Rumors for Texas Instruments 0.95" Native 4K DMD for DLP - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 66 Old 05-02-2019, 10:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Rumors for Texas Instruments 0.95" Native 4K DMD for DLP

Just thought I would ask if anyone has heard any more rumors about Texas Instruments development/release of a Native 4K DMD which could be used for DLP projectors?

Is it possible they could show such a chip at CEDIA 2019?

It has been over 3 years ..January 2016 since TI presented the 0.67" chip and by the time CEDIA 2019 rolls around it will be closer to 4 years.


With other technologies offering Native 4K like Sony and JVC it seems like TI really needs to "up their game" and release a FULL Native 4K chip.

Would really great to see this type of upgrade.
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post #2 of 66 Old 05-02-2019, 12:31 PM
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Honestly after having seen some 0.66" 4K DLP (2716 x 1528 native) in high-end projectors (with great lenses) like the BenQ LK970 and BenQ HT9060, I'm not sure that a native 4K DLP is even worth them pursuing.

The LK970 and HT9060 were both already sharper than the native 4K JVC NX9 that I saw.

I think DLP need to work on contrast, not more resolution.
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post #3 of 66 Old 05-02-2019, 12:50 PM
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I think DLP need to work on contrast, not more resolution.
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post #4 of 66 Old 05-02-2019, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Honestly after having seen some 0.66" 4K DLP (2716 x 1528 native) in high-end projectors (with great lenses) like the BenQ LK970 and BenQ HT9060, I'm not sure that a native 4K DLP is even worth them pursuing.

The LK970 and HT9060 were both already sharper than the native 4K JVC NX9 that I saw.

I think DLP need to work on contrast, not more resolution.
I saw the JVC NX9 the other day and was impressed with the image.

The HT9060 REALLY interests me right now and to hear that you feel it is sharper the the NX9 is amazing to hear.

My current projector is a 1080P DLP Marantz 15-S1 so I am exploring a possible change and since the main use is sports I felt that motion is better with DLP... at least that was what I thought back when I bought the Marantz.
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post #5 of 66 Old 05-02-2019, 01:13 PM
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I saw the JVC NX9 the other day and was impressed with the image.

The HT9060 REALLY interests me right now and to hear that you feel it is sharper the the NX9 is amazing to hear.

My current projector is a 1080P DLP Marantz 15-S1 so I am exploring a possible change and since the main use is sports I felt that motion is better with DLP... at least that was what I thought back when I bought the Marantz.
Some people have been also recently testing the LK970 and LK990 and multiple people have found it sharper than their JVC RS4500/Z1 as well.
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post #6 of 66 Old 05-02-2019, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
Honestly after having seen some 0.66" 4K DLP (2716 x 1528 native) in high-end projectors (with great lenses) like the BenQ LK970 and BenQ HT9060, I'm not sure that a native 4K DLP is even worth them pursuing.

The LK970 and HT9060 were both already sharper than the native 4K JVC NX9 that I saw.

I think DLP need to work on contrast, not more resolution.
Not being E-shift will help get the lag down to much lower numbers for gaming. Also the native 4K chip should have more than double the native contrast of the 0.66 chip.
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post #7 of 66 Old 05-02-2019, 08:58 PM - Thread Starter
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I just think it would be a step forward in the projection world for a Native 4K DMD chip.

Geez I was just at Best Buy today and they have native 8K TVs on display...... seems the flat panel producers are WAY ahead of the content providers.

I often think at times that network TV like ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX are going to "bypass" 4K and go directly to 8K for sports.

Why invest in 4K cameras and infrastructure when 8K TVs are now in the stores.
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post #8 of 66 Old 05-02-2019, 09:33 PM
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I just think it would be a step forward in the projection world for a Native 4K DMD chip.

Geez I was just at Best Buy today and they have native 8K TVs on display...... seems the flat panel producers are WAY ahead of the content providers.

I often think at times that network TV like ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX are going to "bypass" 4K and go directly to 8K for sports.

Why invest in 4K cameras and infrastructure when 8K TVs are now in the stores.
8k on projectors is like megapixels to cameras, doesn't really mean anything unless the source and lens make it mean something.
I'm not interested in 8k when there is still so much more that needs to be done to standardize on 4k content.

My 20 megapixel Kodak takes worse pictures than a 15-year old 6 megapixel Nikon DSLR, thanks to the larger lens.

