JVC Announces Major HDR Update for 4K D-ILA Projectors - Page 12 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #331 of 575 Old 10-09-2019, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alebonau View Post
cloud gradients as in posteurisation/banding effect ? check that mpc is switched off ? this was a problem with even older JVC... I particularly remember the wonder woman scene on the beach and through the smoke on my x7000... am pretty sure even posted a picture of it on this forum to be advised to switch off MPC... likely impacting the same here.
No its not the MPC, I have all those settings to OFF. I mean that the gradients make the frame adapt go a bit crazy, adjusting the light level up and down (which is the light output for the whole of the picture). Kind of hard to explain but I hope you understand how I mean. It just looked weird and not right.
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post #332 of 575 Old 10-09-2019, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jbarteli View Post
Wasn't that CMD?
I think would be right there too ! I got that off too ! was a long time ago turned it off when first saw impact... really shouldn't be seeing gradients banding posterisation in first place

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post #333 of 575 Old 10-09-2019, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Drem View Post
No its not the MPC, I have all those settings to OFF. I mean that the gradients make the frame adapt go a bit crazy, adjusting the light level up and down (which is the light output for the whole of the picture). Kind of hard to explain but I hope you understand how I mean. It just looked weird and not right.
CMD ? motion control ?

shouldn't be seeing gradients in first place ?

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post #334 of 575 Old 10-09-2019, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post
CMD ? motion control ?

shouldn't be seeing gradients in first place ?
I am describing the gradient part wrong and yes I mean MPC (too early in the morning here ) I dont mean posterization gradients, but more like all the different light and grey shifts in the cloud and sky area. Seemed to make the frame adapt go a bit crazy in those scenes. I am curious if other get the same result in these scenes, with the setting on HDR level High and frame by frame mode.
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post #335 of 575 Old 10-09-2019, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Drem View Post
I am describing the gradient part wrong and yes I mean MPC (too early in the morning here ) I dont mean posterization gradients, but more like all the different light and grey shifts in the cloud and sky area. Seemed to make the frame adapt go a bit crazy in those scenes. I am curious if other get the same result in these scenes, with the setting on HDR level High and frame by frame mode.
ah I see ... no worries ....

I see what mean...quite a bit of dynamic range in the picture ? perhaps as you say scene by scene is better choice here and high maybe just too much good thing

I cant wait to watch the movie myself ... been while since seen it
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post #336 of 575 Old 10-10-2019, 02:12 AM
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The following remark is mentioned on the firmware update version 3.1:

The "Pin cushion correction" function cannot be used after executing this upgrade.
If you continue to use "Pin cushion correction" function please use "v2.10" firmware.


Can you please explain what Pin cushion is?
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post #337 of 575 Old 10-10-2019, 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by KRP-600M View Post
The following remark is mentioned on the firmware update version 3.1:

The "Pin cushion correction" function cannot be used after executing this upgrade.
If you continue to use "Pin cushion correction" function please use "v2.10" firmware.


Can you please explain what Pin cushion is?
It's that horrible digital correction for not having your screen plumb on the wall. No one should ever use pincushion or keystone.
Pincushion is that effect where say the middle of the screen is closer to the lens than the edges so it sort of looks like a fluffed pillow.
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post #338 of 575 Old 10-10-2019, 02:57 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
It's that horrible digital correction for not having your screen plumb on the wall. No one should ever use pincushion or keystone.
Pincushion is that effect where say the middle of the screen is closer to the lens than the edges so it sort of looks like a fluffed pillow.
Thanks.
How that could happan?
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post #339 of 575 Old 10-10-2019, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by KRP-600M View Post
Thanks.
How that could happan?
It could also happen if you have a curved screen. For most users it should not be necessary.
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post #340 of 575 Old 10-10-2019, 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by KRP-600M View Post
Thanks.

How that could happan?
It your wall framing wasn't true then hanging drywall accentuates the unevenness. Two sheets of drywall butting up against each other right at dead center of the center of you screen ,with tape and spackle making the seam protrude out further from the wall, would exaggerate the unevenness of the wall. That is why a true wall is very important. Especially right where the screen will be hung.

