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post #1 of 138 Old 04-19-2019, 06:24 PM - Thread Starter
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BenQ LK990 & JVC X9500 Comparison

Hey All,

I happen to have a BenQ LK990 for a couple weeks from BenQ to get a real good look, I also happen to own a JVC X9500 still so naturally, there be comparisons!

In the interest of not flooding the LK990 thread with more JVC comparisons than they probably want, I will post all my thoughts here in this thread so its at least on topic when I jump from one machine to the next in discussion.

I will post my initial thoughts (extracted) from the LK990 thread so we know whats been said so far...

Quote:
Got my LK990 delivered this afternoon.

Amazing thanks to BenQ for personally dropping this machine off to me so I could have it in time with the long weekend. Major props. Personally dropped off by the Vice President of Asia Pacific BenQ.

This thing is throwing 270 nits to my lowly 120inch Oztheatre screen. It's obviously a light cannon.

I have pretty much already spent a good 5 hours with it and figured it out pretty much front to back already.

There are heaps of quirks to this machine I really want to feed back to BenQ to get some of them hopefully sorted out with firmware. I remain hopeful this will be possible for the most part.

I'm just going to list an initial train of thought in no particular order both good and bad.

The image is very very sharp indeed. It does look native 4k to me... Quite natural too. Though motion is odd almost like this is running on a 60hz internal clock or something. There is almost a judder to it, however motion RESOLUTION is excellent.

Brilliant Colour setting is a nightmare, almost couldn't even calibrate Rec709, and when I did manage to, it was not quite at the level I would like.

The gamut is too large with brilliant colour on. It would be great of there was a mode to accurately track Rec709 out of the box because my unit way overshot it. Also when I turn off brilliant colour I cannot select colour temps, you only have one. Also for some reason in Smart eco when I turned off brilliant colour the image went to crap and there was only like 120nits peak down from 270! This machine does not Like brilliant colour mode off.

Gamma was very easy to calibrate and is reference accuracy with 20pt scan and a couple clicks of white balance setting.

The lens in short throw is not focusing evenly across the lens focal plane if that makes sense. I can get about one half of the screen perfectly focused at any one time but he other half is slightly soft. And yes the projector is aligned properly, also tried different mounting heights.. probably either a quirk with this one unit since it's been across Australia or it does not quite like short throw.

I see billions of rainbows unfortunately. Billions. Every second. Every time I blink. Wife sees it too instantly.

The dimming works at more ADL levels than I thought. I really do appreciate when proper fade to black works, and can confirm it does work in Smart Eco, though if the brightness setting is wrong it won't work and I found it to be rather easy to use a combination of settings where it won't work at all. So yeah on a black frame it's totally off. But the jump out of black is fast and pretty severe. I would love BenQ to be more aggressive with the dimming and ramp it up much smoother , perhaps I can share the ADL patterns with them and maybe they can improve it because that would go a seriously long way if they could. Also, I would love to be able to set a laser Level to work in conjunction with dimming, I don't really want 270nits full time.

270 nits is pretty awesome with MadVR. The standard HDR mode isn't very great. You HAVE to send BT2020 with the HDR flag to get the projector to go into HDR mode of you do want to use it.

As for hdr to sdr tone mapping, it's currently impossible to send BT2020 and have the projector detect, and use the gamut, this is big and I would love them to fix this, because right now I can only use Rec709 for HDR tone mapping.

It would be great if we could have a menu option for selecting the colour gamut with any input. Its greyed out in SDR. Likewise with the HDR mode, it would be great to be allowed to select any gamma we like. Dave would then be able to make his on harpervision settings and perhaps if they allowed a 12pt gamma calibration you could calibrate your own EOTF easily.

Blacks are terrible. Obviously. Dimming needs a lot of work here to lessen that blow. But the issue does not pop up as much as one might think, but when it does it can pull you out of the movie. Watching LUCY and Avengers Infinity War and more often than not, the image looks excellent with great depth and detail.

