The BENQ HT9060 & LK990 In-Depth Reviews & Comparison Thread - Page 63 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1861 of 1883 Old 07-12-2019, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by DoctorCyclops View Post
Agree. This is next level performance. Thanks for the SDR settings, going to try them this weekend!
Hi, Doc.

I know you have the Panny player. So here's something real easy you could try if you want a little better tone mapping. Set the Panasonic player to SDR BT709, optimizer on with the dynamic slider up three notches.

Go into the HT9060 and set it to the Cinema picture mode but first reset the picture mode to get to the factory color settings. Then set brightness to 50, contrast to 46, and color to 42, sharpness to 6, and pixel enhance to 1. Set gamma to 2.3. Color temp to Normal with Red gain 98, Green gain 99, rest of RGB there at default.

Turn on Smarteco.

Captain Marvel looked amazing!!
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post #1862 of 1883 Old 07-12-2019, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
I'm guessing there are different reasons for it. One could be Chromatic Aberration. I know with my Runco LS-5, I see CA and it's lens is what I still would call good. But I see none, or virtually no CA with this BenQ lens; do you?
You have a good sample obviously.

The BenQ 990 I had here had CA on the lens, and poor focus edge to edge on its focal plane. In short throw anyway... The few images I did share against my X9500 you could clearly see bleeding from the lens in text where there would be discoloration, it looked poor compared to the lens in my JVC. In the very center though, it looked good when focus was achieved.

Also, Sonys have historically horrible uniformity and CA manifesting in multiple ways, it has been getting better though, I am surprised you are putting that down to just DLP, it is actually the product itself.

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post #1863 of 1883 Old 07-12-2019, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Also, Sonys have historically horrible uniformity and CA manifesting in multiple ways, it has been getting better though, I am surprised you are putting that down to just DLP, it is actually the product itself.
I'm not sure what you meant by that one...?

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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
You have a good sample obviously.

The BenQ 990 I had here had CA on the lens, and poor focus edge to edge on its focal plane. In short throw anyway... The few images I did share against my X9500 you could clearly see bleeding from the lens in text where there would be discoloration, it looked poor compared to the lens in my JVC. In the very center though, it looked good when focus was achieved.
Remember we had those photo comparisons between your X9500's and my JVC X990's lenses? The lenses seemed comparable. Well, I can tell you that the lens on my JVC X990 would have been no match for the lens in this BenQ. The X990 had some de-focusing along outer portions and some CA. Also, there was some slight brightness fade at the edges.

I wonder how some other LK owners are seeing their lenses in that regard. I know your LK sample was around the block a bit; maybe that's part of it?
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post #1864 of 1883 Old 07-12-2019, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
I'm not sure what you meant by that one...?
A fair amount of what you are saying is not just down to lenses, its also how the panels are placed and orientated is what I am saying, the Sony's are bad for this historically. They are only just getting better.

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Remember we had those photo comparisons between your X9500's and my JVC X990's lenses? The lenses seemed comparable. Well, I can tell you that the lens on my JVC X990 would have been no match for the lens in this BenQ. The X990 had some de-focusing along outer portions and some CA. Also, there was some slight brightness fade at the edges.

I wonder how some other LK owners are seeing their lenses in that regard. I know your LK sample was around the block a bit; maybe that's part of it?
Cross continental photos are very difficult to compare... So you couldn't say one way or the other there... Remember the pixel gap on the JVC's is minuscule compared to a DLP, the wire grid and the amount of inter-pixel gap I saw definitely would attribute towards the impression of a sharper lens.

My BenQ only had 30 hours on the machine when I got it, so, it got sent up-state once, and then back again... Sure, that could be enough to knock it, but I thought these were more difficult to 'knock' around due to single panel?

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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
The X990 had some de-focusing along outer portions and some CA. Also, there was some slight brightness fade at the edges.
Aside from panel alignment which is quite good when warm, I dont see any CA at all on my JVC. And my edge to edge sharpness is excellent over about 80% of the lens, only the very far right side of my 9500 starts to defocus.