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post #341 of 575 Old 10-10-2019, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KRP-600M View Post
The following remark is mentioned on the firmware update version 3.1:

The "Pin cushion correction" function cannot be used after executing this upgrade.
If you continue to use "Pin cushion correction" function please use "v2.10" firmware.


Can you please explain what Pin cushion is?
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
It's that horrible digital correction for not having your screen plumb on the wall. No one should ever use pincushion or keystone.
Pincushion is that effect where say the middle of the screen is closer to the lens than the edges so it sort of looks like a fluffed pillow.

Pincushion correction is like keystone correction in a projector. A feature that should not be used. But its purpose is for those that have a horizontal expansion lens, a flat screen and a shorter throw. The shorter the throw, the worse the pincushion gets. Pincushion correction was designed to correct the curvature in the image. But like keystone, it comes at a cost. The correct way to correct for pincushion with a horizontal expansion lens is to use a curved screen.

Also you can get pincushion in an image due to a defect in the lens. Many people have posted pictures of their projector image, where the bottom of the image bows up some in the middle.
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post #342 of 575 Old 10-10-2019, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwestley View Post
It could also happen if you have a curved screen. For most users it should not be necessary.
A curved screen without an A-lens gives you barrel distortion. You are correct with a curved screen and an A-lens, unless the curve is perfect, you will end up with either a little bit of pincushion or barrel distortion.
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post #343 of 575 Old 10-10-2019, 08:05 AM
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What if you really need a little bit of keystone adj in your environment? Is keystone still supported with the 3.1 firmware?

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post #344 of 575 Old 10-10-2019, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by bwillcox View Post
What if you really need a little bit of keystone adj in your environment? Is keystone still supported with the 3.1 firmware?
If it was there before, then yes, it will still be there.
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post #345 of 575 Old 10-10-2019, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Drem View Post
I am really amazed what the new frame adapt does to the picture. But from my brief testing yesterday I have a concern. In some scenes, seemed to be always with cloud gradients in the background. The Light level in the scene goes up and down a bit to much, with the frame adaption adjusting. I dont know how to better explain this. I can give some example scenes, however I dont have the exact h and m mark right now..

Thor Ragnarok - when Thor meets grandmaster the first time, sitting tied in the chair. The scene with grand master sitting between the two ladies arguing.

Wonderwoman - on the beach, when she dragged the pilot out of the water and says "youre a man.."

Star Wars Last Jedi - when Luke and Rey are on the cliff talking about the force, and he tickles her with the feather.

Watch these scenes, with HDR level on high, and frame by frame mode. Things get better with HDR level at medium or low, but then I think the picture seems more dull. Changing to scene by scene also makes things better, seeing the frame adaption not constantly adjusting.

Like I said this was initial testing, I will try more tonight to see if I can find a setting without issues.

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I would try switching to scene by scene instead of frame by frame.

This is just a guess, but I would assume some of the DTM algorithm is looking for highlights, which will always have gradients as opposed to just solid patches of one color. A lens flare or a bright light in a dark scene is an extreme gradient, where a bright wall color is far more consistent, so it would ignore a gentle gradient more than it would a more extreme gradient. Once it determines there are highlights in a scene it will apply an appropriate tone map to make those highlights pop more. But what if the background was all gradients, like in this case with a lot of clouds on a bright sky? The tone mapping would be constantly adjusting to keep the peaks from crushing, and the result would be the tone map constantly changing, if this is adjusting frame by frame. I would also guess that scene by scene averages more frames to ease up on the constant changes, and allow for the scenes like this to be more stable.

It's speculation, but it would seem that frame by frame will only work if there aren't any extreme frames like this where you have dark parts of the screen and a heavy gradient bright backdrop, or vice versa, a dark scene with lots of shadows and some very bright lights that are changing (like a torch in a cave scene).

