The BENQ HT9060 & LK990 In-Depth Reviews & Comparison Thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 820 Old 02-21-2019, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
I'm wondering if Arrow took his Lamborghini on a long vacation drive or something, ??? He hasn't updated here in a while.

That’s because he finally saw the LK990 and is now too busy in the process of ripping out all that old outdated crap to install it!!!

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post #62 of 820 Old 02-21-2019, 03:29 PM
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I'm sure people are getting anxious ...heck, I'd even settle for, "The projector comes with a nice power cord," at this point.
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post #63 of 820 Old 02-21-2019, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Tell that to the dealers that sold W6000's. Those projectors got shipped to customers, back to the dealer, back to BenQ for update, back to dealer and then back to the customer. Only to discover BenQ fixed one item, but broke 1:1 pixel mapping, so the whole shipping procedure had to be repeated all over again. Optoma may be worse. Look at how many firmware updates the UHZ65 has had. Way over a dozen and also has to go back to manufacturer for any update.
Hi Mike,

I'm pretty sure that I mentioned to you in the UHZ65 threads that there were only around 4 Firmware updates released for the UHZ65.

C05, C07, C08, and C11 which is the current Firmware that was released over a year ago last January 2018.

Have you heard of others, or did you just forget?
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post #64 of 820 Old 02-22-2019, 02:10 AM
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Just saw Kris Deering's review of the Sony 995ES..

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...t-measurements

I noticed that at ADL 4%, native contrast already dropped to 2000:1, then quickly drop to 600:1 at 20%. This isn't much different from the JVCs.

So, this got me thinking. If these projectors are only capable of the 15K-20K:1 at off/on, and then for the most of the range, it's not far from the DLPs, then what's the big deal with contrast? How many movie scenes comes in 1 pixel lighted up anyways? or, even below 5%???

And this may be why the LK970 may have the advantage above 5% ADL, where the contrast is similar, but the LUMENS comes into PLAY!! I don't know, just judging by the numbers here as I have not seen the LK970...
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post #65 of 820 Old 02-22-2019, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
That spec sheet is the "more info." The HC variant's availability is pretty new

Apparently DPI tweaked the lightpath and lens of their 7500 lumen model to increase contrast and came up with this 4700 lumen high contrast version. A couple of people saw the original 7500 high brightness version and didn't like it but as far as I know no one around these parts has seen or reviewed the newer high contrast revision with the modified internal lightpath and modified lens. Also don't know what the street price is like - best inquire with a DPI dealer, maybe you could get a demo.

It's not hard to include powered lens, it's just expensive. Especially when the projector weighs 50lbs to ship back and forth when repairing if it breaks.

BenQ is all about bang for buck and costs built into powered lens motor doesn't fit this well. Plus for those who need it for scope screen, a permanently mounted panamorph paladin is arguably a better solution for DLP - so for most willing to spend more getting the anamorphic lens is a better solution anyway. The cross section who need powered lens for something other than scope screen is pretty small
I can play devil's advocate and point out that back in the day, our Benq PE 8720 had powered lens controls. Our Sharp Z30K has powered controls.
Several major FP makers, including Sony and JVC include powered controls as standard features. DLP has been lagging behind for the last 7-8 years. I say, "Get with the program"...

AS long as people are talking Customer Service: My experience with Benq was positive. The PE8720 had to be repaired a couple of times under warranty. They always stepped up and made the return process relatively easy

Last edited by humbland; 02-22-2019 at 05:55 AM.
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post #66 of 820 Old 02-22-2019, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by humbland View Post
I can play devil's advocate and point out that back in the day, our Benq PE 8720 had powered lens controls.
Which proves they know how to do it, and it is a business decision not to include it.

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Our Sharp Z30K has powered controls.
Sharp also had to exit the projector business after releasing that model because they were not profitable enough. Probably not a good example.

Quote:
Several major FP makers, including Sony and JVC include powered controls as standard features.
Sony and JVC are much larger companies, and also charge over triple the price for a similar build quality solid state projector.

