New HT build: 180" 1.5 gain screen, which projector (nx5,nx7,695es) - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 52 Old 05-10-2019, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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New HT build: 180" 1.5 gain screen, which projector (nx5,695es, or 990)

Hi All,

I dont want to repeat too much in this forum, as this is mainly to get projector advice or potentially projector/screen advice.

A friend gave me his old Elite Screens ezFrame CineGray 5D 180". I have a 22x16 room with 12' ceiling (schematics can be seen in new build thread linked below).

I am debating which projector to get and am torn. I am hoping the 1.5x gain will assit with brightness given the screen size.

Between an Nx5, 695es, or lk990, which would be the best option.

Some friends are stating it may be necessary to ditch the screen and get a different one for 4k UHD at this time due to brightness.

I appreciate your input!

edit: added benq's to the list. Removed nx7, added lk990.

New build thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...icated-ht.html

Last edited by tddk; 05-14-2019 at 09:28 AM.
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post #2 of 52 Old 05-13-2019, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tddk View Post
Hi All,

I dont want to repeat too much in this forum, as this is mainly to get projector advice or potentially projector/screen advice.

A friend gave me his old Elite Screens ezFrame CineGray 5D 180". I have a 22x16 room with 12' ceiling (schematics can be seen in new build thread linked below).

I am debating which projector to get and am torn. I am hoping the 1.5x gain will assit with brightness given the screen size.

Between an Nx5, nx7, and a 695es, which would be the best option. I regularly see the 695 dropping below the nx7 so price wise it is closer to the nx5. However, everything I have read pretty much points at the JVCs for a dedicated room.

Some friends are stating it may be necessary to ditch the screen and get a different one for 4k UHD at this time due to brightness.

I appreciate your input!



New build thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...icated-ht.html

NX5 because with that large of a screen you wont even be wanting to use the BT2020 color filter that the NX7 adds because you will want all the brightness you can get. Also because of brightness limits you will probably want the iris at full open and the difference in contrast between the NX5 and NX7 at full open iris is small. Those are basically the main differences between the NX5 and NX7.
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post #3 of 52 Old 05-13-2019, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
NX5 because with that large of a screen you wont even be wanting to use the BT2020 color filter that the NX7 adds because you will want all the brightness you can get. Also because of brightness limits you will probably want the iris at full open and the difference in contrast between the NX5 and NX7 at full open iris is small. Those are basically the main differences between the NX5 and NX7.
Thanks, Appreciate it. I'll start pricing that baby out! Thanks again!
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post #4 of 52 Old 05-13-2019, 01:50 PM
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I'd get something brighter for a screen that big as you'll lose a lot of lumens quickly with a lamp based PJ.
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post #5 of 52 Old 05-13-2019, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
I'd get something brighter for a screen that big as you'll lose a lot of lumens quickly with a lamp based PJ.
I don't know why people say that, but with the JVC there is almost no loss even at like 1000 hours. About 10-15% at that point. And by like 2000-2500 hours it's about 30-35% max loss.

But for me 1000 hours is like 3 years of use heh.

A brighter projector is not a bad idea with a screen that big, but unfortunately the cost of one that will match the JVC in other attributes is quite expensive. With an NX5 and just replacing the bulb regularly it may still end up cheaper and with a better image. I guess it all depends on how many hours a year you will use it. If all you do is watch movies and don't use it as like a general television then even like 3 movies a week is only 300 hours a year.

Last edited by SirMaster; 05-13-2019 at 02:16 PM.
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post #6 of 52 Old 05-13-2019, 03:16 PM
 
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New HT build: 180" 1.5 gain screen, which projector (nx5,nx7,695es)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tddk View Post
Hi All,



I dont want to repeat too much in this forum, as this is mainly to get projector advice or potentially projector/screen advice.



A friend gave me his old Elite Screens ezFrame CineGray 5D 180". I have a 22x16 room with 12' ceiling (schematics can be seen in new build thread linked below).



I am debating which projector to get and am torn. I am hoping the 1.5x gain will assit with brightness given the screen size.



Between an Nx5, nx7, and a 695es, which would be the best option. I regularly see the 695 dropping below the nx7 so price wise it is closer to the nx5. However, everything I have read pretty much points at the JVCs for a dedicated room.