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post #9 of 66 Old 05-03-2019, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
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I guess the point I was trying to make was that the Networks ALL invested in either 720P or 1080i cameras and infrastructure in order to provide HD resolution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-d..._United_States

THEN shortly thereafter it was "reveal" the these two resolution formats were not really "True HD" and that 1080P is "really" FULL HD which promoted the sale of 1080P displays/projectors

4K or 2160P has been sold as the "next step" although there are few networks that have jumped into that 2160P pool... as I recall it was when pro sports began to broadcast in either 720P or 1080i that helped sales of "HD" displays/projectors.

Now BEFORE 2160P has been adopted by any broadcast network we are seeing 8K or 4320P panels and 8K e-shift projectors.

I do not think that any major network would invest in 2160P equipment when they see what display devices are now on the market and will only grow by this time next year. I would expect that every display device producers will be shown 4320P panels at CES 2020.

How would you explain to shareholders that you converted all your equipment to 2160P but you look across the street to see you competitors broadcasting in 4320P.

The content providers are placed in a very difficult spot by the display producers .... do we need 8K instead of 4K probably not but from a marketing perspective you would be in a secondary position if you could only do 4K when your competition does 8K.

I would be just as happy if the networks made the decision to convert to the 2,160P format and if folks wanted "8K" then they could rely on the device to upscale the native 2,160P signal to 4,320P.
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post #10 of 66 Old 05-03-2019, 02:02 PM
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Not being E-shift will help get the lag down to much lower numbers for gaming. Also the native 4K chip should have more than double the native contrast of the 0.66 chip.
Great point, Mike. You're clearly in control here. Yes, if for example the .95 chip were installed in something like the HT9060, it could yield a native contrast of around 3,000:1 and with the 9060's dimming at 4X, that would yield a dynamic contrast of 12,000:1.

The sharpness on the 9060 is ridiculously sharp, so the added benefit of even more resolution in a native chip would be a bonus.
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post #11 of 66 Old 05-03-2019, 02:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Great point, Mike. You're clearly in control here. Yes, if for example the .95 chip were installed in something like the HT9060, it could yield a native contrast of around 3,000:1 and with the 9060's dimming at 4X, that would yield a dynamic contrast of 12,000:1.

The sharpness on the 9060 is ridiculously sharp, so the added benefit of even more resolution in a native chip would be a bonus.
Would it be possible for BenQ to be able to use the existing chassis and lens in the HT9060 and simply upgrade the projector with the 0.95" chip?

or do you think it would require a completely new chassis and lens in order for a native 4K chip to work?
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post #12 of 66 Old 05-03-2019, 02:57 PM
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Would it be possible for BenQ to be able to use the existing chassis and lens in the HT9060 and simply upgrade the projector with the 0.95" chip?

or do you think it would require a completely new chassis and lens in order for a native 4K chip to work?
I would guess the case is large enough, but with the native chip, BenQ can remove the actuator and make more space
--unless ....they decide to keep it in there for ________???

That would look crazy sharp, native 4kx2, coming from a single chip, with native P3, 1700 plus calibrated lumens, quiet operation, 12,000:1 dynamic contrast, and no legitimate RBE concerns in a SOLID STATE projector!!! But first, does any one brand hold a patent for Faux 8K/8k e-shift? I don't know the answer to that, really.
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post #13 of 66 Old 05-03-2019, 04:32 PM - Thread Starter
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I agree a Native 4K DLP 0.95" HLD LED maybe HDMI 2.1 would be a really nice projector.

I thought there was an AVS member that mentioned some "info" about a possible new chip from TI but I can not remember what thread it was in.

As I recall there was some mention that the information was provided to him on a confidential basis which is very understandable and those types of arrangements must be honored.

Still is very intriguing to think about a possible Native 4K 0.95" chip and the improvements it would offer.

Also I would think that going on to 4 years in Jan 2020 is a VERY long time since the current 0.67" chip was revealed.

In the world we now live in which technology is changing at such a rapid pace it just seems to me that there must be newer chips ready for market.
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post #14 of 66 Old 05-07-2019, 07:42 AM
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Not being E-shift will help get the lag down to much lower numbers for gaming. Also the native 4K chip should have more than double the native contrast of the 0.66 chip.
I don't agree the native contrast gain will be that much given the same lightpath. In fact there may be minimal to no gain in native contrast.

Generally with DLP you get more contrast with a lower density of mirrors. However an 0.95" native 4k DMD and the 0.66" XPR DMD would have near identical density due the native resolution difference. The density of both would be closer to an 0.47" 1080p DMD which historically also hasn't been great at native contrast for the same reason - you'd need the big bucks 1.38" native 4k DMD to significantly reduce density from the 66XPR chip.

