it looking at all sorts of content, I went almost right through my catalogue looking at scenes. I am sorry but I dont see what you mean regarding LCOS not handing soft material well, though the 9900 was inherently soft, that was actually my number 1 huge complaint about it, so in that once sense it explains alot about that one model, but not LCOS technology as a whole. Rather it sounds like your issue is with Eshift 5.. Maybe because I am using MadVR so everything is the truly best upscaling and processing possible it could even the playing field?

For me, the LK excelled at very clean source content, Mission Impossible 6 at the end was a standout.

Samsara up-scaled was another. But unfortunately for every scene I could find where it excelled I could find another where it didn't. But that's just that unit maybe and I also head to learn to separate where XPR is better than eshift and try to look at the panel technology separately. Sounds like yours has only half the potential issues I found with the LK990. No rainbows, and good colour are both things I would prefer. Sounds like you get a bit more contrast too.

Right so your screen is 1.2 gain in the middle. Please do an experiment for me. Take your peak white and use the LED level and dim it down to 33% of its peak and see if that's enough for HDR for you, because that's what 0.8 gain will be.

33% reduction is a pretty big deal IMO.
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post #835 of 1875 Old 05-21-2019, 04:09 PM
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In the HDR era, I would not be running a 0.8gain screen I know that much.
This is really not the best blanket advice, as there are a number of reasons you might want to go with a neutral or slight negative gain in the HDR age.

First, specifically concerning DLP projectors they excel at bright content and most would agree that bright content is their strong point, while very dark content is their weak point. While I wouldn't go below 0.9 gain for a non-AT screen, I also wouldn't go above 1.0 gain unless definitely needed for brightness. The fact is, any unnecessary gain amplification of a DLP image will begin to sap the image of depth, as you are amplifying it's weak point (black floor) along with it's strong point (which doesn't need amplification with typical screen sizes). As projectors like the HT9060 are already overperforming in brightness over time due to the HLD LED light source on typical 110-130" screens, it is a good deal to either go neutral gain or sacriifice 10% peak white to tighten up the blacks a bit using 0.9 gain screen.

0.8 gain still might be needed in the HDR age if you want a texture free/sparkle free AT screen.

1.1+ gain are better suited when you absolutely need the brightness or want to give more pop to an LCOS projector which maybe could use the bright content punch and won't suffer from amplifying the black floor

For non AT medium size screen with projector like ht9060 I personally think something like the Da Lite HD Progressive 0.9 material offers the best balance of brightness and black level for DLP PJs. Again though I wouldn't go any further negative than that unless going AT.

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post #836 of 1875 Old 05-21-2019, 04:12 PM
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This is really not the best blanket advice, as there are a number of reasons you might want to go with a neutral or slight negative gain in the HDR age.

First, specifically concerning DLP projectors they excel at bright content and most would agree that bright content is their strong point, while very dark content is their weak point. While I wouldn't go below 0.9 gain for a non-AT screen, I also wouldn't go above 1.0 gain unless definitely needed for brightness. The fact is, any unnecessary gain amplification of a DLP image will begin to sap the image of depth, as you are amplifying it's weak point along with it's strong point (which doesn't need a amplification). As projectors like the HT9060 are already overperforming in brightness over time due to the HLD LED light source on typical 110-130" screens, it is a good deal to either go neutral gain or sacriifice 10% peak white to tighten up the blacks a bit.

0.8 gain still might be needed in the HDR age if you want a texture free/sparkle free AT screen.

1.1+ gain are better suited when you absolutely need the brightness or want to give more pop to an LCOS projector which maybe could use the bright content punch and won't suffer from amplifying the black floor
If DLP's had an actual Iris, the reverse would be true too. You could stop down the iris and GAIN contrast. You are keeping the same contrast with negative gain on a DLP, just making the whole image dimmer.

So, for DLP, you may be correct, but all other projectors which actually have an iris, I dont agree.

For eg, a 0.8 gain screen with a JVC might require you to run it wide open iris, but a 1.5 gain screen may allow you to run the iris -10 or more and tripe or quadruple your contrast ratio.
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A black screen is far from what we mean when discussing high native contrast projectors.

C'mon mate, where have you been when we discuss ADL levels and measure the ADL range of displays? A high native contrast machine will benefit you over all else from about 0 to 10% ADL which is where the majority of the content sits.

