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-   -   JVC RS440U’s or Epson 6050 ub dilema (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/3075706-jvc-rs440u-s-epson-6050-ub-dilema.html)

Dilema 06-28-2019 09:58 AM

JVC RS440U’s or Epson 6050 ub dilema
 
Hi.
I have room where I am projecting on 150 inch screen, white celling white sofas windows. I can make it dark in the evening when windows are covered and all lights are off.

Dilemma like in the title. Is it worth to spend more on JVC?

6050 pros over JVC

- brighter (important for my P.C. gaming )
- lens cover
- better hdr configuration (I play movies from htpc only from hard drive)
-sharpness
- cheaper original replacements bulbs. I use approx 1000h a year. The alternative bulbs are equally cheap but from my exp they are usually poorer quality are dimmer or break quickly)
- 3D included (I receive 3D glasses with the projector) although I watch just few times a year.
- better shadow details
- shorter time on source/resolution change
- $600 cheaper (however in that price I don’t get mount nor spare bulb, but don’t need neither)


JVC over Epson
- better blacks ( not sure how much in my conditions )
- better contrast
- better picture Color feeling ?
- quieter in high lamp mode. Is it quiet in high lamp or distracting as Epson in high lamp?
- better picture structure (I watch 15 feet away from the screen)
- no dust in the optics

Can you guys advice is it worth it to spend extra keeping in mind my room and needs?

I am sensitive on picture quality and enjoy it but if it would be just a minimally better overall I prefer the extra features of Epson

Getting other JVC is out of my range. I know RS 540 would be best but this is too much.

Thanks in advice for advices and opinions.


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coderguy 06-28-2019 01:05 PM

Personal opinion is that I cannot take Epson seriously until they get a Native 4k panel, the wider pixel fill is too jarring looking. So regardless of whatever advantages Epson may have, the pixel fill kills the deal. Some people are not as bothered by it, but then again maybe they never used a JVC very long. The JVC has nice and smooth pixels, the Epson looks very digital, especially in clouds.

jeahrens 06-28-2019 01:13 PM

Based on the feedback in the 5050 owners thread and that your room isn't likely to allow the JVC to show its advantages, my vote would be the Epson. Yes the pixel gap Coderguy mentions is a factor, but I've seen an Epson 5040UB filling a 150+" scope screen and didn't find it objectionable. If possible audition one to make sure it isn't something you are bothered by.

Dilema 06-29-2019 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coderguy (Post 58237102)
Personal opinion is that I cannot take Epson seriously until they get a Native 4k panel, the wider pixel fill is too jarring looking. So regardless of whatever advantages Epson may have, the pixel fill kills the deal. Some people are not as bothered by it, but then again maybe they never used a JVC very long. The JVC has nice and smooth pixels, the Epson looks very digital, especially in clouds.

Well but the one I am debating is also e-shifter. Both RS440U’s (x590r) and 6050ub are eshifters.

I believe they do it slightly different thus Epson is sharper than JVC.

Other than that will I see big difference in overall picture on my room between these two? Have you compared them or similar ones? Is it worth spending extra $600 and loosing some Epson’s advantages as the picture would be much better?

DavidHir 06-29-2019 07:50 AM

The RS440 is no longer being made unless you're looking used. I've been very happy with mine.

The 5050 is cheaper than the 6050 while PQ should be the same.

Dilema 06-29-2019 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidHir (Post 58239128)
The RS440 is no longer being made unless you're looking used. I've been very happy with mine.

The 5050 is cheaper than the 6050 while PQ should be the same.

I can actually get both of these new.

6050 is slightly better on contrast. 1.2Mil vs 1.0 Mil. And is black chassis what is nicer to me.

DavidHir 06-29-2019 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilema (Post 58239142)
I can actually get both of these new.

6050 is slightly better on contrast. 1.2Mil vs 1.0 Mil. And is black chassis what is nicer to me.

That is just how they are stating dynamic contrast (not native) and the human eye cannot distinguish that kind of tiny difference.

Dilema 06-29-2019 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilema (Post 58239606)
Anyway. Is it worth paying extra for x790r based on my original post?

I meant x590r of course 😉

zombie10k 06-29-2019 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilema (Post 58239606)
Anyway. Is it worth paying extra for x790r based on my original post?

