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post #31 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
The contrast on Sonys is lost to the throw position, unless you get a perfect lens and have the perfect throw, your contrast is going to be 1/4 to 1/2 what the highest measurements say, and that is before degradation. The more issue with the lens, the more contrast that is lost to the throw position
I am intrigued about this part.

What is the 'perfect throw'?

Is a projector tending to higher contrast further away from the screen or closer?

Also what affect does the zoom have? Is zooming to a bigger size whilst at a close throw better for contrast or smaller size at longer throw?

Whilst I am at it, is 'telephoto' zoomed bigger at close throw or the other way round?

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post #32 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
In the meantime though do not underestimate the fine quality of the ARC-F lens in Sony's top end or obviously the one in the Z1 or NX9.
I might be wrong but the way I read it, I thought he was referring to the lenses sported by the 760 and lower.

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post #33 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
I might be wrong but the way I read it, I thought he was referring to the lenses sported by the 760 and lower.
He probably is/was.

I know where he is coming from and he does have some good points with regards to native contrast VS laser's dynamic dimming.

I would disagree when he says contrast is underrated on this forum.
I would say that it is over represented(rather than overrated) when it comes to what constitutes a good visual set up.

Testimony to this fact is how many "contrast preferring" e-shifting JVC owners who have now made the jump to the native NX series prefer their new NX5s,7s &9s with higher resolution ect ect over their previous rs4XX,rs5XX and rs6XX
projectors.

Resolution is still an important key that is on par if not more significant than contrast.
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post #34 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
RS-4500 vs. RS-640 is a mixed bag, I prefer the higher contrast over the smoother motion and better processing and better lens and brighter more stable laser image. However, that's just me...

Contrast is king in my book, sharpness matters a lot but not as much at these levels. If the RS-640 were Native 4k, then it would beat the RS-4500 overall most likely. Waiting for JVC to make NX series with higher contrast.
You might think you prefer the RS640, but I doubt, if you actually compared. I owned both and the RS4500 is definitely the better projector, even in a black pit of a room.
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post #35 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
He probably is/was.

I know where he is coming from and he does have some good points with regards to native contrast VS laser's dynamic dimming.

I would disagree when he says contrast is underrated on this forum.
I would say that it is over represented(rather than overrated) when it comes to what constitutes a good visual set up.

Testimony to this fact is how many "contrast preferring" e-shifting JVC owners who have now made the jump to the native NX series prefer their new NX5s,7s &9s with higher resolution ect ect over their previous rs4XX,rs5XX and rs6XX
projectors.

Resolution is still an important key that is on par if not more significant than contrast.
Its always been a balancing act though, the NX owners lost about 30% contrast but gained some resolution. A lot of those same people back on the eshift models lost a small amount of resolution compared to Sony but gained 500% or more contrast in some cases...
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post #36 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Nah, but I compared other projectors similar to the RS-4500 contrast levels.
That's what people say, but the Native is only 8000:1 or even less in most peoples setups on the RS-4500...
That's too low, sure it's not going to look like a huge difference on MOST content, but I still want the best blacks.

Otherwise, mise well grab an NX, and contrast too low on that series.

A lot of people think the Epson contrast is close to the JVC too, but it depends how picky you are...

Native Contrast is king, DI or Laser Dimming = fake out.
Actually you have it backwards. Most people close down the iris and get considerably better than that. Chadb measured 24,500:1 native on my RS4500 and I was not even using high laser. In high laser with iris closed down more, I would have been in the 30k to 40k range. As I said, I would easily put the 4500 up against the 640.
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post #37 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Here is what S&V review said:

Overall, subjective contrast was quite good, though it did fall short of my reference DLA-X750R. Intrascene contrast didn’t have the inky blacks of that projector, but overall performance was still fantastic for all but the most demanding dark material.
Read more at https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...sxGyWPuXVbB.99

-----------------

That's true with all projectors, even the Epsons, it is all but the most demanding material, but that's the point of having the best blacks is for the most demanding material. Unless you are comparing a DLP with horrible black levels, then that can affect a bit wider range of content.
That was accurate at the time of the review, but the dynamic dimming on the 4500 was improved greatly, after that review.
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post #38 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Well it's good enough for you, it maxes out around 25k:1 native with the Iris closed and 150k:1 dynamic, I know what that looks like and I need it darker.

Direct comparisons are completely unnecessary for native contrast, no device bunks the trend, even TV's and monitors still follow the law of native contrast, and the ANSI of some TV's is off the charts, but it doesn't help much.

If you are trying to say the RS-4500 shoots above its Native Contrast spec, well then you are talking Dynamic Contrast...
Not correct. Maxes a lot higher than that, but will not have much light output. I was on -10 medium laser and Chadb measured 24,500:1 and that was with 18FL on my 9' wide 0.75 gain screen. I could have gone to high laser, closed the iris down until I once again had 18FL on screen and I would have been up in the mid 30K to mid 40k range.

