Name a 2019-2020 laser UHD long throw projector - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 19Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 46 Old 08-08-2019, 02:43 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,844
Mentioned: 234 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12025 Post(s)
Liked: 9545
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
In my research I actually could not find anything in the scientific literature which supports the oft stated decline to 50% output @ 20k hrs at full power. IMHO, this figure is mostly fictitious and dreamed up by legal to provide protection from lawsuits if the projectors should dim rapidly.

I've attached a excerpt from this Barco whitepaper:

https://www.barco.com/~/media/downlo...aper%20pdf.pdf

The problem with the predicted output decline is that it represents values that cannot be actually measured in the lab and probably represent a conservative guess based upon grossly overheating and overdriving (over current) the laser over a short time, plotting the decline in output and then extrapolating that to come up with a number. One would expect that these numbers could be verified via field reports from commercial cinemas but I haven't found any data on that.

If we use this an an example and apply it to a UHZ65 running in Dynamic Black mode, where average output is less than 100%, and might approximate 65%, we can see that no age related dimming is likely to occur during the operational life of the projector.
Try talking to the manufacturers and see what they have to say. See how fictitious it actually is.

Added the engineers are often times at CEDIA.
Mike Garrett is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 46 Old 08-08-2019, 02:58 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 15,943
Mentioned: 110 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6728 Post(s)
Liked: 7861
Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
In my research I actually could not find anything in the scientific literature which supports the oft stated decline to 50% output @ 20k hrs at full power. IMHO, this figure is mostly fictitious and dreamed up by legal to provide protection from lawsuits if the projectors should dim rapidly.

I've attached a excerpt from this Barco whitepaper:

https://www.barco.com/~/media/downlo...aper%20pdf.pdf

The problem with the predicted output decline is that it represents values that cannot be actually measured in the lab and probably represent a conservative guess based upon grossly overheating and overdriving (over current) the laser over a short time, plotting the decline in output and then extrapolating that to come up with a number. One would expect that these numbers could be verified via field reports from commercial cinemas but I haven't found any data on that.

If we use this an an example and apply it to a UHZ65 running in Dynamic Black mode, where average output is less than 100%, and might approximate 65%, we can see that no age related dimming is likely to occur during the operational life of the projector.
There are too many variables, so how quickly a laser projector dims to 50% of the original brightness will depend on whether you are running at 100% laser all the time. A JVC engineer did say that lasers only have so many lumens to give, and once they are gone, they are gone. Choose your laser projector and screen size / type wisely. I like 20 foot lamberts for 1080p material, so even being down 20% ( 16 foot lamberts ) would bum me out.

Note that this Barco has " constant light output mode ". Most or all consumer home theater laser projectors do not have this feature. So they will dim.

Last edited by Craig Peer; 08-08-2019 at 03:03 PM.
Craig Peer is online now  
post #33 of 46 Old 08-08-2019, 03:18 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Out West
Posts: 1,096
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 621 Post(s)
Liked: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
There are too many variables, so how quickly a laser projector dims to 50% of the original brightness will depend on whether you are running at 100% laser all the time. A JVC engineer did say that lasers only have so many lumens to give, and once they are gone, they are gone. Choose your laser projector and screen size / type wisely. I like 20 foot lamberts for 1080p material, so even being down 20% ( 16 foot lamberts ) would bum me out.

Note that this Barco has " constant light output mode ". Most or all consumer home theater laser projectors do not have this feature. So they will dim.
Most consumer home theatre laser projectors have dynamic dimming and will not run continuously at full power, but rather at some average power level less than maximum even though maximum output is available when content demands it - hence 20k hrs to 50% is grossly misleading since it is based upon constant full power. Most laser projectors can set reduced power levels, and 80% output will roughly double time to 50% output.
Aztar35 likes this.
DunMunro is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #34 of 46 Old 08-08-2019, 03:35 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Out West
Posts: 1,096
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 621 Post(s)
Liked: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
There are too many variables, so how quickly a laser projector dims to 50% of the original brightness will depend on whether you are running at 100% laser all the time. A JVC engineer did say that lasers only have so many lumens to give, and once they are gone, they are gone. Choose your laser projector and screen size / type wisely. I like 20 foot lamberts for 1080p material, so even being down 20% ( 16 foot lamberts ) would bum me out.

Note that this Barco has " constant light output mode ". Most or all consumer home theater laser projectors do not have this feature. So they will dim.
Lets examine dynamic dimming based upon BenQ's estimates of 20k hrs at 100%, 40k hrs at 80% and 85K hrs at 50%.