Shadow detail is pretty good generally, though bar 17 is also tough to resolve without breaking dimming. If dimming is on the edge of working there will be some pretty full on pulsing in the image.

Mixed ADL content looks pretty damned excellent overall. Man I really hope DLP can make advancements in contrast though on the low end. Even adding 10k native would be HUGE in tandem with good dimming.

I would love to see a dimming panel used in these machines. A 1000:1 native dimming panel Infront of a 1000:1 image panel will yield 1,000,000:1 native contrast.

This machine is pretty darn loud but it doesn't bother me much.

The manual lens controls are not a big deal breaker at all.

ZERO banding, zero posterization whatsoever. The laser image is nice and stable. Perhaps a little bit of dithering visible if you are right up close to the screen though.

No convergence issues obviously but in short throw I am seeing a green tinge up close to some elements on the outside of the image, so there is obviously CA present on this lens sample but only visible nose to screen, add to that the odd focusing thing ... Probably just this one unit though.

Will begin to share photos and measurements etc this weekend I have Tuesday booked to spend all day comparing. Unfortunately right now I know I can't have these rainbows. So I would need a 3 chip version of this machine with better dimming.

I am going to spend a lot of time watching BRIGHT HDR content with this machine while I have it because it looks stunning on most of it. BenQ have machine with a lot of potential here.

Most of these initial issues I have can be solved with firmware updates to the menu system and calibration controls. Unfortunate about the rainbows though.

Much more to come from me I'm just getting started.
Quote:
This thing really throws a spectacular image though with brighter content. There is definitely large potential here...

I haven't even pulled out the good camera yet, this is just camera phone and 1080p only. Samsara is still reference material. Especially with MadVR upscaling!

Quote:
I'm looking to the future. Next year I will have a 165" Diagonal 16:9 AT screen so any extra lumens will be a luxury. Anything under 2000 is honestly not going to cut it for me. Would rather just keep the 9500 and replace lamps every 500 hours if that were the case...

I'm pretty sure the projector that will end up in my new theatre has not been released quite yet ...

If you put the 990 into full Eco mode or 'dimming' mode it quite a down significantly, but then not quite the same effect as Smart eco. You kinda definitely need to use that mode.

I will also say, the cooling system in this thing is amazing. It is spewing out FAR less heat than my JVC. Usually after a few hours the JVC will cook the room. This thing barely.made the room warm and the exhaust heat is not very hot at all.
Quote:
Well yes for content where it is not meant to be north of 100 nits in a scene it was indeed the same brightness as I already get but I was demoing very bright content last night and it had pretty bright elements in it and looked great, so there was a lot of highlights. Mission Impossible helicopter scene, Avengers, Lucy.

I told madvr I had 270 nits, so a great deal of the scenes were 1:1 and far less compressed than I have to view them normally, it was good to see. You really gotta get the Lumagen going so you can do the same.

Dunkirk was another example that looked good because the whole movie is well under 200 nits if I recall, everything I was watching was 1:1 encoded.

Revenant didn't look very good though... That's definitely a JVC movie. Contrast was poor too often for me. Though dimming did occasionally Do a really good job to hide it. I will say again that I appreciate that the dimming works on ADL levels significantly higher than say the JVC would. I saw it working on pretty bright scenes and it just added a little bit extra to the depth, but I think they have a lot of work to do on nearer to black dimming, needs to be a lot more aggressive.

I know what you mean about all the quirks and calibration frustration now. I would almost rather this not have an HDR mode so I could override a lot of things and maybe do a decent job mapping bt2020.
Quote:
This is where I got up to calibrating Rec709 yesterday, gave up at this point, didn't want to waste too much time on it, the most offensive to my eyes was initially colour temp and I am glad I was able to quickly sort that... But for tracking, its not good. There needs to be a bit more emphasis on this from factory, the default gamut of this projector is wildly wrong from Rec709 or any other useful gamut far as I could see... Really need a proper Rec709 and BT2020 mode... Look at the Magenta primary to get an idea how far off it is. Most of the other colours using pretty extreme hue settings I was able to reel them back in a bit, let alone work on saturation tracking, but Magenta couldn't at all because then it introduced a big swing in the middle. Same with Cyan actually.

