Advice: JVC X790R or Epson 5050ub - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 19Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #61 of 102 Old 07-08-2019, 08:11 AM
Senior Member
 
jaychatbonneau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 464
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 302 Post(s)
Liked: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
A higher contrast projector always has higher contrast in any room. But the worse the room is, the smaller the gap between the two, because the room, not the projector is the limiting factor. As for gaming lag, the two are so close that you will not be able to tell a difference. Calibrated brightness between the two is very close. The Epson is definitely brighter in dynamic mode, though the image is so far off, few use that mode.

True higher contrast projectors still have higher contrast in ambient light but how much of the advantage you will be able to see depends on the room. In a typical living room brightness is way more important than contrast. Calibrated brightness on these units is not close. Natural mode in medium lamp and the midpoint of the zoom on the Epson is about 1850 lumens. The maximum spec, not measurement, spec on the JVC before calibration is 1900 lumens. And you will have very bad time gaming on this JVC. Apparently the best it can do with input lag reduction is something in the 40ms range. That is totally and utterly awful.
jaychatbonneau is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 102 Old 07-08-2019, 08:18 AM
Senior Member
 
jaychatbonneau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 464
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 302 Post(s)
Liked: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
A higher contrast projector always has higher contrast in any room. But the worse the room is, the smaller the gap between the two, because the room, not the projector is the limiting factor. As for gaming lag, the two are so close that you will not be able to tell a difference. Calibrated brightness between the two is very close. The Epson is definitely brighter in dynamic mode, though the image is so far off, few use that mode.
And if you think the JVC's awful latency won't affect your gaming experience you are dead wrong. This video will show you why.

jaychatbonneau is offline  
post #63 of 102 Old 07-08-2019, 08:24 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,565
Mentioned: 232 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11828 Post(s)
Liked: 9358
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaychatbonneau View Post
True higher contrast projectors still have higher contrast in ambient light but how much of the advantage you will be able to see depends on the room. In a typical living room brightness is way more important than contrast. Calibrated brightness on these units is not close. Natural mode in medium lamp and the midpoint of the zoom on the Epson is about 1850 lumens. The maximum spec, not measurement, spec on the JVC before calibration is 1900 lumens. And you will have very bad time gaming on this JVC. Apparently the best it can do with input lag reduction is something in the 40ms range. That is totally and utterly awful.
40ms horrible? Most people (as in nearly everyone) will not notice the 8ms difference between the two. It also depends on what brightness you look at. The LCOS projectors, unlike the LCD projectors hardly lose any lumens, when calibrated, so you are talking around 1,600 to 1,700 calibrated lumens. For HDR with DCI P3 filter in place you are talking around 1,440 lumens on the JVC and 1,100 lumens on the Epson. So contrast is better by a mile on the JVC and HDR brightness is a fair amount brighter on the JVC. If you need all out brightness, then the Epson is the way to go, but if talking picture quality, the JVC wins. Don't get me wrong, the 5050 at 3k price point is a very good projector.
Mike Garrett is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #64 of 102 Old 07-08-2019, 08:36 AM
Senior Member
 
jaychatbonneau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 464
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 302 Post(s)
Liked: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
40ms horrible? Most people (as in nearly everyone) will not notice the 8ms difference between the two. It also depends on what brightness you look at. The LCOS projectors, unlike the LCD projectors hardly lose any lumens, when calibrated, so you are talking around 1,600 to 1,700 calibrated lumens. For HDR with DCI P3 filter in place you are talking around 1,440 lumens on the JVC and 1,100 lumens on the Epson. So contrast is better by a mile on the JVC and HDR brightness is a fair amount brighter on the JVC. If you need all out brightness, then the Epson is the way to go, but if talking picture quality, the JVC wins. Don't get me wrong, the 5050 at 3k price point is a very good projector.
The Epson is in the low 20-somethings ms for 4K gaming and high 20-somethings ms for 1080p inputs. That is not an 8ms difference. And, yes, 8ms is noticeable.
jaychatbonneau is offline  
post #65 of 102 Old 07-08-2019, 09:49 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 5
Hi Everyone.

In another threat I was asking for difference between 6050ub and RS440U.

Today I finally went to one of the best dealers in my city. They didn’t have R440 anymore so they showed me RS540 and TW9400 (6050ub).

We have compared few movies only UHD. It was in dedicated room, dark everything no ambient light. 120 inch frame grey screen. (3m wide)

So I have spent 3+ hours looking at picture from both projectors.
JVC was new straight from the box as well as TW9400.
JVC was in the default HDR mode high lamp slightly tuned by the dealer guys who were definitely JVC fans. I noticed they put some dark details setting quite far right.

