JVC Announces Major HDR Update for 4K D-ILA Projectors - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 461 Old 09-12-2019, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Siener View Post
One can hope, but having it done by the projector means all sources can benefit. Now, if Panny provided an HDMI input to a DTM player...
Yes hell yes to an input or two on the next Generation Panasonic player with DTM!!!

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post #92 of 461 Old 09-13-2019, 05:13 AM
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If we are talking about the Spyder X, I doubt they will improve enough to do anything more than Gamma calibration with Auto Cal. But I hope to be proven wrong.
Yes, understand spyder's color accuracy limitations it make best for gamma only, (ie use spectro to tweak color)


Sorry should have been more clear on question. Background: My understanding is gamma autocal cal tweaks gamma curves of both white and colors. White balance and ultimate colors still off, but get good linear gamma response. If i understand jvc's claims of 18bit, the individual colors gamma curves will also be smoother and more linear, not just white. This seems like it would make color decoding more linear. Toching up white balance with better meter brings it home.

So where I'm going with this is after full calibration (jvc autocal and touch up with another meter/software) does the new 18 bit make a 3D lut less needed?

At 12bit, resullts already already pretty darn good. But still run eecolor 3d lut on 1080p sources to clean up dark skin tones. Marginal, but visable improvment, enough that i itch for a 4k capable 3d lut. This firmware update "might" scratch the itch a little if i understand properly.

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post #93 of 461 Old 09-13-2019, 09:56 PM
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post #94 of 461 Old 09-13-2019, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post
I agree, the cheapest Envy is 5k and almost the same for the Radiance Pro. If the built-in DTM of the JVC is close enough to those big boys, the value of next gen JVC projectors will be incredible

But it will be for a short time because DTM is so good I would not be surprise if use in a future Panasonic blu ray players and others projectors brand.
I don't think this is going to happen, unless a UHD player like the UB9000 doubles in price, adding a large FPGA.
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post #95 of 461 Old 09-13-2019, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Siener View Post
One can hope, but having it done by the projector means all sources can benefit. Now, if Panny provided an HDMI input to a DTM player...
I think you are wishing for something that will never happen.
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post #96 of 461 Old 09-14-2019, 02:15 PM
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This is a recent Cedia post from Mike Garrett from the AVS Forum for NX5/7/9-RS1000/2000/3000 Owners:

Since it is Saturday and fewer people at the show, JVC did a private demo for Craig and me. We were able to watch different clips. We watched them three ways. Tone mapping off, auto tone mapping and dynamic tone mapping. We also paused certain scenes and viewed each of them the same way. There was quite a bit of difference. We paused and viewed one scene from the Meg, where the shark cage is lowered down into the water. With no tone mapping there is a large bright spot that is blown out and halos of discoloration around the cage. With auto tone mapping, the bright spot that was blown out was reduced and the halo and discoloration around the shark cage was smaller. With dynamic tone mapping almost all of the blown out bright spot was gone and same for the halo around the shark tank. Pictures would not show up on my iPhone, but Craig had a better camera with him and I think he was able to capture the differences. We took the pictures with the menu up, so that you could clearly see what tone mapping was used for each picture. We also watched clips from other movies. In all cases the dynamic tone mapping was superior. When we watched the demo the first time, we were surprised at how much flatter the image looked when using auto tone mapping vs dynamic tone mapping, but after doing the still shots, I can confirm that what people saw was not due to different settings. The dynamic tone mapping is a very definite improvement. Nice job JVC.

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post #97 of 461 Old 09-14-2019, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docrog View Post
This is a recent CES post from Mike Garrett from the AVS Forum for NX5/7/9-RS1000/2000/3000 Owners:



Since it is Saturday and fewer people at the show, JVC did a private demo for Craig and me. We were able to watch different clips. We watched them three ways. Tone mapping off, auto tone mapping and dynamic tone mapping. We also paused certain scenes and viewed each of them the same way. There was quite a bit of difference. We paused and viewed one scene from the Meg, where the shark cage is lowered down into the water. With no tone mapping there is a large bright spot that is blown out and halos of discoloration around the cage. With auto tone mapping, the bright spot that was blown out was reduced and the halo and discoloration around the shark cage was smaller. With dynamic tone mapping almost all of the blown out bright spot was gone and same for the halo around the shark tank. Pictures would not show up on my iPhone, but Craig had a better camera with him and I think he was able to capture the differences. We took the pictures with the menu up, so that you could clearly see what tone mapping was used for each picture. We also watched clips from other movies. In all cases the dynamic tone mapping was superior. When we watched the demo the first time, we were surprised at how much flatter the image looked when using auto tone mapping vs dynamic tone mapping, but after doing the still shots, I can confirm that what people saw was not due to different settings. The dynamic tone mapping is a very definite improvement. Nice job JVC.