The only wildcard is the actuator; there is a chance the actuator is increasing internal reflections and reducing contrast, but I'd think TI would account for that and spec a part that would minimize any internal reflections.

The main known benefits for native 4k 0.95" DMD would be:
* Even sharper than already sharp 66XPR
* Native 24fps motion at 120hz
* Better quality 3d than 0.66 xpr chip offers due to easier upscale
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post #15 of 66 Old 05-07-2019, 07:46 AM
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I don't agree the native contrast gain will be that much given the same lightpath. In fact there may be minimal to no gain.

Generally with DLP you get more contrast with a lower density of mirrors. However an 0.95" native 4k DMD and the 0.66" XPR DMD would have near identical density due the native resolution difference. The density of both would be similar to an 0.47" 1080p DMD which historically also hasn't been great at native contrast for the same reason.

The only wildcard is the actuator; there is a chance the actuator is increasing internal reflections and reducing contrast, but I'd think TI would account for that and spec a part that would minimize any internal reflections.
My source on this one is pretty good and it was reported to me 2,400:1 native. I guess we will see. I think for DLP to be dominant in the 3K plus HT arena, they will have to improve native contrast.
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post #16 of 66 Old 05-07-2019, 07:49 AM
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My source on this one is pretty good and it was reported to me 2,400:1 native. I guess we will see. I think for DLP to be dominant in the 3K plus HT arena, they will have to improve native contrast.
DPI claims their new high contrast version of the 66XPR 4k laser which has both internal lightpath and lens contrast tweaks hits 2000:1 native and they are conservative with their native contrast specs (they only claim 1000:1 on the standard version of the same projector). So a manufacturer claiming 2400:1 would not be unprecedented if the projector had a contrast optimized lightpath (for modern hdr content requires a high lumens light source able to absorb the brightness hit from contrast opts, like laser).

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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
I don't agree the native contrast gain will be that much given the same lightpath. In fact there may be minimal to no gain in native contrast.

Generally with DLP you get more contrast with a lower density of mirrors. However an 0.95" native 4k DMD and the 0.66" XPR DMD would have near identical density due the native resolution difference. The density of both would be closer to an 0.47" 1080p DMD which historically also hasn't been great at native contrast for the same reason - you'd need the big bucks 1.38" native 4k DMD to significantly reduce density from the 66XPR chip.

The only wildcard is the actuator; there is a chance the actuator is increasing internal reflections and reducing contrast, but I'd think TI would account for that and spec a part that would minimize any internal reflections.

The main known benefits for native 4k 0.95" DMD would be:
* Even sharper than already sharp 66XPR
* Native 24fps motion at 120hz
* Better quality 3d than 0.66 xpr chip offers due to easier upscale
I doubt anyone will be able to tell a difference in sharpness when watching movie content, so little to no benefit.
3D is practically dead here in the US, so only about 10% or less of the market will care.
Lag will be reduced, so the gaming market, which keeps growing will certainly care.
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post #18 of 66 Old 05-07-2019, 07:53 AM
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I doubt anyone will be able to tell a difference in sharpness when watching movie content, so little to no benefit.
3D is practically dead here in the US, so only about 10% or less of the market will care.
Lag will be reduced, so the gaming market, which keeps growing will certainly care.
I think the biggest benefit to 2d movie content will be better motion. Motion is already great on the latest iteration of dlp 4k projectors but native 4k DMD should be even smoother. Given how sharp the 66XPR is the native 4k probably will not be that much sharper but maybe it might avoid some occasional artifacts on patterned surfaces etc that might hypothetically trip up the shifting processing - rare of course but a potential improvement. Also for PC users native 4k can improve font rendering etc

Input lag will probably be able to be reduced though it's worth noting some of the recent 4k 66XPR units like the BenQs are at 58ms and this is pretty average for 1080p DLP projectors as well. However there are faster 1080p ones for manufacturers that made an effort of low input lag and this will be more possible with the native 4k DMD - but no guarantee and will differ model to model depending on processing selected.

Again all of this stuff is not exactly necessary though which is probably why this DMD was not a priority to release. It's going to be a lot more expensive than the 66xpr both due to the DMD itself and the larger lens size needed and I'm not convinced the payoff will be worth the extra cost for most - but for those who really want native 4k for the sake of native 4k or for specialized circumstances like PC i think it's an option TI should definitely make available.

