JVC Announces Major HDR Update for 4K D-ILA Projectors - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 137 Old 09-10-2019, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by dkersten View Post
From the article @Spizz linked above:



So if this update gives both the much needed "Anamorphic D" mode as well as frame by frame HDR Tone Mapping, this will check off my remaining boxes and give me an early Christmas gift as well as relieve me of the desire to get a Lumagen or the upcoming Envy.

What an incredible surprise, I just hope it comes out before the end of the year and delivers in full...
There is a nice benefit of having a lumagen or mad vr labs, continually developing and upgrading their feature set, which would translate to any current or future display.
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post #62 of 137 Old 09-10-2019, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
There is a nice benefit of having a lumagen or mad vr labs, continually developing and upgrading their feature set, which would translate to any current or future display.

Correct & the upscaling on Madvr with Blu-Ray's is more than worth keeping it, the Blu-Ray catalog still huge right now.
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post #63 of 137 Old 09-10-2019, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
There is a nice benefit of having a lumagen or mad vr labs, continually developing and upgrading their feature set, which would translate to any current or future display.
I can agree with this, BUT:

MadVR is limited to a PC in the chain, and won't work with video sources the PC can't provide, so it was never an option for me.
Lumagen is expensive and adds complexity to the chain, so while it was on my list to consider, those two negatives held me back.
Envy isn't out, of course, but assuming it can do what the Lumagen can do, the cons are the same for my use case.

Plus you have to ask what new tech an external processor could add to my current rs2000/paladin DCR lens combo that would make it better? Until now that answer has been frame by frame dynamic tone mapping and an anamorphic mode that correctly adjusts 16:9 content with the DCR lens. With JVC delivering those items it is now just some potential new tech that may or may not ever come or make any significant improvement if it does.

To get EVERYTHING I need inside the projector and working with ANY source, all controlled from a simple interface that doesn't require a calibrator or hundreds of hours of reading forums to get the most out of is invaluable. To do it all at no additional cost is utterly priceless.

Sure, I could get "the best" by adding thousands of dollars of processors to my setup, but to be honest, it is so good already that making it even better is just gravy. Plus, after finishing the rest of my basement I am too broke to even buy furniture, let alone an expensive new toy for the theater that won't add any immediate benefits, lol.

Edit to add: My wish list now only includes an anamorphic mode for the slew of (mostly Netflix) content coming out that is 2:1 aspect ratio. I set my projector up to be at the minimum throw for the Paladin DCR lens and I don't have any zoom left to make the 2:1 ratio work with my screen height. Surely a Lumagen Pro could do an anamorphic mode like this, but really is the cost worth this one small feature?
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post #64 of 137 Old 09-10-2019, 12:37 PM
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I hear ya... great points... I hope it works out like you imagine.

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Originally Posted by dkersten View Post
I can agree with this, BUT:

MadVR is limited to a PC in the chain, and won't work with video sources the PC can't provide, so it was never an option for me.
Lumagen is expensive and adds complexity to the chain, so while it was on my list to consider, those two negatives held me back.
Envy isn't out, of course, but assuming it can do what the Lumagen can do, the cons are the same for my use case.

Plus you have to ask what new tech an external processor could add to my current rs2000/paladin DCR lens combo that would make it better? Until now that answer has been frame by frame dynamic tone mapping and an anamorphic mode that correctly adjusts 16:9 content with the DCR lens. With JVC delivering those items it is now just some potential new tech that may or may not ever come or make any significant improvement if it does.

To get EVERYTHING I need inside the projector and working with ANY source, all controlled from a simple interface that doesn't require a calibrator or hundreds of hours of reading forums to get the most out of is invaluable. To do it all at no additional cost is utterly priceless.

Sure, I could get "the best" by adding thousands of dollars of processors to my setup, but to be honest, it is so good already that making it even better is just gravy. Plus, after finishing the rest of my basement I am too broke to even buy furniture, let alone an expensive new toy for the theater that won't add any immediate benefits, lol.

