X790 eShift. Not true 4k but does it increase sharpness and do you use it often? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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X790 eShift. Not true 4k but does it increase sharpness and do you use it often?

I just put a deposit down for the X790. I simply cannot afford the NX7 nor justify the NX5.

If I get the X790 and use eShift, will it improve the sharpness vs without eShift? Do you use eShift most of the time on your X790? Hoping eShift will be more than just a gimic and give me a boost in sharpness while I wait for NX7/NX9 or higher contrast to come down to more affordable levels. I understand eShift isn't true 4k and apparently there are some drawbacks such as video noise etc, but I am hoping using eShift gives a sharper picture vs without eShift.

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post #2 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 09:38 AM
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With native UHD sources, eshift is a benefit on the X790. Always use it.

Upscaling 1080p to eshift, it really depends. I use the Panasonic 820 and upscaling regular Blu-ray does give a very softer, yet smoother image yet native 1080p is still a tad sharper.
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post #3 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc View Post
I just put a deposit down for the X790. I simply cannot afford the NX7 nor justify the NX5.



If I get the X790 and use eShift, will it improve the sharpness vs without eShift? Do you use eShift most of the time on your X790? Hoping eShift will be more than just a gimic and give me a boost in sharpness while I wait for NX7/NX9 or higher contrast to come down to more affordable levels. I understand eShift isn't true 4k and apparently there are some drawbacks such as video noise etc, but I am hoping using eShift gives a sharper picture vs without eShift.
I own an Epson 6050 and prefer the image depth when converting 1080P to 4k using Epson's version of Eshift. The depth really makes a difference for football. Feels like you are watching in person from better seats than actually exist inside the stadium. I assume the 790 feels the same. You will have fun testing out what you prefer.

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post #4 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc View Post
I just put a deposit down for the X790. I simply cannot afford the NX7 nor justify the NX5.

If I get the X790 and use eShift, will it improve the sharpness vs without eShift? Do you use eShift most of the time on your X790? Hoping eShift will be more than just a gimic and give me a boost in sharpness while I wait for NX7/NX9 or higher contrast to come down to more affordable levels. I understand eShift isn't true 4k and apparently there are some drawbacks such as video noise etc, but I am hoping using eShift gives a sharper picture vs without eShift.
There's a nice comparison of the X790 to some true 4K projectors here:

https://rehders.de/test-spezial-jvc-...aeren-erleben/ (use google translate to your language of choice)

open the comparison photos in a new tab for full resolution.
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post #5 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
There's a nice comparison of the X790 to some true 4K projectors here:

https://rehders.de/test-spezial-jvc-...aeren-erleben/ (use google translate to your language of choice)

open the comparison photos in a new tab for full resolution.
I’ve just this minute looked at the close ups and of the three IMHO it’s the Sony that looks the best close up though I think the x7900 does an excellent job considering it’s only 2K.

Is it me or does there look to be a bit more noise with the N7 compared to the others.

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post #6 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
With native UHD sources, eshift is a benefit on the X790. Always use it.

Upscaling 1080p to eshift, it really depends. I use the Panasonic 820 and upscaling regular Blu-ray does give a very softer, yet smoother image yet native 1080p is still a tad sharper.
So are you saying using eShift with 1080p sources is sometimes sharper and sometimes softer?

I should qualify that much of my material will come from BD on a PS3 and an OPPO and of course some Netflix but not necessarily anything higher than 1080p.
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post #7 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 11:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
There's a nice comparison of the X790 to some true 4K projectors here:

https://rehders.de/test-spezial-jvc-...aeren-erleben/ (use google translate to your language of choice)

open the comparison photos in a new tab for full resolution.
Thanks. I will check this out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skylarlove1999 View Post
I own an Epson 6050 and prefer the image depth when converting 1080P to 4k using Epson's version of Eshift. The depth really makes a difference for football. Feels like you are watching in person from better seats than actually exist inside the stadium. I assume the 790 feels the same. You will have fun testing out what you prefer.

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Yes, it will be lot's of fun.

I was really hoping that despite not having higher resolution, the eShift will act like a slight sharpness increase but I guess it is not that straight forward. Upgrading from a Sony HW45ES at least the contrast and blacks will be hugely improved.
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post #8 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by cpc View Post
Thanks. I will check this out.