Here check it out.

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post #1865 of 1883 Old 07-12-2019, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Here check it out.

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The photo taken using your JVC X9500 actually looks sharper overall than the photo taken using your BenQ LK990.
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post #1866 of 1883 Old 07-12-2019, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
The photo taken using your JVC X9500 actually looks sharper overall than the photo taken using your BenQ LK990.
There was definitely more detail on the LK990, I could see it pretty clearly in certain instances. Limitations of eshift and all...

I guess the lens on the 990 I had though was not a good one ... I dunno.

I meant to write look at the text at the bottom of the image when I posted those, but I forgot.

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post #1867 of 1883 Old 07-13-2019, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
There was definitely more detail on the LK990, I could see it pretty clearly in certain instances. Limitations of eshift and all...

I guess the lens on the 990 I had though was not a good one ... I dunno.

I meant to write look at the text at the bottom of the image when I posted those, but I forgot.
It could also have been the shorter throw was not optimal for the LK990. I don't know either.

I'm guessing that scene from Lucy is less than 20% ADL. By the way, it appears both projectors handled the sequential contrast there quite well.

How did you find brightness uniformity between the two projectors? I understand your LK may have had an issue with the lens, but did you find the LK990's performance excelled in the upper ADL range? Here's a still using my HT9060 taken from Jumanji:Welcome to the Jungle. It's a stand-alone photo of course taken with a different phone so don't use it for purposes of comparing sharpness; but it's a good study showing a mix of light and dark and how the HT9060 handles that scene.
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post #1868 of 1883 Old 07-13-2019, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
FYI, for those of you who wish to try using UHD content, I would set contrast to 48 and brightness to 49, gamma 2.4, sharpness 3, pixel enhance to 1, Smarteco on, color temp normal --blue gain to 106 --rest default, in color management: CYAN- hue 334, saturation 156, gain 267and use an external source like the Panny 820 set to c. 400 nits, soptimizer on, but check for MaxFALL/MaxCLL per content. Set the player to SDR rec 709 where you should then cal the LEDs to reach closer to DCI P3 while being fed 709, down from about 99% of P3 which I had with the HDR triggering the BT2020 container.
Is the following your revised settings of the above? Or are they for different purposes?

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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Hi, Doc.
I know you have the Panny player. So here's something real easy you could try if you want a little better tone mapping. Set the Panasonic player to SDR BT709, optimizer on with the dynamic slider up three notches.

Go into the HT9060 and set it to the Cinema picture mode but first reset the picture mode to get to the factory color settings. Then set brightness to 50, contrast to 46, and color to 42, sharpness to 6, and pixel enhance to 1. Set gamma to 2.3. Color temp to Normal with Red gain 98, Green gain 99, rest of RGB there at default.

Turn on Smarteco.

Captain Marvel looked amazing!!
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post #1869 of 1883 Old 07-13-2019, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
It could also have been the shorter throw was not optimal for the LK990. I don't know either.

I'm guessing that scene from Lucy is less than 20% ADL. By the way, it appears both projectors handled the sequential contrast there quite well.

How did you find brightness uniformity between the two projectors? I understand your LK may have had an issue with the lens, but did you find the LK990's performance excelled in the upper ADL range? Here's a still using my HT9060 taken from Jumanji:Welcome to the Jungle. It's a stand-alone photo of course taken with a different phone so don't use it for purposes of comparing sharpness; but it's a good study showing a mix of light and dark and how the HT9060 handles that scene.
Yeah its less than 20%. I think, would have to check again.

I gotta be honest with you, in my velvet tent, nothing was particularly standing out as supremely outperforming my X9500 even in terms of higher ADL contrast. Sure, it looked good, but I've never though the JVC looked bad either, even directly comparing the two in real time. Given my room can record over 450:1 ANSI in the actual middle point in the room, which probably only 5% of those with HT's can achieve, both machines always looked excellent in higher ADL scenes. I noticed the extra detail from the LK though for sure, it beats eshift hands down, no debate. But contrast always went hard to the JVC as a whole, since higher ADL to me was inconsequential and a wash, the lower ADL stuff was a joke when I compared them directly at the same time. In ISOLATION, the LK looks fine most all the time, its just when you put something else there do you realise how much deeper the black in some scenes is supposed to look.

