New HT build: 180" 1.5 gain screen, which projector (nx5,nx7,695es) - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 52 Old 05-15-2019, 04:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by tddk View Post
The lk990 though is getting dinged pretty hard for color accuracy in the other threads. Most of the data I read in that thread highlights issues with that projector in terms of accuracy, which as primarily movies, is something I care about.



I plan on using madvr for tone mapping, shouldn't that help improve the HDR performance?

I did some preliminary measurements last night and it’s not as bad as has been initially reported, at all.
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post #32 of 52 Old 05-15-2019, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by tddk View Post
The lk990 though is getting dinged pretty hard for color accuracy in the other threads. Most of the data I read in that thread highlights issues with that projector in terms of accuracy, which as primarily movies, is something I care about.

I plan on using madvr for tone mapping, shouldn't that help improve the HDR performance?
You can't have it all unless you are willing to shell out BIG bucks

The LK990 is in your budget, and will light up your screen - while also supporting 4K HDR & 3D. There really isn't much else out there that compares. The color gamut isn't as wide as some of the less bright options, but that will be a whole lot less noticeable than a dark picture in HDR.

If you like the idea of 180" and don't want to spend a small fortune, the LK990 is bar none your best bet.
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post #33 of 52 Old 05-15-2019, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
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You can't have it all unless you are willing to shell out BIG bucks

The LK990 is in your budget, and will light up your screen - while also supporting 4K HDR & 3D. There really isn't much else out there that compares. The color gamut isn't as wide as some of the less bright options, but that will be a whole lot less noticeable than a dark picture in HDR.

If you like the idea of 180" and don't want to spend a small fortune, the LK990 is bar none your best bet.
Starting to see that as a lead option, just now debating if i should back off hdr until ceida this year to see what may come out
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post #34 of 52 Old 05-15-2019, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I did some preliminary measurements last night and it’s not as bad as has been initially reported, at all.
good to hear, looking forward to seeing your data dave, appreciate the help as always!
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post #35 of 52 Old 05-16-2019, 06:36 AM
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Hi All,

I dont want to repeat too much in this forum, as this is mainly to get projector advice or potentially projector/screen advice.

A friend gave me his old Elite Screens ezFrame CineGray 5D 180". I have a 22x16 room with 12' ceiling (schematics can be seen in new build thread linked below).

I am debating which projector to get and am torn. I am hoping the 1.5x gain will assit with brightness given the screen size.

Between an Nx5, 695es, or lk990, which would be the best option.

Some friends are stating it may be necessary to ditch the screen and get a different one for 4k UHD at this time due to brightness.

I appreciate your input!

edit: added benq's to the list. Removed nx7, added lk990.

New build thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...icated-ht.html
I'm a big fan of JVC projectors especially for their black levels. But for your screen size, I'd be going LK970 or LK990. The contrast levels won't be nearly as good as what you get on JVC, but those JVC and that Sony (which is dimmer than JVC even) won't do the job of lighting that size screen at all. My friend has had an RS500 on his 186" screen and it was ok but not great. He just upgraded to an LK970 and is quite thrilled.

Based on the feedback between LK970 and LK990, it's not clear but the 970 may be a better deal if you can find one. Sounds like the 990 has some sort of "brilliant color" mode that can't be disabled without losing 60% of the rated lumens and the 970 does not have this problem.

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post #36 of 52 Old 05-16-2019, 09:54 AM
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FWIW as far as the math goes. An NX5 at close throw would produce 25fL (85nits) in high bulb mode on a 180" 16:9 1.5 gain screen.

After 30% bulb loss that would be down to 17.5fL (60nits).

This is based on 1600 lumens which is about what my NX5 did at close throw on my screen after calibration.

IMO this is more than enough as I run my NX5 on a 1.0 gain screen at 20fL (70nits) and find it plenty bright for SDR and HDR (with madVR).

But of course that is just my opinion. It's more than bright enough, but more brightness of course wouldn't be bad. But personally I could never deal with rainbow effect if that was the alternative.
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post #37 of 52 Old 05-16-2019, 10:08 AM
 
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I'm a big fan of JVC projectors especially for their black levels. But for your screen size, I'd be going LK970 or LK990. The contrast levels won't be nearly as good as what you get on JVC, but those JVC and that Sony (which is dimmer than JVC even) won't do the job of lighting that size screen at all. My friend has had an RS500 on his 186" screen and it was ok but not great. He just upgraded to an LK970 and is quite thrilled.