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post #39 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 05:45 PM
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For what it's worth, I went from a (RS40, RS45, RS46, RS4810, RS420, RS500, RS520, and RS440) to a NX5 and couldn't be happier.

Taking the good with the bad (less contrast, slightly smaller color gamut), the overall picture IMO is simply superior, plain and simple. That being said, the RS4500 is in a different league than the NX5, besting it in just about every category.
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post #40 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
I might be wrong but the way I read it, I thought he was referring to the lenses sported by the 760 and lower.
Pretty much right, the vw1100es looked great in almost all respects and I'm sure the other higher-end ones too, but it's old and I'm sure if I saw it again the contrast would have degraded, saw it a few years ago. That was the best Sony I ever saw by about 1000x. Don't think I ever really looked at a Sony laser, there was one at Star Power, but it was in a room with all bright walls (which is silly).

@Others
As far as people preferring the NX series over the RS-5xx/RS-6xx, well a lot of people sit a lot closer than I do, I'm 10' from a 120" 2.35, so that is the real difference.
Sharpness and resolution are seating distance specific, we seem to keep forgetting that in these forums.
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post #41 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jbn008 View Post
For what it's worth, I went from a (RS40, RS45, RS46, RS4810, RS420, RS500, RS520, and RS440) to a NX5 and couldn't be happier.

Taking the good with the bad (less contrast, slightly smaller color gamut), the overall picture IMO is simply superior, plain and simple. That being said, the RS4500 is in a different league than the NX5, besting it in just about every category.
It is just so hard for me to spend this kind of money and not increase my contrast, that's not a good feeling.
Sure I get a DI compared to my ancient RS-45, but it's still a sideways or even slightly backwards move in contrast, other than for blackouts.

The solution is to buy an NX5 and mod the design with the second Iris, if it really works. I still need to test this one day on my older JVC and see if the contrast really did increase as someone is claiming. Also, it depends if the empty space is still even there on the NX5, or if JVC blocked it off with a metal enclosure so people cannot do this hack.

If I can mod an NX5 with this hack, then I'll probably buy next year's "NX5".
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post #42 of 82 Old 06-10-2019, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
It is just so hard for me to spend this kind of money and not increase my contrast, that's not a good feeling.
Sure I get a DI compared to my ancient RS-45, but it's still a sideways or even slightly backwards move in contrast, other than for blackouts.

The solution is to buy an NX5 and mod the design with the second Iris, if it really works. I still need to test this one day on my older JVC and see if the contrast really did increase as someone is claiming. Also, it depends if the empty space is still even there on the NX5, or if JVC blocked it off with a metal enclosure so people cannot do this hack.

If I can mod an NX5 with this hack, then I'll probably buy next year's "NX5".
Even if you could somehow hack it to add a second iris and some how load NX7 firmware so it would be used is extremely doubtful, it would still only have half the native contrast because it has the less powerful polarizes.

Hell i'd give you my iris if I could, never use it.

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post #43 of 82 Old 06-10-2019, 07:26 AM
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Even if you could somehow hack it to add a second iris and some how load NX7 firmware so it would be used is extremely doubtful, it would still only have half the native contrast because it has the less powerful polarizes.

Hell i'd give you my iris if I could, never use it.
You cannot load the firmware. It's not that kind of Iris, it's just a fixed light tunnel, basically a piece of plastic that JVC adds between two openings in the light path to block some of the stray light. The steps have already been documented in another thread, just have never tried it personally. You can turn an old JVC into one step up model with a piece of light blocking plastic (supposedly), that's what they are apparently charging you $2000+ for... I guess we have to think of it like software licensing, JVC is skipping a feature and charging extra. However, it literally costs them nothing.

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post #44 of 82 Old 06-10-2019, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
It is just so hard for me to spend this kind of money and not increase my contrast, that's not a good feeling.
Sure I get a DI compared to my ancient RS-45, but it's still a sideways or even slightly backwards move in contrast, other than for blackouts.

The solution is to buy an NX5 and mod the design with the second Iris, if it really works. I still need to test this one day on my older JVC and see if the contrast really did increase as someone is claiming. Also, it depends if the empty space is still even there on the NX5, or if JVC blocked it off with a metal enclosure so people cannot do this hack.