Some friends are stating it may be necessary to ditch the screen and get a different one for 4k UHD at this time due to brightness.



I appreciate your input!



New build thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...icated-ht.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
I'd get something brighter for a screen that big as you'll lose a lot of lumens quickly with a lamp based PJ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
.......A brighter projector is not a bad idea with a screen that big, but unfortunately the cost of one that will match the JVC in other attributes is quite expensive..........

Well if it were me, I would easily recommend the BenQ LK970 or 990, especially for that sized screen.

In answer to SirMaster’s statement, the street costs of these are the same or lower and sure the JVC would have better deep down very low ADL native blacks and contrast ratio, along with slightly higher color saturation (when measured, but perceptibly not really the case, especially in low level scenes). The image would be much dimmer and have a more dull, flatter appearance, especially considering the insanely better ANSI of the LKs (2xx something compared to 8xx!) as well as the great lens, added depth, three dimensionality, sharpness, detail, brightness, amazing specular highlights, etc. of the LKs!

This is of course just my humble opinion based on over a year of use, tweaking and calibrations on these and 30+ years in the industry. It’s at least worth looking into and considering it alongside the other makes and models mentioned.
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post #7 of 52 Old 05-13-2019, 03:47 PM
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BenQ lk990 no contest

Sony/jvcs mentioned will be too dim for HDR
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post #8 of 52 Old 05-13-2019, 05:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post

This is of course just my humble opinion based on over a year of use, tweaking and calibrations on these and 30+ years in the industry. It’s at least worth looking into and considering it alongside the other makes and models mentioned.

Well see that is exactly why I posted, because I am not an expert, I am just reading through threads trying to figure all this out for my first build. I will definitely read into those and truly appreciate your recommendation, I didnt even have those on my radar.
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post #9 of 52 Old 05-13-2019, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
BenQ lk990 no contest

Sony/jvcs mentioned will be too dim for HDR
Ok thanks for the 2nd recommendation here <3
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post #10 of 52 Old 05-13-2019, 06:37 PM
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I would go with NX5 none of those projectors can match the JVC far as Blacks, contrast & tone mapping. As Kris Derring said countless times throwing tons of light on HDR not always the best answer to getting HDR correct it better tone mapping & he was correct. I'm in the process of adding high gain screen from Draper XT1800X WHITE 1.8 gain 16x9 135 screen which i heard from member here there zero hot spotting issues. Plus i can run my projector in low lamp mode.


https://www.draperinc.com/projection...tecvision.aspx

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post #11 of 52 Old 05-13-2019, 06:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexgen76 View Post
I would go with NX5 none of those projectors can match the JVC far as Blacks, contrast & tone mapping. As Kris Derring said countless times throwing tons of light on HDR not always the best answer to getting HDR correct it better tone mapping & he was correct. I'm in the process of adding high gain screen from Draper XT1800X WHITE 1.8 gain 16x9 135 screen which i heard from member here there zero hot spotting issues. Plus i can run my projector in low lamp mode.



https://www.draperinc.com/projection...tecvision.aspx

And the LKs are the best way to get light on the screen so the image isn’t dark, dim, dull and lifeless in the process. And none of those JVCs can match the LKs in sharpness, detail, depth, punch, ANSI and almost any other category except absolute blacks and slight color as I said, especially at that screen size.

Both the LK970 and now the 990 I’ve had were easily “the answer” for HDR. In fact it is clearly the best HDR image I’ve had overall here in my theater, and I’ve had countless Sonys including the VW885ES, a JVC RS600, the laser Epsons (LS10000, LS10500), a lamp Epson 5040UB, and many more.

Remember this is for a 180” screen, which is significantly larger than a 135” one. Brightness DOES matter at that size, even for SDR!
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You also might want to look at that Epson laser LCD that is a light cannon (model number slips me).
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post #13 of 52 Old 05-13-2019, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
And the LKs are the best way to get light on the screen so the image isn’t dark, dim, dull and lifeless in the process. And none of those JVCs can match the LKs in sharpness, detail, depth, punch, ANSI and almost any other category except absolute blacks and slight color as I said, especially at that screen size.

