The BENQ HT9060 & LK990 In-Depth Reviews & Comparison Thread - Page 32 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #931 of 1662 Old 05-23-2019, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
Err BenQ HT9060 / HLD LED? 1700 calibrated lumens at 20000hr life is no slouch

I think something as bright as say a benq lk990 with the color accuracy and gamut of the ht9060 is going to require RGB laser, though.
There's one. The question I suppose is why not multiple models for JVC, Sony, Epson? In other words, why haven't lamps been mostly replaced by now ?
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post #932 of 1662 Old 05-23-2019, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
There's one. The question I suppose is why not multiple models for JVC, Sony, Epson? In other words, why haven't lamps been mostly replaced by now ?
Because the three brands you mention have priced most of their users out of solid state models and are using solid state as a differentiating feature that they can rake in a high profit in - Canon does the same thing with their camera bodies, they purposely cripple cheaper models to entice people to spend more on more expensive models, even though the features removed from cheaper models cost very little to implement. If you are squarely in the LCD/LCOS camp you basically have little to no choice but lamp, and since that is the status quo from the three brands people accept it. Epson is the most aggressively priced but their solid state entry unfortunately doesn't hold up in sharpness or brightness vs direct competitors of same tech which makes it a tough sell for 4k HDR.

These BenQ HT9060/LK990 models are extremely disruptive with their solid state bang for buck. There is only one model because HLD LED wasn't ready to go until this year - the HT9060s predecessor was essentially a half finished product and IMO BenQ should not have released it as it only tarnished their reputation and did not sell well. Optoma has one in development also but BenQ is leading the pack with HLD LED.

Apparently there is a 0.47" version of HLD LED in the works (etendue needs tweaking from existing revision) so Id expect to see a HLD LED version of the HT5550 within the year.
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post #933 of 1662 Old 05-23-2019, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
This seems to be similar to what we have now. The BenQ isn't any brighter than most of the other projectors near this price point that use bulbs. Obviously the LEDs will last longer, but you also get to the argument that any light lost with a solid state light source will never come back vs a bulb swap. You can also get a wider gamut than the bulb without a filter, but when I measured the 9060 in wide gamut vs 709, I did lose about 10% light output, which is similar to what I lose with the JVC NX-9 (which also has a slightly wider gamut).
That is true. That's why - for myself anyway, I would always buy a laser / LED projector that was more than bright enough in a lower setting, to extend the hours to where it is not a concern. I personally prefer running a laser projector so it could get 40,000 hours to 1/2 brightness. If JVC were to come out with a 4500 lumen version of the RS4500, I'd hope it had 4 brightness settings. That way I could run it so I'd never worry about it dimming, for all practical purposes. I'm close to that with my current RS4500.

Buying a projector that needs to be run on high from the start to be bright enough, is like buying a car / truck that needs the gas pedal jammed to the floor to drive up a hill.
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post #934 of 1662 Old 05-23-2019, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
That is true. That's why - for myself anyway, I would always buy a laser / LED projector that was more than bright enough in a lower setting, to extend the hours to where it is not a concern. I personally prefer running a laser projector so it could get 40,000 hours to 1/2 brightness. If JVC were to come out with a 4500 lumen version of the RS4500, I'd hope it had 4 brightness settings. That way I could run it so I'd never worry about it dimming, for all practical purposes. I'm close to that with my current RS4500.

Buying a projector that needs to be run on high from the start to be bright enough, is like buying a car / truck that needs the gas pedal jammed to the floor to drive up a hill.
I read somewhere that hld led will not necessarily significantly dim over time but instead will just fail at some point after the 20000hrs. I don't recall the source for that though.

Again the beauty of the ht9060 is that since it's fairly affordable you can just use it guillt free and when it dies after many years you can just replace it without doing a cash out refi of your home . Most people for instance who have replaced 5 bulbs on their lamp projector by that point are ready for a new projector and their lamp projector is worthless because it's so old. So as long as you don't spend oodles of money on a solid state pj it's not an issue.
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post #935 of 1662 Old 05-23-2019, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
Because the three brands you mention have priced most of their users out of solid state models and are using solid state as a differentiating feature that they can rake in a high profit in - Canon does the same thing with their camera bodies, they purposely cripple cheaper models to entice people to spend more on more expensive models, even though the features removed from cheaper models cost very little to implement. If you are squarely in the LCD/LCOS camp you basically have little to no choice but lamp, and since that is the status quo from the three brands people accept it. Epson is the most aggressively priced but their solid state entry unfortunately doesn't hold up in sharpness or brightness vs direct competitors of same tech which makes it a tough sell for 4k HDR.