So for me, it was good contrast all the time, vs good contrast some of the time and bad contrast some of the time. It could come down to viewing habits and what we watch too.

When I had the LK here is was during Season 8 of GOT, I tried but couldn get past literally 10 minutes in one of the episodes (not even the black big battle one, I think it was the ep before), and also any episodes of Star Trek on Netflix, literally had to go back to my JVC on both occasions despite having the best intentions to use the LK to get through the eps. The higher black floor was too bad for me.

In other content like MI:6 is looked great on the extended scenes I watched, didn't have any problem at all. Even Blade Runner 2049 looked great on the LK, but that whole movie actually has a raised black floor on purpose, so there is no actual black to 'miss'. Lucy looked great too.

But as I said again, all those films already looked great on my JVC too.

Not sure if you missed this previous post Aztar, but there are some quite close up portions of images I took of the LK and my JVC where you an clearly see the detail advantage the LK had over the JVC. One of them was also about as high ADL as you can get, total white background, and in person, there is no real difference to me in the contrast between the two machines. Unfortunately I didn't share the full sized images, because it was so hard to capture correct colour on the BenQ I threw in the towel on all the comparisons, it couldn't calibrate properly with brilliant colour on.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post58191598
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post #1870 of 1883 Old 07-13-2019, 10:57 PM
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You know what, I will share the images, because, looking at them all again, I think it very perfectly illustrates what you 'lose' when you have Brilliant Colour on. I never realised this initially, but knowing how brilliant colour actually works now, that is, the colour VOLUME is about half what it should be for the given white level, you can super clearly see the colour volume deficiencies here on the BenQ vs the JVC. This is by the way supposedly calibrated, with the only major, and I mean they are major, delta E errors being solely attributed to lack of colour luminance on the primaries and secondaries because the measured white is so high. The JVC is perfectly calibrated, and its colour volume is exactly to spec for its given white level.

Calibration:
Spoiler!


Pay particular attention to the differences in Reds, Yellows, Magentas and Cyans, its actually a huge deficiency. Very muted comparatively. Magenta is an interesting one you can see is actually lacking nuance, its just pretty full on, it loses the finer gradation it should have vs the JVC rendition.

Once I saw this, it didn't really help my comparison either. With brilliant colour off and a much lower luminance (half that of BC on) this issue is mostly mitigated... Largely why I have been saying, they need to fix that. But it sounds like its a hardware trick to get the PJ to throw as much brightness as it does. I dont think the 9060 has this issue.

The JVC definitely has much better shadow detail, possibly due to the little bump in the BenQ's gamma, I dont know... I gave up on BC, I didnt like it, the machine looked good with BC off, but at that point it was only throwing 160 nits on my screen which is about a 2000lm projector level... so... the 9060 would have been an interesting look in.


EDIT - I was able to match the white balance on these in Adobe Light Room, which makes for a more clear comparison. It was easy enough to pick the correct white balance off the white areas in the first two images and apply the same correction across all files from each respective projector. This only leave the colour differences, which becomes much closer, though the colour volume differences are still there. I also added all the original images, which are sRGB 2.2 on a computer screen, so each projector will be rendering it slightly darker in gamma 2.4 as expected.

The BenQ actually looks quite decent vs the original in a couple of the shots, one of them actually looks more correct than the JVC in the clouds (near the end). Its pretty interesting. But the majority show colour volume issues. Its interesting once you white balance in post just how much more it fixes the majority of the colour, it goes a long way. being laser special meters are needed to get it better in person. The colour volume though, that's not fixable, the first few images really clearly show this issue.