For some reason the Colour Gamut menu is greyed out unless feeding HDR to the projector. I dont know why they did that, also HDR doesn't even work until you feed BT2020 flag with it, so what use is a Rec709 setting in the Colour Gamut menu when HDR only works and you can only activate that menu by forcing BT2020? If they enabled that menu at all times, maybe that would sort my issue with calibration, seems right now, in most all modes except HDR, its sending the 'native' widest colour gamut the projector can do. This is again a firmware fixable thing.

Quote:
The manual seems to indicate that colour gamut should be selectable, but its not unless you input HDR. This is clearly a bug then...

• Color Gamut
Color Gamut refers to the range of colors that can potentially be displayed by a device. There are some standards to define difference levels of color gamuts for display devices, such as CIE 1976, sRGB, Adobe RGB, NTSC, etc.
With this projector, selecting Auto will automatically apply the most suitable color gamut to the image source. You can also select BT. 709, BT. 2020, or DCI-P3 according to your needs.
Quote:
Madvr tone mapping seems to need a power gamma to work properly. You can enable HDR with the tone mapping but it didn't seem to work quite right because the BenQ factory HDR curve was clearly fighting with Madvr. I will revisit later. I ended up deciding it was less stressful just using SDR mode and rec709 that I had sort of calibrated. I got a pretty amazing image very quickly then. We just need that gamut menu available at all times.

I know that HDR mode through madvr is designed for things like OLED's which have their own tone mapping and are far dimmer unless you use a dedicated HDR mode. In such a case I think you are supposed to use fairly different settings.

It sounds like your room is not a Batcave though? Regarding the revenant you probably need something like a JVC or high contrast Sony there to see/remember where you are really lacking in low adl content. I looked at the camp fire scene just after, only a 6nit shot. Was extremely grey. Other portions of the movie looked fine!

Checking out some more challenging content today... Star wars etc.

P.s. got 3D working need to use HDMI 2 which doesn't support 4k at all it seems! Hmmmm... So if you want to use 3d you need twin HDMI from your AVR.
Quote:
I just had a pretty good look at 3D... various titles. Sammys Adventure. Avatar, Moanna.

I dont know what the other BenQ's are like, but 3D on this projector is really soft. Depth and Crosstalk is perfect. Even contrast looks pretty OK through the glasses. But the image is also quite unsteady and unmistakably soft. I wonder if its the non native 1080p chips ?

I turned on the JVC X9500 and did overlaid 3D so I could switch between the two in a couple seconds using HIDE, and there is a significant sharpness and more interestingy 'calmness' advantage to the JVC in 3D mode.

Aztar, I know what you mean, my eyes were straining more than they do on the fully passive system on the JVC. it was easy to see when you switch between the glasses and projectors.

On Tuesday I will take a couple pics of this through the glasses on both machines.

Do you guys prefer me to make a new thread? Because I hate to say it, but there is going to be a lot of comparisons between my JVC X9500 and this BenQ over the next couple weeks with images and all. I could still post it here but I dont want someone to come in asking why I am talking about a JVC in comparison. I also feel since I have both here, I cannot just talk about the BenQ because when you can compare instantly like I can, there are clear differences that are obvious between the two both good and bad. For eg, I would have thought that 3D image was normal until I turned on the JVC and saw it was way sharper there...
Aand here we are... further comments from me will go in this thread, please join the conversation here if you are interested...

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post #2 of 138 Old 04-19-2019, 06:27 PM - Thread Starter
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It's a big machine!


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post #3 of 138 Old 04-19-2019, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
I would love to see a dimming panel used in these machines. A 1000:1 native dimming panel In front of a 1000:1 image panel will yield 1,000,000:1 native contrast.
Nice Javs.