These BenQ HT9060/LK990 models are extremely disruptive with their solid state bang for buck. There is only one model because HLD LED wasn't ready to go until this year - the HT9060s predecessor was essentially a half finished product and IMO BenQ should not have released it as it only tarnished their reputation and did not sell well. Optoma has one in development also but BenQ is leading the pack with HLD LED.

Apparently there is a 0.47" version of HLD LED in the works (etendue needs tweaking from existing revision) so Id expect to see a HLD LED version of the HT5550 within the year.
They also cripple those models - in a different way. No power zoom / focus / lens shift. Makes a constant height screen using the zoom method difficult, if not impossible, for a lot of setups.
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post #936 of 1662 Old 05-23-2019, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
They also cripple those models - in a different way. No power zoom / focus / lens shift. Makes a constant height screen using the zoom method difficult, if not impossible, for a lot of setups.
Not really , because I don't believe benq has a better equivalent model with those features that they are trying to upsell to people. And the BenQs plus an anamorphic lens is still cheaper than the sony/jvc lasers using zoom method.

When I refer to Canon crippling I mean they will remove a feature that maybe costs less than $1 to implement and only make it available in a model that costs $2000 more. So there it really is crippling because they have the tech in other models and are stripping the cheaper models of features that cost close to nothing to implement solely to compel the buyer to go for a more expensive model. And this is similar to what Sony is doing , because there is no way in the world their 4k laser should cost as much more than it does than the lamp projector that sits just under it. You can buy several entire dlp laser projectors just for the price difference between the Sony lamp and laser.
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post #937 of 1662 Old 05-23-2019, 10:21 AM
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Not really , because I don't believe benq has a better equivalent model with those features that they are trying to upsell to people.

When I refer to Canon crippling I mean they will remove a feature that maybe costs less than $1 to implement and only make it available in a model that costs $2000 more. So there it really is crippling because they have the tech in other models and are stripping the cheaper models of features that cost close to nothing to implement solely to compel the buyer to go for a more expensive model. And this is similar to what Sony is doing , because there is no way in the world their 4k laser should cost as much more than it does than the lamp projector that sits just under it. You can buy several entire dlp laser projectors just for the price difference between the Sony lamp and laser.
It's like a lot of things in life - if you want it, you need to pay. No wine should be worth $20K for one bottle. And yet there are plenty that sell for that -

https://www.barrons.com/articles/why...000-1427964771

Makes my RS4500 look like a downright steal for nearly the same price as a bottle of wine. And that wine sells out.

With no powered lens functions, unfortunately these are totally useless for me. Even if they were free.
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post #938 of 1662 Old 05-23-2019, 10:27 AM
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It's like a lot of things in life - if you want it, you need to pay. No wine should be worth $20K for one bottle. And yet there are plenty that sell for that -

https://www.barrons.com/articles/why...000-1427964771

Makes my RS4500 look like a downright steal for nearly the same price as a bottle of wine. And that wine sells out.

With no powered lens functions, unfortunately these are totally useless for me. Even if they were free.
I understand though your multiscreen setup is definitely an ultra niche setup. Most people have 1 screen, either 16:9 or scope.

BenQs approach makes sense for DLP, as due to the elevated black floor of DLP using an anamorphic lens is a far superior choice for scope to avoid light spill over screen edges. For LCOS I can see how the zoom method makes sense and how for your niche setup motorized lens is crucial - but for a DLP projector with a single screen BenQ got it right, and I'd imagine single screen is 99.9% of the market.

The $20k wine is actually an excellent analogy, a luxury product with an inflated luxury price. JVC/Sony are treating laser as a luxury feature for high profit expensive products. DLP manufs are instead treating solid state as an incremental feature most enthusiasts can afford without the price gouging attached to "luxury" products.

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post #939 of 1662 Old 05-23-2019, 03:14 PM
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Is everyone ready for summer? It's 6:00PM here in the Northeast U.S. and less than 24 hours to go for the big weekend. Woohooo!!!