Yes, it will be lot's of fun.



I was really hoping that despite not having higher resolution, the eShift will act like a slight sharpness increase but I guess it is not that straight forward. Upgrading from a Sony HW45ES at least the contrast and blacks will be hugely improved.
The tough part about the eshift for images that are less than 4K is it will expose the weaknesses in the original content. As an example ESPN football looks fine on a 65 inch television but ESPN has a 720P broadcast signal so enlarging that image to 120 inches or more and using eshift to produce more viewable pixels on screen can make the image look softer than with the eshift off. CBS and NBC use a 1080P broadcast signal and I think eshift doesn't really introduce a softness that is discernible except to the most trained eye. I let my Panasonic ub820 upscale blurays to 4K and pass that signal to my Epson 6050 and the image looks fantastic. The benefit of upscaling broadcast 1080P to me for sports is the depth that just isn't present into the 1080P signal. As @MississippiMan will attest I don't take the best pictures but here are some images upscaled to 4k. I do not pause so the image might look blurry but when I pause I get a huge banner across the image. This is actually a Roku Ultra playing YouTubeTV

.

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post #9 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 11:40 AM
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Here's what my experience was with a JVC RS520 using e-shift for all material. For 1080P there was a slight softening of the image due to less visible pixel structure and more active pixels in the same area vs. e-shift off. However I found the slight softening to be worth the trade off for a smoother picture with much less aliasing (that jagged crawl you get when you see a window blind or stairs in films). So I would definitely use e-shift with 1080P. Others prefer the sharper more digital look. It's easy to switch, so can go either way.

For 4K it's really a no-brainer. No downsides here.

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post #10 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 12:06 PM
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I’m with @skylarlove1999 in that I too prefer my Epson to do the upscaling instead of letting the Panasonic Blu-ray player to do it. Imo the Blu-ray player upscale image looks softer compared to when the Epson does it which looks crisper.

So I would assume the same would be true for the x7900

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post #11 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
I’ve just this minute looked at the close ups and of the three IMHO it’s the Sony that looks the best close up though I think the x7900 does an excellent job considering it’s only 2K.

Is it me or does there look to be a bit more noise with the N7 compared to the others.
You opened up the images in a new tab and you think the Sony is sharper than the N7. Are you sure you did not get confused which was which, because they are not labeled, when you open them in a new tab. The Sony looks haze/out of focus compared to the JVC N7.
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post #12 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
I’m with @skylarlove1999 in that I too prefer my Epson to do the upscaling instead of letting the Panasonic Blu-ray player to do it. Imo the Blu-ray player upscale image looks softer compared to when the Epson does it which looks crisper.

So I would assume the same would be true for the x7900
Really depends on the equipment. Epson applies fairly aggressive sharpening vs. the JVC. Which isn't necessarily better or worse, they're just different here. The best upscaling I experienced with the RS520 was letting the Panasonic UB820 do it with a tick of high frequency sharpness applied in the player settings.

On a different note, none of the 4 Sony native 4K units I've seen in person had near the sharpness or resolution the NX7 does. They lack the processing to properly show a 4K single pixel pattern and all of the lenses had some degree of uniformity problems. The NX7 is sharp edge to edge. It really exceeded what I was expecting from it here. Of course sample variance is a thing. But overall the owners thread shows really excellent results.


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post #13 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by cpc View Post
So are you saying using eShift with 1080p sources is sometimes sharper and sometimes softer?

I should qualify that much of my material will come from BD on a PS3 and an OPPO and of course some Netflix but not necessarily anything higher than 1080p.
It's easy enough to try either way. When I got my RS600, I used eshift on for everything. Then someone mentioned that 1080p wasn't as sharp. I could never decide which I liked better - it was close.
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post #14 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
It's easy enough to try either way. When I got my RS600, I used eshift on for everything. Then someone mentioned that 1080p wasn't as sharp. I could never decide which I liked better - it was close.
I agree 100% with Craig. Slight differences with positives and negatives for on and off. For sports I prefer it on for the added dimensionality.

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post #15 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by cpc View Post
So are you saying using eShift with 1080p sources is sometimes sharper and sometimes softer?