The more people use this, the more it will become clear which mode is best. I switched to scene by scene and didn't notice much of a difference so I left it, figuring that in some cases it might be best. My goal is to have a "set it and forget it" mode, so whatever works best most of the time is what I will end up leaving on..
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post #346 of 575 Old 10-10-2019, 08:52 AM
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I installed it last night. I'm using frame by frame, wide color (BT2020 filter) and medium (high looked a bit washed out on my 130" scope screen). MPC settings off. Iris Auto-1 and apeture -3 (still no noticeable yellowing). High lamp.

Watched clips from Blade Runner, Blade Runner 2049, Avengers: IW, and Avengers:EG. All of the content looked the best it ever has. The Disney titles with no metadata saw the most improvement. No odd fluctuations in the clips I watched.

This firmware is the real deal. I feel like it's going to be a must have feature going forward and the other manufacturers competing at these price points will need to catch up here quickly. Very well done JVC.
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post #347 of 575 Old 10-10-2019, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by jeahrens View Post
I installed it last night. I'm using frame by frame, wide color (BT2020 filter) and medium (high looked a bit washed out on my 130" scope screen). MPC settings off. Iris Auto-1 and apeture -3 (still no noticeable yellowing). High lamp.



Watched clips from Blade Runner, Blade Runner 2049, Avengers: IW, and Avengers:EG. All of the content looked the best it ever has. The Disney titles with no metadata saw the most improvement. No odd fluctuations in the clips I watched.



This firmware is the real deal. I feel like it's going to be a must have feature going forward and the other manufacturers competing at these price points will need to catch up here quickly. Very well done JVC.
Thank you for that feedback especially about the discs that didn't have any metadata to begin with if you don't mind me asking what bluray player are you using and if you are using a Panasonic do you have the optimizer on or off or you just passing the signal through without having the Panasonic do any processing at all

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post #348 of 575 Old 10-10-2019, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by bwillcox View Post
What if you really need a little bit of keystone adj in your environment? Is keystone still supported with the 3.1 firmware?
No, you can not use pin cushion adjustment after the 3.1 update because that memory space is now being used by frame adapt HDR function. However, there is almost never a need to use the pin cushion adjustment as in most cases it can be remedied by proper orientation of the projector or screen.
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post #349 of 575 Old 10-10-2019, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
No, you can not use pin cushion adjustment after the 3.1 update because that memory space is now being used by frame adapt HDR function. However, there is almost never a need to use the pin cushion adjustment as in most cases it can be remedied by proper orientation of the projector or screen.
Well, I wasn't asking about pin cushion adjustment. My question was specifically about keystone adjustment, and Mike already answered it.

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post #350 of 575 Old 10-10-2019, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by skylarlove1999 View Post
Thank you for that feedback especially about the discs that didn't have any metadata to begin with if you don't mind me asking what bluray player are you using and if you are using a Panasonic do you have the optimizer on or off or you just passing the signal through without having the Panasonic do any processing at all

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Panasonic UB820 with the Optimizer OFF. The only thing I have the Panasonic doing picture wise is 1 tick of high frequency sharpness being added.

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post #351 of 575 Old 10-10-2019, 11:57 AM
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Panasonic UB820 with the Optimizer OFF. The only thing I have the Panasonic doing picture wise is 1 tick of high frequency sharpness being added.
Thank you for the quick reply. have you tried feeding any content to the projector with the optimizer on just for comparison purposes?

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post #352 of 575 Old 10-10-2019, 12:44 PM
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In using the Oppo UHD-205 and the new 3.1 FW, what would the Oppo settings need to be to simply allow the RS3000 to take care of everything for DTM?
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post #353 of 575 Old 10-10-2019, 12:49 PM
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In using the Oppo UHD-205 and the new 3.1 FW, what would the Oppo settings need to be to simply allow the RS3000 to take care of everything for DTM?
Source Direct
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post #354 of 575 Old 10-10-2019, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by skylarlove1999 View Post
Thank you for the quick reply. have you tried feeding any content to the projector with the optimizer on just for comparison purposes?