If I can mod an NX5 with this hack, then I'll probably buy next year's "NX5".
Your RS45 is too dim compared to any of the new JVC's - especially the RS4500. The brighter the projector, the more you can close down the iris for better contrast / black levels. The picture is just so much better on these new projectors. Everything changed for the better starting with the RS400 / 500 / 600. And the RS4500 is better still. Higher contrast is worthless if you can only muster 12 foot lamberts IMO. You need to actually see the picture they throw. 4K / HDR can be absolutely amazing looking.
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post #45 of 82 Old 06-10-2019, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Your RS45 is too dim compared to any of the new JVC's - especially the RS4500. The brighter the projector, the more you can close down the iris for better contrast / black levels. The picture is just so much better on these new projectors. Everything changed for the better starting with the RS400 / 500 / 600. And the RS4500 is better still. Higher contrast is worthless if you can only muster 12 foot lamberts IMO. You need to actually see the picture they throw. 4K / HDR can be absolutely amazing looking.
I actually have my iris at -10 with 500 hours on the lamp, as some movies are too bright with it open.

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post #46 of 82 Old 06-10-2019, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
I actually have my iris at -10 with 500 hours on the lamp, as some movies are too bright with it open.
The RS600 I had was brighter in low lamp than the RS4910 I demo'd was in high lamp, and the new 4K projectors are as bright. So imagine how small you could crank the iris on the new ones,

Your screen must be awfully small / high gain then.
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post #47 of 82 Old 06-10-2019, 07:35 AM
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It's 120" scope and 106" 16:9, but I'm pretty much at closest throw as well.
Also am in a black pit, that is what made the difference. I also wear black clothes.
Everything is treated in TBV, even the ceiling. It is literally about as dark as it could be.

I have an HP screen, but it's not mounted at the moment, actually both my current screens are 1.0 gain.

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post #48 of 82 Old 06-10-2019, 07:37 AM
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I am pretty masterful at calibrating this projector to maximize lumens as well, since I've owned it for so long, I have calibrated it so many times.
I calibrated an Animation mode that is about 4.5 dE or so, and it gets near the max lumens of the projector. Going down to 1.5 dE isn't worth the lumen loss.

As the older JVC's age, they have too much blue in the image and gamma droop.
This actually makes it easier to get slightly more lumens though using Animation mode or another mode that has too much red in it.

I replace the lamp every 500-1000 hours, but I get the lamps under $80 so no big deal.

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post #49 of 82 Old 06-10-2019, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
It's 120" scope and 106" 16:9, but I'm pretty much at closest throw as well.
Also am in a black pit, that is what made the difference. I also wear black clothes.
Everything is treated in TBV, even the ceiling. It is literally about as dark as it could be.

I have an HP screen, but it's not mounted at the moment, actually both my current screens are 1.0 gain.
You must not like a very bright picture then. My room is very dark and I like around 20 + foot lamberts for Blu-rays and around 45 + foot lamberts for 4K / HDR.
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post #50 of 82 Old 06-10-2019, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
It's 120" scope and 106" 16:9, but I'm pretty much at closest throw as well.
Also am in a black pit, that is what made the difference. I also wear black clothes.
Everything is treated in TBV, even the ceiling. It is literally about as dark as it could be.

I have an HP screen, but it's not mounted at the moment, actually both my current screens are 1.0 gain.
I wear black braces on my teeth just in case #firstworldproblems
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post #51 of 82 Old 06-10-2019, 07:44 AM
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You must not like a very bright picture then. My room is very dark and I like around 20 + foot lamberts for Blu-rays and around 45 + foot lamberts for 4K / HDR.
It's normal brightness I watch it at, it's not quite as bright looking as my LCD monitor in a non-treated room, but only a couple steps darker looking.
When the lamp is new, it's very bright, probably 18-22.

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post #52 of 82 Old 06-10-2019, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
I am intrigued about this part.

* What is the 'perfect throw'?

* Is a projector tending to higher contrast further away from the screen or closer?

* Also what affect does the zoom have? Is zooming to a bigger size whilst at a close throw better for contrast or smaller size at longer throw?

* Whilst I am at it, is 'telephoto' zoomed bigger at close throw or the other way round?

Cheers.
Anyone? A little off topic I know but if anyone could let me know I would appreciate it.

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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
You cannot load the firmware. It's not that kind of Iris, it's just a fixed light tunnel, basically a piece of plastic that JVC adds between two openings in the light path to block some of the stray light. The steps have already been documented in another thread, just have never tried it personally. You can turn an old JVC into one step up model with a piece of light blocking plastic (supposedly), that's what they are apparently charging you $2000+ for... I guess we have to think of it like software licensing, JVC is skipping a feature and charging extra. However, it literally costs them nothing.
I agree you could never load NX7 firmware but even if you could do what you are suggesting it doesn't change the native contrast, only the dynamic contrast.

So it will never be a NX7 even with the hack.

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I wear black braces on my teeth just in case #firstworldproblems
I don't allow people to smile in my theater !
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post #55 of 82 Old 06-10-2019, 07:49 AM
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I don't allow people to smile in my theater !
Smiling is for flat panel owners...us projector folks know better
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Originally Posted by microwiz View Post
I agree you could never load NX7 do that but even if you could do what you are suggesting it doesn't change the native contrast, only the dynamic contrast.

