Name a 2019-2020 laser UHD long throw projector - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 46 Old 08-06-2019, 04:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Name a 2019-2020 laser UHD long throw projector

Are these absent in the below $16k market? I see a plethora of short throw machines.

Still fond of my Epson LS10500 but cannot find anything full HDR for a comparable price.

The almost instant startup and 20k hour lamp life without fading and lack of huge heat production
are revolutionary and comparable to what I experienced when I got my BEV car. Is it just old habits
and the need to sell lamps?

Sorry if I ignored some of the information earlier posted here, just don't have 12h to spend
reading up.

Many thanks!

2x-Panamax-5510Pro(high/low) > Harmony-659 > Marantz-UD9004(bal.2+RCA7.1)/Panny-UB900/Pio-48AV/CM-7000PAL/Roku-Premiere+/Dell-E7450 > Marantz-AV8802A/Classé-CP700(bypass)/King-Cobra-all > Epson-LS10500/Carada-1.4/LG-27UD58 > 2xSherbourn-5/1500A 2xParasound-Zamp-v.3> Belden 10AWG/silver/gold > Paradigm-S8v.2-7.1.4(Servo15v2/P-80A)

Last edited by bobpaule; 08-06-2019 at 04:08 AM.
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post #2 of 46 Old 08-06-2019, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobpaule View Post
Are these absent in the below $16k market? I see a plethora of short throw machines.



Still fond of my Epson LS10500 but cannot find anything full HDR for a comparable price.



The almost instant startup and 20k hour lamp life without fading and lack of huge heat production

are pretty much equivalent to what I experienced when I got my BEV car, I never want to drive a

smoker again



Sorry if I ignored some of the information earlier posted here, just don't have 12h to spend

reading up.



Many thanks!
Optoma uhz65

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
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post #3 of 46 Old 08-06-2019, 04:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank You! The Optoma is a 2017, given DLP with limited vertical shift it will not work for my high ceiling positioning. 3D is also poor.

2x-Panamax-5510Pro(high/low) > Harmony-659 > Marantz-UD9004(bal.2+RCA7.1)/Panny-UB900/Pio-48AV/CM-7000PAL/Roku-Premiere+/Dell-E7450 > Marantz-AV8802A/Classé-CP700(bypass)/King-Cobra-all > Epson-LS10500/Carada-1.4/LG-27UD58 > 2xSherbourn-5/1500A 2xParasound-Zamp-v.3> Belden 10AWG/silver/gold > Paradigm-S8v.2-7.1.4(Servo15v2/P-80A)

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post #4 of 46 Old 08-06-2019, 08:08 AM
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I am surprised that JVC and Sony have not introduced a reasonably priced laser projector. I think they are just saving it for their really high-end products because that's the best way to justify the price and people who buy those projectors won't go DLP because of the low contrast. I think the only thing that would make JVC or Sony put lasers in the lower end models would be for DLP to be competitive in contrast but I don't see that happening.
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post #5 of 46 Old 08-06-2019, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobpaule View Post
Are these absent in the below $16k market? I see a plethora of short throw machines.

Still fond of my Epson LS10500 but cannot find anything full HDR for a comparable price.

The almost instant startup and 20k hour lamp life without fading and lack of huge heat production
are revolutionary and comparable to what I experienced when I got my BEV car. Is it just old habits
and the need to sell lamps?

Sorry if I ignored some of the information earlier posted here, just don't have 12h to spend
reading up.

Many thanks!
BenQ HT9060 (LED)




EDIT: I note, above, that the lens shift on the UHZ65 is insufficient.

TheoZ65:

Last edited by DunMunro; 08-06-2019 at 09:54 AM.
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post #6 of 46 Old 08-06-2019, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddylee123 View Post
I am surprised that JVC and Sony have not introduced a reasonably priced laser projector. I think they are just saving it for their really high-end products because that's the best way to justify the price and people who buy those projectors won't go DLP because of the low contrast. I think the only thing that would make JVC or Sony put lasers in the lower end models would be for DLP to be competitive in contrast but I don't see that happening.
In the Cine4home tear down of the recent JVC 4K lamp series, there is high evidence that it was built with laser in mind for future updates. Ideally by fall 2020 we would see one of their 4K models + laser @ 10K to disrupt this part of the market (native 4K, fully automated lens controls, high native contrast), similar to what Sony did with breaking the native 4K price barrier in 2017 @5K MSRP with the VW285.
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post #7 of 46 Old 08-06-2019, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
In the Cine4home tear down of the recent JVC 4K lamp series, there is high evidence that it was built with laser in mind for future updates. Ideally by fall 2020 we would see one of their 4K models + laser @ 10K to disrupt this part of the market (native 4K, fully automated lens controls, high native contrast), similar to what Sony did with breaking the native 4K price barrier in 2017 @5K MSRP with the VW285.
You won't. Maybe fall 2022. I doubt there will be any meaningful change to either Sony or JVC's line this year. And the RS4500 will continue as is. That's one reason they brought out new HDR tone mapping firmware.