Edit to add: My wish list now only includes an anamorphic mode for the slew of (mostly Netflix) content coming out that is 2:1 aspect ratio. I set my projector up to be at the minimum throw for the Paladin DCR lens and I don't have any zoom left to make the 2:1 ratio work with my screen height. Surely a Lumagen Pro could do an anamorphic mode like this, but really is the cost worth this one small feature?
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post #65 of 137 Old 09-10-2019, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by dkersten View Post
To get EVERYTHING I need inside the projector and working with ANY source, all controlled from a simple interface that doesn't require a calibrator or hundreds of hours of reading forums to get the most out of is invaluable...

Could you elaborate?

Surely some kind of calibration is needed, or do you mean it's within your capabilities to do it yourself?



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Originally Posted by dkersten View Post
Surely a Lumagen Pro could do an anamorphic mode like this, but really is the cost worth this one small feature?

Perhaps there's an older/less fully featured model you could get used that would do that.

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post #66 of 137 Old 09-10-2019, 01:22 PM
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Could you elaborate?

Surely some kind of calibration is needed, or do you mean it's within your capabilities to do it yourself?
I mean it's within my capabilities to set up a JVC projector myself. Sure, I could hire a calibrator to squeeze the last bit of performance out of the projector, but aside from the fact that it is expensive to fly a decent expert in for a day of calibration, I am already happy with the out of the box performance after a few tweaks here and there. And features like a new anamorphic setting or dynamic tone mapping are more of a switch than a calibration, with usually maybe a single slider to adjust to calibrate it to your liking. I am more than capable of doing that. Setting up a Lumagen to improve on what JVC already can do while adding functionality it won't be able to do even after the November firmware update, AND keeping it seamlessly easy to operate is probably going to require an expert to get it set up correctly, at least that would be true of the Lumagen, particularly where creating a new anamorphic mode is concerned.

Quote:
Perhaps there's an older/less fully featured model you could get used that would do that.
Not to my knowledge, the Lumagen Radiance is not 4k capable and the Radiance Pro, although it comes in different flavors, is just too expensive no matter the model, at least for a single low level wish list item.

I may someday get into an Envy or Lumagen just because I am one of those fools who sometimes has more money than sense, but with this new firmware there is no longer a burning need, it is more of a luxury that would probably leave me wondering why I spent the money. This is why this JVC news is so good for me. Perhaps now I will be able to afford furniture in my basement, lol.
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post #67 of 137 Old 09-10-2019, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkersten View Post
I mean it's within my capabilities to set up a JVC projector myself. Sure, I could hire a calibrator to squeeze the last bit of performance out of the projector, but aside from the fact that it is expensive to fly a decent expert in for a day of calibration, I am already happy with the out of the box performance after a few tweaks here and there. And features like a new anamorphic setting or dynamic tone mapping are more of a switch than a calibration, with usually maybe a single slider to adjust to calibrate it to your liking. I am more than capable of doing that. Setting up a Lumagen to improve on what JVC already can do while adding functionality it won't be able to do even after the November firmware update, AND keeping it seamlessly easy to operate is probably going to require an expert to get it set up correctly, at least that would be true of the Lumagen, particularly where creating a new anamorphic mode is concerned.


Not to my knowledge, the Lumagen Radiance is not 4k capable and the Radiance Pro, although it comes in different flavors, is just too expensive no matter the model, at least for a single low level wish list item.

I may someday get into an Envy or Lumagen just because I am one of those fools who sometimes has more money than sense, but with this new firmware there is no longer a burning need, it is more of a luxury that would probably leave me wondering why I spent the money. This is why this JVC news is so good for me. Perhaps now I will be able to afford furniture in my basement, lol.
You can always autocal yourself.
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post #68 of 137 Old 09-10-2019, 02:13 PM
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You can always autocal yourself.
Not to pull this thread off topic, but yes, IF I had a meter that was guaranteed to be accurate enough to make it better and not worse. That's the rub, I don't want to buy a $1500 meter for a single calibration and the $150 meter has been known to be off by over 10% in some cases.
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post #69 of 137 Old 09-10-2019, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by dkersten View Post
Not to pull this thread off topic, but yes, IF I had a meter that was guaranteed to be accurate enough to make it better and not worse. That's the rub, I don't want to buy a $1500 meter for a single calibration and the $150 meter has been known to be off by over 10% in some cases.
Just in case you are interested, you can buy the EFI ES-2000 meter which is the same thing as the i1 Pro 2 meter and supposedly is recognized as the i1 Pro 2 by JVC Autocal, for $800.00 from NewEgg Software online.