So would I. But I think we would need much brighter light sources for that to happen, due to the light loss.

With laser/phosphor globes in development, hope it happens sooner than later.

I don't see rainbows at least not on my Sharp Z30000.

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post #4 of 138 Old 04-20-2019, 05:43 AM
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Its intersting to know that 3d looks soft, and its weird that it only works with Hdmi 2, is it significantly brighter in 3d than ur jvc 9500 ?

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post #5 of 138 Old 04-20-2019, 07:35 AM
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Just curious why you have plans for such a large 16x9 screen. With your obvious expertise just wonder why your not planning to use scope screen, with a lens etc. As I think about getting a larger screen I still debate the whole 16x9 and scope issues.

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post #6 of 138 Old 04-20-2019, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffg8 View Post
Just curious why you have plans for such a large 16x9 screen. With your obvious expertise just wonder why your not planning to use scope screen, with a lens etc. As I think about getting a larger screen I still debate the whole 16x9 and scope issues.

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Why would you put a lens in front of a razor sharp 4K projector? There goes your razor sharp 4K image by doing so.
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post #7 of 138 Old 04-20-2019, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
Its intersting to know that 3d looks soft, and its weird that it only works with Hdmi 2, is it significantly brighter in 3d than ur jvc 9500 ?
3D requires the XPR function to be turned off. So scaling is always present and you can't use their 4K enhancement sharpening to try and combat the softness of the scaling. With XPR designs you are ALWAYS scaling, regardless of what you are watching. With it on, you can try and increase perceptual sharpness with their sharpening, similar to Reality Creation with the Sony models trying to compensate for the loss of sharpness from their always on scaling in the background.

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Im just still looking to find out, if combined with a HTPC or Lumagem Radiance Pro, would you rather a 970 or 990.

3d is a non issue for me as I have NEVER used it any of my last 3 projectors.
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post #9 of 138 Old 04-20-2019, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
Its intersting to know that 3d looks soft, and its weird that it only works with Hdmi 2, is it significantly brighter in 3d than ur jvc 9500 ?
Yeah 3D was quite a bit brighter. But anybody in the room who compares the two would watch an actual film on the JVC hands down. Its not even a contest IMO. It was SO bad that it pushed me to do the comparison right there and then because I didn't remember it being soft when I view it on the JVC like that. The JVC in high lamp was not too far off the BenQ though honestly. In numbers probably it would be, but subjectively in 3D it didn't look too bad and they were much closer, the BenQ has no controls to make 3D brighter, but the JVC does, So I guess in 3D the BenQ takes a massive hit.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffg8 View Post
Just curious why you have plans for such a large 16x9 screen. With your obvious expertise just wonder why your not planning to use scope screen, with a lens etc. As I think about getting a larger screen I still debate the whole 16x9 and scope issues.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
Because I dont like scope screens. And would never bother with a lens. I actually view a fair amount of 16:9 content. I MUCH prefer the FULL width of my theatre taken up by the content no matter what I am watching than only half of what I am watching. That screen is going to be maxing out the screen wall. And definitely maxing out the limited throw distance so much so I will have to put a hole in my wall and have the projector in the adjoining room.
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post #11 of 138 Old 04-20-2019, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Maestrosc View Post
Im just still looking to find out, if combined with a HTPC or Lumagem Radiance Pro, would you rather a 970 or 990.

3d is a non issue for me as I have NEVER used it any of my last 3 projectors.
Well I have not seen the 970 so cannot tell you anything about that. but the 990 will do a proper fade to black I know that much. The 970 does not have full dimming either apparently, but Dave will tell you it has better blacks somehow, but I have yet to see him post any data actually showing that.

The dimming on the 990 is actually decent within the boundaries of what limited contrast it has to work with, I see it dimming on scenes that are actually pretty bright, so it lessens the contrast blow pretty well. But all those things I mentioned which need to be addressed with firmware, if done, would likely make it a no brainer vs the 970.

