4k Projector Worth it? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 86 Old 06-11-2019, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Fargus777 View Post
Would your advice be the same for someone new to the Projector world and trying to purchase their first? eshift JVC over the NX series?
@Fargus777
As far as I know the RS540 is discontinued. Once all the current orders are shipped, it's the NX line from here on. Some dealers may still have stock or there is always used.


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post #62 of 86 Old 06-11-2019, 12:55 PM
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Honestly I have only one 4K disc that didn't offer a noticeable bump in sharpness vs the Blu Ray. Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Granted when a 2K interpositive is in the mix the bump isn't going to be big. Are you sure your 620 is in focus? Might want to disable e-shift and check it. How far do you sit from your screen and what size is it? Unless the lens sample was better on my RS520 (doubtful) most of my 4K viewing was on it.



Announced and coming.



All out. Own them all except for Braveheart. Gladiator is amazing in 4K. As is Saving Private Ryan.



Not announced yet.



I hope more catalog titles get out there.
You missed my point about that list of movies. I'm talking about Hollywood, and why they don't make those types of movies anymore. They're so rare nowdays. We just get simple-minded crap these days with hardly a story at all. We used to get movies like those regularly, and now we get preachy agenda movies and 12 iterations of the same story with different super heroes as the star.

My 620 is not just in focus, it was calibrated by ChadB himself. For the most part, there's about a 2% difference in clarity with most 1080p versus most 4K. The HDR impact is definitely there, but that has nothing to do with 4K.

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post #63 of 86 Old 06-11-2019, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by jeahrens View Post
@Fargus777
As far as I know the RS540 is discontinued. Once all the current orders are shipped, it's the NX line from here on. Some dealers may still have stock or there is always used.
And that's going to be problematic for JVC.

How many people are out there looking to buy a $10K+ projector? Versus that $3K offer for the rs540, which has better black levels and is 95% as sharp picture wise?
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post #64 of 86 Old 06-11-2019, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Erod View Post
And that's going to be problematic for JVC.



How many people are out there looking to buy a $10K+ projector? Versus that $3K offer for the rs540, which has better black levels and is 95% as sharp picture wise?
I agree jvc should keep one of the eshift series around..

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post #65 of 86 Old 06-11-2019, 01:04 PM
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You missed my point about that list of movies. I'm talking about Hollywood, and why they don't make those types of movies anymore. They're so rare nowdays. We just get simple-minded crap these days with hardly a story at all. We used to get movies like those regularly, and now we get preachy agenda movies and 12 iterations of the same story with different super heroes as the star.
Apologies. I agree. Hollywood is risk averse and churns out safe products for the most part. They've forgotten that many of the risks they've taken end up being their most profitable films. I loved Blade Runner 2049, but that's the last film I can recall that provoked real thought and didn't follow a cookie cutter pattern. And it didn't make money.

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My 620 is not just in focus, it was calibrated by ChadB himself. For the most part, there's about a 2% difference in clarity with most 1080p versus most 4K. The HDR impact is definitely there, but that has nothing to do with 4K.
Not trying to offend. Just even with a 2K DI derived 4K disc you should see a bit more clarity and detail. Discs that are 4K end to end you should see a substantial difference.

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post #66 of 86 Old 06-11-2019, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Erod View Post
HDR adds nice color depth. That's a nice addition. But most 4K doesn't outshine 1080p in sharpness or clarity much, if at all. In fact, some 1080p material looks more "4K" than some actual 4K material.

Content, content, content.

Funny you mentioned this. We rent new releases thru Red Box 2 bucks for a real BD of better quality than 4 bucks to stream it. Red Box around here is still renting far more DVDs than BDs they are often sold out and the BD is there waiting for me. People don’t know the difference all they know is the DVD is only 1 buck.

We rented a BD a week ago and the previews were lack luster PQ and then a promo comes on pushing 4K UHD discs and players and the PQ of that promo was amazing. Keep in mind they are selling you on 4k media with a BD. The movie was also not as impressive as the promo. I laughed and reminded the people watching with me as how BD promos used to look amazing on DVD the same way.