In the HDR era, I would not be running a 0.8gain screen I know that much.
This is why I said the Stewart HALR was a much better choice at 1.0 gain. Improved black levels without all the artifacts and no loss of gain over a 1.0 white screen.
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If DLP's had an actual Iris, the reverse would be true too. You could stop down the iris and GAIN contrast. You are keeping the same contrast with negative gain on a DLP, just making the whole image dimmer.

So, for DLP, you may be correct, but all other projectors which actually have an iris, I dont agree.

For eg, a 0.8 gain screen with a JVC might require you to run it wide open iris, but a 1.5 gain screen may allow you to run the iris -10 or more and tripe or quadruple your contrast ratio.
The projector that Aztar has does not have a physical iris, as is the case with most solid state models. So again that's why I'm saying it's not the best blanket advice to give. You have to consider the specific technology and model being used. He likes his projector a lot and screen material is one way he tighten up the image just a tad more for his model.

Having a 0.9-1.0 gain screen also has other benefits like the complete elimination of gain artifacts and/or narrow half angle which are present to some extent on all screens over 1.0 gain (no free lunch). Can also be present on neutral to negative gain screens if for instance you start with an 0.6 grey screen gain material and add gain to it, but when I speak of 0.9-1.0 material I am speaking of white/super light grey material.

All that being said I personally wouldn't choose the 0.8 material he was considering as I think it would be unnecessary to give up that much brightness. I'm more a fan of the 0.9 da lite hd prog stuff for DLP. 0.8 I'd only consider if going AT and the lower gain helps minimize texture and gain artifacts.

The da lite 0.9 hd prog material also has the fun backstory that when Joe Kane was commissioned to help create a material that would be the ideal pair for Samsung dlp projector that 0.9 material was what he settled on. I can see why as for dlp tech i so far have not found a more pleasingly balanced material (assuming the dlp pj is bright enough to light it up for size being used).
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
The projector that Aztar has does not have a physical iris, as is the case with most solid state models. So again that's why I'm saying it's not the best blanket advice to give. You have to consider the specific technology and model being used. He likes his projector a lot and screen material is one way he tighten up the image just a tad more for his model.



Having a 0.9-1.0 gain screen also has other benefits like the complete elimination of gain artifacts and/or narrow half angle which are present to some extent on all screens over 1.0 gain (no free lunch). Can also be present on neutral to negative gain screens if for instance you start with an 0.6 grey screen gain material and add gain to it, but when I speak of 0.9-1.0 material I am speaking of white/super light grey material.



All that being said I personally wouldn't choose the 0.8 material he was considering as I think it would be unnecessary to give up that much brightness. I'm more a fan of the 0.9 da lite hd prog stuff for DLP. 0.8 I'd only consider if going AT and the lower gain helps minimize texture and gain artifacts.



The da lite 0.9 hd prog material also has the fun backstory that when Joe Kane was commissioned to help create a material that would be the ideal pair for Samsung dlp projector that 0.9 material was what he settled on. I can see why as for dlp tech i so far have not found a more pleasingly balanced material (assuming the dlp pj is bright enough to light it up for size being used).
Sure if Aztar is keeping that projector forever. What about the next projector he buys ..

Also I said I would not run 0.8 gain in an HDR era and I explained why. It's not blanket advice it's stating my personal opinion about me. Which I why I said 'I'.

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post #840 of 1875 Old 05-21-2019, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Have you spoken with Kris Deering about his findings on the 9060?
Javs, I think many of us really value your contributions, but statements like the above seem to belie a bias towards high contrast projectors that is dismissive of projectors that may have differing advantages; i.e. the questions seems to suggest you know there is something wrong with the HT9060 and Kris will be happy to state those failings. You make this suggestion to Aztar despite the fact that he owns the HT9060 and in the past has owned high contrast projectors. SOWK, who owns an NX7, has also stated that the HT9060 is an extremely good projector, even in the context of the JVC NX5/NX7. Kris clearly has his biases (which is to be expected, we all do, it is an inherent element of the human condition), and we don't all have to agree with his preferences (and I'm pretty sure he would agree).

BTW, I just purchased a JVC X790R because of my biases. I was looking for a projector that would serve my needs with SDR content (especially for science fiction movies and the like) with a 120" cinemascope screen. However, if SDR was not a factor I would have chosen the HT9060 over the X790R and the NX5 for various reasons that you and Kris probably don't share. As I said, we all have our biases.
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