But right now, probably the 970 purely for the fact that you can send SDR WCG with it and do actual good tone mapping, I think? Or maybe it does not even have WCG.

The 990 can do good tone mapping, but you cannot select colour gamut, so no P3 or BT2020 at all, which is a huge showstopper. Though Rec709 does look fine...

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BenQ LK990 & JVC X9500 Comparison

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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Well I have not seen the 970 so cannot tell you anything about that. but the 990 will do a proper fade to black I know that much. The 970 does not have full dimming either apparently, but Dave will tell you it has better blacks somehow, but I have yet to see him post any data actually showing that. ...

It has Automatic Power Control, which is a form of dynamic laser and chassis power dimming/lowering from what we could glean. As I’ve said, I have posted some numbers and so has tnaik4 and 12GAGE.

I’m not saying totally that the LK970 has better blacks/black floor than the LK990. What I notice so far is that it “appears” that the LK990, with SmartEco engaged (and even without maybe), there’s different gamma manipulation going on than what’s in the LK970, for the worst it seems so far. What I’m saying is that on the LK990, I get what you say you’re seeing with more haze in the lower black levels. I don’t get that on the LK970. I think it’s due to the 970 not doing anything (like gamma manipulation, etc.) except what I specifically tell it to do.

Again, this is why I asked you about the waveform monitor so it could be checked, but that’s clearly not happening because you think I’m just full of it and you aren’t open enough to pursue this, even though I’m the one that’s experienced this first hand and have had BOTH models to see the differences in how they respond.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs
I just had a pretty good look at 3D... various titles. Sammys Adventure. Avatar, Moanna.

I dont know what the other BenQ's are like, but 3D on this projector is really soft. Depth and Crosstalk is perfect. Even contrast looks pretty OK through the glasses. But the image is also quite unsteady and unmistakably soft. I wonder if its the non native 1080p chips ?

I turned on the JVC X9500 and did overlaid 3D so I could switch between the two in a couple seconds using HIDE, and there is a significant sharpness and more interestingy 'calmness' advantage to the JVC in 3D mode.

Aztar, I know what you mean, my eyes were straining more than they do on the fully passive system on the JVC. it was easy to see when you switch between the glasses and projectors..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35
A few things first...I received my Optoma ZD302 3D glasses and tried 3D again, but the outcome wasn't much different from before. Three D does look pretty good but not as good as I remember it being when compared to the seven-year-old BenQ W7000. The W7000's 3D was sharper and easier on the eyes in terms of fatigue. On the 9060, lines are well-defined but the 3D image has more of an air brushed look as opposed to the razor sharp images found in the 9060's 2D. I'm really not sure why the mild eye strain and less sharp pictures in 3D.
thank you both for the 3D feedback on the LK990 and HT9060, it sounds like the experience is similar between both models. Maybe there is an issue with the scaling of 1080P 3D to the XPR native res?
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post #14 of 138 Old 04-20-2019, 07:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Posting this here tooo:

I turned off BRILLIANT COLOUR and had a go at calibrating again, and now I have MUCH BETTER results.

Rec709 tracks pretty great, I am NOT a certified calibrator, but I feel like I do alright, a good 45 mins and this is what I came up with... I am happy with this. while I could get the DE number lower in some cases, I actually put extra emphasis on getting the luminance numbers the most accurate... Which is Delta L here... So, the primaries, pay a little less attention to those, and more attention to Delta L across the saturation tracking... or at least that's what the amateur inside me says. Getting the colours perfectly in the box would yield worse Delta L numbers so I had to find the balance... Anyway, as far as rec709 goes I think the only thing you may see actually lacking in content is perhaps a bit of red... The rest I doubt any person would ever notice.















Dont know what is going on at 15%, dont really mind much... I think probably dimming was doing something to gamma here..



Colour temp across the range looks good.




Moral of the Story, BRILLIANT COLOUR is not good.