Epson I had the remote so it was in natural mode high lamp HDR at 2or 3 slightly decreased brightness setting to improve blacks I liked stepping down one click on the Color temperature on some movies.

Results:
JVC has Better blacks but only in dark scenes. While blacks are better same time there was less shadow details on JVC what bothered me. However night sky on Life of Pi looked much better on JVC. The day scenes though looked better on Epson due to better brightness of whites and colours. Epson picture was much more 3D I had impression the action is happening next to me. On JVC it was darker and I wasn’t as much part of the action.

Colors onJVC were much more natural but Epson colors were more vibrant, live.

On mixed scenes the contrast of Epson was fantastic. HDR bright parts of picture were very strong while dark parts were really dark. JVC was much flatter on these type of scenes due to luck of power to make bright parts of the screen coming out as it was the case for other projector. On these scenes blacks were not better on JVC and more or less in pair with TW9400. What I Have noticed the solder cups from Billy Lyns Long Halftime Walk on the cementary scene on JVC were a bit greenish not entirely black while on Epson they were definitely black nothing else. Generally I felt a bit of green thing in JVC.

Sharpness perceived from viewing distance was similar basically very good. Close to the screen on Epson you see pixels but no noise. OnJVC you see no pixels but very visible noise -like little ants running on the screen;-). I was told it is normal. However final effect is similar. Both equally sharp and very good.

Fan noise was similar however while on JVC was constantly the same on Epson it was generally quieter as projector makes it quieter based on actual brightness of the on screen scene. Since there are not many full brightness scenes fan was quieter than JVC most of the time. But not silent.

I believe Epson had generally noisier picture than JVC. JVC paused images were cleaner. But while on movie it was not much visible.

So based on my review I prefer Epson due its much much better HDR experience to me. Also better brightness gives to me more pleasure in watching than better blacks in dark scenes. Colors of Epson are also great but different than JVC. I think this is some taste thing.

Oh and I was expecting really great blacks from JVC based on all of these great reviews on that point. Like inky blacks. Then forget it. This is far from OLED blacks. Better than Epson by maybe 2 gamma clicks but it is still dark grey. Not really black. And only on dark scenes.

Bottom line even if equally priced to me I would choose Epson. Ideal would be Epson TW9400 with JVC black level. That would be a dream machine to me.

So instead of reading of tonnes of internet like I did before the best is to spend some good time with projectors and assess based on personal taste.

After today I know I will exchange my older Panny 8000 to Epson and I will power up my 150 inch screen with very nice pop HDR.
Luminated67 likes this.
Dilema is online now  
post #66 of 102 Old 07-08-2019, 09:56 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,565
Mentioned: 232 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11828 Post(s)
Liked: 9358
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilema View Post
Hi Everyone.

In another threat I was asking for difference between 6050ub and RS440U.

Today I finally went to one of the best dealers in my city. They didn’t have R440 anymore so they showed me RS540 and TW9400 (6050ub).

We have compared few movies only UHD. It was in dedicated room, dark everything no ambient light. 120 inch frame grey screen. (3m wide)

So I have spent 3+ hours looking at picture from both projectors.
JVC was new straight from the box as well as TW9400.
JVC was in the default HDR mode high lamp slightly tuned by the dealer guys who were definitely JVC fans. I noticed they put some dark details setting quite far right.

Epson I had the remote so it was in natural mode high lamp HDR at 2or 3 slightly decreased brightness setting to improve blacks I liked stepping down one click on the Color temperature on some movies.

Results:
JVC has Better blacks but only in dark scenes. While blacks are better same time there was less shadow details on JVC what bothered me. However night sky on Life of Pi looked much better on JVC. The day scenes though looked better on Epson due to better brightness of whites and colours. Epson picture was much more 3D I had impression the action is happening next to me. On JVC it was darker and I wasn’t as much part of the action.

Colors onJVC were much more natural but Epson colors were more vibrant, live.

On mixed scenes the contrast of Epson was fantastic. HDR bright parts of picture were very strong while dark parts were really dark. JVC was much flatter on these type of scenes due to luck of power to make bright parts of the screen coming out as it was the case for other projector. On these scenes blacks were not better on JVC and more or less in pair with TW9400. What I Have noticed the solder cups from Billy Lyns Long Halftime Walk on the cementary scene on JVC were a bit greenish not entirely black while on Epson they were definitely black nothing else. Generally I felt a bit of green thing in JVC.

Sharpness perceived from viewing distance was similar basically very good. Close to the screen on Epson you see pixels but no noise. OnJVC you see no pixels but very visible noise -like little ants running on the screen;-). I was told it is normal. However final effect is similar. Both equally sharp and very good.