Quote:
DLP has been lagging behind for the last 7-8 years. I say, "Get with the program"...
I just pointed out a 4K DLP that has powered lens so its not "DLP." Its simply that most BenQ shoppers don't care about powered lens, so they don't include it - especially when the permanently mounted anamorphic lens (which the BenQ has firmware to support as well as mounting holes) is a better solution for DLP on scope screen. That leaves a *very* small percentage of people that can't use either 16:9 or the anamorphic lens.

You've already pointed out BenQ has done powered lens before, so its not a lack of expertise. Its just not something BenQ buyers in general want to pay for, even if you would pay for it.

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AS long as people are talking Customer Service: My experience with Benq was positive. The PE8720 had to be repaired a couple of times under warranty. They always stepped up and made the return process relatively easy
BenQ has the best customer service for projectors in the industry IMO. They fixed an issue with my projector that was 3 years out of warranty for free, and paid shipping both ways. In the HT8060 thread, they upgraded someone who bought a cheap refurb HT8050 a brand new HT8060 to resolve their issue. These are not things that JVC and Sony does. So one must keep this in mind also when determining how important a powered lens control is in the big picture.

Last edited by Ruined; 02-22-2019 at 06:15 AM.
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post #67 of 820 Old 02-22-2019, 09:00 AM
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BenQ customer service is top notch. I am definitely a fan. I hope they just continue to
Improve their projection units. The ones discussed here are already quite good in all honesty.
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post #68 of 820 Old 02-22-2019, 01:03 PM
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From my experience, BenQ customer service is top notch for sure.
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post #69 of 820 Old 02-22-2019, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jherring69 View Post
Hi Mike,

I'm pretty sure that I mentioned to you in the UHZ65 threads that there were only around 4 Firmware updates released for the UHZ65.

C05, C07, C08, and C11 which is the current Firmware that was released over a year ago last January 2018.

Have you heard of others, or did you just forget?
I may have missed that post, or I forgot. I can't remember which. My point, I hate the fact that you have to send in for firmware updates. Can cost a dealer more than they make on the projector, if you have to have the unit picked up from a customer and returned to the manufacturer, if it happens a couple of times.
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post #70 of 820 Old 02-22-2019, 02:49 PM
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Pretty amazing that you'd have to return a unit for a firmware update in this day and age.
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post #71 of 820 Old 02-22-2019, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Pretty amazing that you'd have to return a unit for a firmware update in this day and age.


I would have thought that manufacturers wouldn’t want shipping costs and labor costs to eat into their profits.... not sure why they wouldn’t invest in the tech to let users update via usb...weird


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post #72 of 820 Old 02-22-2019, 11:20 PM
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I would have thought that manufacturers wouldn’t want shipping costs and labor costs to eat into their profits.... not sure why they wouldn’t invest in the tech to let users update via usb...weird
Maybe it's a bet they're taking that backfires in the case of these units that enthusiasts pour over and work out every bit of detail. That doesn't generally happen in the biz world.

$x for each unit for the bits of HW needed to allow external flashing of every piece of memory on the board + $y to develop user facing flash tools + $z per failed flash unit (or $z to make flash process robust to power outage etc), vs pocket that cash, do nothing and hope you don't need a FW update. Suck it up if you do.

I guess it is a sum you can do with hindsight over however many products you've made and see if it was the right choice...
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post #73 of 820 Old 02-23-2019, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Just saw Kris Deering's review of the Sony 995ES..

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...t-measurements

I noticed that at ADL 4%, native contrast already dropped to 2000:1, then quickly drop to 600:1 at 20%. This isn't much different from the JVCs.

So, this got me thinking. If these projectors are only capable of the 15K-20K:1 at off/on, and then for the most of the range, it's not far from the DLPs, then what's the big deal with contrast? How many movie scenes comes in 1 pixel lighted up anyways? or, even below 5%???

And this may be why the LK970 may have the advantage above 5% ADL, where the contrast is similar, but the LUMENS comes into PLAY!! I don't know, just judging by the numbers here as I have not seen the LK970...
Reading is your friend:

ADL of movies

But some highlights:

"First, without the black bars we get an average ADL on all 57 movies of 9.6%.
The average ADL with the black bars is 8.0%.