How close are you sitting to the screen? I calibrated a 5050 recently, they are nice projectors for the price. The issue for me with the Epson LCD's is the wide pixel gap, the widest of all the current projector display technologies. even with the e-shift activated it doesn't fully eliminate it. It can give the perception of more sharpness but find it a little distracting overall. The JVC's have the smallest gap between pixels for reference and find the image appears more 'solid' and less digital in appearance.

The JVC bare lamps are avail from a member here in classifieds / dealer section for an excellent price.

You can't go wrong either way. Let us know how you make out once you make the decision.


https://hometheaterphotos.com/projec...5040-pixel.jpg

Dilema 06-29-2019 12:48 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Thanks for advice. I am sitting quite far and I do not see pixels on my current FHD projector which is 7 years old. So this would not have the major impact I believe.

Let me wait for some other opinions if worth to pay extra $600 for X590.
In the meantime Ive reached some info on the web. There are tests of these two in one of German HiFi magazines. According to their scores the machines are equal.

6050ub test and score 87 of 100, picture 65of75:

http://audiovision.de/epson-eh-tw9400-test/

Dla-x5900 test and score 87 of 100, picture 65 of 75:

http://audiovision.de/jvc-dla-x5900-test/

If that would be the case I pick up Epson.

coderguy 06-29-2019 02:26 PM

The only reason for you to choose an Epson is if you need the extra brightness in torch mode and/or want to save the $600. Since you have a 150" screen, you could use the extra brightness probably. There are other factors to consider, like the resale value and longevity of the machine. JVC and Epsons are definitely not equal, the JVC's have a better build quality, much higher contrast, and a better resale value in the used market.

Dilema 06-30-2019 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coderguy (Post 58240396)
The only reason for you to choose an Epson is if you need the extra brightness in torch mode and/or want to save the $600. Since you have a 150" screen, you could use the extra brightness probably. There are other factors to consider, like the resale value and longevity of the machine. JVC and Epsons are definitely not equal, the JVC's have a better build quality, much higher contrast, and a better resale value in the used market.

Have you checked the articles I have quoted? Can use google translate. They made quite advanced tests. In some areas one is better in some another when it comes to picture quality. Look at ANSI contrasts. Epson is better. Colours on Epson also are assessed great. As well as on JVC.

What is interesting the black levels are just a bit better on X5900 vs 6050ub. Only if there is total dark the difference is bigger they say. At very low level of white elements on the screen they’ve measured 0.27 lumen vs 0.28 lumen on Epson. This is only 4% better or so.

On/off contrast definitely goes to JVC of being minimum 1:10k vs up to 1:7k on Epson. How that is visible when watching movies?

Coderguy, Maybe you are writing about higher step up models of JVC? As said I know x790 would be superior but I cant get it for decent money as I can the other two.


Taking into account my white celling and furnitures I would probably see no or just little difference of blacks in movies. In games there are no almost complete dark scenes. Moreover when gaming I have some ambient light from other parts of the house.

Some other opinions or experiences on the question? I can spend extra on X590. Wouldn't some of you do that? Will be using the projector many years as I always do so not taking reselling value under consideration now since the both will be worth a lot less in 5-7 years time.

coderguy 06-30-2019 04:45 AM

Anyone can do tests (few can do accurate tests), as most of those tests are not accurate. The Epsons dynamic contrast algorithms are rough compared to JVC IMO, their DI is not comparable.

In the end, pixel fill is what matters and you have to decide on brighter image with worse pixel fill (Epson), or more film-like image (JVC). The other differences are going to be more negligible, not decision worthy.

For gaming, they are both almost equal, for movies, JVC wins.

Luminated67 06-30-2019 05:54 AM

@Dilema only you can determine whether the perceived pixel gap is an issue for you. I’ve own the European equivalent to the Epson 6050 and I’ve seen the x7900 along with Sony 4K projectors, with my eyes and from my viewing distance I don’t notice the pixel gap at all and against the JVC I feel the Epson appears sharper. So really you need to demo each of them to see which you feel is best, one thing is certain in your current room conditions you won’t gain any benefit of the JVC’s superior black levels.

DavidHir 06-30-2019 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilema (Post 58241632)
Have you checked the articles I have quoted? Can use google translate. They made quite advanced tests. In some areas one is better in some another when it comes to picture quality. Look at ANSI contrasts. Epson is better. Colours on Epson also are assessed great. As well as on JVC.

What is interesting the black levels are just a bit better on X5900 vs 6050ub. Only if there is total dark the difference is bigger they say. At very low level of white elements on the screen they’ve measured 0.27 lumen vs 0.28 lumen on Epson. This is only 4% better or so.