Fan noise was similar however while on JVC was constantly the same on Epson it was generally quieter as projector makes it quieter based on actual brightness of the on screen scene. Since there are not many full brightness scenes fan was quieter than JVC most of the time. But not silent.

I believe Epson had generally noisier picture than JVC. JVC paused images were cleaner. But while on movie it was not much visible.

So based on my review I prefer Epson due its much much better HDR experience to me. Also better brightness gives to me more pleasure in watching than better blacks in dark scenes. Colors of Epson are also great but different than JVC. I think this is some taste thing.

Oh and I was expecting really great blacks from JVC based on all of these great reviews on that point. Like inky blacks. Then forget it. This is far from OLED blacks. Better than Epson by maybe 2 gamma clicks but it is still dark grey. Not really black. And only on dark scenes.

Bottom line even if equally priced to me I would choose Epson. Ideal would be Epson TW9400 with JVC black level. That would be a dream machine to me.

So instead of reading of tonnes of internet like I did before the best is to spend some good time with projectors and assess based on personal taste.

After today I know I will exchange my older Panny 8000 to Epson and I will power up my 150 inch screen with very nice pop HDR.
If calibrated, the colors should look the same on the JVC and the Epson. The JVC usually comes closer to calibrated, out of the box, but color can be adjusted to match either projector. In other words, I would not use this as a decision factor.

Last edited by Mike Garrett; 07-08-2019 at 10:02 AM.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #67 of 102 Old 07-08-2019, 12:27 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,027
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked: 1316
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaychatbonneau View Post
The Epson is in the low 20-somethings ms for 4K gaming and high 20-somethings ms for 1080p inputs. That is not an 8ms difference. And, yes, 8ms is noticeable.
10-20 ms is not noticeable in normal measuring methods of human response, it is probably noticeable by using average scoring in an FPS game, as the higher the better. However, for any casual gamer it isn't going to matter much. The time your eyes take to scan such a giant screen is bad for FPS games anyhow, so competitive gaming on a projector automatically introduces visual lag issues. As far as can humans feel the difference in unbiased testing, nope not even close, humans can only tell the difference directly of a difference of around +40-60ms, but the catch with that number is that they can execute on a difference even if they cannot tell the difference. The difference will show up in the gaming score long before the difference is actually measureable.

The fastest reaction time a sprinter ever had from the starting gate to the starter gun was around 40ms or somewhere around there, this means they looked closely at the video and checked muscle stimuli and eye reaction and all that stuff. It's possible to react slightly faster to a visual cue but most people will not be able to, there might be some exceptions to around 30ms.

The core issue of lag is the stacking effect to the initial reaction, but if you are playing a game like Witcher 3 or something casual, it just isn't going to matter unless we are talking 50ms or even more.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --

Last edited by coderguy; 07-08-2019 at 12:34 PM.
coderguy is offline  
post #68 of 102 Old 07-08-2019, 04:35 PM
Senior Member
 
jaychatbonneau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 464
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 302 Post(s)
Liked: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
10-20 ms is not noticeable in normal measuring methods of human response, it is probably noticeable by using average scoring in an FPS game, as the higher the better. However, for any casual gamer it isn't going to matter much. The time your eyes take to scan such a giant screen is bad for FPS games anyhow, so competitive gaming on a projector automatically introduces visual lag issues. As far as can humans feel the difference in unbiased testing, nope not even close, humans can only tell the difference directly of a difference of around +40-60ms, but the catch with that number is that they can execute on a difference even if they cannot tell the difference. The difference will show up in the gaming score long before the difference is actually measureable.

The fastest reaction time a sprinter ever had from the starting gate to the starter gun was around 40ms or somewhere around there, this means they looked closely at the video and checked muscle stimuli and eye reaction and all that stuff. It's possible to react slightly faster to a visual cue but most people will not be able to, there might be some exceptions to around 30ms.

The core issue of lag is the stacking effect to the initial reaction, but if you are playing a game like Witcher 3 or something casual, it just isn't going to matter unless we are talking 50ms or even more.

You are dead wrong about the effects of input lag in shooters of any kind. You are right that it does not matter for slow narrative-based games. That said, changes in latency from input to change on the screen easily noticeable, even in quite small increments. Did you watch the video I posted? You should.

Last edited by jaychatbonneau; 07-08-2019 at 04:39 PM.
jaychatbonneau is offline  
post #69 of 102 Old 07-08-2019, 04:44 PM
Senior Member
 
jaychatbonneau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 464
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 302 Post(s)
Liked: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
If calibrated, the colors should look the same on the JVC and the Epson. The JVC usually comes closer to calibrated, out of the box, but color can be adjusted to match either projector. In other words, I would not use this as a decision factor.
If those projectors were calibrated properly colors should have looked the same.