Based on the feedback between LK970 and LK990, it's not clear but the 970 may be a better deal if you can find one. Sounds like the 990 has some sort of "brilliant color" mode that can't be disabled without losing 60% of the rated lumens and the 970 does not have this problem.

This shouldn’t be an issue after taking some preliminary measurements with it on the other night. I’m sure this was also exaggerated by Javs’ meter’s inability to measure laser phosphor properly.
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post #38 of 52 Old 05-16-2019, 03:50 PM
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FWIW as far as the math goes. An NX5 at close throw would produce 25fL (85nits) in high bulb mode on a 180" 16:9 1.5 gain screen.

After 30% bulb loss that would be down to 17.5fL (60nits).

This is based on 1600 lumens which is about what my NX5 did at close throw on my screen after calibration.

IMO this is more than enough as I run my NX5 on a 1.0 gain screen at 20fL (70nits) and find it plenty bright for SDR and HDR (with madVR).

But of course that is just my opinion. It's more than bright enough, but more brightness of course wouldn't be bad. But personally I could never deal with rainbow effect if that was the alternative.
It's still BARELY enough (borderline), will work ok in a batcave, but the question becomes how many hours will he put on it, and how often does someone want to change the bulb.
When you run a bulb in high, it will last about 1/4th to 1/6th as long in my experience (not 1/2 as long), but these JVC bulbs are supposedly pretty good so who knows.

Of course there is always the double stack option (though there are a lot of issues with it IMO, but it can be done).

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I don’t think everyone should be short changing @DavidHir ’s suggestion of the new laser Epson light cannon too. I’d love to get hold of one to see what it can do.
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post #40 of 52 Old 05-21-2019, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
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What do folks think about dropping down to a e-shift 6050UB instead until the brightness on native 4k increase in the next 1-2 years?
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post #41 of 52 Old 05-21-2019, 02:40 PM
 
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What do folks think about dropping down to a e-shift 6050UB instead until the brightness on native 4k increase in the next 1-2 years?

I think if you listen to all the FUD and ignore the LK990 then you’re doing yourself a disservice. Unless of course you’re very sensitive to RBE.
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post #42 of 52 Old 05-21-2019, 02:49 PM
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This shouldn’t be an issue after taking some preliminary measurements with it on the other night. I’m sure this was also exaggerated by Javs’ meter’s inability to measure laser phosphor properly.
Wrong if that were true ALL modes would measure bad. But brilliant colour is definitely bad while I can get a great calibration (according to my meter) with it off.

If you don't agree please post the data to prove me wrong as I have asked you half a dozen times now.

Your subjective opinion is not acceptable in the face of my data. Post the data to counter it, or don't....

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Originally Posted by tddk View Post
What do folks think about dropping down to a e-shift 6050UB instead until the brightness on native 4k increase in the next 1-2 years?
Might not be a bad way to go. See if you can buy it from someplace that will let you return it, and then demo it in your theater.
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post #44 of 52 Old 05-21-2019, 03:06 PM
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What do folks think about dropping down to a e-shift 6050UB instead until the brightness on native 4k increase in the next 1-2 years?
You could get an Epson 5040ub refurb, though it takes some patience and you have to setup a site monitor service to parse the page to let you know when in stock.
You have to be quick.

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post #45 of 52 Old 05-21-2019, 08:02 PM
 
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New HT build: 180" 1.5 gain screen, which projector (nx5,nx7,695es)

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Wrong if that were true ALL modes would measure bad. But brilliant colour is definitely bad while I can get a great calibration (according to my meter) with it off.

If you don't agree please post the data to prove me wrong as I have asked you half a dozen times now.

Your subjective opinion is not acceptable in the face of my data. Post the data to counter it, or don't....

This quote from me in the HT9060 vs LK990 thread is probably relevant here, and elsewhere where the FUD Factor is high:

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With all due respect Javs (and Kris), and I mean that wholeheartedly. I just don’t understand the tech involved totally in what these RGBY laser phosphor projectors are doing! I can’t send you any real different numbers than you’ve already posted and that’s the main reasons why I haven’t a lot, other than when I’ve tamed some of the misunderstood issues.