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post #67 of 86 Old 06-11-2019, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Erod View Post
And that's going to be problematic for JVC.

How many people are out there looking to buy a $10K+ projector? Versus that $3K offer for the rs540, which has better black levels and is 95% as sharp picture wise?
Well the NX5 and NX7 are $5k and $7K respectively and can be had for less with the right dealer. That's not a huge departure from where the e-shift lineup was. Remember the RS540 was not $3K for most of its product life, it was $6K. Black level is better on the e-shifters, but the sharpness is much better on the new lineup.

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post #68 of 86 Old 06-11-2019, 01:12 PM
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Apologies. I agree. Hollywood is risk averse and churns out safe products for the most part. They've forgotten that many of the risks they've taken end up being their most profitable films. I loved Blade Runner 2049, but that's the last film I can recall that provoked real thought and didn't follow a cookie cutter pattern. And it didn't make money.



Not trying to offend. Just even with a 2K DI derived 4K disc you should see a bit more clarity and detail. Discs that are 4K end to end you should see a substantial difference.
The good 4Ks, there's a difference, but it's not that substantial in my opinion. Not nearly as much of a jump as 1080p was versus standard HD.

What is REALLY needed is not more pixels, but faster refresh rates. Those panning scenes are painful at times at 24p. If we ever get 60p or better as standard for 4K material with truly dynamic HDR, then I'll rush out to buy whatever that entails. But content is still stuck in the past.

In the meantime, I watched the NHL in 1080i the other night. It's still 2004.

Regarding Blade Runner, it was a pretty good movie, but the problem was, you don't wait 30+ years for a sequel on a movie that wasn't really that huge back then. It was kind of nichy even in the 80s. Harrison Ford hated the first one so bad, he almost didn't agree to do this one.
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post #69 of 86 Old 06-11-2019, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by jeahrens View Post
I had an RS520 so I'll chime in. The Lumagen Mike is suggesting would be an expensive, but great fix for the lack of auto tonemapping on your RS540. Another option which I used with great success on my RS520 would be a Panasonic UB820 with which has an HDR optimizer feature. How do the solutions differ? Well the Lumagen is able to look at each individual frame and adjust the tonemap based on that frames characteristics. The Panasonic will look at the metadata on the disc and set a tonemap based on this. So the Panasonic isn't doing a frame by frame analysis, it's simply setting a range based on the discs authoring. I've not seen what the Lumagen can do, but I have no doubt it would be better than the Panasonic approach. However having paired the Panasonic with my previous RS520 I can say the combo produced fantastic results to my eyes. And it definitely fixed some of the dim poorly authored discs *cough* Disney *cough*.

The Epson 6050 would not be an upgrade to your RS540 in my opinion. It has a better set of HDR tools, but overall the contrast, black floor and optics will fall short. The RS540 also has a usable BT2020 filter (which I preferred on my RS520) where the Epson's filter just has to much of a lumen hit to be usable. The NX7 is a trickier question. Was it an upgrade for me? Yes. Is it worth it? That's up to you. The auto tonemapping in the NX7 and native 4K panel certainly are a bonus compared to the RS5xx (along with other things), but the e-shift units are really good in their own right. I'd suggest auditioning one if you can.
The Lumagen is definitely much better and costs a lot more, but one other huge advantage. The Lumagen will have the ability to tone map all HDR sources. The Panasonic will only do HDR 4K discs. So if you want to be able to tone map streaming sources, your choice is the RS2000 he is considering or the Lumagen.
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post #70 of 86 Old 06-11-2019, 01:13 PM
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I agree jvc should keep one of the eshift series around..

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Since they are still having problems producing enough of the new lineup to fill demand, they probably felt it better to concentrate manufacturing there.

I do agree that it would have been awesome to keep it there as a competitor in the $3k range.