That said. Congratulations.new projectors are fun.
jaychatbonneau is offline  
post #70 of 102 Old 07-08-2019, 05:05 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,027
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked: 1316
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaychatbonneau View Post
You are dead wrong about the effects of input lag in shooters of any kind. You are right that it does not matter for slow narrative-based games. That said, changes in latency from input to change on the screen easily noticeable, even in quite small increments. Did you watch the video I posted? You should.
He was showing 100ms to 1ms, so yah of course, and he was drawing something. However, the video is interesting, but that's a completely different type of latency, the movement in that case is following a finger. With gaming, the movement is a change in movement or a start in movement, not continuous lag, lag only affects the actual changes since you are seeing past fluidity.

That video is not based on how fast someone can respond to a visual cue, that is based on how fast someone can see something refresh. Every test I've seen shows a noticeable difference at 30ms or greater, they've done double blind testing. People were not able to accurately tell a difference below that, could there be some god-reflex person that can tell 20ms, maybe but not enough people reliably in the testing I've seen. Even 30ms was like only certain people, most older people were around 50ms to even 70ms.

Are there instances where you can see the 15-20ms to 1ms differences, yah in refresh rates probably, but lag is more about response timing than having perfect motion.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --

Last edited by coderguy; 07-08-2019 at 05:10 PM.
coderguy is offline  
post #71 of 102 Old 07-08-2019, 05:17 PM
Senior Member
 
jaychatbonneau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 464
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 302 Post(s)
Liked: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
He was showing 100ms to 1ms, so yah of course, and he was drawing something. However, the video is interesting, but that's a completely different type of latency, the movement in that case is following a finger. With gaming, the movement is a change in movement or a start in movement, not continuous lag, lag only affects the actual changes since you are seeing past fluidity.

That video is not based on how fast someone can respond to a visual cue, that is based on how fast someone can see something refresh. Every test I've seen shows a noticeable difference at 30ms or greater, they've done double blind testing. People were not able to accurately tell a difference below that, could there be some god-reflex person that can tell 20ms, maybe but not enough people reliably in the testing I've seen. Even 30ms was like only certain people, most older people were around 50ms to even 70ms.

Are there instances where you can see the 15-20ms to 1ms differences, yah in refresh rates probably, but lag is more about response timing than having perfect motion.
You missed the point entirely.
jaychatbonneau is offline  
post #72 of 102 Old 07-08-2019, 05:19 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,027
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked: 1316
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaychatbonneau View Post
You missed the point entirely.
No I didn't, in gaming there are algorithms that help with the latency anyhow and there is also online latency that affects it unless you are locally connected.

You are fooling yourself if you think 10-20ms is going to help you on a projector with FPS games, it might help you by 1%, but probably more like 0.00001%. Projectors are not competitive for online 'twitch gaming' anyhow, so not sure why someone would worry about 10-20ms on a projector.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --
coderguy is offline  
post #73 of 102 Old 07-08-2019, 05:48 PM
Senior Member
 
jaychatbonneau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 464
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 302 Post(s)
Liked: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
No I didn't, in gaming there are algorithms that help with the latency anyhow and there is also online latency that affects it unless you are locally connected.

You are fooling yourself if you think 10-20ms is going to help you on a projector with FPS games, it might help you by 1%, but probably more like 0.00001%. Projectors are not competitive for online 'twitch gaming' anyhow, so not sure why someone would worry about 10-20ms on a projector.
A 10 to 20ms difference in input lag is noticeable. Gaming on projectors with high input lag is noticeable and it is very frustrating.Those are facts and nothing you say will make them go away.
jaychatbonneau is offline  
post #74 of 102 Old 07-08-2019, 06:22 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,027
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked: 1316
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaychatbonneau View Post
A 10 to 20ms difference in input lag is noticeable. Gaming on projectors with high input lag is noticeable and it is very frustrating.Those are facts and nothing you say will make them go away.
If you are doing competitive FPS gaming, then you shouldn't be using a projector anyhow, but it's not noticeable in testing for most things. Go google and read the tests, about 30ms is where it first becomes noticeable. A lot of people thought they could notice 10ms, but in the testing it was found out they couldn't.

That is why anything under 30-40ms is generally considered fine, unless you are doing serious competition stuff.

That does not mean they will perform the same at 30ms as 0ms in a competition, that's a different issue because it's not just about people reacting to one series of events, but it becomes the stacking effect (hit left - right - shoot) can be noticeable vs. just hitting one button.