Epson is the big question mark. But if I'd held my breath for something new from Epson - especially native 4K, for the last 2 Cedia's, I'd be dead.
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post #8 of 46 Old 08-06-2019, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
In the Cine4home tear down of the recent JVC 4K lamp series, there is high evidence that it was built with laser in mind for future updates. Ideally by fall 2020 we would see one of their 4K models + laser @ 10K to disrupt this part of the market (native 4K, fully automated lens controls, high native contrast), similar to what Sony did with breaking the native 4K price barrier in 2017 @5K MSRP with the VW285.
That's pretty cool about the teardown, I had no idea. I have a feeling that Sony will be the first to bring out an affordable native 4K laser projector and that will force JVCs hand.
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post #9 of 46 Old 08-06-2019, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
You won't. Maybe fall 2022. I doubt there will be any meaningful change to either Sony or JVC's line this year. And the RS4500 will continue as is. That's one reason they brought out new HDR tone mapping firmware.

Epson is the big question mark. But if I'd held my breath for something new from Epson - especially native 4K, for the last 2 Cedia's, I'd be dead.
Thanks for the info Craig, 3 years from now seems like a long time to move the laser into the new chassis. Who knows what the market will be like by then, hopefully some good surprises before that time.

Epson should be able to do native 4K LCD panels by now, there's several rumors floating around on this one. Maybe something at IFA this year which is a few days before Cedia.
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post #10 of 46 Old 08-06-2019, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
You won't. Maybe fall 2022. I doubt there will be any meaningful change to either Sony or JVC's line this year. And the RS4500 will continue as is. That's one reason they brought out new HDR tone mapping firmware.

Epson is the big question mark. But if I'd held my breath for something new from Epson - especially native 4K, for the last 2 Cedia's, I'd be dead.
Epson really surprises me, they have dropped the ball on native 4K
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post #11 of 46 Old 08-06-2019, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Buddylee123 View Post
That's pretty cool about the teardown, I had no idea. I have a feeling that Sony will be the first to bring out an affordable native 4K laser projector and that will force JVCs hand.
check it out here if you haven't seen it. that big opening is just waiting for a laser

http://cine4home.de/exklusiver-tear-...er-dissektion/

We were also surprised by a potential second light entry, which appeared behind a tin lid. Apparently, the Light engine is also designed for a dual light source (laser / LED), which is not (yet) used in the case of the N series.
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post #12 of 46 Old 08-06-2019, 03:00 PM
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JVC generally has around a 4 year cadence on big changes. The lamp based 4K models haven't been out quite a year, so as Craig points out I really wouldn't expect anything soon. Perhaps an Epson 4K native HDR laser LCD at less than $10K would spur a reaction if sales were greatly impacted. With the high pricing on Sony 4K bulb based units I don't see them being the one to upset the market with a low cost laser option.

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post #13 of 46 Old 08-06-2019, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you all.

IMHO going laser is like getting a battery EV, once you try it you never go back.

The instant power up, very low heat emission, and never fading lamp for 20k hours
make it priceless.
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2x-Panamax-5510Pro(high/low) > Harmony-659 > Marantz-UD9004(bal.2+RCA7.1)/Panny-UB900/Pio-48AV/CM-7000PAL/Roku-Premiere+/Dell-E7450 > Marantz-AV8802A/Classé-CP700(bypass)/King-Cobra-all > Epson-LS10500/Carada-1.4/LG-27UD58 > 2xSherbourn-5/1500A 2xParasound-Zamp-v.3> Belden 10AWG/silver/gold > Paradigm-S8v.2-7.1.4(Servo15v2/P-80A)
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post #14 of 46 Old 08-06-2019, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Thanks for the info Craig, 3 years from now seems like a long time to move the laser into the new chassis. Who knows what the market will be like by then, hopefully some good surprises before that time.