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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
No RBE at all with the 9060 or the 9050 (the first 9050 they send me had severe RBE, but they said it was a bad unit).
Right, I haven't seen it on the 9060 either.

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JVC has some LED units in their simulation offerings now, so you never know if they may go down that route. The only problem I've had with LED based projectors is the buzzing.
I have a bias for projectors that don't call attention to themselves with noise.
I have mine about two feet away and I don't hear buzzing even when the surroundings are quiet. If I go right up to it, I hear some buzzing but only when it's putting out a very bright scene.

By the way, you don't really have a bias for projectors that don't call attention to themselves, do you? We've both had e-shift JVCs and loved them, but remember how some of them hummed when we turned on our e-shift?

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LED home theater projectors debuted quite a while ago, and then never really went anywhere. It seemed like they weren't very bright. it would be nice to see more brighter LED projectors offered.
That's the old straight up phat LED, not the HLD Colorspark in the HT9060, which is still a relatively new LED.

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There's one. The question I suppose is why not multiple models for JVC, Sony, Epson? In other words, why haven't lamps been mostly replaced by now ?
If people continue with this narrative that lamps are still state of the art tech, then there's really no reason for the manufacturers to focus full attention on changing. Then again, if I can indirectly tell BenQ their black levels are good enough for me at about 5,000:1, you can indirectly tell JVC to stick with lamps. I get it... what's good for the goose... But what you get overall with this projector, image-wise, great lens and all, is a really good value. It's no secret what the ridiculously low street price ranges of these two projectors are, especially given they don't use lamps.

Why is there all this talk about lamps in a non lamp-based projector thread anyway?

Lamps flicker. The picture coming from lamps has an unsteadiness to it. You also have the hassle of continual short-term re-calibration as the lamp ages, not to mention the cost and the hassle of having to replace them. Also, you can go full on and full off in seconds with solid state. It takes about all of five seconds for the HT9060 to go full off.
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post #940 of 1662 Old 05-23-2019, 03:22 PM
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I understand though your multiscreen setup is definitely an ultra niche setup. Most people have 1 screen, either 16:9 or scope.

BenQs approach makes sense for DLP, as due to the elevated black floor of DLP using an anamorphic lens is a far superior choice for scope to avoid light spill over screen edges. For LCOS I can see how the zoom method makes sense and how for your niche setup motorized lens is crucial - but for a DLP projector with a single screen BenQ got it right, and I'd imagine single screen is 99.9% of the market.

The $20k wine is actually an excellent analogy, a luxury product with an inflated luxury price. JVC/Sony are treating laser as a luxury feature for high profit expensive products. DLP manufs are instead treating solid state as an incremental feature most enthusiasts can afford without the price gouging attached to "luxury" products.

All right, Ruined. You got my attention. I think this is the best post you ever made.
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post #941 of 1662 Old 05-23-2019, 03:25 PM
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By the way, you don't really have a bias for projectors that don't call attention to themselves, do you? We've both had e-shift JVCs and loved them, but remember how some of them hummed when we turned on our e-shift?
The only time I EVER heard eShift was with a 60p input with absolutely NO audio on in the room at all. And to say that is rare in my room would be an understatement.

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Lamps flicker. The picture coming from lamps has an unsteadiness to it. You also have the hassle of continual short-term re-calibration as the lamp ages, not to mention the cost and the hassle of having to replace them. Also, you can go full on and full off in seconds with solid state. It takes about all of five seconds for the HT9060 to go full off.
Only time I see flicker from the latest batch of JVC lamps is with test patterns that are near nyquist. I don't see any unstableness at all with regular playback of content. Calibration is just as much of an issue with laser/LED as it is with lamp from what I've seen, other than you probably don't have to wait as long for the initial calibration with a solid state DLP. But every solid state device I've calibrated has drifted over time, needing another calibration. The idea of one calibration for the life of the product seems to be a pipe dream at this point.

The 9060 does not turn on in seconds either. In fact, one of my big complaints with the BenQ design is that when you push the power button there is ZERO feedback for like 5-10 seconds. To the point that I don't even know if it responded. Then it starts to turn on. I could care less how long something takes to turn off unless you are talking about minutes. I hit off, I see it is powering off, so therefore I am done. I wouldn't be power cycling on and off with a projector regardless of the light source, just like I don't with my TV.