If you are just playing casually then you really shouldn't be worrying about 10ms additional lag on a projector, that's totally silly.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --
coderguy is offline  
post #75 of 102 Old 07-09-2019, 12:56 AM
Advanced Member
 
Luminated67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 871
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 536 Post(s)
Liked: 334
Seriously guys, do we need to argue this to death when we are talking slight differences, let’s agree that the Epson is a bit better in this respect and be done with it.

Black levels : JVC > Epson (but only really noticeable it very dark scenes)
Colours : JVC = Epson (when calibrated)
HDR : Epson > JVC
Gaming : Epson > JVC
Pixel Gap. : JVC > Epson (only really noticeable a close inspection)
Brightness. : Epson > JVC (reduces when calibrated)
Bulbs : Epson >>> JVC (Epson a third of the price)
Customer
Service. : Epson > JVC (If UK experience is similar to US)

Pick your poison and just enjoy watching your movies.

Epson EH-TW9400 - QualGear Fixed Frame 100” - Sony x700 BRP & Panasonic 420 BRP - Sony 1080 AVR - IPL Acoustics M1TLs & IPL Acoustics AVC Pro Centre, Four KEF surrounds & 2 Sub boxes (10” Sub + 10” Passive Radiator)
Luminated67 is online now  
post #76 of 102 Old 07-09-2019, 02:20 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaychatbonneau View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
If calibrated, the colors should look the same on the JVC and the Epson. The JVC usually comes closer to calibrated, out of the box, but color can be adjusted to match either projector. In other words, I would not use this as a decision factor.
If those projectors were calibrated properly colors should have looked the same.

That said. Congratulations.new projectors are fun.
Thanks !

So let’s put this way that out of the box I liked Epson colors better. Also I like a bit warmer Color tones and I know it may be non reference picture but I like it better.

I do not intend calibrating anyway so compared based on my own experience. I have projectors over 15 years so have got some own opinion what colors I like on the screen.

My experience with calibrating is not great since lamp dims over time and calibrated results are broken. Moreover i Didn’t like the calibrated picture and preferred the one I could adjust myself. So as said it is a matter of taste to me.

Some say the calibrated brightness of both projector is same. For me it is hard to imagine since Epson is good 30% or more brighter to my eyes. So loosing such much brightness looks suspicious and is hard to imagine. If that the case then it is not worth it at all.

Some say the biggest issue with Epson comparing to JVC is pixel grid. Well I believe this is actually smallest difference between them. Maybe maybe JVC was a bit more detailed on still pictures. However that could be the impression because it was dimer or had dimer colors. Or JVC has a bit better processing on image smoothing thus looks a bit more sharp. Not sure but the difference was so subtle that for me the sharpness is basically same. I have not played with sharpness enhancements on JVC but Epson had few levels which were soft and very sharp whatever I wanted. Anyhow in the movie sharpness experience is very good on both much better than any FHD projector I have seen.

Keep in mind I have compared only UHD material. Had no time to see SDR FHD performance on any of these. Would my observations be different?

Last edited by Dilema; 07-09-2019 at 02:24 AM.
Dilema is online now  
post #77 of 102 Old 07-09-2019, 06:04 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,565
Mentioned: 232 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11828 Post(s)
Liked: 9358
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
Seriously guys, do we need to argue this to death when we are talking slight differences, let’s agree that the Epson is a bit better in this respect and be done with it.

Black levels : JVC > Epson (but only really noticeable it very dark scenes)
Colours : JVC = Epson (when calibrated)
HDR : Epson > JVC
Gaming : Epson > JVC
Pixel Gap. : JVC > Epson (only really noticeable a close inspection)
Brightness. : Epson > JVC (reduces when calibrated)
Bulbs : Epson >>> JVC (Epson a third of the price)
Customer
Service. : Epson > JVC (If UK experience is similar to US)

Pick your poison and just enjoy watching your movies.
On HDR, the JVC with DCI P3 filter in place is brighter than the Epson, with filter in place. JVC also has the better HDR tone mapping, so I would easily give that to the JVC.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #78 of 102 Old 07-09-2019, 06:10 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,565
Mentioned: 232 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11828 Post(s)
Liked: 9358
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilema View Post
Thanks !

So let’s put this way that out of the box I liked Epson colors better. Also I like a bit warmer Color tones and I know it may be non reference picture but I like it better.

I do not intend calibrating anyway so compared based on my own experience. I have projectors over 15 years so have got some own opinion what colors I like on the screen.

My experience with calibrating is not great since lamp dims over time and calibrated results are broken. Moreover i Didn’t like the calibrated picture and preferred the one I could adjust myself. So as said it is a matter of taste to me.

Some say the calibrated brightness of both projector is same. For me it is hard to imagine since Epson is good 30% or more brighter to my eyes. So loosing such much brightness looks suspicious and is hard to imagine. If that the case then it is not worth it at all.