Our results (with black bars) show that the most important contrast values are the ones measured on patterns with a ADL luminance up to 20%. With this we have covered about 90% of all pictures found in movies!

It also means that between 20% and 100% ADL there are only 10% of all analysed picture! The ANSI contrast with 50% ADL does really not speak for the brightness reality that we observe in our favorite movies…

On the other hand, under 1% ADL we already have more than 11% of the analysed pictures, which is more than between 20% and 100% ADL all combined together!

We have 80% of all movie pictures below 13% ADL luminance and 50% of all pictures below EVEN 5% ADL luminance."

Basically, most people are GROSSLY wrong in their assumptions about how bright a scene in a movie is. But please, continue to find a reason to keep this nonsense going about how contrast on DLP projectors isn't that bad or doesn't really apply to movies.

It is funny that back in the day Texas Instruments was saying that ANSI was important for power point and excel but not much for movies and that sequential was more important for video playback. This is when they were comparable to most of the digital display technology. Now they are extremely far behind in native contrast and put out that sequential is a lie and that ANSI represents more of what you see in day to day viewing. Like all marketing BS, the technology they DO NOT have is trivial or doesn't matter in the grand scheme until they have it. I was shaking my head at similar BS from a manufacturer a year or two ago when it came to the HDMI standard they supported and their slides that tried to justify the shortcoming by saying it doesn't matter. Now they advertise that they do and make a big deal of it.

DLP now has the same strengths it has had for years now; single DLP is extremely sharp, and DLP projectors can go really bright. This hasn't changed. There are TONS of business DLP projectors that people on these forums rave about because SO BRIGHT! But they also have the same limitations (actually, they've gotten worse, not better) poor blacks, poor contrast, RBE. For some this isn't an issue, for others it is. It's is just the same argument over and over and over again.
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post #74 of 820 Old 02-23-2019, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Reading is your friend:



ADL of movies



But some highlights:



"First, without the black bars we get an average ADL on all 57 movies of 9.6%.

The average ADL with the black bars is 8.0%.



Our results (with black bars) show that the most important contrast values are the ones measured on patterns with a ADL luminance up to 20%. With this we have covered about 90% of all pictures found in movies!



It also means that between 20% and 100% ADL there are only 10% of all analysed picture! The ANSI contrast with 50% ADL does really not speak for the brightness reality that we observe in our favorite movies…



On the other hand, under 1% ADL we already have more than 11% of the analysed pictures, which is more than between 20% and 100% ADL all combined together!



We have 80% of all movie pictures below 13% ADL luminance and 50% of all pictures below EVEN 5% ADL luminance."



Basically, most people are GROSSLY wrong in their assumptions about how bright a scene in a movie is. But please, continue to find a reason to keep this nonsense going about how contrast on DLP projectors isn't that bad or doesn't really apply to movies.



It is funny that back in the day Texas Instruments was saying that ANSI was important for power point and excel but not much for movies and that sequential was more important for video playback. This is when they were comparable to most of the digital display technology. Now they are extremely far behind in native contrast and put out that sequential is a lie and that ANSI represents more of what you see in day to day viewing. Like all marketing BS, the technology they DO NOT have is trivial or doesn't matter in the grand scheme until they have it. I was shaking my head at similar BS from a manufacturer a year or two ago when it came to the HDMI standard they supported and their slides that tried to justify the shortcoming by saying it doesn't matter. Now they advertise that they do and make a big deal of it.



DLP now has the same strengths it has had for years now; single DLP is extremely sharp, and DLP projectors can go really bright. This hasn't changed. There are TONS of business DLP projectors that people on these forums rave about because SO BRIGHT! But they also have the same limitations (actually, they've gotten worse, not better) poor blacks, poor contrast, RBE. For some this isn't an issue, for others it is. It's is just the same argument over and over and over again.

OK, now you have me petrified of your LK970/990 review!

Maybe hypnotism will work on you........

“...........keep an open mind and see the image for what it is, keep an open mind and see the image for what it is, keep an open mind and see the image for what it is.........”