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post #71 of 86 Old 06-11-2019, 01:17 PM
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The Lumagen is definitely much better and costs a lot more, but one other huge advantage. The Lumagen will have the ability to tone map all HDR sources. The Panasonic will only do HDR 4K discs. So if you want to be able to tone map streaming sources, your choice is the RS2000 he is considering or the Lumagen.
Pretty sure it tonemaps the apps on the player, but obviously no other sources. Not disagreeing that the Lumagen is a much better solution. Just offering up the Panasonic as a cheaper, albeit less capable, option. I found it did a great job for what it is
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post #72 of 86 Old 06-11-2019, 01:23 PM
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The good 4Ks, there's a difference, but it's not that substantial in my opinion. Not nearly as much of a jump as 1080p was versus standard HD.
I agree the jump isn't as large as going from DVD to Blu Ray. I disagree it isn't still substantial. I can see a lot more fine detail in a good 4K disc. It's not subtle.

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What is REALLY needed is not more pixels, but faster refresh rates. Those panning scenes are painful at times at 24p. If we ever get 60p or better as standard for 4K material with truly dynamic HDR, then I'll rush out to buy whatever that entails. But content is still stuck in the past.
It's going to be a while for Hollywood to jump on that bandwagon.


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Regarding Blade Runner, it was a pretty good movie, but the problem was, you don't wait 30+ years for a sequel on a movie that wasn't really that huge back then. It was kind of nichy even in the 80s. Harrison Ford hated the first one so bad, he almost didn't agree to do this one.
The first film is a favorite. I wish the gap wasn't there, but I would take the gap over a subpar film any day. Debating the film is probably best left to a different thread.

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post #73 of 86 Old 06-11-2019, 01:25 PM
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Since they are still having problems producing enough of the new lineup to fill demand, they probably felt it better to concentrate manufacturing there.

I do agree that it would have been awesome to keep it there as a competitor in the $3k range.
The demand isn't so much the issue. It's the inability to create single units with any speed at all that is the problem.

I have no idea why it seems to take 10 times as long to build one of these projectors versus anything they've built in the past.

My gut is, they're spending an inordinate amount of time trying to solve the bugs before they ship out more buggy units.

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post #74 of 86 Old 06-11-2019, 01:29 PM
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There are a few (Jumanji, Blade Runner 2049, Hacksaw Ridge), but the vast majority of Atmos/DTS:X blu rays don't sound any better than a DTS Master-HD disc, especially with the DSU upmixer applied. And I have a perfectly dimensioned dedicated room with 7.2.4 sound. The Revenant sounds better than almost all Atmos, and it's just 5.1 sound.

HDR adds nice color depth. That's a nice addition. But most 4K doesn't outshine 1080p in sharpness or clarity much, if at all. In fact, some 1080p material looks more "4K" than some actual 4K material.

Content, content, content.

The industry has to pick up its game, and I'm not even talking about the stupid Marvel comics and Fast & Furious nonsense. We need much more intellectual movies with better stories and better production value.

Where is Forrest Gump? Where's Gladiator, Interstellar, Saving Private Ryan, Shawshank Redemption, Schindler's List, Braveheart, Gandi, The Last of the Mohicans, The Godfather, Master and Commander, etc, etc, etc.?

We don't get these movies anymore. We just get preachy garbage and comic book characters. It's disgusting. Hollywood has checked out in favor of overly PC "safe" movies.
Depends on your tastes. I collect European films too - like " In Order Of Disappearance " ( not on 4K but very good ) . A Simple Favor, Green Book, The Mule, John Wick 1 & 2, Greatest Showman, Bohemian Rhapsody, Atomic Blonde, Overlord, Bad Times At The El Royale, Crazy Rich Asians, Hostiles, Widows, Baby Driver, and re-issues on 4K like Leon The Professional, The Big Lebowski, Interstellar - there are a ton of great films out there on 4K.