Some say the biggest issue with Epson comparing to JVC is pixel grid. Well I believe this is actually smallest difference between them. Maybe maybe JVC was a bit more detailed on still pictures. However that could be the impression because it was dimer or had dimer colors. Or JVC has a bit better processing on image smoothing thus looks a bit more sharp. Not sure but the difference was so subtle that for me the sharpness is basically same. I have not played with sharpness enhancements on JVC but Epson had few levels which were soft and very sharp whatever I wanted. Anyhow in the movie sharpness experience is very good on both much better than any FHD projector I have seen.

Keep in mind I have compared only UHD material. Had no time to see SDR FHD performance on any of these. Would my observations be different?
Both are good projectors. From a quality of image standpoint, using a screen size/gain that both can light up, the JVC is the better projector. But the JVC is the more expensive projector. Nothing wrong in liking the Epson. It is amazing just how good of an image you can get for 3k these days.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #79 of 102 Old 07-09-2019, 07:05 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 5
Thanks. Yes they are great. Epson surprised me how good it was. The only weakness comparing to JVC I have seen is black level. But this is of the compromise to shadow details. We have done same scenes and compared how many details were missing on dark objects on JVC versus Epson. But these objects were lighter gray compared to darker grey on rs540.

Other than that for me Epson was better. Even a fan noise. And I have to disagree on HDR. On JVC you have just one hdr profile loaded in. On Epson you have more than ten under one button on remote. Super cool and easy to adjust.
I have not spend much time looking at filter mode on Epson as it was just too dim. However natural mode looked so better and dynamic. Colors were great vivid and bright
Honestly JVC looked very correct but flat comparing to Tw9400 less dynamic.

Therefore you have to spend some time with both machines before making conclusions.
Funny is that dealer guys were sure JVC destroys the Epson. After 3 hours of our tests they were of different opinion 😉.
Dilema is online now  
post #80 of 102 Old 07-09-2019, 07:49 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,565
Mentioned: 232 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11828 Post(s)
Liked: 9358
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilema View Post
Thanks. Yes they are great. Epson surprised me how good it was. The only weakness comparing to JVC I have seen is black level. But this is of the compromise to shadow details. We have done same scenes and compared how many details were missing on dark objects on JVC versus Epson. But these objects were lighter gray compared to darker grey on rs540.

Other than that for me Epson was better. Even a fan noise. And I have to disagree on HDR. On JVC you have just one hdr profile loaded in. On Epson you have more than ten under one button on remote. Super cool and easy to adjust.
I have not spend much time looking at filter mode on Epson as it was just too dim. However natural mode looked so better and dynamic. Colors were great vivid and bright
Honestly JVC looked very correct but flat comparing to Tw9400 less dynamic.

Therefore you have to spend some time with both machines before making conclusions.
Funny is that dealer guys were sure JVC destroys the Epson. After 3 hours of our tests they were of different opinion 😉.
Calibrated, the shadow detail is very good on the JVC. A lot of the time, shadow detail is mistaken for raised black floor. I read about this a lot especially when people talk about the DLP projectors. They say they see details in darker scenes, that they do not see on a JVC. But that is because of raised black floor due to the contrast limitation of the projector, showing detail that was not supposed to be seen in the scene. Just like over exposing a dark picture will allow you to see more detail.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #81 of 102 Old 07-09-2019, 08:58 AM
Advanced Member
 
Luminated67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 871
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 536 Post(s)
Liked: 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
On HDR, the JVC with DCI P3 filter in place is brighter than the Epson, with filter in place. JVC also has the better HDR tone mapping, so I would easily give that to the JVC.
This is one area I can’t agree, the guy who calibrated mine and due to price of machines mostly calibrated JVC and Sony projectors said the Epson was the best of all the e-Shifter at HDR accuracy. In fact if you seen my settings on HDR you’d be surprised how little tweaking was done. He did two setups for me, one accurate one in Cinema mode and the other slightly less accurate in Bright Cinema mode.