I'm all for solid state in the long run, but so far there is very little it has done for me in the overall sense of image quality. JVC is the only one that does dynamic dimming well so far, with the Sony a bit distant second. The 9060's dimming is not a strong selling point, other than it helps get the ridiculously awful black level to a slightly less awful level. I wish JVC would have done a dual aperture for the RS4500 and a Mode 3 that is not quite as aggressive as Mode 2 but not as reserved as Mode 1. Sony needs to add an iris that you can actually adjust to their laser models and work on a better dimming solution.

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post #942 of 1662 Old 05-23-2019, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

I'm all for solid state in the long run, but so far there is very little it has done for me in the overall sense of image quality. JVC is the only one that does dynamic dimming well so far, with the Sony a bit distant second. The 9060's dimming is not a strong selling point, other than it helps get the ridiculously awful black level to a slightly less awful level. I wish JVC would have done a dual aperture for the RS4500 and a Mode 3 that is not quite as aggressive as Mode 2 but not as reserved as Mode 1. Sony needs to add an iris that you can actually adjust to their laser models and work on a better dimming solution.
I think that's already in their suggestion box. If not, it should be.
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post #943 of 1662 Old 05-23-2019, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
It's like a lot of things in life - if you want it, you need to pay.
I know you're on our side, but if we all made statements like that, the manufacturers would less inclined to lower their laser projector prices for we consumers.
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post #944 of 1662 Old 05-23-2019, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
The only time I EVER heard eShift was with a 60p input with absolutely NO audio on in the room at all. And to say that is rare in my room would be an understatement.



Only time I see flicker from the latest batch of JVC lamps is with test patterns that are near nyquist. I don't see any unstableness at all with regular playback of content. Calibration is just as much of an issue with laser/LED as it is with lamp from what I've seen, other than you probably don't have to wait as long for the initial calibration with a solid state DLP. But every solid state device I've calibrated has drifted over time, needing another calibration. The idea of one calibration for the life of the product seems to be a pipe dream at this point.

The 9060 does not turn on in seconds either. In fact, one of my big complaints with the BenQ design is that when you push the power button there is ZERO feedback for like 5-10 seconds. To the point that I don't even know if it responded. Then it starts to turn on. I could care less how long something takes to turn off unless you are talking about minutes. I hit off, I see it is powering off, so therefore I am done. I wouldn't be power cycling on and off with a projector regardless of the light source, just like I don't with my TV.

I'm all for solid state in the long run, but so far there is very little it has done for me in the overall sense of image quality. JVC is the only one that does dynamic dimming well so far, with the Sony a bit distant second. The 9060's dimming is not a strong selling point, other than it helps get the ridiculously awful black level to a slightly less awful level. I wish JVC would have done a dual aperture for the RS4500 and a Mode 3 that is not quite as aggressive as Mode 2 but not as reserved as Mode 1. Sony needs to add an iris that you can actually adjust to their laser models and work on a better dimming solution.
Interesting. Thanks for your thoughts.

On the power off point, I would still suppose, though, the short shut off time would mean that if there's a power outage, the LED machine would have less risk of heat damage.
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post #945 of 1662 Old 05-23-2019, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
I know you're on our side, but if we all made statements like that, the manufacturers would less inclined to lower their laser projector prices for we consumers.
It has to make the companies that make them money to be worth even making them to begin with. There aren't enough people buying home theater projectors. I think most companies would rather build TV's for the 99% that just buy a flat panel at Walmart. From where I sit, not much has really changed in 17 years. Glaciers move faster than the home theater industry.

If BenQ built an HT9060 with full powered lens features and manual iris, I wonder how much that would add to the cost ?
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post #946 of 1662 Old 05-23-2019, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
It has to make the companies that make them money to be worth even making them to begin with. There aren't enough people buying home theater projectors. I think most companies would rather build TV's for the 99% that just buy a flat panel at Walmart. From where I sit, not much has really changed in 17 years. Glaciers move faster than the home theater industry.

If BenQ built an HT9060 with full powered lens features and manual iris, I wonder how much that would add to the cost ?
Of course, you're right about the powered features. I think that's a decent part of the cost savings. However, I also think that people going into these DLPs mostly know what they're getting in terms of those features. The funny thing is that I demo'd the 9050 and couldn't bear its black levels, but this 9060 I found to be different and enough so where not having the auto lens focus, zoom, etc., didn't matter. I don't need lens zoom anyway, by the way.