Both the LK970 and now the 990 I’ve had were easily “the answer” for HDR. In fact it is clearly the best HDR image I’ve had overall here in my theater, and I’ve had countless Sonys including the VW885ES, a JVC RS600, the laser Epsons (LS10000, LS10500), a lamp Epson 5040UB, and many more.

Remember this is for a 180” screen, which is significantly larger than a 135” one. Brightness DOES matter at that size, even for SDR!


The darkness we talking is tone mapping if done correct which JVC has over any projector right now there no issue. Plus when you get to talking about the LK970 most going to have a issue knowing that it's not a projector made for HDR as from Benq reason being i didn't go that route most not willing to invest all that time into all that work that's need to achieved acceptable picture for HDR. Now far as sharpness you may be correct but that other stuff you stated not sure where that's coming from because it's not on paper Dave. Not sure he want to go LK990 route the cost of that project he well into NX9 territory.

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post #14 of 52 Old 05-13-2019, 07:20 PM
 
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New HT build: 180&quot; 1.5 gain screen, which projector (nx5,nx7,695es)

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Originally Posted by Nexgen76 View Post
The darkness we talking is tone mapping if done correct which JVC has over any projector right now there no issue. Plus when you get to talking about the LK970 most going to have a issue knowing that it's not a projector made for HDR as from Benq reason being i didn't go that route most not willing to invest all that time into all that work that's need to achieved acceptable picture for HDR. Now far as sharpness you may be correct but that other stuff you stated not sure where that's coming from because it's not on paper Dave. Not sure he want to go LK990 route the cost of that project he well into NX9 territory.

Well, if you’re talking about tone mapping HDR to SDR anyway, the fact it doesn’t do HDR natively is moot. Even so, there is no time investment to get great HDR on an LK970, as I’ve already done the grunt work and it’s 90-95% there once you easily input my base settings. You also have the option to use MadVR, a Panasonic UB820 or 9000 or if budget allows, a Lumagen Radiance Pro for great HDR to SDR Tone mapping.

It’s coming from me, with over a year of owning, calibrating and tweaking these models, and comparing to all the other techs and models I’ve had in the same timeframe, that’s where.

Street price for the LK990 is nowhere near MSRP, btw.

I just love this dialog I always get from people who’ve never seen one. If you want to keep leading him down the wrong path for such a big screen, be my guest. @DavidHir made another great suggestion to look into.

Last edited by Dave Harper; 05-13-2019 at 07:58 PM.
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post #15 of 52 Old 05-13-2019, 08:04 PM
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If you consider a single chip DLP like the BenQ and never seen one before, make sure you are not susceptible to RBE (rainbow effect). If you are wired that way the effects can range from mildly annoying to nausea inducing.
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post #16 of 52 Old 05-13-2019, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
I don't know why people say that, but with the JVC there is almost no loss even at like 1000 hours. About 10-15% at that point. And by like 2000-2500 hours it's about 30-35% max loss.
I'm not sure about JVC magic lamps that don't dim but my UHP lamp based projector starts to dim after a few hundred hours. It is then gradual from there until I replace them and start over. My projector has two 300w UHP bulbs and is used to light up a 200" 1.0 gain screen. If your screen is really 1.5 gain (measured not advertized) then the 1600 or so lumens from the JVC will provide adequate light after dimming. If the screen is closer to 1.2 you will need a well prepared room but will still have marginal brightness.

My opinion is that after a time and as hdr effects become more mainstream you will be wanting more brightness. That being said the JVC should have decent resale and eventually there might be a more alternatives.

Personally, I prefer the sharpness and motion on the DLP projectors and the thought of not moving seats, climbing on a latter and replacing bulbs has me excited about the new crop of laser projectors.
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post #17 of 52 Old 05-13-2019, 08:40 PM
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Check out the lumens on the BenQ LK953ST:

https://www.projectorreviews.com/ben...w-performance/

and Art seems to rate it pretty good for cinema content as well.
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post #18 of 52 Old 05-14-2019, 10:07 AM
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180" screen.

Lk970 or 990.

The JVC's arent going to have enough lumens to make you happy imo.

