Benq HT9060 or Jvc 4500K - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 64Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 82 Old 06-08-2019, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 16
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 2
Question Benq HT9060 or Jvc 4500K

Hello ! Im reading and learning a lot from you and your post and builds !
Im planning my home theater in my new house, the size could be something like 18 x 27 feets for the dedicated room. im not having troubles with the space becausa was to be a new build.

im doing a lot of research for choosing my projector , another choises could be great also , im thinking on a display size of 165" 2:40.1 aspec ratio and use a panamorph lens on the projector !
Im looking for the best quality of picture !
I see a review on a blog ,the reviewer say what the ht9060 are the best projector his ever reviewed , look crazy by the cost diference
thanks for your help , I really appreciate it

Telecommunication Engineer Living on chile. Forex trader. Apasionado por el buen cine
VENEZUELAN
Luis Leonardo is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 82 Old 06-08-2019, 01:12 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 15,681
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Liked: 7580
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luis Leonardo View Post
Hello ! Im reading and learning a lot from you and your post and builds !

Im planning my home theater in my new house, the size could be something like 18 x 27 feets for the dedicated room. im not having troubles with the space becausa was to be a new build.



im doing a lot of research for choosing my projector , another choises could be great also , im thinking on a display size of 165" 2:40.1 aspec ratio and use a panamorph lens on the projector !

Im looking for the best quality of picture !

I see a review on a blog ,the reviewer say what the ht9060 are the best projector his ever reviewed , look crazy by the cost diference

thanks for your help , I really appreciate it


Well, the RS4500 is the best projector I’ve ever seen ( and I see a lot every year at Cedia / CES ). You might try and see them in person.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Craig Peer is offline  
post #3 of 82 Old 06-08-2019, 01:32 PM
Advanced Member
 
12GAGE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 710
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 335 Post(s)
Liked: 381
If you are looking for the best overall picture quality, the JVC RS4500 would be the best unit for you. It is probably the best balanced unit on the market right now and does everything pretty well. The HT 9060 can throw a great image as well given the right content and room. Depending on how much you want to spend if cost is a criteria it may effect your selection. If price is not a consideration then the RS4500 is my recommendation.
12GAGE is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 82 Old 06-08-2019, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 16
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 2
Thanks for your reply ! very usefull , this months i only can travel to supervise the construction of my house in Venezuela ( my native country ) , here on chile i couldn't see a demo of this projector and minus on Venezuela. Im sure that go to be a great choice! i go to post the thread of my build soon on the forum !
Regards !

Telecommunication Engineer Living on chile. Forex trader. Apasionado por el buen cine
VENEZUELAN
Luis Leonardo is offline  
post #5 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 12:12 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,929
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2349 Post(s)
Liked: 1271
I would grab a refurb Epson 5040 or new Epson 5050 as a holdover and wait for JVC to release their next LASER projector. RS-4500 is a good projector, but it's an older model and is a bit long in the tooth for the kind of money it costs. Unless budget doesn't matter at all. Per some other options like JVC lamp based, well the problem with JVC lamp-based models is probably not enough brightness for your setup. Also, the Benq ht9060 isn't bright enough for your screen, but the Benq lk970 or lk990 is, but those have some known calibration issues and are also prone to RBE for those sensitive to it.

The RS-4500 going to lose too much value once JVC releases their new Laser projector, and I'm assuming that's only 6 months away, but no guarantees.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --

Last edited by coderguy; 06-09-2019 at 12:15 AM.
coderguy is offline  
post #6 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 12:42 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
woofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: SwiftsCreek, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 1,396
Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1359 Post(s)
Liked: 2040
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
RS-4500 is a good projector, but it's an older model and is a bit long in the tooth for the kind of money it costs.
Ha Ha ... Might be "Long In the Tooth" but the Z1/RS4500 throws the best image of any projector i have used/owned, and this includes the following......