I’ve tried to hint at this numerous times and it’s just glossed over. When I first got a UHZ65 I was absolutely dumbfounded and baffled at the calibration process and measurements. It drove me insane and I trashed the projector just as you guys are doing now with the LKs. It wasn’t until I spoke with the Lead Product Manager at Optoma (who consulted his engineers) and a lead engineer designing XPR DLPs at Vivitek that I got a better grasp on at least how to handle, coax, tweak, what to ignore and what to concentrate on and how to massage these type of DLPs, that I figured out how to get them to perform at their best potential.

I went in circles for many hours scratching my head as you guys did so I totally understand this. I though the UHZ65 was garbage, just look at the thread from back then!

I really think it’s just them not sharing details of how these are engineered to work and produce their image between XPR, RGBY laser Phosphor, Color Enhancer and Brilliant Color.

I remembered we had a discussion about 1.5 years ago regarding the LK970’s clone, the Acer 7860 so I looked it up and Darinp had brought up what is the most likely scenario and cause, being similar to RGBW OLED, here (then a great discussion ensued):

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post55432506

There have been other discussions regarding this that we had already been over but you guys seem to be late to the party so maybe weren’t privy to them, idk.

Here is another I stumbled on which could have relevance here too, from @ConnecTEDDD re: the OLEDs:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56201380

I REALLY just think it’s due to a strange and unique technology to get to the same end result “subjectively” (using a technology we don’t fully understand yet, but the engineers do!) when using XPR, RGBY laser phosphor and Brilliant Color for HDR. I recall SPECIFICALLY the Optoma Manager telling me I MUST use Brilliant Color for HDR and to ignore the whacky lumen measurements because they’ll never be right and if you force them it’ll make things worse based on how the technology works. I saw this first hand when I tried to go to extremes on the LK970, with the banding and solarization amongst other things. He said they all worked in conjunction to make it all be subjectively correct on screen. When I pressed them for details they wouldn’t share, so I just can’t tell you why or show you the data you’re looking for, because I get the same thing ON PAPER, but that’s not what I’m watching. I’m watching awesome HDR movies with awesome low APL and detail out the wazoo, not spreadsheets and calibration charts when it comes to these!

Get mad at me all you want, but all I want is for you to listen to what I’m saying and what I was told. That’s all I know and truth be told, the advice they gave me works wonderfully and apparently, based on what you’re reporting, yours (and mine with the UHZ65 initially) doesn’t. Sorry if that offends, but it is what it is.

I don’t really understand it all any more than you guys do yet, but I followed what they said and am more than happy with the results. People will see the truth soon enough when I am back in PA. Until then I will not argue with you anymore other than to say I do not agree with the assessments you and Kris report........at all!
I know you’ve seen it already, but maybe others haven’t.
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post #46 of 52 Old 05-25-2019, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
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You could get an Epson 5040ub refurb, though it takes some patience and you have to setup a site monitor service to parse the page to let you know when in stock.
You have to be quick.

I almost pulled the trigger on this but then decided not to as only hdmi 1.4. :/ So still eye balling the new model (5050) with the hdmi 2.0. At $3k retail, this is a good bang for buck from what I have read/seen with data posted on multiple review sites. This way, I can give native another 2 years to mature and then still sell it for $1kish and upgrade when i move to an AT cinema screen.

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post #47 of 52 Old 05-29-2019, 10:30 AM
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I don’t think everyone should be short changing @DavidHir ’s suggestion of the new laser Epson light cannon too. I’d love to get hold of one to see what it can do.
Hey Dave, what model were you and David referring to? Thanks!
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post #48 of 52 Old 05-29-2019, 12:57 PM
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I almost pulled the trigger on this but then decided not to as only hdmi 1.4. :/ So still eye balling the new model (5050) with the hdmi 2.0. At $3k retail, this is a good bang for buck from what I have read/seen with data posted on multiple review sites. This way, I can give native another 2 years to mature and then still sell it for $1kish and upgrade when i move to an AT cinema screen.
I would choose the Epson 5050 in your situation if you value black levels. It can do ok blacks.
LCD produces a bit of a rougher looking image than DLP, and especially than LCOS, but it's not that bad, and most people get used to it.

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post #49 of 52 Old 05-29-2019, 03:33 PM
 
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Hey Dave, what model were you and David referring to? Thanks!

I don’t know off the top of my head. I recall just reading about it in passing, probably the same place or thread here that @DavidHir did. I would ask him, he may know specifically.

Or go to Epson’s website and search for a 4K laser LCD model, geared to medium to large business installations like Houses of Worship, Sports Bars, museums, etc. I think it’s pretty expensive though.