If the average power level with dynamic dimming is 50% then time to dim 20% at full power, would be 34k hrs. Time to dim 5% would 8.4k hrs.
DunMunro is online now  
post #35 of 46 Old 08-08-2019, 04:24 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 15,943
Mentioned: 110 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6728 Post(s)
Liked: 7861
Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
Lets examine dynamic dimming based upon BenQ's estimates of 20k hrs at 100%, 40k hrs at 80% and 85K hrs at 50%.

If the average power level with dynamic dimming is 50% then time to dim 20% at full power, would be 34k hrs. Time to dim 5% would 8.4k hrs.
I hope I do get many more hours our of my laser than the estimated 35K hours to 1/2 brightness I expect - which doesn't take laser dimming into account. That's very hard to factor in. I'll see what kind of lumens Kris Deering measures when he is here and see if we can compare that to what Chad B. measured previously.
Craig Peer is online now  
post #36 of 46 Old 08-08-2019, 05:39 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Aztar35's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 2,934
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2345 Post(s)
Liked: 1236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I hope I do get many more hours our of my laser than the estimated 35K hours to 1/2 brightness I expect - which doesn't take laser dimming into account. That's very hard to factor in. I'll see what kind of lumens Kris Deering measures when he is here and see if we can compare that to what Chad B. measured previously.
Hi, Craig. I would think by the time your RS4500 gives up the ghost/becomes too dim, you'll be ready for the next latest and greatest.

I consider you to be one heck of an enthusiast, and the fact that you own a laser projector over a lamp one speaks volumes, to me at least. The narrative here has been long life, but it's really much more than that. There's something very special about a solid state image that is plain to see but at times difficult to verbalize.
Aztar35 is offline  
post #37 of 46 Old 08-08-2019, 06:00 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,844
Mentioned: 234 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12025 Post(s)
Liked: 9545
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I hope I do get many more hours our of my laser than the estimated 35K hours to 1/2 brightness I expect - which doesn't take laser dimming into account. That's very hard to factor in. I'll see what kind of lumens Kris Deering measures when he is here and see if we can compare that to what Chad B. measured previously.
You need the same person, using the same equipment, to get accurate results.
Mike Garrett is online now  
post #38 of 46 Old 08-08-2019, 06:03 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,844
Mentioned: 234 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12025 Post(s)
Liked: 9545
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Hi, Craig. I would think by the time your RS4500 gives up the ghost/becomes too dim, you'll be ready for the next latest and greatest.

I consider you to be one heck of an enthusiast, and the fact that you own a laser projector over a lamp one speaks volumes, to me at least. The narrative here has been long life, but it's really much more than that. There's something very special about a solid state image that is plain to see but at times difficult to verbalize.
Exactly and that will happen long before 20,000 hours.
Mike Garrett is online now  
post #39 of 46 Old 08-08-2019, 06:44 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Out West
Posts: 1,096
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 621 Post(s)
Liked: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Try talking to the manufacturers and see what they have to say. See how fictitious it actually is.

Added the engineers are often times at CEDIA.

That's the thing. I can't find any data on actual dimming rates of commercial laser projectors
DunMunro is online now  
post #40 of 46 Old 08-08-2019, 08:32 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,844
Mentioned: 234 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12025 Post(s)
Liked: 9545
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
That's the thing. I can't find any data on actual dimming rates of commercial laser projectors
That is why it is good to have access to the engineers.
Mike Garrett is online now  
post #41 of 46 Old 08-08-2019, 10:39 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Aztar35's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 2,934
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2345 Post(s)
Liked: 1236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
That is why it is good to have access to the engineers.
You know what, those Ferraris at the time were driven by a belt that operated the cars' timing mechanisms. The belts had to be changed every 30K miles or three years, whichever happened first. But my understanding was that the timing belts themselves had a different rating that said they were good for 60K miles. Soooo, whenever I asked the techs/pros which was which, they always erred on the side of caution and said even if it just sits without being driven an inch, at three years, change the belts unless you want a breakage to cause a valve to shoot through a piston. Why take the risk?

With that tangential story in mind, why then would the projector engineers not err on a conservative number consistent with general specs? I guess I can still ask them what they thought about laser life. I'm also curious about why laser projected images look cleaner than lamp images.
Aztar35 is offline  
post #42 of 46 Old 08-09-2019, 05:44 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,844
Mentioned: 234 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12025 Post(s)
Liked: 9545
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
You know what, those Ferraris at the time were driven by a belt that operated the cars' timing mechanisms. The belts had to be changed every 30K miles or three years, whichever happened first. But my understanding was that the timing belts themselves had a different rating that said they were good for 60K miles. Soooo, whenever I asked the techs/pros which was which, they always erred on the side of caution and said even if it just sits without being driven an inch, at three years, change the belts unless you want a breakage to cause a valve to shoot through a piston. Why take the risk?