JVC X7500 / JVC X9500 / JVC X9900 / Sony 760ES / Sony 5000ES / BenQ LK970 / JVC NX9 / JVC N5

A future projector will have to be "Substantially" improved , and i doubt that is happening for quite some time in any form that would make the image from the Z1/RS4500 seem any less stellar than it already is!!
Craig Peer and llang269 like this.
woofer is offline  
post #7 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 12:45 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,929
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2349 Post(s)
Liked: 1271
Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Ha Ha ... Might be "Long In the Tooth" but the Z1/RS4500 throws the best image of any projector i have used/owned, and this includes the following......

JVC X7500 / JVC X9500 / JVC X9900 / Sony 760ES / Sony 5000ES / BenQ LK970 / JVC NX9 / JVC N5

A future projector will have to be "Substantially" improved , and i doubt that is happening for quite some time in any form that would make the image from the Z1/RS4500 seem any less stellar than it already is!!
RS-4500 vs. RS-640 is a mixed bag, I prefer the higher contrast over the smoother motion and better processing and better lens and brighter more stable laser image. However, that's just me...

Contrast is king in my book, sharpness matters a lot but not as much at these levels. If the RS-640 were Native 4k, then it would beat the RS-4500 overall most likely. Waiting for JVC to make NX series with higher contrast.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --
coderguy is offline  
post #8 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 12:48 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
woofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: SwiftsCreek, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 1,396
Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1359 Post(s)
Liked: 2040
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
RS-4500 vs. RS-640 is a mixed bag, I prefer the higher contrast over the smoother motion and better processing and better lens ad brighter more stable laser image. However, that's just me...

Contrast is king in my book.
Have YOU compared the X9900 and the Z1/RS4500 in the same room on the same screen ? I have many times!

Contrast is far closer than you think!
Toe, Craig Peer and llang269 like this.
woofer is offline  
post #9 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 12:50 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,929
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2349 Post(s)
Liked: 1271
Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Have YOU compared the X9900 and the Z1/RS4500 in the same room on the same screen ? I have many times!

Contrast is far closer than you think!
Nah, but I compared other projectors similar to the RS-4500 contrast levels.
That's what people say, but the Native is only 8000:1 or even less in most peoples setups on the RS-4500...
That's too low, sure it's not going to look like a huge difference on MOST content, but I still want the best blacks.

Otherwise, mise well grab an NX, and contrast too low on that series.

A lot of people think the Epson contrast is close to the JVC too, but it depends how picky you are...

Native Contrast is king, DI or Laser Dimming = fake out.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --
coderguy is offline  
post #10 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 12:59 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
woofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: SwiftsCreek, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 1,396
Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1359 Post(s)
Liked: 2040
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Native Contrast is king, DI or Laser Dimming = fake out.
Rubbish !!! Real world results in the final presented image are what counts.....

NX9 has higher "Spec,d " NATIVE contrast than the Z1/RS4500...to bad it doesn't translate to the actual projected image!!
woofer is offline  
post #11 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 01:05 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,929
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2349 Post(s)
Liked: 1271
Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Rubbish !!! Real world results in the final presented image are what counts.....

NX9 has higher "Spec,d " NATIVE contrast than the Z1/RS4500...to bad it doesn't translate to the actual projected image!!
In what respects though, the native contrast translates relatively the same between every projector. Dynamic contrast is separate. Native contrast is the one measurement you can take to the bank.

You just like the other attributes better which is fine, but the RS4500's blacks are no match for the RS-640.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --
coderguy is offline  
post #12 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 01:12 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,929
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2349 Post(s)
Liked: 1271
Here is what S&V review said:

Overall, subjective contrast was quite good, though it did fall short of my reference DLA-X750R. Intrascene contrast didn’t have the inky blacks of that projector, but overall performance was still fantastic for all but the most demanding dark material.
Read more at https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...sxGyWPuXVbB.99

-----------------

That's true with all projectors, even the Epsons, it is all but the most demanding material, but that's the point of having the best blacks is for the most demanding material. Unless you are comparing a DLP with horrible black levels, then that can affect a bit wider range of content.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --

Last edited by coderguy; 06-09-2019 at 01:15 AM.
coderguy is offline  
post #13 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 01:14 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
woofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: SwiftsCreek, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 1,396
Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1359 Post(s)
Liked: 2040
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

RS4500's blacks are no match for the RS-640.
Not going to argue with you indefinitely on this ..