Also if you are serious about keeping your projector on spec, you should calibrate after every 200 hours or so. So you could theoretically use the meter over and over saving money in the long run. You can also use the meter with open source calibration software and calibrate other displays within the home accurately.
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post #70 of 137 Old 09-10-2019, 04:47 PM
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Glad to see SpyderX support. However, the JVC press release doesn't specify which SpyderX model is required. The Amazon listing says the Elite is required to calibrate projectors.

https://www.amazon.com/Datacolor-Spy.../dp/B0076A620Y

Is that true? Can't seem to understand why.
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post #71 of 137 Old 09-10-2019, 04:52 PM
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Like the 4 and 5 before it, it *should* be just the Pro is needed. The meter should be the same and the only difference being the Datacolor software being capable of projector calibration (and additional features). I haven't pulled the trigger yet though
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post #72 of 137 Old 09-10-2019, 05:37 PM
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Glad to see SpyderX support. However, the JVC press release doesn't specify which SpyderX model is required. The Amazon listing says the Elite is required to calibrate projectors.

https://www.amazon.com/Datacolor-Spy.../dp/B0076A620Y

Is that true? Can't seem to understand why.
Little known secret...all three versions (Spyder X only has two) of the hardware were/are exactly the same. Only their software was different to enable the extra features. So on the Spyder 5 you only needed the Express model which was the cheapest one.
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post #73 of 137 Old 09-10-2019, 07:02 PM
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Little known secret...all three versions (Spyder X only has two) of the hardware were/are exactly the same. Only their software was different to enable the extra features. So on the Spyder 5 you only needed the Express model which was the cheapest one.
Will new firmware's expanding number of bits from 12bits to 18bits for gamma control make it even easier to get nice linear results with autocal? And since new DTM is for both color and brightness, will the 18 bits carry over into color as well?

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post #74 of 137 Old 09-10-2019, 07:04 PM
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Will new firmware's expanding number of bits from 12bits to 18bits for gamma control make it even easier to get nice linear results with autocal?

And since new DTM is for both color and brightness, will the 18 bits carry over into color as well?


Edit: sorry for double post

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post #75 of 137 Old 09-10-2019, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by David Mathews View Post
Will new firmware's expanding number of bits from 12bits to 18bits for gamma control make it even easier to get nice linear results with autocal? And since new DTM is for both color and brightness, will the 18 bits carry over into color as well?
If we are talking about the Spyder X, I doubt they will improve enough to do anything more than Gamma calibration with Auto Cal. But I hope to be proven wrong.
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post #76 of 137 Old 09-11-2019, 05:45 AM
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You can consume whatever content you want, never said you couldn't. I was just saying that the firmware is really only relevant to Owners of the actual hardware. Just a firmware update doesn't really help non-owners.

So the information should be placed in the first post of the Owner's Thread where it is easy to find along with all the other projector information. That way owners and non-owners can go to one place and get all the latest information on the new projectors.