Epson EH-TW9400 - QualGear Fixed Frame 100” - Sony x700 BRP & Panasonic 420 BRP - Sony 1080 AVR - IPL Acoustics M1TLs & IPL Acoustics AVC Pro Centre, Four KEF surrounds & 2 Sub boxes (10” Sub + 10” Passive Radiator)
Luminated67 is online now  
post #82 of 102 Old 07-09-2019, 09:07 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jeahrens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Iowa, USA
Posts: 3,758
Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1827 Post(s)
Liked: 1141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
This is one area I can’t agree, the guy who calibrated mine and due to price of machines mostly calibrated JVC and Sony projectors said the Epson was the best of all the e-Shifter at HDR accuracy. In fact if you seen my settings on HDR you’d be surprised how little tweaking was done. He did two setups for me, one accurate one in Cinema mode and the other slightly less accurate in Bright Cinema mode.
Well the Epson is around 1000 lumens filter in place, the JVC e-shift units are 1400-1500 lumens filter in place. My RS520 calibrated perfectly to both REC709 and BT2020. I saw the results and the dE was around 1 (or less) across the board. Can't ask for any better.

jeahrens is offline  
post #83 of 102 Old 07-09-2019, 09:51 AM
Advanced Member
 
Luminated67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 871
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 536 Post(s)
Liked: 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeahrens View Post
Well the Epson is around 1000 lumens filter in place, the JVC e-shift units are 1400-1500 lumens filter in place. My RS520 calibrated perfectly to both REC709 and BT2020. I saw the results and the dE was around 1 (or less) across the board. Can't ask for any better.
I’ll need to ask what Lumens mine was making with filter in place but he said in HDR it’s the most accurate e-shifter on sale. I have to bow to his superior knowledge of all these brands and machines but in his opinion whilst the JVC are unbeatable in black levels he feels the Epson is better at so many other things but the problem is that most enthusiasts crave strong blacks more so than the overall picture which is why JVC have such a huge following.

Epson EH-TW9400 - QualGear Fixed Frame 100” - Sony x700 BRP & Panasonic 420 BRP - Sony 1080 AVR - IPL Acoustics M1TLs & IPL Acoustics AVC Pro Centre, Four KEF surrounds & 2 Sub boxes (10” Sub + 10” Passive Radiator)
Luminated67 is online now  
post #84 of 102 Old 07-09-2019, 10:12 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jeahrens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Iowa, USA
Posts: 3,758
Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1827 Post(s)
Liked: 1141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
I’ll need to ask what Lumens mine was making with filter in place but he said in HDR it’s the most accurate e-shifter on sale. I have to bow to his superior knowledge of all these brands and machines but in his opinion whilst the JVC are unbeatable in black levels he feels the Epson is better at so many other things but the problem is that most enthusiasts crave strong blacks more so than the overall picture which is why JVC have such a huge following.
I'm sorry but your calibrator is mistaken. While I have zero doubt the Epson calibrates very well or as well the JVCs, there is a mountain of data on the JVC e-shift models all showing them to calibrate with excellent results for both REC709 and BT2020. You're welcome to search through the owners threads or contact calibrators on this forum. This is very well documented at this point.

The Epson's HDR controls on the x050 lineup do look to be easier and more intuitive. But aside from overall brightness the JVC X790 is going to be the better unit. However availability on the RS540/X790 is supposedly done. So unless you can find a dealer with one in stock, your next closest competitor JVC wise is the NX5. And except for B-stock pricing it's a not insignificant bump in cost.

jeahrens is offline  
post #85 of 102 Old 07-09-2019, 11:10 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,565
Mentioned: 232 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11828 Post(s)
Liked: 9358
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
This is one area I can’t agree, the guy who calibrated mine and due to price of machines mostly calibrated JVC and Sony projectors said the Epson was the best of all the e-Shifter at HDR accuracy. In fact if you seen my settings on HDR you’d be surprised how little tweaking was done. He did two setups for me, one accurate one in Cinema mode and the other slightly less accurate in Bright Cinema mode.
Cinema mode on the Epson is with the filter in place. Bright Cinema is without the filter. The JVC is quite a bit brighter in HDR mode with the filter. The bright Cinema mode is less accurate compared to cinema mode as in de's above 3.0 once calibrated and does not use the filter, so color space is smaller, as in less colors available.

Also a comment was made earlier, by another poster that he could not believe the Epson lost that many lumens, when calibrated. That is a common trait for LCD projectors. They have a lot of lumens with poor color performance, usually green cast to the picture and once calibrated, lose a ton of lumens.

Last edited by Mike Garrett; 07-09-2019 at 11:13 AM.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #86 of 102 Old 07-09-2019, 11:21 AM
Advanced Member
 
Luminated67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 871
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 536 Post(s)
Liked: 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeahrens View Post
I'm sorry but your calibrator is mistaken. While I have zero doubt the Epson calibrates very well or as well the JVCs, there is a mountain of data on the JVC e-shift models all showing them to calibrate with excellent results for both REC709 and BT2020. You're welcome to search through the owners threads or contact calibrators on this forum. This is very well documented at this point.