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post #19 of 66 Old 05-07-2019, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
I think the biggest benefit to 2d movie content will be better motion. Motion is already great on the latest iteration of dlp 4k projectors but native 4k DMD should be even smoother. Given how sharp the 66XPR is the native 4k probably will not be that much sharper but maybe it might avoid some occasional artifacts on patterned surfaces etc that might hypothetically trip up the shifting processing - rare of course but a potential improvement. Also for PC users native 4k can improve font rendering etc

Input lag will probably be able to be reduced though it's worth noting some of the recent 4k 66XPR units like the BenQs are at 58ms and this is pretty average for 1080p DLP projectors as well. However there are faster 1080p ones for manufacturers that made an effort of low input lag and this will be more possible with the native 4k DMD - but no guarantee and will differ model to model depending on processing selected.

Again all of this stuff is not exactly necessary though which is probably why this DMD was not a priority to release. It's going to be a lot more expensive than the 66xpr both due to the DMD itself and the larger lens size needed and I'm not convinced the payoff will be worth the extra cost for most - but for those who really want native 4k for the sake of native 4k or for specialized circumstances like PC i think it's an option TI should definitely make available.
Most of the people that I talk to that want a projector that they can game on, will not go for a projector with 58ms.
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post #20 of 66 Old 05-07-2019, 08:25 AM
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Most of the people that I talk to that want a projector that they can game on, will not go for a projector with 58ms.
Frankly 58ms is fine unless you are truly into esport competitive gaming. That's 3.5 frames at 60 frames per second. People's skill would be more of a barrier than input lag at 58ms.

Also, someone who is truly that picky about input lag wouldn't want the motion blur/ghosting (however small) of LCD/LCOS either if they could avoid it and go with a zero blur/ghosting tech like DLP. The best projector for gaming right now is something like the Vivitek H9090 which is 17ms (1 frame) and zero motion blur plus allows for marathon sessions without lamp life concerns due to it's LEDs, there is currently no 4k projector that comes close to matching it for overall gaming performance.

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Frankly 58ms is fine unless you are truly into esport competitive gaming. That's 3.5 frames at 60 frames per second.

Also, someone who is truly that picky about input lag wouldn't want the motion blur of LCD/LCOS either if they could avoid it and go with a zero blur/ghosting tech like DLP. The best projector for gaming right now is something like the Vivitek H9090 which is 17ms (1 frame) and zero motion blur plus allows for marathon sessions without lamp life concerns due to it's LEDs, there is currently no 4k projector that comes close to matching it for overall gaming performance.
I did not say anything about LCOS/SXRD, just reported that most people I talk to that want to game on a projector would not be happy with 58ms. Heck, you see complaints on AVSF, if it is above 40ms.
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post #22 of 66 Old 05-07-2019, 08:32 AM
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I did not say anything about LCOS/SXRD, just reported that most people I talk to that want to game on a projector would not be happy with 58ms. Heck, you see complaints on AVSF, if it is above 40ms.
Yeah IMO that's likely due to people parroting what others have said and placebo effect more than real world impact. Again unless you are an esport champ like Ninja 58ms isn't going to be a barrier to your gaming. "Lost again, must be the input lag!" Suuuure
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Frankly 58ms is fine unless you are truly into esport competitive gaming.
Disagree. I am a pretty casual gamer who sticks to single-player games but 58 msec is about twice what I consider to be the acceptable level of input lag. The feeling of disconnect between controller input and visual feedback is immediately noticeable at 58 msec.
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post #24 of 66 Old 05-07-2019, 08:41 AM
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Yeah IMO that's likely due to people parroting what others have said and placebo effect more than real world impact. Again unless you are an esport champ like Ninja 58ms isn't going to be a barrier to your gaming. "Lost again, must be the input lag!" Suuuure
As someone who has been into competitive gaming since 2007, you can DEFINITELY tell a difference between 1ms and 58ms.

There is no comparison, especially if you are going to play a fast paced shooter. I went from 16ms monitors to 1ms monitors and there was a substantial difference, I cannot imagine playing anything semi competitive with 58ms.

Also Ninja is just a streamer, not an esport champ. His only "wins" are in unofficial launch events, with stacked teams.

If I was going to play single player RPG's or not anything competitive, then I would be able to adjust to the ms (but even something like Dark Souls with a 50ms projector would be much harder). But you would definitely never find me trying to play any kind of FPS with a 60ms display, that would be abysmal. Any kind of fighter/shooter/timing focus action game like Dark Souls would definitely feel horrible on a high ms projector. But story driven games, or single player RPG's wouldnt be too impacted.
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As someone who has been into competitive gaming since 2007, you can DEFINITELY tell a difference between 1ms and 58ms.