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post #75 of 820 Old 02-24-2019, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by DigitalAV View Post
Put a picture like this up on screen, keep your head static, then move your eyes to look at different areas of your screen. See if you notice any RGB rainbow trails in the picture.

I had a Sharp z12k back in the day and only noticed RBE rarely, almost never really. I don't know what happened with its successor, the z20k, but it was RBE city. I even tried 2 different units. It killed DLP for me, but I have hope for the 970/990.



I had/have both Sharps. Perhaps the difference was because the 12K was 720P while the 20K is 1080P.

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post #76 of 820 Old 02-25-2019, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
That spec sheet is the "more info." The HC variant's availability is pretty new

Apparently DPI tweaked the lightpath and lens of their 7500 lumen model to increase contrast and came up with this 4700 lumen high contrast version. A couple of people saw the original 7500 high brightness version and didn't like it but as far as I know no one around these parts has seen or reviewed the newer high contrast revision with the modified internal lightpath and modified lens. Also don't know what the street price is like - best inquire with a DPI dealer, maybe you could get a demo.

It's not hard to include powered lens, it's just expensive. Especially when the projector weighs 50lbs to ship back and forth when repairing if it breaks.

BenQ is all about bang for buck and costs built into powered lens motor doesn't fit this well. Plus for those who need it for scope screen, a permanently mounted panamorph paladin is arguably a better solution for DLP - so for most willing to spend more getting the anamorphic lens is a better solution anyway. The cross section who need powered lens for something other than scope screen is pretty small
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Reading is your friend:

ADL of movies

But some highlights:

"First, without the black bars we get an average ADL on all 57 movies of 9.6%.
The average ADL with the black bars is 8.0%.

Our results (with black bars) show that the most important contrast values are the ones measured on patterns with a ADL luminance up to 20%. With this we have covered about 90% of all pictures found in movies!

It also means that between 20% and 100% ADL there are only 10% of all analysed picture! The ANSI contrast with 50% ADL does really not speak for the brightness reality that we observe in our favorite movies…

On the other hand, under 1% ADL we already have more than 11% of the analysed pictures, which is more than between 20% and 100% ADL all combined together!

We have 80% of all movie pictures below 13% ADL luminance and 50% of all pictures below EVEN 5% ADL luminance."

Basically, most people are GROSSLY wrong in their assumptions about how bright a scene in a movie is. But please, continue to find a reason to keep this nonsense going about how contrast on DLP projectors isn't that bad or doesn't really apply to movies.

It is funny that back in the day Texas Instruments was saying that ANSI was important for power point and excel but not much for movies and that sequential was more important for video playback. This is when they were comparable to most of the digital display technology. Now they are extremely far behind in native contrast and put out that sequential is a lie and that ANSI represents more of what you see in day to day viewing. Like all marketing BS, the technology they DO NOT have is trivial or doesn't matter in the grand scheme until they have it. I was shaking my head at similar BS from a manufacturer a year or two ago when it came to the HDMI standard they supported and their slides that tried to justify the shortcoming by saying it doesn't matter. Now they advertise that they do and make a big deal of it.

DLP now has the same strengths it has had for years now; single DLP is extremely sharp, and DLP projectors can go really bright. This hasn't changed. There are TONS of business DLP projectors that people on these forums rave about because SO BRIGHT! But they also have the same limitations (actually, they've gotten worse, not better) poor blacks, poor contrast, RBE. For some this isn't an issue, for others it is. It's is just the same argument over and over and over again.
Exactly like how 4K doesn't matter until JVC has it?

Exactly like how E-Shift is just as good as 4K anyways?

Exactly like how Contrast is King, who cares about 4K, and then it's all about 4K and a little lost contrast doesn't matter?
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post #77 of 820 Old 02-25-2019, 03:59 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Exactly like how 4K doesn't matter until JVC has it?

Exactly like how E-Shift is just as good as 4K anyways?