The Epson's HDR controls on the x050 lineup do look to be easier and more intuitive. But aside from overall brightness the JVC X790 is going to be the better unit. However availability on the RS540/X790 is supposedly done. So unless you can find a dealer with one in stock, your next closest competitor JVC wise is the NX5. And except for B-stock pricing it's a not insignificant bump in cost.
Ok we will agree to disagree on this one. I prefer to believe my guy over anyone on a forum especially with his track record and who uses his services.

Epson EH-TW9400 - QualGear Fixed Frame 100” - Sony x700 BRP & Panasonic 420 BRP - Sony 1080 AVR - IPL Acoustics M1TLs & IPL Acoustics AVC Pro Centre, Four KEF surrounds & 2 Sub boxes (10” Sub + 10” Passive Radiator)
Luminated67 is online now  
post #87 of 102 Old 07-09-2019, 11:39 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
zombie10k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,718
Mentioned: 159 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5238 Post(s)
Liked: 5493
These folks have excellent, objective reviews on both models and are using high end equipment for color cal + lumens measurements.

you can use google translate on the links:

Epson 9400/5050
https://hdtvpolska.com/epson-eh-tw94...hz/?showfull=1

JVC RS540/790
https://hdtvpolska.com/jvc-dla-rs540...dr/?showfull=1


On the JVC they found a minimal output difference between no filters (~94% P3 vs ~97% with filter)



The Epson is brighter and hits ~88% without the filter, 100% with filter but takes a massive hit at ~55% for the filter. The 88% is close enough and not worth engaging the filter for that much light loss.




They measured the Epson at ~4500:1 native and 34K:1 with the DI.



The JVC is ~37K:1 Native and ~ 400K:1 with the DI . In a light treated room, the difference in contrast is definitely evident. The Epson does much better though than the XPR DLP's that are barely cracking 1000:1 native.



From the comments earlier, shadow detail is function of proper gamma calibration. With both projectors properly calibrated, they will appear more similar than not in this particular area.

The Epson is great bargain, especially if they lower the price to the 2.5K MSRP range later in year after IFA/Cedia. It's a shame JVC didn't continue building the 540/790 and lower the price as well to compete in this price territory.

hopefully some of the rumors of the 4K native EPSON are true and reveal at IFA. i'd like to see a native 4K model + laser under 10K.
Mike Garrett likes this.
zombie10k is offline  
post #88 of 102 Old 07-09-2019, 11:53 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jeahrens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Iowa, USA
Posts: 3,758
Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1827 Post(s)
Liked: 1141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
Ok we will agree to disagree on this one. I prefer to believe my guy over anyone on a forum especially with his track record and who uses his services.
The forum is populated by some of the most talented calibrators and reviewers in the field. While I'm sure your guy is excellent, ignoring the large amount of data that contradicts your opinion/their statement isn't going to make it less valid. I appreciate your enthusiasm for the Epson product, but it does not calibrate "better" or have more lumens with the filter than the RS540/X790.

jeahrens is offline  
post #89 of 102 Old 07-09-2019, 11:54 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,565
Mentioned: 232 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11828 Post(s)
Liked: 9358
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
Ok we will agree to disagree on this one. I prefer to believe my guy over anyone on a forum especially with his track record and who uses his services.
You are welcome to believe what you want to believe, but the facts clearly say otherwise. I have no reason to support one over the other.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #90 of 102 Old 07-09-2019, 11:55 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Calibrated, the shadow detail is very good on the JVC. A lot of the time, shadow detail is mistaken for raised black floor. I read about this a lot especially when people talk about the DLP projectors. They say they see details in darker scenes, that they do not see on a JVC. But that is because of raised black floor due to the contrast limitation of the projector, showing detail that was not supposed to be seen in the scene. Just like over exposing a dark picture will allow you to see more detail.
Well the lower level of shadow details bothered me. Thus dealer guys were trying to increase settings in JVC to improve it however not to the level it was comparable.

I remember the scene with black big limousine in the middle of screen. On JVC it was totally black that made me feel there is missing something. Then we paused the player and switched to Epson. Limousine was also perfectly black but we could see all reflections on the side of the car what looked much more natural.

Also when it comes to brightness. The little greenish tone on LCD is when they run on the brightest touch/dynamic modes. In Cinema modes like natural there is absolutely no way of greenish. Actually I have noticed this on JVC on the default HDR mode (I think it is called thx). I have pointed this out to dealer guys and they saw that too on the black huts of solders as I have mentioned in my initial post here. You need to have good eyes to catch that.

Honestly if JVC would be cheaper than TW9400 I still would probably take Epson. Sorry but I believe my eyes. To me RS540 was not convincing over cheaper but newer competitor.

I was considering to buy X590 which is still available where I live but since it is even dimmer and less contrasty than Rs540 this is absolutely no go for me.
Dilema is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off