Also something I noticed last night, when feeding direct HDR to the projector (not tone mapping) Smart Eco goes nuts with pulsing different colour temperatures as its dimming, sounds a lot like the JVC issues that are plaguing those units when the DI is in use...

I was noticing in two different sources that the screen would change colour temp pretty drastically every second or two, or, pretty much in line with when dimming was doing something, and it was really jarring. Turn off Smart Eco and it did not do it any more... They need to fix that.

I have not seen this happen in any SDR modes yet, including HDR to SDR tone mapping.

Next up I might try and use a different picture profile mode and see if I can get some semblance of P3 tracking.... Since the native gamut way overshoots Rec709 I think its possible. Will report back later.

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post #15 of 138 Old 04-20-2019, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Alright had a go calibrating P3 inside Rec2020 container... Not particularly good.... But I got it to a point, it would probably be somewhat functional. I need to measure the gamut when fed direct HDR, this was me putting it into another picture mode (CINEMA) and copying over most of my settings from the USER mode and then seeing if I could manipulate the gamut enough.

At least I could use MadVR Tone mapping and see if it gives me anything when selecting BT2020 there rather than down-sampling everything to Rec709... It will definitely benefit some colours.

What I did seem to do is at least get it to pretty much track OK in the first half of the gamut, which is probably where all the critical mid tone colours are... but on the top end, the bright stuff, this is nowhere near reference especially with Green, Cyan and Red LOL.

Next plan is to get it into HDR mode and see how the gamut tracks there, or differs. I bet it wont actually be any wider. This is still just about Rec709 primaries at the end of the day in regards to Green, Idential to Rec709 Green at 100%. Some of the other colours are pushed a bit more. Blue is pretty good. Yellow is good. Red is actually probably going to be for the most part pretty passable with most content. Cyan though, that's a disaster.














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post #16 of 138 Old 04-20-2019, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
thank you both for the 3D feedback on the LK990 and HT9060, it sounds like the experience is similar between both models. Maybe there is an issue with the scaling of 1080P 3D to the XPR native res?
Yeah it definitely looks like very poor scaling, just blurry. As if you looked at the worst possible scaling algorithm from 1080p to 4K, you just see blurry details and no effort. Its even worse that the panels are not an exact multiple of 1080p, that's definitely the compounding issue. If it was literally pixel doubling that would actually be far better, but its not. The JVC was hands down the winner in 3D. Also the BenQ gives me a little bit of eye fatigue just generally watching it anyway, I dont know if some of that is to do with rainbows though too. But in 3D, my eyes were MUCH more happy watching the JVC for that, it was sharper, the depth was arguably good if not better.

The BenQ did have flawless crosstalk though. But that couldn't save it. The JVC with a couple clicks on crosstalk cancel does the same for me...
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Javs, would rotating the tint a click or two each way help at all?
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post #18 of 138 Old 04-20-2019, 08:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Javs, would rotating the tint a click or two each way help at all?

Nah, thats what hue is for.

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post #19 of 138 Old 04-21-2019, 05:03 AM
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Also the BenQ gives me a little bit of eye fatigue just generally watching it anyway, I dont know if some of that is to do with rainbows though too.
Yea perhaps just the fact that it is a flickering technology similar to something you might get with a CRT refreshing as the color wheel flies by changing colors so fast. I felt a little bit of fatigue also. I saw massive rainbows also but only with pure white objects and moving my eyes fast. They were visible, but if I loved every aspect of the projector otherwise, I think I'd be ok with them and live with it.

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post #20 of 138 Old 04-21-2019, 06:11 AM
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Thanks for the work and the data; very helpful. When you did 709 gray scale you show 0% at zero. Do you have a measured panel floor without any enhancements/dimming and then the steps to 5%? Sorry if you posted it in one of these many threads and I missed it.