Exactly like how Contrast is King, who cares about 4K, and then it's all about 4K and a little lost contrast doesn't matter?
In this forum ANSI contrast was making a major comeback in importance for a few weeks when strong rumor had it the nx9 was going to have extremely high ANSI contrast. Unfortunately when that rumor turned out false, ANSI contrast immediately lost importance again. Oh well
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Last edited by Ruined; 02-25-2019 at 04:02 AM.
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post #78 of 820 Old 02-26-2019, 09:24 AM
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Has anyone seen the new JVC N/RS series and BenQ 9060 side by side or at least seen both and can discuss the differences they saw.

What did you like about both and what you didn't like about both?

Thank you in advance.

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post #79 of 820 Old 02-26-2019, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Exactly like how 4K doesn't matter until JVC has it?

Exactly like how E-Shift is just as good as 4K anyways?

Exactly like how Contrast is King, who cares about 4K, and then it's all about 4K and a little lost contrast doesn't matter?
It was more like E-shift with a good lens vs native 4K with a so so lens, was close, but still slight advantage to native 4K. A little bigger gap with native 4K with a good lens. Contrast is contrast. More is always better. If I had a choice of native 4K of this years JVC's with last year's JVC native contrast, I would take that in a heartbeat. But with this years projectors, we have to take a little bit of compromise on contrast to get the rest of the advantages of the new JVC's. I have an RS640 and it still throws a great image, even when competing against native 4K projectors. Still the projector that everyone is wanting is native 4K (8K), laser, high lumens, high native contrast and under 10K. Until that is available, we all have to compromise and pick our poison.
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post #80 of 820 Old 02-26-2019, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
In this forum ANSI contrast was making a major comeback in importance for a few weeks when strong rumor had it the nx9 was going to have extremely high ANSI contrast. Unfortunately when that rumor turned out false, ANSI contrast immediately lost importance again. Oh well
All I was told was higher and that was all that I ever reported. You will not find a single post from me touting 50% improvement. Even when it was reported higher, I agreed with others that it really did not make a lot of difference, but I am always happy with an improvement in one area of performance or another. Just like native going from 120,000:1 to 130,000:1 makes absolutely no difference in the image, I am happy to see an improvement. Same goes for a 5% to 10% increase in lumens. No difference in the overall image, but at least headed in the direction we want to go. Forward is much better than standing still. That is because if you get little improvements like that every year, then a two or three year model difference can provide a nice image improvement.
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post #81 of 820 Old 02-27-2019, 12:15 AM
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I would have thought that manufacturers wouldn’t want shipping costs and labor costs to eat into their profits.... not sure why they wouldn’t invest in the tech to let users update via usb...weird


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The new low cost W2700/HT3550 has USB for firmware updates.

Guess it will be the same for all new BenQ projectors?
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post #82 of 820 Old 02-27-2019, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
It was more like E-shift with a good lens vs native 4K with a so so lens, was close, but still slight advantage to native 4K. A little bigger gap with native 4K with a good lens. Contrast is contrast. More is always better. If I had a choice of native 4K of this years JVC's with last year's JVC native contrast, I would take that in a heartbeat. But with this years projectors, we have to take a little bit of compromise on contrast to get the rest of the advantages of the new JVC's. I have an RS640 and it still throws a great image, even when competing against native 4K projectors. Still the projector that everyone is wanting is native 4K (8K), laser, high lumens, high native contrast and under 10K. Until that is available, we all have to compromise and pick our poison.
All true. Except it's not the point... These forums are heavily biased against the Sonys... doesn't matter what sony have, it'll never be good enough until JVC has it...
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post #83 of 820 Old 02-27-2019, 12:54 AM
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All true. Except it's not the point... These forums are heavily biased against the Sonys... doesn't matter what sony have, it'll never be good enough until JVC has it...
That's been true for a while but it wasn't always the case, folks did rave about the Rubys back in the day. Ancient history now.

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post #84 of 820 Old 02-27-2019, 01:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreyM View Post
That's been true for a while but it wasn't always the case, folks did rave about the Rubys back in the day. Ancient history now.
haha... i am not that ancient... i guess it was before my time...