You are wrong! YOU have NOT made a direct comparison yourself, so please DONT proceed to lecture me on something i have compared many many times!
Gary Lightfoot and llang269 like this.
woofer is offline  
post #14 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 01:16 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,929
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2349 Post(s)
Liked: 1271
Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Not going to argue with you indefinitely on this ..

You are wrong! YOU have NOT made a direct comparison yourself, so please DONT proceed to lecture me on something i have compared many many times!
Well it's good enough for you, it maxes out around 25k:1 native with the Iris closed and 150k:1 dynamic, I know what that looks like and I need it darker.

Direct comparisons are completely unnecessary for native contrast, no device bunks the trend, even TV's and monitors still follow the law of native contrast, and the ANSI of some TV's is off the charts, but it doesn't help much.

If you are trying to say the RS-4500 shoots above its Native Contrast spec, well then you are talking Dynamic Contrast...

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --

Last edited by coderguy; 06-09-2019 at 01:21 AM.
coderguy is offline  
post #15 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 01:27 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
woofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: SwiftsCreek, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 1,396
Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1359 Post(s)
Liked: 2040
@coderguy you do know what a "Tick" is dont you ...
woofer is offline  
post #16 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 01:35 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,929
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2349 Post(s)
Liked: 1271
I know what happens when I say something unpopular in the forums, I do it all the time.
All I can say is, I'm the counter to the hype machine. It's just my subjective opinion, not set in stone.

I know the Rs-4500 has enough contrast to satisfy MOST people, but I just like really really high contrast.
I know the other attributes are all better, and on large screens it will blow away every other projector.

However, I have a 120" screen and would not take the RS-4500 over the RS-640 (as I am 90% contrast based, and 10% other), otherwise I can probably just get away with a 110" to 120" TV at that price (never looked in that price range), except no scope would be the issue.

Brightness is more important than Contrast for large screens, but Contrast is second on modern projectors. Sharpness is only more important if dealing with Sonys or bad samples of JVC.

The motion is probably better on the RS-4500, but I'm used to bad motion...
Archibald1 likes this.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --

Last edited by coderguy; 06-09-2019 at 02:03 AM.
coderguy is offline  
post #17 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 05:19 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markmon1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,238
Mentioned: 100 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4418 Post(s)
Liked: 2768
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
RS-4500 vs. RS-640 is a mixed bag, I prefer the higher contrast over the smoother motion and better processing and better lens and brighter more stable laser image. However, that's just me...

Contrast is king in my book, sharpness matters a lot but not as much at these levels. If the RS-640 were Native 4k, then it would beat the RS-4500 overall most likely. Waiting for JVC to make NX series with higher contrast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Have YOU compared the X9900 and the Z1/RS4500 in the same room on the same screen ? I have many times!

Contrast is far closer than you think!
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Nah, but I compared other projectors similar to the RS-4500 contrast levels.
That's what people say, but the Native is only 8000:1 or even less in most peoples setups on the RS-4500...
That's too low, sure it's not going to look like a huge difference on MOST content, but I still want the best blacks.

Otherwise, mise well grab an NX, and contrast too low on that series.

A lot of people think the Epson contrast is close to the JVC too, but it depends how picky you are...

Native Contrast is king, DI or Laser Dimming = fake out.
You should probably just stop here. The native on RS4500 is nowhere near 8000:1. And the dynamic laser dimming is just so good it is super seamless most the time nothing like an iris. The way my RS4500 is configured, I think the native is probably around 45000:1. But the laser dimming is bringing it up much higher than that. Laser dimming works so well it's no fake out. Again, you haven't seen it in action.

I owned an RS500, then 285ES, then 675ES, then RS640, then RS4500. I had the RS500 here in my possession (even though I sold it) up until I got my RS640.

This has allowed me to do side by side comparisons in my room between the RS500 / RS640, RS500 / RS4500, and RS640 / RS4500.

The RS500 and RS640 were close in side by side performance but the RS640 did have better black performance.