Not trying to irritate you. Just stating that I agree with Mike and I hope Nigel will add the firmware info to the first post of the Owner's Thread.
Owners of JVC (and other JVC/brands) projectors might never visit a thread dedicated to certain JVC models, but they might find this. And it might be of interest to them when planning a new projector purchase.
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post #77 of 137 Old 09-11-2019, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by pdoherty972 View Post
Owners of JVC (and other JVC/brands) projectors might never visit a thread dedicated to certain JVC models, but they might find this. And it might be of interest to them when planning a new projector purchase.
I think you have it backwards. Owners usually go searching for owners threads. Potential owners also. That is what most people do, when shopping for a particular item. They search out to find owners to see what they have to say about the product. In other words, they are wanting to read reviews about the product and find out what is good and bad about the product.
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post #78 of 137 Old 09-11-2019, 06:18 AM
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I think you have it backwards. Owners usually go searching for owners threads. Potential owners also. That is what most people do, when shopping for a particular item. They search out to find owners to see what they have to say about the product. In other words, they are wanting to read reviews about the product and find out what is good and bad about the product.
I agree. I think this separate thread is for people like me who want to own a JVC true 4K projector but can't afford one right now but would like to hear about the firmware update without digging through the owners thread and hearing how amazing it is to own one of these JVC projectors. I get it . Someday. When they finally put a laser source in a sub $10k projector of the quality of the NX7 I made a promise to myself that I would break the bank.

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post #79 of 137 Old 09-11-2019, 01:56 PM
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I agree. I think this separate thread is for people like me who want to own a JVC true 4K projector but can't afford one right now but would like to hear about the firmware update without digging through the owners thread and hearing how amazing it is to own one of these JVC projectors. I get it . Someday. When they finally put a laser source in a sub $10k projector of the quality of the NX7 I made a promise to myself that I would break the bank.

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While your 6050 is awesome, I think you should reach out to a good dealer before claiming you can't afford a 4K JVC. While Epson advertises great pricing, you generally don't find much wiggle room. The dealer I worked with on my NX7 just sent out pricing for those interested in upgrading to the NX7 before the increase and a new NX5 is priced extremely close to what the 6050 goes for. While it doesn't have the laser functionality you're wishing for, it wouldn't "break the bank". Granted you're happy with what you have and can certainly wait, but it's not as crazy as people think it is to get something like this.
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post #80 of 137 Old 09-11-2019, 02:06 PM
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While your 6050 is awesome, I think you should reach out to a good dealer before claiming you can't afford a 4K JVC. While Epson advertises great pricing, you generally don't find much wiggle room. The dealer I worked with on my NX7 just sent out pricing for those interested in upgrading to the NX7 before the increase and a new NX5 is priced extremely close to what the 6050 goes for. While it doesn't have the laser functionality you're wishing for, it wouldn't "break the bank". Granted you're happy with what you have and can certainly wait, but it's not as crazy as people think it is to get something like this.
I appreciate the advice and the understanding. I'm not really interested in the nx5 I don't think it's that much of a improvement over my 6050.

Yes the nx7 certainly would be and I know it can be found for considerably less than the manufacturer's suggested retail price. But it's still would be a significant amount more than my 6050.

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post #81 of 137 Old 09-11-2019, 02:39 PM
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I appreciate the advice and the understanding. I'm not really interested in the nx5 I don't think it's that much of a improvement over my 6050.

Yes the nx7 certainly would be and I know it can be found for considerably less than the manufacturer's suggested retail price. But it's still would be a significant amount more than my 6050.

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I knew when I posted that you were very happy with what you have and aren't likely to upgrade (what you have is a very fine unit). It was more to dispel this notion that getting into a JVC is a big financial prospect vs something like your Epson.

The NX5 does bring pluses and minuses. You'd lose some light output. You'd lose the ability to use the color filter (not sure if your screen is small enough to use it). You'd gain about 3 times the native contrast. You'd have a boost in resolution and sharpness. You'd see improved motion handling. You'd have dynamic tonemapping in a couple months.

But you pretty much know that. And keeping what you have, which is quite good, until you're ready to upgrade is a smart play. There's always something new coming

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post #82 of 137 Old 09-11-2019, 02:42 PM
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I knew when I posted that you were very happy with what you have and aren't likely to upgrade (what you have is a very fine unit). It was more to dispel this notion that getting into a JVC is a big financial prospect vs something like your Epson.