Even people who highly reccomend and LOVE JVC's, would reccomend getting the LK990 for a 180" screen imo. That is a monster screen and you are going to need a light cannon to do it justice.

The 970 refurbished is a great deal at 5k. The 990 brand new can be had for nearly half of its msrp. Im tired of my posts getting deleted for posting prices lol so PM me if you would like to know where I purchased my 990 from and for what price lol.
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post #19 of 52 Old 05-14-2019, 06:37 PM
 
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And if he is susceptible to DLP rainbows then definitely look into the high power Epson laser as @DavidHir mentioned. Does anyone recall the model number?
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post #20 of 52 Old 05-14-2019, 09:22 PM
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Its funny people always say the JVC's can not light up a 180" (195.4" Dia) 2.37:1screen. Well I have a 180" wide XD center and I light it up with a RS600 and a UH480.

But I would suggest an A lens no matter what the OP goes with. Since you can move the projector closer to the screen. In my case my projector is at 17' instead of 21'.


Yes an LK970/990 would work even better, but just saying




The pic is from Lucy and Madvr just a week ago with 350 hours on the bulb.




New Theater pics
Theater Thread
BENQ LK970, 180"(195.4" Diagonal) Wide curved Seymour 2.37:1 XD W/UH480 lens/Marantz 8802A/Outlaw Amps 7900/5000, 7.2.4 set up / 8 - MT110SR's / Dual T-18's/HTPC/MadVR

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post #21 of 52 Old 05-15-2019, 08:50 AM
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Given the above, the HT9060 should work as well, given it's higher output and the LED Helmholtz-Kohlrausch effect.
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post #22 of 52 Old 05-15-2019, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
Given the above, the HT9060 should work as well, given it's higher output and the LED Helmholtz-Kohlrausch effect.
I saw the HT9060 first hand 2 weeks ago and it throws a beautiful image, but you would be stretching the limits on a 180" screen. I saw it on a 150" wide screen and it looked great. Maybe use it with an A lens and it maybe would work well.
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BENQ LK970, 180"(195.4" Diagonal) Wide curved Seymour 2.37:1 XD W/UH480 lens/Marantz 8802A/Outlaw Amps 7900/5000, 7.2.4 set up / 8 - MT110SR's / Dual T-18's/HTPC/MadVR
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I saw the HT9060 first hand 2 weeks ago and it throws a beautiful image, but you would be stretching the limits on a 180" screen. I saw it on a 150" wide screen and it looked great. Maybe use it with an A lens and it maybe would work well.
Based upon reviews, the HT9060 has a higher output than the RS600, did you think this to be the case?
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post #24 of 52 Old 05-15-2019, 09:32 AM
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Based upon reviews, the HT9060 has a higher output than the RS600, did you think this to be the case?
I would say they are similar in brightness to be honest. The 9060 was super sharp, which was impressive! I would not have used the RS600 with my screen without the A lens. It would have not been enough light output. Now 9060 with the LED, it will hold the same level for a long time.

Is the OP's screen 16:9 or 2.35:1? I do not think he mentioned which.

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Theater Thread
BENQ LK970, 180"(195.4" Diagonal) Wide curved Seymour 2.37:1 XD W/UH480 lens/Marantz 8802A/Outlaw Amps 7900/5000, 7.2.4 set up / 8 - MT110SR's / Dual T-18's/HTPC/MadVR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
Based upon reviews, the HT9060 has a higher output than the RS600, did you think this to be the case?
After doing a simple white balance on the 9060 to it's Bright mode, that knocks the lumens down to about 1700. Compared to an NX5/7 that's maybe 50-100 lumens more than the JVC at best. But being LED it will hold the brightness much longer, though it can never be recovered if and when it does start to drop.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
I don't know why people say that, but with the JVC there is almost no loss even at like 1000 hours. About 10-15% at that point. And by like 2000-2500 hours it's about 30-35% max loss.

But for me 1000 hours is like 3 years of use heh.

A brighter projector is not a bad idea with a screen that big, but unfortunately the cost of one that will match the JVC in other attributes is quite expensive. With an NX5 and just replacing the bulb regularly it may still end up cheaper and with a better image. I guess it all depends on how many hours a year you will use it. If all you do is watch movies and don't use it as like a general television then even like 3 movies a week is only 300 hours a year.