I should qualify that much of my material will come from BD on a PS3 and an OPPO and of course some Netflix but not necessarily anything higher than 1080p.
With Eshift, I've found watching a 1080p movie or 1080p sharpness pattern, I've always found 1080p native (no eshift) to be very slightly sharper.

However, if you use a good upscaling player (like the 820) forcing eshift it does give a smoothness to the image that some can prefer. Oppo's Blu-ray upscaling is pretty good.

Either way, the difference is not huge although one's mileage may vary. For example, people who use MadVr claim upscaling 1080p to 4K/eshift is always an improvement. But MadVr is also widely considered to provide the best upscaling.

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post #16 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
You opened up the images in a new tab and you think the Sony is sharper than the N7. Are you sure you did not get confused which was which, because they are not labeled, when you open them in a new tab. The Sony looks haze/out of focus compared to the JVC N7.



The top is the Sony and the bottom the JVC

I do get what you are saying about blurry, but to me these two images remind me of what image enhancement does with my Epson with the Sony looking like Epson on image enhancement preset 1 and the JVC on preset 4, it’s crisper but when you zoom further in its at the expense of graininess and dare I say possible convergence issues. In fact if you look closely both JVCs have convergence problems.

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post #17 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skylarlove1999 View Post
I think eshift doesn't really introduce a softness that is discernible except to the most trained eye. I let my Panasonic ub820 upscale blurays to 4K and pass that signal to my Epson 6050 and the image looks fantastic. The benefit of upscaling broadcast 1080P to me for sports is the depth that just isn't present into the 1080P signal. As @MississippiMan will attest I don't take the best pictures but here are some images upscaled to 4k. I do not pause so the image might look blurry but when I pause I get a huge banner across the image.

.

Hey ! How'd I get dragged into this discussion?


My experience with JVC e-Shift5 projectors, using the Projector's on-Board e-Shift5 processing is / has always be excellent, but also wholly dependent upon Content. HD-HDTV Broadcasts left nothing to be desired. Well authored 1080p BlueRays...ditto. UHD-4K was of course pristine.

That said.....I've always noted that the Epson 5040 had a marginally sharper e-Shifted image, albeit one with more noticeable pixelation. For me that small degree of sharpness difference was...and remains not enough to warrant losing the smoothness of the LyCos image....if the availability and budget could be accommodated.

I have installed & viewed both the NX7 and the NX9 and the Native 4K itself was a "to die for" experience. I also never had any reason to complain about the on-Board 4K up-conversion. But again...knowing what the Epsons' can accomplish for me with 150" screen+ makes them a favorite when I need sheer Lumen horsepower as well as a "nearly impeccable image.

Speaking of impeccable, the @skylarlove1999 "in-motion" image above is "pdg", but still is a bit fuzzy. It takes some deal of practice to capture such images....such as developing an intrinsic feeling for when the motion (...or lack thereof...) is ideally suited, and being able to hit the shutter button without causing Camera shake. I used to use a tripod and a timer, but time...and about a quadzillion screenies taken has made such dictates a unnecessary concern.

Screenies taken using 40% zoom from back behind the seating (minimal distance) to frame the image, and with some care to catch motion at a minimum is what makes for success. Below are a couple 2-3 examples I just took a couple days ago.



JVC-RS440 we-Shift5.
Black Fame Painted Drywall Screen
1080p to 4K up-Conversion "In-Motion Video"
2 from outside Theater Room Door / 1 in Theater w/40% Zoom from 15'

















But even with all, the images shown are not as sharp as they look in person...and...................not as sharp as they would using a Epson 5040/50
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post #18 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by cpc View Post
I just put a deposit down for the X790. I simply cannot afford the NX7 nor justify the NX5.
@cpc


You chose..........wisely.

I share your feelings about the worthiness of the x790r for it's price point, decidedly so on every level against the NX5, and at least reasonably so compared to the NX7 due to the latter's cost and lessor Native Contrast. Native 4K ain't "all that" when it comes at such a premium.

That was a real coup finding a x790r......and unless you paid too much (doubtful) your buy-in totally justifies doing a eventual upgrade to a more affordable JVC native 4K in a couple 2-3 years on. Who knows but they just might make thier new Laser DLP PJ reasonably affordable......by then.