Well, anyway, you've got that lovely 4500 and I still think you're a rock star. I'm just waiting for you to invite me over for some wine tasting, and then maybe you'll tell me what you know about that RGB Christie there.
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post #947 of 1662 Old 05-23-2019, 07:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
........be thankful for the more affordable BenQ laser models, I bet the 970/990 would give this expensive projector a hard run for it's money at a fraction of the price.

I am thankful and I bet they beat it actually.

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Dave, did you ever send Kris the settings you wanted him to try on the 970?

Dang it, not yet. When I finally had time I was on a research binge to find the info from the Optoma and Vivitek guys.

Not sure I’ll have time today either. It’s my anniversary so as soon as I’m home from work it’s time to get ready to go out and overspend at some restaurant.

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I wish you wouldn't say I was mocking you, because I wasn't. Unless we were both knee deep in a stupid escalated argument, but the formation of those discussions would have always stemmed from legitimate questions to you which were answered subjectively without any way to quantify your comments, which is not really helpful to my brain I hope you can please understand this. I dont want to be told how things work, I need to know HOW, so, there needs to be much more deep diving, analysis, measurements etc. I am sorry but I cannot just join the huraah! train, I need to look in depth at things. Call it a curse..........
Then consult the engineers that I mentioned.

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...........Regarding your magic settings, they still dont add up, I've seen your settings posts both for the 970 and 990 in the past, there is honestly nothing particularly tricky about them, and I dont get how it would have changed anything for the truly better. Remember I spent a good amount of hours with the LK, and that did involve going through the menu and quite literally using every slider to its min and max setting to see what it does. You dont agree, but the very best HDR image I saw from it, including testing the real HDR mode, was from HDR to SDR dynamic tone mapping with MadVR..........
That’s my whole point. They aren’t magic. They just stem from knowing what I was told by the engineer(s) and what to do with them when using and setting them up for HDR.

So how was “the very best HDR image you saw” coming from HDR to SDR Tone mapping? (Don’t answer that because I know what you’re going to say).

Why is it so hard to believe that maybe these particular projectors and the way they’re engineered (for an actual HDR signal) with high brightness RGBY laser phosphor, Brilliant Color, XPR, SmartEco, Automatic Power Control, etc. work better overall when sending the true HDR signal?

You didn’t use them with the UB820 sliders did you?


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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
.......Darin and Dylan are two different people, I dont think Darin has had either projectors unless I am missing something. Dylan (Seegs) had a look at a 990 and you guys had it out over his findings because he didnt like it. He went back and looked again, still did not really dig it, and you had it out with him again...
Oh yes sorry I confused and merged the two. My apologies to them both.


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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
.......None of this changes the fact that its super devoid of colour volume with BR (You mean BC, Brilliant Color? -DH) on though, and this is my issue with the feature (does this issue exist on the 970? I see Kris did not mention it, I feel like he would have).

Which colour wheel does the 970 have again? Sounds like its different hence doesn't quite have this problem? Or does it?

You are seeing the same luminance deficiency obviously when you calibrate it yeah? You must be because its mentioned in your posts. Which is why I am happy you shared them with me as I have corroboration from multiple people on it now, not just that, we now know exactly why that happens. So I am happy that this is further clarified. This is really what I wanted from you when we started talking about it a few weeks ago. Anyway, glad you shared it anyway. Whats more, Darins excellent explanation seems to solidify and confirm the inherent issues I see with it on a hardware level, that is, you cannot balance the colours unless you pull back on white and whatever colour to be in line with the deficient colours........
I think the way it’s engineered overcomes this somehow in the BC process when combined with the yellow rather than white segment/phosphor, as found in other DLPs.

I do see a deficiency in measurements and as you said, I mentioned that awhile ago. My point is that there’s a reason for that and they’ve accounted for it when viewing real world HDR BT2020 content because the image I see does not look devoid of any color attribute whatsoever and is in fact one of these models’ strengths, just as the product manager and engineer told me it would be! The colors are crazy good when I watch movies like GotG2, Black Panther, Mortal Engines, et al.