You mean Cedia . I’ll post photos tomorrow or Monday after I get home.


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post #98 of 461 Old 09-14-2019, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docrog View Post
This is a recent CES post from Mike Garrett from the AVS Forum for NX5/7/9-RS1000/2000/3000 Owners:

Since it is Saturday and fewer people at the show, JVC did a private demo for Craig and me. We were able to watch different clips. We watched them three ways. Tone mapping off, auto tone mapping and dynamic tone mapping. We also paused certain scenes and viewed each of them the same way. There was quite a bit of difference. We paused and viewed one scene from the Meg, where the shark cage is lowered down into the water. With no tone mapping there is a large bright spot that is blown out and halos of discoloration around the cage. With auto tone mapping, the bright spot that was blown out was reduced and the halo and discoloration around the shark cage was smaller. With dynamic tone mapping almost all of the blown out bright spot was gone and same for the halo around the shark tank. Pictures would not show up on my iPhone, but Craig had a better camera with him and I think he was able to capture the differences. We took the pictures with the menu up, so that you could clearly see what tone mapping was used for each picture. We also watched clips from other movies. In all cases the dynamic tone mapping was superior. When we watched the demo the first time, we were surprised at how much flatter the image looked when using auto tone mapping vs dynamic tone mapping, but after doing the still shots, I can confirm that what people saw was not due to different settings. The dynamic tone mapping is a very definite improvement. Nice job JVC.
Just another in many ways I am glad I went the JVC route. I am sure Sony will be working even harder on this however JVC will be months ahead and can keep making it better.

On a side note was just watching some of Lucy with MadVR. It really pisses me off because now I may need to come up with 5-10K soon. Dang just unbelievable compared to the Panny etc. It will be fun comparing it to the new JVC firmware.
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post #99 of 461 Old 09-15-2019, 09:03 AM
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I'm certainly looking forward to the release of the FW and the reviews of the update from owners and professionals alike. Hopefully some members will have some form of "shoot out" comparing the current offerings to see how the implementation fairs compared to the other options out there.

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post #100 of 461 Old 09-16-2019, 05:48 PM
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You mean Cedia . I’ll post photos tomorrow or Monday after I get home.


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Looking forward to seeing the photos Craig.

From the 7min mark-

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post #101 of 461 Old 09-16-2019, 05:49 PM
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Looking forward to seeing the photos Craig.



From the 7min mark-



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE8f...ature=youtu.be


I have some up “ on another network “.


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post #102 of 461 Old 09-16-2019, 05:55 PM
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I have some up “ on another network “.


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Ah. Checking them out now.
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post #103 of 461 Old 09-16-2019, 06:00 PM
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Very nice indeed. The difference with the shark cage and the sun is quite noticeable. Thanks Craig.
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post #104 of 461 Old 09-17-2019, 01:39 AM
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Would love to see a comparison between the Lumagen/Envy and the Frame Adapt HDR
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post #105 of 461 Old 09-17-2019, 02:16 AM
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In my opinion, the functioning for HDR will be very similar but not the same. Lumagen/Envy they offer much more however, the comparison will be very interesting.
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post #106 of 461 Old 09-17-2019, 06:55 AM
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In my opinion, the functioning for HDR will be very similar but not the same. Lumagen/Envy they offer much more however, the comparison will be very interesting.
Will be shocked if the Frame Adapt comes that close to the Lumagen or Envy. There is not enough horse power in the projector. Don't get me wrong, I saw it at Cedia and it is a nice addition and most people will say it is great and good enough to not spend 5K to improve the picture. I could tell on Dragons 2 that they were showing the difference from when I play it a home.

But I am running a 2070 card at 96% on HDR movies with MadVR and yes the picture is amazing. You don't have that horsepower in a projector now.

My plan right now is to use it for streaming and MadVR for any discs.

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post #107 of 461 Old 09-17-2019, 07:06 AM
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Lumagen/Envy they offer much more than Frame Adapt HDR, they have more horsepower. But what i mean by my post i would like to see a comparison. And I think this will interest more people here on the forum.