Nowadays, one must be vigilant and take every comparison between sony/jvc with a grain of salt...
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post #85 of 820 Old 02-27-2019, 01:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreyM View Post
That's been true for a while but it wasn't always the case, folks did rave about the Rubys back in the day. Ancient history now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
haha... i am not that ancient... i guess it was before my time...



Nowadays, one must be vigilant and take every comparison between sony/jvc with a grain of salt...


OMG, if you think the Sony Ruby era was ancient, what does that make me if I started in the mid 90’s with a Panasonic 3 tube CRT 480i Projector?!?!?!
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post #86 of 820 Old 02-27-2019, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Exactly like how 4K doesn't matter until JVC has it?

Exactly like how E-Shift is just as good as 4K anyways?

Exactly like how Contrast is King, who cares about 4K, and then it's all about 4K and a little lost contrast doesn't matter?
The problem is it TOTALLY depends on someone's setup. I mean 4k really doesn't matter for some people, they are too far back on too small of a screen, or maybe they just don't notice or have questionable vision.

For those of us with big screens, and especially when we zoom 2.35 in to get rid of the bars, 4k is just as good as going from 720p to 1080p, there is an inherent difference in sharpness.
I don't even own a 4k projector, but I know that just by zooming, just zoom until the picture is smaller and looks sharper. If it looks noticeably sharper after you zoom down and refocus, then you need 4k, it really is that simple. The problem is so many movies are pseudo 4k, not all, but a lot. The good ones are often expensive, for me personally I'm still hoping this stuff becomes more mainstream so I don't have to buy a bunch of movies in 4k, but I'm sure streaming 4k is pretty good. I have watched quite a bit of 4k on a TV, but I'm really not comfortable enough to sit close enough for it to really matter all that much, it helps slightly at my seating distance on some content.

E-shift isn't as good as 4k, never was, never will be, it was maybe halfway there IMO, but I only saw it at a dealer, don't own an e-shift JVC.'

The problem with this forum is all the 'blanket' statements. If you are sitting 8' from a 140" screen (and believe me, some are), you are right e-shift 4k will not look as good as native 4k, it won't even be that close. Now, if you are sitting 12' from a 100" screen, you probably couldn't even pick out the difference in a double blind test.

To some of us, contrast really is very important.
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post #87 of 820 Old 02-27-2019, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
OMG, if you think the Sony Ruby era was ancient, what does that make me if I started in the mid 90’s with a Panasonic 3 tube CRT 480i Projector?!?!?!
HaHa! Got you beat, Started in 1980/81 with Sony 3 tube coffee table projecting on 50" molded plastic frame with grey screen.
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post #88 of 820 Old 02-27-2019, 06:55 AM
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If you are sitting 8' from a 140" screen (and believe me, some are), you are right e-shift 4k will not look as good as native 4k, it won't even be that close.
Yep, I'm this guy. I sit 7' from a 135" screen just so I can benefit from the 4K projector I have.

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post #89 of 820 Old 02-27-2019, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by CoreyM View Post
That's been true for a while but it wasn't always the case, folks did rave about the Rubys back in the day. Ancient history now.
I bought my Sony HW55ES based on feedback and research on this forum. I just replaced it with an RS2000, but Sony was still in the running. I think each respective brand thread is definitely biased (obviously) but there is plenty of good info to make a decision.
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post #90 of 820 Old 02-27-2019, 07:16 AM
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I've not got that beat, but my first 'home cinema' experience was '77 or '78 when my Dad got me a 3 minute Super 8mm reel of Star Wars highlights, and I projected that onto a small white cardboard 'screen' in my bedroom. The projector didn't have sound, but I had bought a double LP called The Story of Star Wars, and took the relevant audio from that and put it onto a cassette tape and played that back along with the movie. Because of that, some of those scenes are very nostalgic for me - like when Luke asks Obi Wan about his father.

With regard to fauK and 4K - even when sat 1.5x screen height back, it's very hard to tell the difference when comparing the two in split screen with movie content. With static images it's a bit easier, and with test patterns it's far more obvious, but I'd rather have a fauK laser projector than a native 4k lamp projector from what I've seen to be honest.
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Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.
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