With that tangential story in mind, why then would the projector engineers not err on a conservative number consistent with general specs? I guess I can still ask them what they thought about laser life. I'm also curious about why laser projected images look cleaner than lamp images.
There is a big difference. You are talking about a part, that if it breaks, while driving, can damage the car. Where as the light source dying, does not cause damage and is really not meant to be changed. The light source is meant to last the lifetime or more, of the projector. So for your car example, you would want to go conservative, but for the projector, you would not have that need, because it is not a maintenance replaced part.

But really, all I would be concerned with is how the light source does, going to 10,000 hours. Because less than 1% of projector owners go past 10,000 hours. In fact very few even go 5,000 hours.

My RS3000 has the same clean look as my RS4500 did, so it is possible for lamp based projectors to have the same look as a laser. So it must have something to do with the design because the 3000 is using the same bulb as the last three generations of lamp based JVC's. There is clearly a difference between the new models and the old models, in this respect. Maybe it is easier to have a clean looking image with laser, I do not know.
Aztar35 likes this.
Mike Garrett is online now  
post #43 of 46 Old 08-09-2019, 08:25 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 15,943
Mentioned: 110 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6728 Post(s)
Liked: 7861
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Hi, Craig. I would think by the time your RS4500 gives up the ghost/becomes too dim, you'll be ready for the next latest and greatest.

I consider you to be one heck of an enthusiast, and the fact that you own a laser projector over a lamp one speaks volumes, to me at least. The narrative here has been long life, but it's really much more than that. There's something very special about a solid state image that is plain to see but at times difficult to verbalize.
Honestly, once I have a really good projector, changing it can be a lot of work and of course expensive. I'm super happy with my RS4500. With my wife starting a business, it's not unrealistic that I won't be in a position to replace it for another 4 or 5 years. That's not much different from my Sim2 Lumis Host - which I had 7 1/2 years. At 35K hours to 1/2 brightness, if I put 600 hours a year on my projector for the next 5 years ( I have 1485 or so hours on it now ), I might have 5000 total hours on it by 2025. It would take around 7000 hours to be down 10% lumen wise.

Native 4K and laser was my dream projector for years. I'm lucky to be living the dream !!

Last edited by Craig Peer; 08-09-2019 at 08:30 AM.
Craig Peer is online now  
post #44 of 46 Old 08-09-2019, 01:39 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Aztar35's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 2,934
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2345 Post(s)
Liked: 1236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Honestly, once I have a really good projector, changing it can be a lot of work and of course expensive. I'm super happy with my RS4500. With my wife starting a business, it's not unrealistic that I won't be in a position to replace it for another 4 or 5 years. That's not much different from my Sim2 Lumis Host - which I had 7 1/2 years. At 35K hours to 1/2 brightness, if I put 600 hours a year on my projector for the next 5 years ( I have 1485 or so hours on it now ), I might have 5000 total hours on it by 2025. It would take around 7000 hours to be down 10% lumen wise.

Native 4K and laser was my dream projector for years. I'm lucky to be living the dream !!
That's awesome to hear!
Craig Peer likes this.
Aztar35 is offline  
post #45 of 46 Old 08-09-2019, 02:40 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
woofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: SwiftsCreek, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 1,429
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1383 Post(s)
Liked: 2118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Honestly, once I have a really good projector, changing it can be a lot of work and of course expensive. I'm super happy with my RS4500. With my wife starting a business, it's not unrealistic that I won't be in a position to replace it for another 4 or 5 years. That's not much different from my Sim2 Lumis Host - which I had 7 1/2 years. At 35K hours to 1/2 brightness, if I put 600 hours a year on my projector for the next 5 years ( I have 1485 or so hours on it now ), I might have 5000 total hours on it by 2025. It would take around 7000 hours to be down 10% lumen wise.

Native 4K and laser was my dream projector for years. I'm lucky to be living the dream !!
Same for myself, i intend to use and enjoy my Z1/RS4500 for many years to come.

The reality also is that i cant see anything in the foreseeable future that would exceed the Z1/RS4500,s overall performance ( without spending CRAZY amounts of coin!) .....it will take one hell of a projector to achieve that!

Sometimes , too often people change for the sake of change!
Craig Peer, Aztar35 and JeffR1 like this.
woofer is online now  
post #46 of 46 Old 08-09-2019, 03:52 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 15,943
Mentioned: 110 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6728 Post(s)
Liked: 7861
The RS4500 is pretty much a bargain these days ( in the USA anyway ), and the Sony VW885es in on sale until August 31st ( $5K off from Sony ). When you keep and enjoy these laser projectors for years, they aren't that expensive in the long run.
woofer and Aztar35 like this.
Craig Peer is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off