The NX5 does bring pluses and minuses. You'd lose some light output. You'd lose the ability to use the color filter (not sure if your screen is small enough to use it). You'd gain about 3 times the native contrast. You'd have a boost in resolution and sharpness. You'd see improved motion handling. You'd have dynamic tonemapping in a couple months.



But you pretty much know that. And keeping what you have, which is quite good, until you're ready to upgrade is a smart play. There's always something new coming
I appreciate you taking the time to make sure others are aware that JVC is attainable within a certain price range. Everything you said is absolutely correct. I am very satisfied with the image I get for my 6050 on my 120 in screen at this point. I probably won't be getting another projector until a laser projector comes along with the performance of the nx7 whatever that happens to be. Although I say that knowing full well that if this Dynamic tone mapping works as well as it should it is really a game changer & might change my mind LOL

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post #83 of 137 Old 09-11-2019, 06:20 PM
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post #84 of 137 Old 09-12-2019, 12:06 PM
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The madVR Envy pricing makes the JVCs with built-in dynamic tone mapping even more compelling. Sure, the Envy will be more capable, but for the price?

https://www.cediaexpo.com/exhibitor-...s-llcmadvrenvy
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post #85 of 137 Old 09-12-2019, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by dkersten View Post
I can agree with this, BUT:

Sure, I could get "the best" by adding thousands of dollars of processors to my setup, but to be honest, it is so good already that making it even better is just gravy.
Good point, several of us use the exact same logic to just use zoom for scope content and not spend thousands on an external lens. Sure, I can use the extra brightness but zooming is MORE than good enough
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post #86 of 137 Old 09-12-2019, 12:18 PM
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The madVR Envy pricing makes the JVCs with built-in dynamic tone mapping even more compelling. Sure, the Envy will be more capable, but for the price?

https://www.cediaexpo.com/exhibitor-...s-llcmadvrenvy
Yeah, I was expecting a price tag over $3k and as high as $6k for a full featured unit, but $5k for the basic and $10k for the full unit, ouch. I will be plenty happy with frame by frame tone mapping in the JVC, lol.
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post #87 of 137 Old 09-12-2019, 12:20 PM
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The madVR Envy pricing makes the JVCs with built-in dynamic tone mapping even more compelling. Sure, the Envy will be more capable, but for the price?

https://www.cediaexpo.com/exhibitor-...s-llcmadvrenvy
I agree, the cheapest Envy is 5k and almost the same for the Radiance Pro. If the built-in DTM of the JVC is close enough to those big boys, the value of next gen JVC projectors will be incredible

But it will be for a short time because DTM is so good I would not be surprise if use in a future Panasonic blu ray players and others projectors brand.
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post #88 of 137 Old 09-12-2019, 12:31 PM
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The base Envy isn't $5k, it's $5,499. Yup, the JVC dynamic tonemapping will have to do for me.
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post #89 of 137 Old 09-12-2019, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by gravi View Post
Good point, several of us use the exact same logic to just use zoom for scope content and not spend thousands on an external lens. Sure, I can use the extra brightness but zooming is MORE than good enough
Most certainly. And with good tone mapping, brightness becomes an even smaller consideration.

It is all relative of course. We all draw our lines at different places.

To me there is a MUCH bigger gap between zoomed scope with HDR on a 150" wide screen where you end up with 10-15 fL and a lens that reclaims 38% of the lost brightness resulting in upwards of 25 fL than there is between that dynamically tone mapped anamorphic image that already looks fantastic and one run through a $5-10k processor that can do it ever so slightly better. The added light from the lens (and the upscaled image with more pixels) was a huge improvement for my setup.

I look forward to comparisons of the JVC 4k projectors with DTM built in vs DTM with the Lumagen and/or Envy... Sounds like we could have a face off as early as the end of this year... We just need someone to buy it all and do comparisons...
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post #90 of 137 Old 09-12-2019, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post
But it will be for a short time because DTM is so good I would not be surprise if use in a future Panasonic blu ray players and others projectors brand.
One can hope, but having it done by the projector means all sources can benefit. Now, if Panny provided an HDMI input to a DTM player...
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