I got that same RS500 back 2 weekends ago and compared it to my RS4500 in my room and the RS4500 outperformed the RS500 by a small margin in black performance. We use that interstellar scene for the best black comparison. The RS4500 outperforms the RS500 on low APL black performance that's above 1% across the board.

The only JVC projector that has outperformed my RS4500 on that interstellar scene is the RS640.

Not sure which JVC you have, but the RS500 had better black performance than my old RS49u, RS35, and RS20 as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Here is what S&V review said:

Overall, subjective contrast was quite good, though it did fall short of my reference DLA-X750R. Intrascene contrast didn’t have the inky blacks of that projector, but overall performance was still fantastic for all but the most demanding dark material.
Read more at https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...sxGyWPuXVbB.99

-----------------

That's true with all projectors, even the Epsons, it is all but the most demanding material, but that's the point of having the best blacks is for the most demanding material. Unless you are comparing a DLP with horrible black levels, then that can affect a bit wider range of content.
That review was written prior to the v1.24 FW release that fixed the laser dimming and contrast performance on the RS4500.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Well it's good enough for you, it maxes out around 25k:1 native with the Iris closed and 150k:1 dynamic, I know what that looks like and I need it darker.

Direct comparisons are completely unnecessary for native contrast, no device bunks the trend, even TV's and monitors still follow the law of native contrast, and the ANSI of some TV's is off the charts, but it doesn't help much.

If you are trying to say the RS-4500 shoots above its Native Contrast spec, well then you are talking Dynamic Contrast...
With the iris closed, it gets near 80,000:1 native. The dynamic is infinity:1 because the laser can turn off. But it also goes to a point that's not off but is so dim you cannot tell if its on until you sit in a black room for greater than 15 seconds or so then you maybe see something. The dynamic contrast is much higher than the RS640 in this regard because the black floor can get lower. But in that setting it can also crush the whites to the point of being unusable. There are settings in between based on several setting factors. The way mine is set now is probably performing above 500,000:1 dynamic - based on how it compares to the RS500 and RS640.

Edit: the RS4500 also had better black performance than the NX9 when we did side-by-side of that.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.

Last edited by markmon1; 06-09-2019 at 05:25 AM.
markmon1 is offline  
post #18 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 05:24 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,929
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2349 Post(s)
Liked: 1271
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
You should probably just stop here. The native on RS4500 is nowhere near 8000:1. And the dynamic laser dimming is just so good it is super seamless most the time nothing like an iris. The way my RS4500 is configured, I think the native is probably around 45000:1. But the laser dimming is bringing it up much higher than that. Laser dimming works so well it's no fake out. Again, you haven't seen it in action.

That review was written prior to the v1.24 FW release that fixed the laser dimming and contrast performance on the RS4500.
I believe you, but if RS-4500 is outperforming the RS-500 in black levels, sounds like craziness. Someone needs to remeasure then... It is out of my budget so thankfully I'll never have to make this decision.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --
coderguy is offline  
post #19 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 05:27 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markmon1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,238
Mentioned: 100 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4418 Post(s)
Liked: 2768
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
I believe you, but if RS-4500 is outperforming the RS-500 in black levels, sounds like craziness. Someone needs to remeasure then... It is out of my budget so thankfully I'll never have to make this decision.
I don't think anyone has done any good measurements of dynamic contrast on RS4500 since it was fixed in FW 1.24 and compared it to dynamic contrast in RS500 / RS640 / NX9. I only did subjective side by sides, but don't have the tools to measure. If you're ever in the Portland Oregon area you should stop by and see for yourself.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
markmon1 is offline  
post #20 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 05:32 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,929
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2349 Post(s)
Liked: 1271
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
With the iris closed, it gets near 80,000:1 native. The dynamic is infinity:1 because the laser can turn off. But it also goes to a point that's not off but is so dim you cannot tell if its on until you sit in a black room for greater than 15 seconds or so then you maybe see something. The dynamic contrast is much higher than the RS640 in this regard because the black floor can get lower. But in that setting it can also crush the whites to the point of being unusable. There are settings in between based on several setting factors. The way mine is set now is probably performing above 500,000:1 dynamic - based on how it compares to the RS500 and RS640.