I bet if you stopped doing HDR to SDR Tone Mapping (but kept dynamic luminance) and fed pure HDR to it using MadVR and then employed some of the same techniques I do with the UB820 and follow the engineers’ suggestions as I do (as hard as that may be to your OCD like it was for me!), then that would make it sing like a canary in heat!!!


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.........I want to leave your settings out of this part though (Brilliant Colour), unless you are of the opinion that your strict combination of settings somehow makes the calibration pass? I am seeing huge deltaE errors with Brilliant Colour on, consistently way over dE10. Are you not still stuck with colour volume issues with Brilliant Colour on? I cant see how you can work around that without artificially pumping the colours up. And Stangers pictures actually perfectly showed what I saw with the oddness to the colour. Even you would need another projector there at the same time to see where its strange, in isolation, it might not look like it.

Ruined above even mentions that its likely a lot of what you are seeing, and liking, is sheer overall brightness in HDR, rather than anything else, and I tend to agree with him, imagine if you were actually looking at the correct colour volume to go with it. Its a really great trick to get raw brightness mostly visible, but I am not sure it belongs in an HT projector.

I know exactly the look you’re talking about when it’s set that way and BC with HDR isn’t optimized. What I see after I am done is far from and not that at all! It’s one of the most natural and realistic colors and images I’ve seen here, and that says a lot. Literally mesmerizing.


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95fl though?

Did you know thats over 300 nits?

Did you know that only a handful of large TV's will even display that level of brightness full field? They run into MAXFALL close to that point. generally accepted as 400nits. But Ive seen that number vary quite a lot...

Which its cool, Im sorry but you really dont need that level of brightess, you dont even need 75 nits. Its nice on a TV since they are perceptually small. But that level of brightness on a huge screen is actually not a comfortable experience for more than a little while.

In the time I had the LK here, I actually preferred about 180 nits (50fl). Much over that and it wasn't actually pleasant so much. I could live with 50, I can absolutely live with 30fl too. Its ALL in the tone mapping.

Its funny Ruined mentions aggressive tone mapping, which is more aggressive, one which puts a full time 5x compression on the source all the time, or one that chooses when to compress only IF it even needs to compress in the first place? Measuring your settings against an EOTF will show you interesting things. I would still love it if you did that, we might even be able to help you to tweak it better. I have spend enough months looking at EOTF graphs from the Arve Tool that I can do it in my sleep and not even need to see the image to know what it would 'look' like.


I’m not sure I agree, because as everyone says the extra brightness is more for specular highlights and headroom anyway, so the APL is close to the same for most of the content, which is what you say all the time, right?

I have measured my settings to an EOTF a multitude of times. Every time I do another iteration of them. I have no idea why you’d think I haven’t? Do you seriously believe I am that ignorant, the way you talk to me?



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It's mainly because people have to compromise either due to cost (not in this case but sometimes), throw distance, or because of lumens capability.



However, when it comes to TV's, the arguments aren't nearly as convoluted, the cheaper ones have bad contrast and very few people will argue that you mise well just buy a cheap one.


Unlike the DLP arguments. I'm sure there are a couple of people pushing for that Westinghouse over the Sony, but I've never seen it.

If you’re trying to insinuate that these BenQ LKs are the Westinghouse equivalent compared to Sony projectors, you’re very sorely mistaken! I would put my LK990 against any lamp based Sony and even chose them over the VW885ES overall! This is coming from someone that was a Sony (and 3 panel LCD/LCoS/SXRD lover) champion not long ago.
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And I would put up a Westinghouse TV up against the Benq projector, sorry couldn't help myself.

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And I would put up a Westinghouse TV up against the Benq projector, sorry couldn't help myself.

How about against your 50 lumen broken DLP?
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And I would put up a Westinghouse TV up against the Benq projector, sorry couldn't help myself.
Don't go bragging about your primary home theater display now
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OK Team.

9060 vs Epson 5050ub
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OK Team.

9060 vs Epson 5050ub
9060 will actually look good for more than 500hr on your size screen . 1700 calibrated lumens in p3 + HK effect + long lasting LEDs = perceptual brightness u need. Sharpness there will be no comparison at all, only the 9060 will do 4k justice. 5050 better native contrast but the 9060 dynamic contrast dimming is quite good.

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OK Team.