FWIW, If you saw the images, including low APL scenes, that I did last night with Life if Pi on the LK990, you wouldn’t hesitate for one second to buy one immediately. The only caveat being if you’re very RBE sensitive as Maestrosc is. I am not lying or saying this with any agenda whatsoever, no matter what the unbelievers think and say. It’s to be expected when they don’t understand.
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post #50 of 52 Old 05-31-2019, 06:31 AM
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What do folks think about dropping down to a e-shift 6050UB instead until the brightness on native 4k increase in the next 1-2 years?
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I don’t know off the top of my head. I recall just reading about it in passing, probably the same place or thread here that @DavidHir did. I would ask him, he may know specifically.

Or go to Epson’s website and search for a 4K laser LCD model, geared to medium to large business installations like Houses of Worship, Sports Bars, museums, etc. I think it’s pretty expensive though.

FWIW, If you saw the images, including low APL scenes, that I did last night with Life if Pi on the LK990, you wouldn’t hesitate for one second to buy one immediately. The only caveat being if you’re very RBE sensitive as Maestrosc is. I am not lying or saying this with any agenda whatsoever, no matter what the unbelievers think and say. It’s to be expected when they don’t understand.
Another option is HT9060 if rbe sensitive or if color gamut width/accuracy is a big concern

When it doesn't have the measurable lumens of the lk990, it does have the HK effect to boost perception of brightness and very wide accurate color right out of the box. Plus it will hang onto those ~1700 lumens for the long term unlike lamp projectors.

Getting a 6050UB compared to either the ht9060/LK990 will be a massive downgrade both in sharpness and brightness and no comparison for this size screen IMO.
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post #51 of 52 Old 06-02-2019, 11:41 AM
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I don’t know off the top of my head. I recall just reading about it in passing, probably the same place or thread here that @DavidHir did. I would ask him, he may know specifically.

Or go to Epson’s website and search for a 4K laser LCD model, geared to medium to large business installations like Houses of Worship, Sports Bars, museums, etc. I think it’s pretty expensive though.

FWIW, If you saw the images, including low APL scenes, that I did last night with Life if Pi on the LK990, you wouldn’t hesitate for one second to buy one immediately. The only caveat being if you’re very RBE sensitive as Maestrosc is. I am not lying or saying this with any agenda whatsoever, no matter what the unbelievers think and say. It’s to be expected when they don’t understand.
Will chime in to say the RBE is the only reason I did end up sending the 990 back.

I brought my brother over to test it out one day, and without explaining RBE to him, asked him if anything was distracting or stood out as weird/unsettling. And he could ONLY see the RBE, after I explained where to look for it, how to see it, and the general effect it has. And even after that, he said it was only distracting when he was trying to force himself to see it, but definitely wasnt something that he was seeing a lot of or distracted by it. So it really varies per person.

The RBE for me was only on Chrome/metallics in HDR, or when the camera was panning across a light shining directly at the camera, with a dark background. But it was enough for me that I knew it would always be a distraction. Aside from that, I loved the 990 even in Normal mode. The Smart Eco dimming IMO, wasnt something I could handle though, as I found scenes in movies where the Smart Eco dimming struggled to decide on a brightness, and would switch brightness back and forth as the camera switched between two perspectives in the same scene, which was distracting to me.

The brightness/sharpness/saturation tho is why I ordered a 9060, and my rep spoke with the Engineers at BenQ and was assured the RBE in my case should be pretty much eliminated.

I loved the general look of the 990, and am hoping the 9060 will deliver a very similar image in terms of qualities. After seeing the super sharp image, I think I would prefer a super sharp image over a better contrast performance, just personally as this is a 100% preference thing.
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post #52 of 52 Old 06-04-2019, 07:51 PM
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The lk990 though is getting dinged pretty hard for color accuracy in the other threads. Most of the data I read in that thread highlights issues with that projector in terms of accuracy, which as primarily movies, is something I care about.

I plan on using madvr for tone mapping, shouldn't that help improve the HDR performance?
Not sure if this has been mentioned but you need to consider the fact that all of these projectors will need to run in high lamp mode so the fan noise will be quite loud. Will the projector be mounted in your theater or can you mount in a separate room so that you will not hear the fan noise? If you build your room with double wall construction and 5/8" sheetrock with green glue and a extremely well built door the room should be extremely quiet. Which means you will definitely hear the fan in high lamp mode. Not sure if this would bother you but I have to run my projector on low lamp for this reason.

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