Edit: the RS4500 also had better black performance than the NX9 when we did side-by-side of that.
The difference between the RS-640 and RS-440 is 'supposedly' a piece of plastic with a tiny hole in it that blocks light, pretty sad what they charge extra for, oh and hand picked panels and better lens (but that's an even bigger supposedly). As you may or may not know, I track lumens measurements and average them, the RS-6xx average 5% to 10% lower than the RS-5xx series which average 10% to 15% less bright than the RS-4xx. Which seems to correspond to this 'piece of light blocking plastic' theory and also seems to indicate a contrast ratio pattern given reduced light output. Though I haven't tested it myself, of course firmware differences as well disabling certain features.

However, I really don't have enough measurements to say its true with 100% certainty, let's say I'm 65% certain, but it's looking like all JVC really does to get get higher contrast is increase the light blocking amount in the second iris. Even the 'better panels' might be something their marketing made up entirely.

You can add the second iris by opening the case in some JVC's, wondering if I can mod the NX5 with this technique. I'm going to be experimenting on a JVC to see if I can replicate the change.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --

Last edited by coderguy; 06-09-2019 at 05:43 AM.
coderguy is offline  
post #21 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 07:27 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 15,681
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Liked: 7580
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
In what respects though, the native contrast translates relatively the same between every projector. Dynamic contrast is separate. Native contrast is the one measurement you can take to the bank.



You just like the other attributes better which is fine, but the RS4500's blacks are no match for the RS-640.


Laser dimming works extremely well on my RS4500. I don’t miss my RS600 at all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Craig Peer is offline  
post #22 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 08:40 AM
Toe
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Toe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 16,648
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2661 Post(s)
Liked: 3383
Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Have YOU compared the X9900 and the Z1/RS4500 in the same room on the same screen ? I have many times!

Contrast is far closer than you think!
Exactly. Nobody would pick the 640 in a direct comparison which I saw at the Springs shootout last year. The 4500 is the best projected image I've personally seen and it's a clear step up over the 640.
woofer, 12GAGE and llang269 like this.
Toe is online now  
post #23 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 08:50 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,929
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2349 Post(s)
Liked: 1271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post
Exactly. Nobody would pick the 640 in a direct comparison which I saw at the Springs shootout last year. The 4500 is the best projected image I've personally seen and it's a clear step up over the 640.
Everyone values different things...
If I was really concerned about all image aspects, I would be watching a TV.
That said, I'm sure the RS-4500 looks better in most ways, it should given Native 4k panels and better processing.

However, contrast is way underrated and sharpness is way overrated in this forum.
Color accuracy is also slightly overrated, it's nice to have, but being a few dE off just isn't the end of the world.

I've heard people tell me go look at the Sony's and the contrast looks almost the same, the contrast looked like crap except for the vw1100es. All the other Sony's look like Epsons.

People cherry pick the highest contrast anyone ever measured, but the truth is their panels are incredibly inconsistent even without degradation. Part of the problem is contrast is lost in the lens, and Sony's lens still have problems on SOME units (a good number). Then some have degrading panels. The contrast on Sonys is lost to the throw position, unless you get a perfect lens and have the perfect throw, your contrast is going to be 1/4 to 1/2 what the highest measurements say, and that is before degradation. The more issue with the lens, the more contrast that is lost to the throw position.

Based on what people have told me about the Sonys, cannot really trust this forum sometimes...

The problem is most people watch the wrong type of content when comparing black levels. Once you are at home and after watching a projector for 100+ hours, that's when you really know the differences.

There is a some fluff in this forum sometimes because people are:
(though also good information too)

1) Dealers
2) Owners that don't like hearing negative stuff
3) People that watched a few hours of content in a 'social' setting and think that is a good test. It's highly biased.
4) Purchase Justification
5) Mismatched brightness and/or watching the wrong content

I know I come off sounding negative sometimes, but the truth isn't always positive, spinning everything to a positive light is for sales people and politicians.
markmon1 and Archibald1 like this.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --

Last edited by coderguy; 06-09-2019 at 09:10 AM.
coderguy is offline  
post #24 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 09:09 AM
Toe
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Toe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 16,648
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2661 Post(s)
Liked: 3383
Blah, blah, blah......get back to us when you've seen a comparison.
Willie, woofer and llang269 like this.
Toe is online now  
post #25 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 09:13 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,929
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2349 Post(s)
Liked: 1271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post
Blah, blah, blah......get back to us when you've seen a comparison.
I'd never spend that kind of money on a projector, even at its newly discounted price.
Did compare $75,000 TV to the RS-640, have to say the 640 is my favorite so far, but haven't seen the nx9.