On/off contrast definitely goes to JVC of being minimum 1:10k vs up to 1:7k on Epson. How that is visible when watching movies?

Coderguy, Maybe you are writing about higher step up models of JVC? As said I know x790 would be superior but I cant get it for decent money as I can the other two.


Taking into account my white celling and furnitures I would probably see no or just little difference of blacks in movies. In games there are no almost complete dark scenes. Moreover when gaming I have some ambient light from other parts of the house.

Some other opinions or experiences on the question? I can spend extra on X590. Wouldn't some of you do that? Will be using the projector many years as I always do so not taking reselling value under consideration now since the both will be worth a lot less in 5-7 years time.

The X590 will do 15K to 30K native (depending on iris setting) while the Epson will be around 5-6K. I had a 5040 (similar enough to the 6050) very briefly and my RS440 has much better blacks, but my room is a black pit too. In mediocre rooms the perceptual differences here will be small.

Dilema 07-01-2019 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidHir (Post 58244432)
The X590 will do 15K to 30K native (depending on iris setting) while the Epson will be around 5-6K. I had a 5040 (similar enough to the 6050) very briefly and my RS440 has much better blacks, but my room is a black pit too. In mediocre rooms the perceptual differences here will be small.

Ok great - so you had similar model and RS440. Blacks are better but not too much in my room right? What about brightness and sharpness between these two? Colors? Overall picture, except of black performance what we know is better. Worth spending extra $600 keeping in mind my moderately dedicated room ( generally big and bright room with only dark wooden floor) and gaming needs as well?

I've just had a chance to see a 5050 in the mart and the SDE from my viewing distance is not an issue. Picture looked very sharp and crisp. Definitely much better sharpness than my Panny AU8000.

On this German site they've tested 5040ub as well and the results were much poorer than 6050ub:

http://audiovision.de/epson-eh-tw9300w-test/

Picture score 61 vs 66/75 on new model. 6050 has better contrasts, colors and blacks (the measured 0.41 lumens on the screen with tiny white elements vs 0.28 lumens on new model). Can the new model be so much better?

Luminated67 07-01-2019 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilema (Post 58244952)
Ok great - so you had similar model and RS440. Blacks are better but not too much in my room right? What about brightness and sharpness between these two? Colors? Overall picture, except of black performance what we know is better. Worth spending extra $600 keeping in mind my moderately dedicated room ( generally big and bright room with only dark wooden floor) and gaming needs as well?

I've just had a chance to see a 5050 in the mart and the SDE from my viewing distance is not an issue. Picture looked very sharp and crisp. Definitely much better sharpness than my Panny AU8000.

On this German site they've tested 5040ub as well and the results were much poorer than 6050ub:

http://audiovision.de/epson-eh-tw9300w-test/

Picture score 61 vs 66/75 on new model. 6050 has better contrasts, colors and blacks (the measured 0.41 lumens on the screen with tiny white elements vs 0.28 lumens on new model). Can the new model be so much better?

It’s odd how anyone can assume the 5040ub is similar enough to the 6050ub when the facts are it’s quite a significant improvement in so many ways, the media has moved on from SDR and we are embracing HDR at every opportunity which I might add the new Epson unlike the old one is truly brilliant at, also mine was measured at 8K contrast so less than the JVC but again better than before. Where the Epson really scores big time is the potential brightness on offer which will be a benefit in your room.

If you were intending to blacken out your room with velvet, floor, walls and ceiling the whole deal then I’d maybe suggest a different approach but since you aren’t seeing the pixel gap as an issue (no surprise to me) I’d see if some dealer would demo one in your room to see how good it looks, I’m sure you wouldn’t be disappointed.

DavidHir 07-01-2019 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminated67 (Post 58245000)
It’s odd how anyone can assume the 5040ub is similar enough to the 6050ub when the facts are it’s quite a significant improvement in so many ways, the media has moved on from SDR and we are embracing HDR at every opportunity which I might add the new Epson unlike the old one is truly brilliant at, also mine was measured at 8K contrast so less than the JVC but again better than before. Where the Epson really scores big time is the potential brightness on offer which will be a benefit in your room.

If you were intending to blacken out your room with velvet, floor, walls and ceiling the whole deal then I’d maybe suggest a different approach but since you aren’t seeing the pixel gap as an issue (no surprise to me) I’d see if some dealer would demo one in your room to see how good it looks, I’m sure you wouldn’t be disappointed.