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Aand here we are... further comments from me will go in this thread, please join the conversation here if you are interested...
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Its intersting to know that 3d looks soft, and its weird that it only works with Hdmi 2, is it significantly brighter in 3d than ur jvc 9500 ?
3d on this pj is an odd resolution @1.4x upscale from 1080p, no way to do that without a sharpness loss tho maybe an improved processor could do a better job.

The HDMI implementation is also tricky, apparently on 0.66 xpr chip 3d and 4k need two separate hdmi paths, resulting in.the manual 3d toggle.
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BenQ LK990 & JVC X9500 Comparison

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Originally Posted by oztheatre View Post
Javs, would rotating the tint a click or two each way help at all?
Quote:
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Nah, thats what hue is for.

Hue and tint mean the same things and the words themselves can be interchangeable.

In this case “Tint” in the Top level User Menu is meaning the overall image’s Hue/Tint (all colors combined) is adjusted simultaneously to the same degree. “Hue” in the CMS menu refers to each separate color’s (RGBCMY) Hue/Tint which can be adjusted independently of one another.

So if all the colors were off by about the same degree in the same rotation/phase relationship, then just adjusting Tint could help. If it’s only a few of the individual colors that are off, then Hue needs to be adjusted for those specific colors first.

What’s supposed to happen is that you calibrate the CMS (and other things like greyscale, gamma, etc.) so they all align properly to their respective gamuts, so that when you then adjust the User Menu’s Tint Control, they all move the same amount and stay in the proper phase relationship to each other while the adjustment is being made.
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post #23 of 138 Old 04-21-2019, 11:59 AM
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On many projectors, the best calibration is the one you can get to the end result with the fewest CMS and other changes, less chance of posterization.

Honestly, I'm not able to use my C6 meter because it's borderline worthless when you need to concede the calibration to get a brighter image without gamma causing posterization.
On my old JVC, I calibrated by eye, could not get a good calibration with the meter, too much posterization.

I'm sure on these newer projectors, much less of an issue.
A lot of people calibrate by a meter and think that's as good as it gets, sometimes you can get a bit more pop out of the image without sacrificing too much color accuracy.

Color accuracy is most important when comparing 2 projectors, then you have to be really precise. However, for just watching movies, it's important to get it ballpark, but to get it exact isn't always better than just making it slightly brighter or more contrasty with slightly less accuracy. Some calibrations cause too much contrast loss just to gain a tiny bit of color accuracy.

The only reason pro calibrators have to do everything precise, is because they have limited time. I mean they cannot sit at your house for a week.
It can take almost forever with fiddling with settings and experimenting.
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post #24 of 138 Old 04-21-2019, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the work and the data; very helpful. When you did 709 gray scale you show 0% at zero. Do you have a measured panel floor without any enhancements/dimming and then the steps to 5%? Sorry if you posted it in one of these many threads and I missed it.
The native contrast was 1000:1 and dynamic without full fade to black was 5000:1.

I can get the actual lum numbers for you another time I didn't bother with near black readings in hcfr.
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post #25 of 138 Old 04-21-2019, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
On many projectors, the best calibration is the one you can get to the end result with the fewest CMS and other changes, less chance of posterization.

Honestly, I'm not able to use my C6 meter because it's borderline worthless when you need to concede the calibration to get a brighter image without gamma causing posterization.
On my old JVC, I calibrated by eye, could not get a good calibration with the meter, too much posterization.

I'm sure on these newer projectors, much less of an issue.
A lot of people calibrate by a meter and think that's as good as it gets, sometimes you can get a bit more pop out of the image without sacrificing too much color accuracy.

Color accuracy is most important when comparing 2 projectors, then you have to be really precise. However, for just watching movies, it's important to get it ballpark, but to get it exact isn't always better than just making it slightly brighter or more contrasty with slightly less accuracy. Some calibrations cause too much contrast loss just to gain a tiny bit of color accuracy.

The only reason pro calibrators have to do everything precise, is because they have limited time. I mean they cannot sit at your house for a week.
It can take almost forever with fiddling with settings and experimenting.
Have u tried lightspace 3DLUT calibration ?
After ironing out all the issues i m getting excellent results with the LK970 rec709 profile.