The TV and RS-640 were in the same room. Had the room to myself for 5 minutes or so.

Did the TV win, yes of course, but who cares...
I'm not going to post about it in this forum because it's irrelevant.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --
coderguy is offline  
post #26 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 09:22 AM
Toe
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Toe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 16,648
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2661 Post(s)
Liked: 3383
The JVC eshifters are overrated. They have image stability issues as you clamp the iris more and more which surprisingly to me, hardly anyone talks about here. Manni has mentioned several times now that the native 4k JVCs have solved this problem which has me very excited when I get one some day (assuming I stick with JVC which I most likely will). That is reason enough to steer clear of the eshifters. This is all coming from a guy (me) who owns a x790/RS540. I am looking forward to the day when I move on from this unit.
Archibald1 likes this.
Toe is online now  
post #27 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 09:27 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,929
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2349 Post(s)
Liked: 1271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post
The JVC eshifters are overrated. They have image stability issues as you clamp the iris more and more which surprisingly to me, hardly anyone talks about here. Manni has mentioned several times now that the native 4k JVCs have solved this problem which has ne very excited when I get one one day (assumingI stick with JVC which I most likely will). That is reason enough to steer clear of the eshifters. This is all coming from a guy (me) who owns a x790/RS540. I am looking forward to the day when I move on from this unit.
Very good point, but i sit 10' from 120" 2.35 / 106", so I still don't even know if native 4k will be worth it.

However, I know 4k is worth it for scope content at my seating distance IF and ONLY IF the movie was truly mastered in 4k, but how much difference between e-shift 4k and native 4k on a truly mastered 4k source, I honestly have no idea.

As far as scaling and image trickery, you can only improve resolution by approximately 50% even for still shots, I know because I spent 5 years working on a huge project that involved trying every possible trick to remaster 480p to higher resolution. There were literally scientists working on the problem. It was to improve aerial images for a research project. I would have been retired if I had solved the problem, but I came very close and was just short of the 'requirement'. Hence, you can make 480p look about halfway to 720p, but not make it look like 720p. This is based on not having extra source data though, so cannot speak to true 4k sources. This is applying all kinds of image tricks to each image individually as best fits to that specific image, even taken into account extra noise in a specific image, using AI algorithms based on gamma, etc... This doesn't work with video though because these were still shots and frame to frame consistency requirements ruin it for video. In video, you can improve it by about 20%, though that's simply an educated guess from my part.

I've seen plenty of native 4k at this point, but I need e-shift and native 4k projector in my own room to compare, and that's not going to happen anytime soon.
Toe likes this.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --

Last edited by coderguy; 06-09-2019 at 09:43 AM.
coderguy is offline  
post #28 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 09:51 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,929
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2349 Post(s)
Liked: 1271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post
That is reason enough to steer clear of the eshifters. This is all coming from a guy (me) who owns a x790/RS540. I am looking forward to the day when I move on from this unit.
Yah, but I think at -6 to -8 the contrast is still like super high on the RS-540, but I didn't have enough time with the RS-640 to test any of this, didn't even think about it anyhow.
Toe likes this.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --
coderguy is offline  
post #29 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 12:52 PM
Advanced Member
 
TheSony4KRises's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 543
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 406 Post(s)
Liked: 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Everyone values different things...
If I was really concerned about all image aspects, I would be watching a TV.
That said, I'm sure the RS-4500 looks better in most ways, it should given Native 4k panels and better processing.

However, contrast is way underrated and sharpness is way overrated in this forum.
Color accuracy is also slightly overrated, it's nice to have, but being a few dE off just isn't the end of the world.