Spoiler!
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post #1871 of 1883 Old 07-14-2019, 05:21 AM
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Is the following yoHiur revised settings of the above? Or are they for different purposes?
Hi, Steve. They're for different uses. The first is to extend the range of dynamic dimming, but it crushes some detail; the second set is for better tone-mapping when using the Panasonic player.
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post #1872 of 1883 Old 07-14-2019, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post

Pay particular attention to the differences in Reds, Yellows, Magentas and Cyans, its actually a huge deficiency. Very muted comparatively. Magenta is an interesting one you can see is actually lacking nuance, its just pretty full on, it loses the finer gradation it should have vs the JVC rendition.

Once I saw this, it didn't really help my comparison either. With brilliant colour off and a much lower luminance (half that of BC on) this issue is mostly mitigated... Largely why I have been saying, they need to fix that. But it sounds like its a hardware trick to get the PJ to throw as much brightness as it does. I dont think the 9060 has this issue.

The JVC definitely has much better shadow detail, possibly due to the little bump in the BenQ's gamma, I dont know... I gave up on BC, I didnt like it, the machine looked good with BC off, but at that point it was only throwing 160 nits on my screen which is about a 2000lm projector level... so... the 9060 would have been an interesting look in.
Those pictures look great. In terms of sharpness, I'm surprised at how well the JVC is holding its own there. I do see through my computer screen about the colors on the LK990. It's been a while, but didn't Dave have some settings for that?

Right, the HT9060 doesn't have a brilliant color feature. Remember, it has dedicated RGB LEDs.

As far as contrast numbers between the LK990 and HT9060, they are reportedly around the same, but I don't know how.
The LK990 should have more on/off contrast than the 9060 because of its higher brightness on the top end with its 6,000 lumen capability, but it doesn't seem to be that way. This leads me to believe the HT9060 has better black levels and gets there through its better blacks on the low end, but I'm not sure. I always wanted to get a demo of the LK990, especially to rule out RBE because it uses a color wheel, but I haven't seen one in person yet.
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post #1873 of 1883 Old 07-14-2019, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Those pictures look great. In terms of sharpness, I'm surprised at how well the JVC is holding its own there. I do see through my computer screen about the colors on the LK990. It's been a while, but didn't Dave have some settings for that?

Right, the HT9060 doesn't have a brilliant color feature. Remember, it has dedicated RGB LEDs.

As far as contrast numbers between the LK990 and HT9060, they are reportedly around the same, but I don't know how.
The LK990 should have more on/off contrast than the 9060 because of its higher brightness on the top end with its 6,000 lumen capability, but it doesn't seem to be that way. This leads me to believe the HT9060 has better black levels and gets there through its better blacks on the low end, but I'm not sure. I always wanted to get a demo of the LK990, especially to rule out RBE because it uses a color wheel, but I haven't seen one in person yet.
The brightness does not equal more contrast though, Lower black floor is definitely better when you can reach a certain level of brightness comfortably already, the image looked far better when I used the ND Filter. White peak was still over 100 nits when I did that. An adjustable iris would go a long way on these machines.

Quote:
It's been a while, but didn't Dave have some settings for that?
No, that's one of the BIG things we strongly disagreed on. Dave thinks it was not an issue and you could get around it, but no settings or even calibration is going to get around it, no 1 million point LUT will get around it, unless you dropped the white level to match the colour volume deficiency, but this is already what turning off BC does. Upon substantial 'prodding' he did admit multiple times that the colour volume deficiency is something you have to deal with. It was not an issue for him, For me, its an unacceptable issue. Again, MOST dont see it unless there is another projector in the same room to directly compare this too. I think you can see from the above images 'what is missing' in those super saturated areas. Its bright colour volume information which is clearly missing. Thats why I think the 9060 would be better of the two, it doesn't have that issue, Kris would have mentioned it immediately, and others would see it during calibration, and the 9060 has far greater colour abilities anyway. Supposedly the 970 didn't have the issue either.

Also, the 990 never hit anywhere near 6000 lumens when white balanced, it was more like 3800lm or so.

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post #1874 of 1883 Old 07-14-2019, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Those pictures look great. In terms of sharpness, I'm surprised at how well the JVC is holding its own there. I do see through my computer screen about the colors on the LK990. It's been a while, but didn't Dave have some settings for that?