And I'm not sure why you're assuming the 6050 is some revolutionary upgrade. From what I have been told, it's the same light engine and panel as last year with some small tweaks. 6K vs 8K contrast won't look a lot different.

DavidHir 07-01-2019 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilema (Post 58244952)
Ok great - so you had similar model and RS440. Blacks are better but not too much in my room right? What about brightness and sharpness between these two? Colors? Overall picture, except of black performance what we know is better. Worth spending extra $600 keeping in mind my moderately dedicated room ( generally big and bright room with only dark wooden floor) and gaming needs as well?

I've just had a chance to see a 5050 in the mart and the SDE from my viewing distance is not an issue. Picture looked very sharp and crisp. Definitely much better sharpness than my Panny AU8000.

On this German site they've tested 5040ub as well and the results were much poorer than 6050ub:

http://audiovision.de/epson-eh-tw9300w-test/

Picture score 61 vs 66/75 on new model. 6050 has better contrasts, colors and blacks (the measured 0.41 lumens on the screen with tiny white elements vs 0.28 lumens on new model). Can the new model be so much better?

The RS440 will also have a better lens, tighter pixel gap (as mentioned), and a slightly more organic image. To me it's a no-brainer for only $600 more.

I know some tweaks were done on the 6050, but it's not going to look day and night from last year's model. More of a small incremental upgrade at most.

jeahrens 07-01-2019 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidHir (Post 58245564)
The RS440 will also have a better lens, tighter pixel gap (as mentioned), and a slightly more organic image. To me it's a no-brainer for only $600 more.

I know some tweaks were done on the 6050, but it's not going to look day and night from last year's model. More of a small incremental upgrade at most.

Although I agree that the differences you state will all be pluses for the JVC, a 150" screen in an all white room just seems more likely to benefit from the less costly higher output option. Neither option is a bad one. I just feel like the Epson is a better fit with that setup.

I'm not sure where you would find a new RS440 at this point, but if it's $600 more than a 5050ub that seems a bit pricey compared to the outgoing RS540 pricing.

coderguy 07-01-2019 09:33 AM

As others have said, it all comes down to brightness.

6k:1 to 8k:1 is invisible without an A/B, and even with an A/B it's mostly invisible. You need about 50% increase to see it easily in an A/B, so I can see 3000 to 4500, but 6000 to 8000 pretty borderline, could go either way. To see the difference without an A/B, really need to double it, or even better triple it, then that looks quite a bit different when tripling it or more.

Besides that fact, many people measured the contrast on the 5040 to 5050 the same anyhow, some measured different, but that happens every year from sample variance and measurement error.

Luminated67 07-01-2019 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidHir (Post 58245550)
And I'm not sure why you're assuming the 6050 is some revolutionary upgrade. From what I have been told, it's the same light engine and panel as last year with some small tweaks. 6K vs 8K contrast won't look a lot different.

And yet those that have actually upgraded to the new one have said it’s noticeably better, likewise the pixel gap has been reduced and the e-shift improved. Not saying the contrast improve it huge because it’s not but it’s still better. What’s significantly better is it’s HDR performance, something that is right up there with the very best.

BTW my contrast measurement was right after calibration but there’s little point throwing out contrast ratios when the room isn’t optimised to benefit because bottom line is in a white room they’ll all not look that difference but what you will see is it’s superior brightness which will be necessary with a large screen. The guy that did mine said in something’s the JVC was better but in others the Epson was superior, in his opinion it’s a cracker machine.

BTW pixel gap with e-shift on at approximately 1 foot away from screen.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5824/g5ePhI.jpg

DavidHir 07-01-2019 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeahrens (Post 58245760)
Although I agree that the differences you state will all be pluses for the JVC, a 150" screen in an all white room just seems more likely to benefit from the less costly higher output option. Neither option is a bad one. I just feel like the Epson is a better fit with that setup.

I'm not sure where you would find a new RS440 at this point, but if it's $600 more than a 5050ub that seems a bit pricey compared to the outgoing RS540 pricing.

I tend to agree, hence, my "mediocre room" comment in the other post. On the other hand, $600 is not a lot of money relatively speaking when comparing these projectors at these respective price points. Also, something to consider is if the room can be improved over time (it's an evolution for many people...just look at the black room improvement thread. A countless number of people started with white walls...then went darker...and darker...). Availability of the RS440 and 540 is another matter.