So it will never be a NX5 even iwth the hack.
It's changing the actual native contrast. You are not understanding, it's not a mechanical thing that is done, it's a piece of plastic that stops light from leaking into the light path. Its before the lens, that's why it affects native contrast. Anyhow, dynamic contrast means a mechanical device. A fixed aperture either affects ANSI, Native, or just reduces light output. However, you can trade lumens for higher contrast by blocking the lumens before it gets into the light path with this piece of plastic. I always knew this was theoretically possible, just didn't realize where to put the piece of plastic to block the light until someone reverse engineered it.

However, it isn't exactly like the next model up, since it's still missing some features and firmware, but contrast wise it would be closer. Again, I've never tried it myself and never measured, so I do not know the net benefit, but this info comes from someone that had opened up several JVC's and reverse engineered how the increase in the native was done. Also, the native JVC implementation is going to be more advanced using optical tricks as to lose less light when adding it most likely. However, the NX series are so bright that there is so many lumens to spare, you could probably increase contrast quite a bit if you can do it correctly.

JVC purposefully handicaps the lower-end JVC's by removing a piece of plastic to let light escape, or you could say by leaving a gap in the manufactured area.

It literally is supposedly the same part that JVC adds between the RS-4xx to 5xx to 6xx.

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Last edited by coderguy; 06-10-2019 at 07:52 AM.
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post #57 of 82 Old 06-10-2019, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
It's changing the actual native contrast. You are not understanding, it's not a mechanical thing that is done, it's a piece of plastic that stops light from leaking into the light path. Its before the lens, that's why it affects native contrast. Anyhow, dynamic contrast means a mechanical device. A fixed aperture either affects ANSI, Native, or just reduces light output. However, you can trade lumens for higher contrast by blocking the lumens before it gets into the light path with this piece of plastic.

JVC purposefully handicaps the lower-end JVC's by removing a piece of plastic to let light escape, or you could say by leaving a gap in the manufactured area.

It literally is supposedly the same part that JVC adds between the RS-4xx to 5xx to 6xx.
No it doesn't, the NX7 and NX9 have more powerful polarizers than an NX5, it's not just a DI difference. If you run an NX7 and NX5 wide open with all DI's disabled the NX7 will still have substantial more native contrast.

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post #58 of 82 Old 06-10-2019, 07:55 AM
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No it doesn't, the NX7 and NX9 have more powerful polarizers than an NX5, it's not just a DI difference. If you run an NX7 and NX5 wide open with all DI's disabled the NX7 will still have substantial more native contrast.
Again, this has nothing to do with a DI. This is the same trick people used to use on old school DLP's in the old days, it does increase native contrast. DarinP did it before too.

The more powerful polarizers are to combat light loss from the extra treatment most likely, not technically add contrast. A lot of the contrast comes from the second aperture which is just a plastic filter between two openings in the light path, this has been reverse engineered already. As I said, you will likely lose more lumens than the NATIVE way of doing it, but you do increase native contrast if you can find the right part of the light path. With LCOS, a lot of Native contrast is lost in the light path itself, unlike DLP which a lot is lost in the chip itself then some in the light path. That is why the trick mostly only worked on older high-native DLP's like the Marantz or Sharps, but when doing it the lumens loss was too great. However, the NX series has lumens to spare.

I have not tested it, but that's supposedly how it works.

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Last edited by coderguy; 06-10-2019 at 08:08 AM.
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post #59 of 82 Old 06-10-2019, 07:58 AM
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No it doesn't, the NX7 and NX9 have more powerful polarizers than an NX5, it's not just a DI difference. If you run an NX7 and NX5 wide open with all DI's disabled the NX7 will still have substantial more native contrast.
The person actually opened up two JVC's and compared all the parts, and reverse engineered the difference in the optical path. The part is just a plastic filter that acts like a fixed aperture to further filter out light. As far as more powerful polarizers, again it's probably mainly just to combat the brightness loss from the ever increasing contrast treatments JVC applies to the higher-end models (or maybe to top off the native contrast so to speak). However, there is no way to know exactly how well it works unless I try it myself and measure, but it's been done several times already on older JVC's.

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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
The person actually opened up two JVC's and compared all the parts, and reverse engineered the difference in the optical path. The part is just a plastic filter that acts like a fixed aperture to further filter out light. As far as more powerful polarizers, again it's probably mainly just to combat the brightness loss from the ever increasing contrast treatments JVC applies to the higher-end models. However, there is no way to know exactly how well it works unless I try it myself and measure, but it's been done several times already on older JVC's.
The NX7 and NX9 have 3 more powerful polarizer. The NX5 had two less powerful polarizer, just like the RS440. That was what JVC told us when they introduced the new models.

Now if you are saying that isn't true, and the only difference is a piece of plastic then JVC told us the wrong information.

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