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Briefly. At first I couldn't figure out how to get the optimizer off. Accessing the optimizer while playing Blade Runner would allow me to change settings in the Optimizer but not turn it off. After stopping playback I was able to get the menu up to turn it off. The brief time I was feeding DTM material tonemapped to 500 nits it looked fine, but turning the optimizer off seemed to produce more pronounced highlights and greater depth. But that was just on that one small sequence and not a very thorough evaluation. Still from my memory of recently watching Blade Runner all the clips did seem to exhibit more depth, color pop and brighter highlights with DTM and the optimizer off. I may play with it more this weekend. I'll certainly be keeping my eyes on the various threads to see what others discover.


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post #355 of 575 Old 10-10-2019, 02:23 PM
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Source Direct


I have the Cambridge CXUHD. I just switched from “Auto” to “Source Direct”. I don’t see much difference on a scene I have paused on Captain Marvel. Is there supposed to be a significant difference?


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post #356 of 575 Old 10-10-2019, 02:27 PM
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I have the Cambridge CXUHD. I just switched from “Auto” to “Source Direct”. I don’t see much difference on a scene I have paused on Captain Marvel. Is there supposed to be a significant difference?


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If you weren't doing any sort of tonemapping in the player, then no it wouldn't. Players like the Oppo or Panasonic UB420/820/9000 can provide their own static tonemapping which would impact what this new firmware is doing. So the suggestion on the Oppo to enable source direct would ensure all of this is bypassed. But if your player doesn't have that feature (or it's not enabled) you won't see a significant difference (likely none at all) switching from auto to direct.
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post #357 of 575 Old 10-10-2019, 02:35 PM
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If you weren't doing any sort of tonemapping in the player, then no it wouldn't. Players like the Oppo or Panasonic UB420/820/9000 can provide their own static tonemapping which would impact what this new firmware is doing. So the suggestion on the Oppo to enable source direct would ensure all of this is bypassed. But if your player doesn't have that feature (or it's not enabled) you won't see a significant difference (likely none at all) switching from auto to direct.


Oh ok. I don’t think my player has a tone mapping feature. Do you think I should leave the Output Resolution on Source Direct or Auto in my player? Or does it really not matter?


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post #358 of 575 Old 10-10-2019, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by jeahrens View Post
Briefly. At first I couldn't figure out how to get the optimizer off. Accessing the optimizer while playing Blade Runner would allow me to change settings in the Optimizer but not turn it off. After stopping playback I was able to get the menu up to turn it off. The brief time I was feeding DTM material tonemapped to 500 nits it looked fine, but turning the optimizer off seemed to produce more pronounced highlights and greater depth. But that was just on that one small sequence and not a very thorough evaluation. Still from my memory of recently watching Blade Runner all the clips did seem to exhibit more depth, color pop and brighter highlights with DTM and the optimizer off. I may play with it more this weekend. I'll certainly be keeping my eyes on the various threads to see what others discover.
Thank you for that very detailed explanation of what you witnessed with optimizer on versus optimizer off. I would imagine with all the brightest parts and darkest parts of the film being sent to the projector in its original form the DTM algorithm has more information to optimize the image itself, which should lead to better specular highlights and more shadow detail.

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post #359 of 575 Old 10-10-2019, 02:41 PM
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Oh ok. I don’t think my player has a tone mapping feature. Do you think I should leave the Output Resolution on Source Direct or Auto in my player? Or does it really not matter?


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If the player has a good upscaling chip in it, might want to use it to handle Blu Ray 2K -> 4K scaling. I know the UB820 I have does a better job with scaling than the Sony UHD player I used before it or the NX7 does. Since you aren't tonemapping anything the best advice is to A/B compare things and see what looks best to your eyes. I would guess the Cambridge player has a very nice scaler in it that you'll prefer.
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Originally Posted by rg4471 View Post
In using the Oppo UHD-205 and the new 3.1 FW, what would the Oppo settings need to be to simply allow the RS3000 to take care of everything for DTM?
if unsure where player is at, just do a factory reset on it... really easily done through the oppo menu. you will actually have output set on auto for resolution ... but it will mean there is no tone mapping happening in the player. if you run source direct the jvc will have to do upscaling as well. so depends what you want. myself i rather leave player to the upscaling ....

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