9060 vs Epson 5050ub
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
9060 will actually look good for more than 500hr on your size screen . 1700 calibrated lumens in p3 + HK effect + long lasting LEDs = perceptual brightness u need. Sharpness there will be no comparison at all, only the 9060 will do 4k justice. 5050 better native contrast but the 9060 dynamic contrast dimming is quite good.
Lamps for the 5050 are cheap, so I would not worry about LED vs lamp. Also the cost of the 5050 is much cheaper, so could buy a replacement projector much sooner. There are certainly advantages to the 9060, but just because one is lamp and the other is LED, I would not let that sway me one way or another, between these two.

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Lamps for the 5050 are cheap, so I would not worry about LED vs lamp. Also the cost of the 5050 is much cheaper, so could buy a replacement projector much sooner. There are certainly advantages to the 9060, but just because one is lamp and the other is LED, I would not let that sway me one way or another.
You should PM @Aztar35 and ask him how much his HT9060 cost
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You should PM @Aztar35 and ask him how much his HT9060 cost

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You don’t think we know what they cost? I have the dealer cost right here.


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You don’t think we know what they cost? I have the dealer cost right here.
Would not be surprised if below that
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Would not be surprised if below that
I would be surprised if he got it below dealer direct cost, but even if he did, why should people contact him to ask what he paid, because not everybody would be able to get that deal. Would just make them feel bad. Unless be bought a B-stock?
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So how was “the very best HDR image you saw” coming from HDR to SDR Tone mapping? (Don’t answer that because I know what you’re going to say).

Why is it so hard to believe that maybe these particular projectors and the way they’re engineered (for an actual HDR signal) with high brightness RGBY laser phosphor, Brilliant Color, XPR, SmartEco, Automatic Power Control, etc. work better overall when sending the true HDR signal?
This comment makes me think you don't understand how the tone mapping in the players work compared to what you are doing.

The LK970 is NOT a HDR projector. Using your settings results in a static tone map that you are then overlaying the Panasonic tone mapping over and assuming that what you setup is what the baseline for the Panasonic wants. The 970 is also NOT a projector that can even do 709 color properly, let alone 2020. So the incoming 2020 signal is only going to be clipped at what the projector can do for gamut. There is no workaround for this, you don't come up with magical color. The Panasonic can already use the matrix that is established for converting 2020 to 709 properly, so why not use it?

By outputting SDR709 with the HDR Optimizer ON in the Panasonic, you are still getting the HDR signal that is now tone mapped down to about a 300 nit APL. You then adjust the range of APL using the slider, just like if you send out HDR. But now you can calibrate the projector to a proper baseline so that you KNOW you are setup the way the Panasonic wants it to be for the overlay.

I just spent the last hour looking at the settings that you suggest for the 970 (Harpervision) vs just doing SDR709 out of the Panasonic with content that is REALLY easy for tone mapping (nature footage from the upcoming S&M 4K HDR Test Disc). Immediately it is quite obvious that colors are not natural with your settings. Greens look neon and lean toward yellow and the image has a washed out appearance. The Panasonic SDR709 output looks far more natural not only for gamma balance but also color rendition. This is especially noticeable in yellows, browns and greens. And this doesn't require any special boxes placed in between the projector and the player to get it to work, just simply select SDR709 and the Optimizer to ON. Simple baseline calibration and much better results that are very simple to see.

Dave:



Panasonic:



Dave:



Panasonic:



Dave:



Panasonic:



I don't have a fancy camera so I just used my iPhone X. The difference in person is actually even more pronounced than you see in these images, especially in greens.
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Quote:
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Lamps for the 5050 are cheap, so I would not worry about LED vs lamp. Also the cost of the 5050 is much cheaper, so could buy a replacement projector much sooner. There are certainly advantages to the 9060, but just because one is lamp and the other is LED, I would not let that sway me one way or another, between these two.
I wouldn't call $300/pop cheap, and the lamps will dim considerably before their nominal lifetime, so you'd need a lamp every ~1000hrs or so, because you'll probably need to run it on high mode. Calibration will drift constantly through each lamp's life.

The research paper I linked to earlier in the thread, showed only ~5% output loss from colorspark LEDs after 12000hrs (12Khrs) in a very tortuous run cycle.

If you want to use the expanded color gamut the HC5050UB only puts out ~1000 lumens in high lamp mode:

https://www.projectorcentral.com/Eps...,-Measurements

and maybe ~700 after a 1000 hrs.
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