DavidHir 07-01-2019 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminated67 (Post 58246960)
And yet those that have actually upgraded to the new one have said it’s noticeably better, likewise the pixel gap has been reduced and the e-shift improved. Not saying the contrast improve it huge because it’s not but it’s still better. What’s significantly better is it’s HDR performance, something that is right up there with the very best.

BTW my contrast measurement was right after calibration but there’s little point throwing out contrast ratios when the room isn’t optimised to benefit because bottom line is in a white room they’ll all not look that difference but what you will see is it’s superior brightness which will be necessary with a large screen. The guy that did mine said in something’s the JVC was better but in others the Epson was superior, in his opinion it’s a cracker machine.

BTW pixel gap with e-shift on at approximately 1 foot away from screen.

I think the 5050 is hands down the best new $3000 MSRP projector available today. If that was my absolute price limit and I wanted a brand new projector, I would go for it in a heartbeat. The DLP options at that price and below don't hold a candle to it IMO.

jeahrens 07-02-2019 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidHir (Post 58247350)
I tend to agree, hence, my "mediocre room" comment in the other post. On the other hand, $600 is not a lot of money relatively speaking when comparing these projectors at these respective price points. Also, something to consider is if the room can be improved over time (it's an evolution for many people...just look at the black room improvement thread. A countless number of people started with white walls...then went darker...and darker...). Availability of the RS440 and 540 is another matter.

You're right that, depending on how tight the budget is, $600 isn't a huge amount of money. But with the RS540 comfortably under $4K (when you could find them), $3600 seems a bit steep for an RS440. Don't get me wrong, I owned an RS520 and do feel either model offers improvements vs. the Epson. Just with that particular setup the Epson seems to be a better choice and costs less. If the room is going to be repainted and treated to get it as dark as possible, the conversation would be different.

As far as value goes there have been used RS5xx models popping up with low hours for less than the Epson that offer an unbeatable value proposition IMO. As long as you're OK with used.

EDIT: I got wind of B-stock NX5 pricing. Definitely something the original poster should be checking out if $3600 is within reach.

Luminated67 07-02-2019 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeahrens (Post 58249202)
You're right that, depending on how tight the budget is, $600 isn't a huge amount of money. But with the RS540 comfortably under $4K (when you could find them), $3600 seems a bit steep for an RS440. Don't get me wrong, I owned an RS520 and do feel either model offers improvements vs. the Epson. Just with that particular setup the Epson seems to be a better choice and costs less. If the room is going to be repainted and treated to get it as dark as possible, the conversation would be different.

As far as value goes there have been used RS5xx models popping up with low hours for less than the Epson that offer an unbeatable value proposition IMO. As long as you're OK with used.

EDIT: I got wind of B-stock NX5 pricing. Definitely something the original poster should be checking out if $3600 is within reach.

That was what I also said, choice is very dependent on environment and in this particular case where contrast will suffer and lumens are key the Epson is the most logical choice, picture wise it’s very sharp, HDR is top notch and it offer all the extras usually associated with much more expensive brands.

jeahrens 07-02-2019 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminated67 (Post 58249520)
That was what I also said, choice is very dependent on environment and in this particular case where contrast will suffer and lumens are key the Epson is the most logical choice, picture wise it’s very sharp, HDR is top notch and it offer all the extras usually associated with much more expensive brands.

Yup I've not changed my original recommendation. The RSxxx or NX5 options would be worth considering IF changes to the room are forthcoming. Even then the 5050 is still going to be a great performer in a well treated room.

Luminated67 07-02-2019 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeahrens (Post 58249634)
Yup I've not changed my original recommendation. The RSxxx or NX5 options would be worth considering IF changes to the room are forthcoming. Even then the 5050 is still going to be a great performer in a well treated room.

It IS a great performer, I should know as my room is fully treated with velour everywhere.

Mike Garrett 07-02-2019 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminated67 (Post 58249744)
It IS a great performer, I should know as my room is fully treated with velour everywhere.

Then a higher contrast projector would be a better performer. The 6050/5050 projector is a good projector, but in a good light controlled room, The higher contrast is easily noticeable.

Luminated67 07-02-2019 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Garrett (Post 58249806)
Then a higher contrast projector would be a better performer. The 6050/5050 projector is a good projector, but in a good light controlled room, The higher contrast is easily noticeable.

At the time if I could have got a few deal on an x7900 I would have probably have got it but even with the best price I find the difference was £1650 ($2080) and frankly I question if it’s worth it.


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