If you are running max light output and higher on/off cycles the lamps will fade much faster . I had the VW675 and RS600 side by side and BOTH lost 20% by 400 hours . Lamps are lamps regardless of the manufacturer, those that run max output for a larger screen will change out after 500 hours .


This person needs 3000 lumens minimum, even with 1.5 gain material all the projectors he mentioned are a waste of time unless he's going to watch SDR only . Nothing short of a VW5000 or BenQ LK970/990 will suffice , a laser in this case an absolute must . The projectors he mentioned will do 110-130" screen max, anything else will not be acceptable .

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post #27 of 52 Old 05-15-2019, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
After doing a simple white balance on the 9060 to it's Bright mode, that knocks the lumens down to about 1700. Compared to an NX5/7 that's maybe 50-100 lumens more than the JVC at best. But being LED it will hold the brightness much longer, though it can never be recovered if and when it does start to drop.
I did some research into Phillip's HLD LED technology and I found this info:


Quote:
The maintenance of the pump LEDs has been assessed so far up to 12k hrs for 26 individual LEDs under various stress
conditions. Figure 11 shows the results for a high solder temperature of 105˚C, with a drive current of 1.5A at 100% duty
cycle (left graph) and with a peak drive current of 4.0A at 50% duty cycle (right graph). These results show no difference
between pulsed and DC operation. Radiative flux decay is less than 5% at 12khrs even at these highly stressed drive
conditions
. We can conclude that the HLD module design is very robust with respect to the LED operating conditions.

LED light engine concept with ultra-high scalable luminance
So basically, HLD light output is almost completely stable over the lamps rated lifetime and lamp life/failure is actually more related to on/off cycles than lamp hours.

I would speculate that the LED modules can be replaced as they are modular in nature.
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post #28 of 52 Old 05-15-2019, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SteveFred View Post
I would say they are similar in brightness to be honest. The 9060 was super sharp, which was impressive! I would not have used the RS600 with my screen without the A lens. It would have not been enough light output. Now 9060 with the LED, it will hold the same level for a long time.

Is the OP's screen 16:9 or 2.35:1? I do not think he mentioned which.

It's 16:9

Which A lens are you using? In case I decide to swap out screens.

Also, when I run the calc, it says with a 1.5 gain, 18' will give ~25fL on the nx5.

Using madvr, won't the tone mapping help here?

I mean in reality, there is no projector today on the market that can hit the 1000nits sub 8k.
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post #29 of 52 Old 05-15-2019, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
If you are running max light output and higher on/off cycles the lamps will fade much faster . I had the VW675 and RS600 side by side and BOTH lost 20% by 400 hours . Lamps are lamps regardless of the manufacturer, those that run max output for a larger screen will change out after 500 hours .


This person needs 3000 lumens minimum, even with 1.5 gain material all the projectors he mentioned are a waste of time unless he's going to watch SDR only . Nothing short of a VW5000 or BenQ LK970/990 will suffice , a laser in this case an absolute must . The projectors he mentioned will do 110-130" screen max, anything else will not be acceptable .
The lk990 though is getting dinged pretty hard for color accuracy in the other threads. Most of the data I read in that thread highlights issues with that projector in terms of accuracy, which as primarily movies, is something I care about.

I plan on using madvr for tone mapping, shouldn't that help improve the HDR performance?
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post #30 of 52 Old 05-15-2019, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by tddk View Post
It's 16:9

Which A lens are you using? In case I decide to swap out screens.

Also, when I run the calc, it says with a 1.5 gain, 18' will give ~25fL on the nx5.

Using madvr, won't the tone mapping help here?

I mean in reality, there is no projector today on the market that can hit the 1000nits sub 8k.

I use the UH480. The ISCO III are nice also. If you want to spend more you can go with a paladin lens, they have less pin cushion affect, but more $$. I have never seen a 1.5 gain screen, so I can not comment on how that will look. If you ever swap out a screen, go with a 2.35:1 or 2:40:1 and use an A lens. You can then put the projector closer and use more light than zooming. Just my opinion, I know some do not like A lens, but I will never go back to zooming in my theater for the foreseeable future

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