I don't know what you are watching 4K Blu-rays on, but they look a lot better to me on my StudioTek 130 and RS4500 - that's for sure !
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post #75 of 86 Old 06-11-2019, 01:29 PM
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Pretty sure it tonemaps the apps on the player, but obviously no other sources. Not disagreeing that the Lumagen is a much better solution. Just offering up the Panasonic as a cheaper, albeit less capable, option. I found it did a great job for what it is
This is correct. The Panasonic player tone maps everything with HDR on the player apps, which is why I decided not to buy a Roku. However, the stuttering issues with 4K/HDR Amazon Prime shows is a problem.
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post #76 of 86 Old 06-11-2019, 01:34 PM
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Depends on your tastes. I collect European films too - like " In Order Of Disappearance " ( not on 4K but very good ) . A Simple Favor, Green Book, The Mule, John Wick 1 & 2, Greatest Showman, Bohemian Rhapsody, Atomic Blonde, Overlord, Bad Times At The El Royale, Crazy Rich Asians, Hostiles, Widows, Baby Driver, and re-issues on 4K like Leon The Professional, The Big Lebowski, Interstellar - there are a ton of great films out there on 4K.
Again, I didn't list them as "4K movies". I listed them as the kind of great movies Hollywood doesn't seem to want to make anymore. They don't meet today's PC standards, I suppose.

Besides, I know you didn't include Baby Driver, The Mule, and Crazy Rich Asians on your list as "great movies" without tongue firmly in cheek. Those were dreadful.

The rest are certainly watchable movies for the most part, but hardly in the class of what I listed (except for Interstellar, which I did list).

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post #77 of 86 Old 06-11-2019, 01:36 PM
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The demand isn't so much the issue. It's the inability to create single units with any speed at all that is the problem.

I have no idea why it seems to take 10 times as long to build one of these projectors versus anything they've built in the past.

My gut is, they're spending an inordinate amount of time trying to solve the bugs before they ship out more buggy units.
The only real bugs are the intermittent vertical bars some are experiencing and that the DI has a yellowing effect depending on iris settings. I doubt the firmware team working on these is impacting manufacturing output. The demand has been indicated to be high, but no one is posting actual numbers. However I have zero reason to doubt the posters reporting this.


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post #78 of 86 Old 06-11-2019, 01:38 PM
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That was me for several years, but I've wised up a bit.

Content has to get moving forward faster, period. Otherwise, this hobby is stuck in the mud.

Ball games are still in 720p or 1080i. Atmos and DTS:X are still mostly unimpressive versus basic 5.1 mixes. HDR still doesn't know what it wants to be or what format to follow. Refresh rates are still the same as 30 years ago. Streamed 4K is still woefully inferior to a UHD disc, as is streamed sound. Panning on a large screen makes your head spin.

Until the content gets its act in order, these cool toys are just potted plants.
Yep I will wise up a bit most likely when everyone is ditching 4k for 8k something or other. The 4K discs will start showing up in the 5 buck bin or even at Dollar Tree.

I was the guy that once bought a VHS tape player recorder for $800 many moons ago. It was a dandy with 2 heads. Lol. Friends came over to watch movies on the 36” Sony CRT.

Now a days I find even the old tech amazing and like you said sports and streaming isn’t cutting much more than 1080 anyway. I only own one 4k disc have maybe 100 BDs and over 3000 DVDs. What was I thinking.

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Again, I didn't list them as "4K movies". I listed them as the kind of great movies Hollywood doesn't seem to want to make anymore. They don't meet today's PC standards, I suppose.

Besides, I know you didn't include Baby Driver, The Mule, and Crazy Rich Asians on your list as "great movies" without tongue firmly in cheek. Those were dreadful.

The rest are certainly watchable movies for the most part, but hardly in the class of what I listed (except for Interstellar, which I did list).
I love Baby Driver - I've probably watched it 12 times with friends. Whatever. They are all entertaining movies. But if you just want to complain about life and how 4K isn't worth it, be my guest. My friends and I will be watching movies in my theater. Life is way too short for this.
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Hi all.