Right, the HT9060 doesn't have a brilliant color feature. Remember, it has dedicated RGB LEDs.

As far as contrast numbers between the LK990 and HT9060, they are reportedly around the same, but I don't know how.
The LK990 should have more on/off contrast than the 9060 because of its higher brightness on the top end with its 6,000 lumen capability, but it doesn't seem to be that way. This leads me to believe the HT9060 has better black levels and gets there through its better blacks on the low end, but I'm not sure. I always wanted to get a demo of the LK990, especially to rule out RBE because it uses a color wheel, but I haven't seen one in person yet.
Aztar have another look at the images above, I replaced them all, also now included the originals.

I was able to match the white balance on these in Adobe Light Room, which makes for a more clear comparison. It was easy enough to pick the correct white balance off the white areas in the first two images and apply the same correction across all files from each respective projector. This only leave the colour differences, which becomes much closer, though the colour volume differences are still there. I also added all the original images, which are sRGB 2.2 on a computer screen, so each projector will be rendering it slightly darker in gamma 2.4 as expected. the BenQ actually looks decent in a couple of the shots, one of them actually looks more correct than the JVC in the clouds, near the end. Its pretty interesting. But the majority show colour volume issues. Its interesting once you white balance in post just how much more it fixes the majority of the colour, it goes a long way. being laser special meters are needed to get it better in person. The colour volume though, that's not fixable, the first few images really clearly show this issue.
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post #1875 of 1883 Old 07-14-2019, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Aztar have another look at the images above, I replaced them all, also now included the originals.

I was able to match the white balance on these in Adobe Light Room, which makes for a more clear comparison. It was easy enough to pick the correct white balance off the white areas in the first two images and apply the same correction across all files from each respective projector. This only leave the colour differences, which becomes much closer, though the colour volume differences are now much more obvious. I also added all the original images, which are sRGB 2.2 on a computer screen, so each projector will be rendering it slightly darker in gamma 2.4 as expected.
Good stuff, Javs. I see what you mean.
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post #1876 of 1883 Old 06-28-2020, 11:14 PM
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#ARROW-AV Have you heard rumors of when a HT9060 successor might be released? The HT9060 is 1.5 yrs old now so one would think a successor will be coming... hopefully by Jan 2021. I'm hoping they will keep the lens, add more HT related features, increase post calibration lumen output, improve tone mapping (already good) and improve native contrast (probably should be #1 on the list).
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post #1877 of 1883 Old 06-29-2020, 07:29 AM
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#ARROW-AV Have you heard rumors of when a HT9060 successor might be released? The HT9060 is 1.5 yrs old now so one would think a successor will be coming... hopefully by Jan 2021. I'm hoping they will keep the lens, add more HT related features, increase post calibration lumen output, improve tone mapping (already good) and improve native contrast (probably should be #1 on the list).
Native contrast is a limit of the design. So the only way that is getting improved would be to increase lumen output and add a manual iris and I do not see that happening. You might get more lumens, but doubtful on the manual iris.
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post #1878 of 1883 Old 06-29-2020, 07:38 AM
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Yeah could they really even double the native contrast which is about what you would need to really notice it? From the ~1000:1 that it is now to around 2000:1?

I kind of doubt it as we don't normally see DLPs that high contrast except the ultra expensive 1080p 0.95" DarkChip4 models of the past with custom designed light paths.
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post #1879 of 1883 Old 06-29-2020, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
Yeah could they really even double the native contrast which is about what you would need to really notice it? From the ~1000:1 that it is now to around 2000:1?

I kind of doubt it as we don't normally see DLPs that high contrast except the ultra expensive 1080p 0.95" DarkChip4 models of the past with custom designed light paths.
Hopefully they can add the 8X dynamic (currently it does 4X) setting which is part of the TI design, which would essentially double its dynamic black level. Fingers crossed.
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post #1880 of 1883 Old 06-29-2020, 01:49 PM
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Yeah could they really even double the native contrast which is about what you would need to really notice it? From the ~1000:1 that it is now to around 2000:1?