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post #19 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc View Post
I just put a deposit down for the X790. I simply cannot afford the NX7 nor justify the NX5.

If I get the X790 and use eShift, will it improve the sharpness vs without eShift? Do you use eShift most of the time on your X790? Hoping eShift will be more than just a gimic and give me a boost in sharpness while I wait for NX7/NX9 or higher contrast to come down to more affordable levels. I understand eShift isn't true 4k and apparently there are some drawbacks such as video noise etc, but I am hoping using eShift gives a sharper picture vs without eShift.
Congrats on your choice of the x790. I use e-shift all of the time on the x990. As others have noted, you will observe the greatest improvement with a good 4k source.

I have chosen to stay with the x990 and wait for a yet unreleased projector to upgrade, using the panny 820 to maximize 4kHDR blu-ray playback.

Good luck with your new projector. It will be a substantial upgrade and improvement over your older Sony sxrd.
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post #20 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
I’ve just this minute looked at the close ups and of the three IMHO it’s the Sony that looks the best close up though I think the x7900 does an excellent job considering it’s only 2K.

Is it me or does there look to be a bit more noise with the N7 compared to the others.
That's my conclusion as well. Look at the street lamp and shadow, behind the bus, and you can see some nasty artifacts in the NX-7 image while the Sony looks very clean.
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post #21 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
I’ve just this minute looked at the close ups and of the three IMHO it’s the Sony that looks the best close up though I think the x7900 does an excellent job considering it’s only 2K.

Is it me or does there look to be a bit more noise with the N7 compared to the others.
Unfortunately the angles the pictures were taken are clearly different. And I can't really say whether the camera or the projector is imparting what looks to be fringing. The Sony has less detail in some areas, but has less fringing in others. I'd say too much variation in the captures to tell much.

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Unfortunately the angles the pictures were taken are clearly different. And I can't really say whether the camera or the projector is imparting what looks to be fringing. The Sony has less detail in some areas, but has less fringing in others. I'd say too much variation in the captures to tell much.
Who knows, I suppose the people that were present at the test are the only ones that could say for sure but based solely on what I am seeing the Sony looks the most natural for the reasons I highlighted.

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post #23 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
Who knows, I suppose the people that were present at the test are the only ones that could say for sure but based solely on what I am seeing the Sony looks the most natural for the reasons I highlighted.
I agree the Sony photo shows less ringing and color fringing overall. Color looks more solid too.

But look at Arrow AVs Quick Brown Fox test as well as the full field 4K single pixel test and compare that with the JVC. There's simply no way the Sony would show more detail. And we don't see the odd color fringing in other images captured from the JVCs. Just here.

The JVC's both have about 600-700 more calibrated lumens showing HDR (almost twice the Sony) so my guess is this is impacting the camera sensor and blowing things out.


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post #24 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 02:21 PM
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I agree the Sony photo shows less ringing and color fringing overall. Color looks more solid too.

But look at Arrow AVs Quick Brown Fox test as well as the full field 4K single pixel test and compare that with the JVC. There's simply no way the Sony would show more detail. And we don't see the odd color fringing in other images captured from the JVCs. Just here.

The JVC's both have about 600-700 more calibrated lumens showing HDR so my guess is this is impacting the camera sensor and blowing things out.
I personally would never consider the entry level Sonys simply because their lumens and contrast are poor at best for the asking price. Ideally you would want to combine elements for both brands to create the perfect projector but reality this isn’t the case.

Myself I will wait until I feel JVC has perfected its 4K units or who knows Epson might release a Native 4K that might surprises us all but in the meantime I am more than happy with my 9400.

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post #25 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 02:30 PM
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I personally would never consider the entry level Sonys simply because their lumens and contrast are poor at best for the asking price. Ideally you would want to combine elements for both brands to create the perfect projector but reality this isn’t the case.

Myself I will wait until I feel JVC has perfected its 4K units or who knows Epson might release a Native 4K that might surprises us all but in the meantime I am more than happy with my 9400.
If you are waiting for perfection that may never come

As far as the current JVC 4K units go, I've not personally seen a better overall projected image. But then I've not seen any of the $10k plus laser offerings either. That will never realistically be in my budget.