There is no comparison, especially if you are going to play a fast paced shooter. I went from 16ms monitors to 1ms monitors and there was a substantial difference, I cannot imagine playing anything semi competitive with 58ms.

Also Ninja is just a streamer, not an esport champ. His only "wins" are in unofficial launch events, with stacked teams.

If I was going to play single player RPG's or not anything competitive, then I would be able to adjust to the ms (but even something like Dark Souls with a 50ms projector would be much harder). But you would definitely never find me trying to play any kind of FPS with a 60ms display, that would be abysmal. Any kind of fighter/shooter/timing focus action game like Dark Souls would definitely feel horrible on a high ms projector. But story driven games, or single player RPG's wouldnt be too impacted.
We are talking projectors here and not monitors.

That means most gamers will be using controller and console simply due to the ergonomics and aesthetics. Modern console FPS have high input lag mitigation built in as many TVs do have high input lag. On Xbox One I actually did not notice any appreciable difference in responsiveness going from 50ms to 17ms projector with the online FPS I was playing at the time. The area a gamer in this most common situation would likely experience input lag is with retro games from the 70s/80s as those often require twitch reflexes and were not programmed with input lag mitigation.
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post #26 of 66 Old 05-07-2019, 10:23 PM - Thread Starter
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My source on this one is pretty good and it was reported to me 2,400:1 native. I guess we will see. I think for DLP to be dominant in the 3K plus HT arena, they will have to improve native contrast.
Did your source get you any indication of the time frame for a 0.95" chip?

Also will it be UHD 3840 x 2160 or 4K 4096 x 2160?

If it is 4096 x 2160 will that produce black bars on a 16 x 9 screen?
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post #27 of 66 Old 05-08-2019, 07:40 AM
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Did your source get you any indication of the time frame for a 0.95" chip?

Also will it be UHD 3840 x 2160 or 4K 4096 x 2160?

If it is 4096 x 2160 will that produce black bars on a 16 x 9 screen?
Unless you are ready to spend $25,000 street so on a projector I wouldn't get too excited about a .95" chip because even if they are announced this year thats probably what the entry level projectors with it in 2020 are going to cost

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post #28 of 66 Old 05-08-2019, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMC57 View Post
Did your source get you any indication of the time frame for a 0.95" chip?

Also will it be UHD 3840 x 2160 or 4K 4096 x 2160?

If it is 4096 x 2160 will that produce black bars on a 16 x 9 screen?
No on the time frame, but I expect it to be soon. Will be 4096 x 2160. Yes and no on the black bars. Yes, you will have them, if using 16:9 screen, but no, they will not be on the screen. They would be on the frame and or wall.
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post #29 of 66 Old 05-08-2019, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
Unless you are ready to spend $25,000 street so on a projector I wouldn't get too excited about a .95" chip because even if they are announced this year thats probably what the entry level projectors with it in 2020 are going to cost
As I posted earlier, these will be for the commercial market and will first appear in DCI projectors. I would expect the entry level point to be $50,000 MSRP. I agree with you, anybody expecting an HT projector with this chip, to appear in 2020 will most likely be very disappointed. But the sooner these start appearing on the commercial side, the sooner they will appear on the HT side.
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post #30 of 66 Old 05-08-2019, 09:22 AM
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Yeah IMO that's likely due to people parroting what others have said and placebo effect more than real world impact. Again unless you are an esport champ like Ninja 58ms isn't going to be a barrier to your gaming. "Lost again, must be the input lag!" Suuuure


I’m no ninja (never even been to japan) but I somewhat disagree here. For some people, 60ms won’t be noticeable. But everyone perceives lag differently and I’ll tell you from my own personal experience that anything above 30ms is noticeable to me. Of course, I’ve been playing games most of my life (I’m 40 now) and I play plenty of classic and twitch games as well as online multiplayer and campaigns at their higher difficulty levels.

And then there’s the question of competitiveness. Regardless whether or not you ‘feel’ the lag it is there. Some gamers want to know that they have every competitive advantage even if their thumbs are made of stone.

What to do if you find yourself stuck with no hope of rescue:
Consider yourself lucky that life has been good to you so far. Alternatively, if life hasn't been good to you so far, which given your present circumstances seems to be more likely, consider yourself lucky that it won't be troubling you much longer...

-- Excerpt from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
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