I am i the same boat. 120 inch screen , 10ft away, Sony VPL-HW50ES, Sony X700 UBP.

I have noticed regular blu-rays look much better than HDR 4k discs! 4k discs look washed out and the contrast is off compared to regular blu-rays. Is this because my player can not do correct tone mapping?
I have a powerful spare HTPC , should I use this with KODI instead for playing 4k titles?

Is there a reference HDR file I can use to calibrate and fine tune the tone mapping?
I want to upgrade to the new JVC projectors but am stuck in this situation for right now.

Thanks.

Projector - Sony VPL-HW50ES, 120" 1.3 gain screen., Paradigm Studio Ver 5 ( 60s, 20s, 590, 10s ) SVS NSD-PB12,
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post #81 of 86 Old 06-11-2019, 03:05 PM
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I love Baby Driver - I've probably watched it 12 times with friends. Whatever. They are all entertaining movies. But if you just want to complain about life and how 4K isn't worth it, be my guest. My friends and I will be watching movies in my theater. Life is way too short for this.
That movie is my kryptonite. LOL.

That kid was terrible in my opinion. However, I now sympathize with him because Kevin Spacey was probably fondling him the whole time they were shooting.

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Hi all.

I am i the same boat. 120 inch screen , 10ft away, Sony VPL-HW50ES, Sony X700 UBP.

I have noticed regular blu-rays look much better than HDR 4k discs! 4k discs look washed out and the contrast is off compared to regular blu-rays. Is this because my player can not do correct tone mapping?
I have a powerful spare HTPC , should I use this with KODI instead for playing 4k titles?

Is there a reference HDR file I can use to calibrate and fine tune the tone mapping?
I want to upgrade to the new JVC projectors but am stuck in this situation for right now.

Thanks.
You need a Panasonic ub820 in the worst way.
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post #83 of 86 Old 06-11-2019, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by neokeelo View Post
Hi all.

I am i the same boat. 120 inch screen , 10ft away, Sony VPL-HW50ES, Sony X700 UBP.

I have noticed regular blu-rays look much better than HDR 4k discs! 4k discs look washed out and the contrast is off compared to regular blu-rays. Is this because my player can not do correct tone mapping?
I have a powerful spare HTPC , should I use this with KODI instead for playing 4k titles?

Is there a reference HDR file I can use to calibrate and fine tune the tone mapping?
I want to upgrade to the new JVC projectors but am stuck in this situation for right now.

Thanks.
MadVR is the best way if you don't mind watching movies on the HTPC, seems like the Panny is now the third best way behind the Lumagen.
Assuming MadVR > Lumagen > Panny, though cannot say for sure MadVR beats the Lumagen, never tested it.
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post #84 of 86 Old 06-11-2019, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
MadVR is the best way if you don't mind watching movies on the HTPC, seems like the Panny is now the third best way behind the Lumagen.
Assuming MadVR > Lumagen > Panny, though cannot say for sure MadVR beats the Lumagen, never tested it.
Is MadVR a add on for Kodi for HDR to SDR conversion?

My Sony will do tone mapping but is the Panasonic much better?

Last edited by neokeelo; 06-11-2019 at 07:39 PM.
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post #85 of 86 Old 06-11-2019, 07:44 PM
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Is MadVR a add on for Kodi for HDR to SDR conversion?

My Sony will do tone mapping but is the Panasonic much better?
Tone mapping algorithms are mostly bad except for a few devices, so the answer is usually --- Yes the Panny will be better

http://madvr.com/

It supports Kodi I believe, never used MadVR yet, you need a high-end video card (probably NVIDIA 1060 or greater is better, 1070 - 1080 is optimal).
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post #86 of 86 Old 06-11-2019, 08:48 PM
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Is MadVR a add on for Kodi for HDR to SDR conversion?

My Sony will do tone mapping but is the Panasonic much better?
Not quite an addon, you need a different fork of Kodi called Kodi DSPlayer. Been using it a couple years, its gold!
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