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post #26 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 02:36 PM
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If you are waiting for perfection that may never come

As far as the current JVC 4K units go, I've not personally seen a better overall projected image. But then I've not seen any of the $10k plus laser offerings either. That will never realistically be in my budget.
I wouldn’t ever see myself spending 5 figures on a projector simply because I don’t use it enough, even my Epson which was bought in January has only 245hr on it but due to my natural of always wanting something newer/better I know I will upgrade within the next 2-3 years at least.

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post #27 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 02:38 PM
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I wouldn’t ever see myself spending 5 figures on a projector simply because I don’t use it enough, even my Epson which was bought in January has only 245hr on it but due to my natural of always wanting something newer/better I know I will upgrade within the next 2-3 years at least.
My NX7 with free bulb was less than twice what an Epson 5050 costs. But I realize that doesn't hold true over the pond.

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post #28 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 03:01 PM
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I just put a deposit down for the X790. I simply cannot afford the NX7 nor justify the NX5.

If I get the X790 and use eShift, will it improve the sharpness vs without eShift? Do you use eShift most of the time on your X790? Hoping eShift will be more than just a gimic and give me a boost in sharpness while I wait for NX7/NX9 or higher contrast to come down to more affordable levels. I understand eShift isn't true 4k and apparently there are some drawbacks such as video noise etc, but I am hoping using eShift gives a sharper picture vs without eShift.
Basically... You always want to feed an upscaled UHD source to the JVC if you can, so thats with an Oppo or Panasonic or Madvr etc. It can show much more detail with a UHD input than by feeding 1080p and using eshift. The JVC has negligible upscaling power, it does nothing at all.

The Panasonic are excellent upscalers.

If you must use 1080p input, I would probably leave eshift off. It will be more crisp.

Here is the difference between the 3 options on an older JVC with eshift 4. Regarding the model you have, its got eshift 5, which only makes these comparisons even more soft, especially with 1080p + Eshift on. I was not a fan of eshift 5.

So, use upscaling for best results...

UHD Input (E-Shift forced On)



Here is 1080p with E-Shift



Here is 1080p

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post #29 of 59 Old 09-05-2019, 02:32 AM
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My NX7 with free bulb was less than twice what an Epson 5050 costs. But I realize that doesn't hold true over the pond.
Unfortunately on this side of the water we get the equivalent to the 6050 minus the lamp and mount for £2550 which is less than half the retail price of the NX5 never mind it’s big brother. For me there would have to a significant improvement right across the board and frankly even with diminished returns I don’t believe the improvements justify the cost. Or should I say I’m not using my home cinema room enough to warrant the additional expense at the moment.

Epson EH-TW9400 - QualGear Fixed Frame 100” - Sony x700 BRP & Panasonic 420 BRP - Sony 1080 AVR - IPL Acoustics M1TLs & IPL Acoustics AVC Pro Centre, Four KEF surrounds & 2 Sub boxes (10” Sub + 10” Passive Radiator)
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post #30 of 59 Old 09-05-2019, 02:59 AM
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Basically... You always want to feed an upscaled UHD source to the JVC if you can, so thats with an Oppo or Panasonic or Madvr etc. It can show much more detail with a UHD input than by feeding 1080p and using eshift. The JVC has negligible upscaling power, it does nothing at all.

The Panasonic are excellent upscalers.

If you must use 1080p input, I would probably leave eshift off. It will be more crisp.

Here is the difference between the 3 options on an older JVC with eshift 4. Regarding the model you have, its got eshift 5, which only makes these comparisons even more soft, especially with 1080p + Eshift on. I was not a fan of eshift 5.

So, use upscaling for best results...

UHD Input (E-Shift forced On)



Here is 1080p with E-Shift



Here is 1080p


Could you share where you got these images and time stamp as I’d like to compare with my Epson to see if the results are similar.

Epson EH-TW9400 - QualGear Fixed Frame 100” - Sony x700 BRP & Panasonic 420 BRP - Sony 1080 AVR - IPL Acoustics M1TLs & IPL Acoustics AVC Pro Centre, Four KEF surrounds & 2 Sub boxes (10” Sub + 10” Passive Radiator)
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