I've heard people tell me go look at the Sony's and the contrast looks almost the same, the contrast looked like crap except for the vw1100es. All the other Sony's look like Epsons.

People cherry pick the highest contrast anyone ever measured, but the truth is their panels are incredibly inconsistent even without degradation. Part of the problem is contrast is lost in the lens, and Sony's lens still have problems on SOME units (a good number). Then some have degrading panels. The contrast on Sonys is lost to the throw position, unless you get a perfect lens and have the perfect throw, your contrast is going to be 1/4 to 1/2 what the highest measurements say, and that is before degradation. The more issue with the lens, the more contrast that is lost to the throw position.

Based on what people have told me about the Sonys, cannot really trust this forum sometimes...

The problem is most people watch the wrong type of content when comparing black levels. Once you are at home and after watching a projector for 100+ hours, that's when you really know the differences.

There is a some fluff in this forum sometimes because people are:
(though also good information too)

1) Dealers
2) Owners that don't like hearing negative stuff
3) People that watched a few hours of content in a 'social' setting and think that is a good test. It's highly biased.
4) Purchase Justification
5) Mismatched brightness and/or watching the wrong content

I know I come off sounding negative sometimes, but the truth isn't always positive, spinning everything to a positive light is for sales people and politicians.
Well I can chip in on that one as I have the Sony 1000es side by side with the rs600 for 2 years now.
The rs600 wins the day for scenes that have white credits on a black background (at the beginning or end of a flick for instance) or the occasional starfield in a sci fi movie......I don't know about you but I do not intend to watch hours and hours of footage that just has white credits on a black background

In other words everything else(sharpness , motion , ANSI ect) goes to the 1000es.

And I would agree with Woofer and Markon that there is something that a high end lens gives.

But make no mistake the JVC rs6XX series have beautiful blacks and I love the rs600(your 640 should be even better)

I personally am waiting for a 4k(or 8K) native projector that can match or exceed the contrast capabilities of the JVCrs6XX before pulling another financial trigger north of $15000 but that is just me.

In the meantime though do not underestimate the fine quality of the ARC-F lens in Sony's top end or obviously the one in the Z1 or NX9.
woofer and Archibald1 like this.
TheSony4KRises is offline  
post #30 of 82 Old 06-09-2019, 02:23 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Willie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The Bay - Green Bay, WI
Posts: 1,512
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 174 Post(s)
Liked: 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Everyone values different things...
If I was really concerned about all image aspects, I would be watching a TV.
That said, I'm sure the RS-4500 looks better in most ways, it should given Native 4k panels and better processing.

However, contrast is way underrated and sharpness is way overrated in this forum.
Color accuracy is also slightly overrated, it's nice to have, but being a few dE off just isn't the end of the world.

I've heard people tell me go look at the Sony's and the contrast looks almost the same, the contrast looked like crap except for the vw1100es. All the other Sony's look like Epsons.

People cherry pick the highest contrast anyone ever measured, but the truth is their panels are incredibly inconsistent even without degradation. Part of the problem is contrast is lost in the lens, and Sony's lens still have problems on SOME units (a good number). Then some have degrading panels. The contrast on Sonys is lost to the throw position, unless you get a perfect lens and have the perfect throw, your contrast is going to be 1/4 to 1/2 what the highest measurements say, and that is before degradation. The more issue with the lens, the more contrast that is lost to the throw position.

Based on what people have told me about the Sonys, cannot really trust this forum sometimes...

The problem is most people watch the wrong type of content when comparing black levels. Once you are at home and after watching a projector for 100+ hours, that's when you really know the differences.

There is a some fluff in this forum sometimes because people are:
(though also good information too)

1) Dealers
2) Owners that don't like hearing negative stuff
3) People that watched a few hours of content in a 'social' setting and think that is a good test. It's highly biased.
4) Purchase Justification
5) Mismatched brightness and/or watching the wrong content

I know I come off sounding negative sometimes, but the truth isn't always positive, spinning everything to a positive light is for sales people and politicians.
Here is a spin for you: What a load of hooey
Gary Lightfoot and Craig Peer like this.
Willie is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off