Epson should be able to do native 4K LCD panels by now, there's several rumors floating around on this one. Maybe something at IFA this year which is a few days before Cedia.
Well, you and I have been into home theater a long time. One thing I've learned since 2003 - it takes way longer for new things / technology to come out than anyone would possibly guess. Over the years I've learned to expect nothing new but hope I'm wrong. A lot less disappointment then. look how long it took 4K to come out - both source material and more than one brand of projectors. This industry moves like a glacier in winter. However, we have pretty nice projectors to watch in the mean time !
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post #15 of 46 Old 08-07-2019, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Thanks for the info Craig, 3 years from now seems like a long time to move the laser into the new chassis. Who knows what the market will be like by then, hopefully some good surprises before that time.

Epson should be able to do native 4K LCD panels by now, there's several rumors floating around on this one. Maybe something at IFA this year which is a few days before Cedia.
You will see laser on the commercial side first and then maybe a year later on the consumer side. So look for the VS3000 to become an actual selling product. I do not know if that will happen in 2020 or later. If it happens in 2020, then there is a possibility of laser RS3000 replacement introduced at CEDIA 2020, but I do not expect it to happen that quickly.
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Originally Posted by bobpaule View Post
Thank you all.

IMHO going laser is like getting a battery EV, once you try it you never go back.

The instant power up, very low heat emission, and never fading lamp for 20k hours
make it priceless.
If the spec on the laser projector is 20k in high laser, that means it has lost half of it's light output at 20K. In other words, it certainly does dim, just at a much slower rate than lamp based. With a laser projector, I would make sure the light output at 75% still worked for you. That way you can be assured of 5,000 hours minimum for your setup.

Added
My math is wrong above. It should be 87.5% at 5,000 hours, not 75%. Note I said high laser, so this would be worse case.

Last edited by Mike Garrett; 08-08-2019 at 08:10 AM.
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post #17 of 46 Old 08-07-2019, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Buddylee123 View Post
Epson really surprises me, they have dropped the ball on native 4K
In the US, the LS series was not a great success, so I am not sure that Epson wants to go even higher in the marketplace.
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post #18 of 46 Old 08-07-2019, 11:41 AM
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You will see laser on the commercial side first and then maybe a year later on the consumer side. So look for the VS3000 to become an actual selling product. I do not know if that will happen in 2020 or later. If it happens in 2020, then there is a possibility of laser RS3000 replacement introduced at CEDIA 2020, but I do not expect it to happen that quickly.
Remember how long it took between seeing a VW1100 laser prototype and the actual VW885 ? That was 2 or 3 years lead time I think.
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post #19 of 46 Old 08-07-2019, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
You won't. Maybe fall 2022. I doubt there will be any meaningful change to either Sony or JVC's line this year. And the RS4500 will continue as is. That's one reason they brought out new HDR tone mapping firmware.

Epson is the big question mark. But if I'd held my breath for something new from Epson - especially native 4K, for the last 2 Cedia's, I'd be dead.
Do you not think Sony may address the auto tone mapping feature JVC's new models have, and the price gap between their middle end products (695ES and RS2000) in their 2020 models which I guess would be launched end 2019?
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Do you not think Sony may address the auto tone mapping feature JVC's new models have, and the price gap between their middle end products (695ES and RS2000) in their 2020 models which I guess would be launched end 2019?
Who knows. The safe bet is specs slightly improve and model numbers change and they call it good.
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Remember how long it took between seeing a VW1100 laser prototype and the actual VW885 ? That was 2 or 3 years lead time I think.
I think it was three years.
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Originally Posted by cdnscg View Post
Do you not think Sony may address the auto tone mapping feature JVC's new models have, and the price gap between their middle end products (695ES and RS2000) in their 2020 models which I guess would be launched end 2019?
I would not bet that they would. Last year, JVC announced their prices a day ahead of Sony. So I thought for sure that Sony would adjust their prices, but they didn't.
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post #23 of 46 Old 08-07-2019, 03:32 PM
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If the spec on the laser projector is 20k in high laser, that means it has lost half of it's light output at 20K. In other words, it certainly does dim, just at a much slower rate than lamp based. With a laser projector, I would make sure the light output at 75% still worked for you. That way you can be assured of 5,000 hours minimum for your setup.
I'm not sure which laser projector option you're talking about, but are you suggesting that running at high laser for 5,000 hours that a laser projector would be reduced to only 75% of its initial light output?
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post #24 of 46 Old 08-07-2019, 05:12 PM
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Laser Life:

See my post here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...l#post58395228



Here Sony states up to 100,000hr (~57% output) laser life:

Quote:
Recommended light replacement time *3 (Standard/Middle/
Low) >20,000 H / >20,000 H / 100,000 H
https://www.fullcompass.com/common/f...ctBrochure.pdf
here Sony states 14000hrs with completely stable 4500 lumen output at 90% output:

https://www.projectorcentral.com/pdf..._spec_9864.pdf

A UHZ65 in dynamic black mode will have a very long and stable laser output.
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post #25 of 46 Old 08-07-2019, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
Laser Life:

See my post here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...l#post58395228



Here Sony states up to 100,000hr (~57% output) laser life:



here Sony states 14000hrs with completely stable 4500 lumen output at 90% output:

https://www.projectorcentral.com/pdf..._spec_9864.pdf

A UHZ65 in dynamic black mode will have a very long and stable laser output.
Great stuff...and to quote "these are erroneous because of the assumption of 100% power when most use dynamic power levels. A better estimate would be ~60K hrs to 50% if using dynamic power input."
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post #26 of 46 Old 08-07-2019, 11:38 PM
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I'm not sure which laser projector option you're talking about, but are you suggesting that running at high laser for 5,000 hours that a laser projector would be reduced to only 75% of its initial light output?
I know of a Z1/RS4500 that has in excess of 5000hrs on it that has run 100% High Laser and has NO measurable drop off in lumens..
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post #27 of 46 Old 08-08-2019, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
I'm not sure which laser projector option you're talking about, but are you suggesting that running at high laser for 5,000 hours that a laser projector would be reduced to only 75% of its initial light output?
Sorry, I should have said make sure you have enough light output at 87.5%, not 75%. You should be down to 87.5% at 5,000 hours if used in high laser. That is not a lot of loss. 75% loss should occur at 10,000 hours, if used in high laser. I doubt very many people put 10,000 on their projector, before upgrading.
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post #28 of 46 Old 08-08-2019, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobpaule View Post
Are these absent in the below $16k market? I see a plethora of short throw machines.

Still fond of my Epson LS10500 but cannot find anything full HDR for a comparable price.

The almost instant startup and 20k hour lamp life without fading and lack of huge heat production
are revolutionary and comparable to what I experienced when I got my BEV car. Is it just old habits
and the need to sell lamps?

Sorry if I ignored some of the information earlier posted here, just don't have 12h to spend
reading up.

Many thanks!
Check out BenQ HT9060 and BenQ LK990. The HT9060 has better picture quality but is 1700 lumens calibrated in p3; the LK990 can only do rec709 w/less accurate color and has more rbe but is twice as bright as the ht9060.

So the ht9060 will nearly double your Epson in brightness and the lk990 will be nearly 4x as bright as the Epson
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post #29 of 46 Old 08-08-2019, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Sorry, I should have said make sure you have enough light output at 87.5%, not 75%. You should be down to 87.5% at 5,000 hours if used in high laser. That is not a lot of loss. 75% loss should occur at 10,000 hours, if used in high laser. I doubt very many people put 10,000 on their projector, before upgrading.
No..no...that's fine. But as you know, I have a solid state projector and what I'm interested in is how do we know that these laser projectors dim linearly. Any links to any studies would be much appreciated.

For example, a flood can burst a dam but intermittent drops of heavy rain may actually do nothing.

Here's another example: all my Ferraris (three samples) exhausted their fuel tanks "prematurely" when the cars were driven at higher RPMs. However, each resulted in significantly more mileage when driven at an average of sub 3,000 RPMs. Carrying over your postulation here ...if my fuel gauge stated 400 miles 'til empty, whether I drove 100 miles at 40 MPH or at 65, I would still have 300 miles left 'til empty. But in reality, that wasn't the case.
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post #30 of 46 Old 08-08-2019, 12:57 PM
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In my research I actually could not find anything in the scientific literature which supports the oft stated decline to 50% output @ 20k hrs at full power. IMHO, this figure is mostly fictitious and dreamed up by legal to provide protection from lawsuits if the projectors should dim rapidly.

I've attached a excerpt from this Barco whitepaper:

https://www.barco.com/~/media/downlo...aper%20pdf.pdf

The problem with the predicted output decline is that it represents values that cannot be actually measured in the lab and probably represent a conservative guess based upon grossly overheating and overdriving (over current) the laser over a short time, plotting the decline in output and then extrapolating that to come up with a number. One would expect that these numbers could be verified via field reports from commercial cinemas but I haven't found any data on that.

If we use this an an example and apply it to a UHZ65 running in Dynamic Black mode, where average output is less than 100%, and might approximate 65%, we can see that no age related dimming is likely to occur during the operational life of the projector.
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