I kind of doubt it as we don't normally see DLPs that high contrast except the ultra expensive 1080p 0.95" DarkChip4 models of the past with custom designed light paths.
I think they can do it and come close even without DC4 chips.

The Runco LS-10, which uses three .66 chips, with its DI off measures at around 3,600:1 and DI on at around 21,000:1. Another example is the single chip Runco LS-5; it uses a .95 chip but DC3 and that measured DI off at c. 2,600:1 and dynamic at c. 9,600:1 on mine. Adaptive Contrast can increase brightness and was on for all measurements.

Turning to these "4K" XPR chips, like in the BenQ HT9060, I believe dynamic dimming and the right algorithm can make a huge difference. Let's look at the Optoma UHZ65 and the Acer VL7860. I know that lasers can dim at lightning speeds, faster than can LEDs, but the LED dimming on the BenQ was pretty quick and quite artifact free.

Un-calibrated, the UHZ65's native measured around 1024:1 but calibrated measured closer to 1,500:1. Dynamic contrast un-cal'd was good and even better in a mode called dynamic Black 2 (DB2), but calibrated DB2 was measuring over 35,000:1.

So here's the thing. These laser projectors have a very high ANSI contrast measurement (500:1 in a review) and strong contrast in the mid to higher ADL range. A really unique thing with these solid state models is that their laser dimming appears to engage beyond where the low crosses over to higher ADL, the area where the projector's native contrast is strong. Also, with the reference cal, there were no pumping or distracting compression artifacts that I saw on the Optoma with the latest firmware, FW v. C17, and there was significantly less RBE than from what I recall when I had it with FW v. C11.

The Acer VL7860 I saw was similar to the UHZ65 but seemed more color-accurate out of the box. The sample I looked at had issues with its lens unfortunately, but focusing it at the center, I could see how sharp it could be.
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Last edited by Aztar35; 06-29-2020 at 01:55 PM.
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post #1881 of 1883 Old 06-29-2020, 01:52 PM
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I guess I just don't have any interest at all in dynamic contrast or dynamic iris or light-source dimming.

To me it's just a dimmer picture. None of those dynamic systems do anything for me for the "washed out" look I see in dark "night time" scenes. What makes the picture look not washed out for me is higher contrast, but the contrast needs to be visible within a single frame. It's the difference between the bright elements and the black floor in a given frame. That's all native contrast. No amount of dynamic contrast can do anything about that since dynamic contrast is measured across different images, not within one image.

For me all a dynamic contrast does is lower the black floor in a dark scene, but again does nothing for me as for reducing the "washed out" look that low native contrast produces to my eyes. Since the amount the black floor is lowered, so is the amount of the rest of the whole image including the brightest highlights. To me it just makes dark scenes look like the projector is simply a dimmer projector with the same contrast ratio as before.

Not to mention there has never been a dynamic iris or dynamic light source system that I have seen where I didn't notice artifacts and seeing the light source change brightness in the middle of a scene and that's also distracting. JVC, Sony, Epson, BenQ all have not managed to do it for me yet. I have to turn off the iris or light dynamic light source on all of these.
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post #1882 of 1883 Old 06-29-2020, 02:09 PM
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To me it's just a dimmer picture.
Unfortunately, I do recall measuring the predecessor to this model, the HT9050, and it had a high native black floor, 0 IRE was around .9. I don't know if the HT9060 is the same native. But if it is better on the laser XPR models, why can't it be done on this BenQ? You should go see one of the laser XPRs in person. Here is what I measured the UHZ native at 0 IRE to be:




And here is what DB2 did for the black floor; the bright elements in the picture remained very bright in DB2, by the way:

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post #1883 of 1883 Old 06-29-2020, 02:20 PM
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I measured the 9060 at around 1000-1100:1 native when I spent an afternoon with one.

At least on the 9060 I can watch it because the RBE is so minimal since there is no color wheel. I can't personally own any color wheel DLP as I see the rainbows almost constantly.
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