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post #26 of 138 Old 04-21-2019, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Forgot to repost these

DEFAULT HDR BT2020 GAMUT



After some tweaking... I cant really do much better than this, possibly due to white balance bug... Look at they greyscale, its having drastic white balance shift on the very top end, you cant calibrate that out. It seems to correct itself just under the HDR Rolloff. by 60% you can see its stabilised. Pay no attention to the delta e errors.



While green does indeed extend further, I would be more inclined to use SDR anyway and the custom gamut I created since its more accurate more of the time, its the lesser of two evils for sure.

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post #27 of 138 Old 04-21-2019, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by g_bickle View Post
Yeah, I have yet to come across a dlp projector where brilliant colour has an advantage from a videophile perspective. When I checked my W11000 Benq, the colour volume was significantly lower with it ON.

It looks brighter, more punchier if you flick it on but is detrimental to colour gamut volume in my experience.
Absolutely spot on and correct. I was just about to post this too.

Since I noticed without Brilliant Colour you only get about 55-60% the capable light out put of the projector,

Its a shame that when y ou turn off Brilliant Colour, the projector drops from ~3200 LUX down to about 1800LUX at least from where my meter sits, that's going from about 270 Nits on my screen down to about 150-160 @120 " 16:9, that's a HUGE reduction. And forgoes one of the big draws of this projector, and that is brightness. If you have a huge screen, you might be forced to use Brilliant Colour for enough light.

I had a go at calibrating a new picture mode with Brilliant Colour ON. It was far more difficult, I did not get very good results... Passable for sure. But I am not sure I would recommend using it at this point, unless BenQ can please unlock the full brightness with Brilliant Colour OFF. This will be one of the top points of feedback for them from me.

Here look at the calibration I did with Brilliant Colour ON. You look at Delta L, I guess that is luminance, or, volume in a way. Its way short.


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post #28 of 138 Old 04-21-2019, 02:30 PM - Thread Starter
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BRILLIANT COLOUR appears to double the lumen output.... So, if you have it off, you are knocked back considerably.

You can see above in my calibrations that my average white was about 1700 LUX when calibrating, this was with Brilliant Colour OFF.

Now that I am forcing HDR mode, I was looking into another bug with respect to colour temp in HDR... And decided to try Brilliant Colour ON, and the brightness jumped to 3600LUX!!

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post #29 of 138 Old 04-21-2019, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
BRILLIANT COLOUR appears to double the lumen output.... So, if you have it off, you are knocked back considerably.

You can see above in my calibrations that my average white was about 1700 LUX when calibrating, this was with Brilliant Colour OFF.

Now that I am forcing HDR mode, I was looking into another bug with respect to colour temp in HDR... And decided to try Brilliant Colour ON, and the brightness jumped to 3600LUX!!
Javs the lk970 doesnt have brilliant color, and its a lot easier to calibrate and gets around 210nits calirated on my 135inch diagonal 16:9 1.1 gain screen.
So the light output is there without the brilliant color, must be a bug or something. The 990 seems like it desperatly needs a firmware update, if it wont get it the 970 looks like the better option between the 2 as of right now.
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post #30 of 138 Old 04-21-2019, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
BRILLIANT COLOUR appears to double the lumen output.... So, if you have it off, you are knocked back considerably.

You can see above in my calibrations that my average white was about 1700 LUX when calibrating, this was with Brilliant Colour OFF.

Now that I am forcing HDR mode, I was looking into another bug with respect to colour temp in HDR... And decided to try Brilliant Colour ON, and the brightness jumped to 3600LUX!!
Brilliant color leaves the DMD turned on during the color wheel color segment transitions which both increases brightness very much and decreases accuracy (and often contrast) very much. Usually though it's more like 20-30% brightness loss with it turned off, surprised its 50% with this model.

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