Personally, I am a big fan of MadVR for they innovation and for trying to succeed in this world.
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post #108 of 461 Old 09-17-2019, 08:04 AM
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I am VERY curious to see a good comparison when this FW hits. It will be interesting to see how close (or not) JVCs implementation gets to the big boys. If it can get at least 70% of the way there with no side effects, that will be good enough for the vast majority including myself.
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post #109 of 461 Old 09-17-2019, 10:35 AM
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I am VERY curious to see a good comparison when this FW hits. It will be interesting to see how close (or not) JVCs implementation gets to the big boys. If it can get at least 70% of the way there with no side effects, that will be good enough for the vast majority including myself.
I agree. While there will always be a following for the ultra-high end processing that is provided by MadVR and Lumagen, this should be a real boon for most JVC owners. You have to admit that after spending money on theater treatments, high end projection screen, high quality audio components, speakers, subwoofers and expensive projectors, it is kind of nice to get 90 percent of the way to nirvana with a free firmware update as opposed to spending another $5K - $10K on video processors.
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post #110 of 461 Old 09-17-2019, 10:42 AM
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I agree. While there will always be a following for the ultra-high end processing that is provided by MadVR and Lumagen, this should be a real boon for most JVC owners. You have to admit that after spending money on theater treatments, high end projection screen, high quality audio components, speakers, subwoofers and expensive projectors, it is kind of nice to get 90 percent of the way to nirvana with a free firmware update as opposed to spending another $5K - $10K on video processors.
Exactly and well said!
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post #111 of 461 Old 09-17-2019, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post
I am VERY curious to see a good comparison when this FW hits. It will be interesting to see how close (or not) JVCs implementation gets to the big boys. If it can get at least 70% of the way there with no side effects, that will be good enough for the vast majority including myself.
That is along the lines of what I told JVC at CEDIA, when trying to get them to connect up the Envy to the RS3000 for a comparison. JVC did not have to win. All they had to do is look respectful in the comparison, since theirs was free with the projector. But I could not get them to do it. I can understand why. Once you have a system working for demo, you general do not want to mess with it and take a chance of messing something up. Does not make for a good look.
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post #112 of 461 Old 09-17-2019, 11:22 AM
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That is along the lines of what I told JVC at CEDIA, when trying to get them to connect up the Envy to the RS3000 for a comparison. JVC did not have to win. All they had to do is look respectful in the comparison, since theirs was free with the projector. But I could not get them to do it. I can understand why. Once you have a system working for demo, you general do not want to mess with it and take a chance of messing something up. Does not make for a good look.
What they should have done which is more in line to reality is hook up a 9000 panni and did a comparison between that and the new DTM.

If it blows that away then people will be real happy. Again the Envy and Lumagen do a lot more things and PQ items than the DTM does.

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post #113 of 461 Old 09-17-2019, 11:27 AM
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That is along the lines of what I told JVC at CEDIA, when trying to get them to connect up the Envy to the RS3000 for a comparison. JVC did not have to win. All they had to do is look respectful in the comparison, since theirs was free with the projector. But I could not get them to do it. I can understand why. Once you have a system working for demo, you general do not want to mess with it and take a chance of messing something up. Does not make for a good look.
I can certainly understand them not wanting to do it for the reason you mentioned! I just had this happen recently after making a few very small system changes. When I was done making the changes, I no longer had audio from my Panasonic 820 for some odd reason. Got it all working eventually, but I still dont know why it happened or even what I did exactly to fix it.
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post #114 of 461 Old 09-17-2019, 11:27 AM
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What they should have done which is more in line to reality is hook up a 9000 panni and did a comparison between that and the new DTM.

If it blows that away then people will be real happy. Again the Envy and Lumagen do a lot more things and PQ items than the DTM does.
Looking at the pictures that Craig posted it is close to the same thing. I don't know if they used the 9000 Panasonic but they did have a blu-ray source playing The MEG and showed comparisons switching between auto-tone mapping and frame by frame tone mapping. There was a huge difference in that HDR auto tone mapping blew out the highlights and detail while the advanced frame tone mapping preserved the detail and color. I thought it looked pretty convincing from the screen shots that Craig posted.
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post #115 of 461 Old 09-17-2019, 11:54 AM
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Looking at the pictures that Craig posted it is close to the same thing. I don't know if they used the 9000 Panasonic but they did have a blu-ray source playing The MEG and showed comparisons switching between auto-tone mapping and frame by frame tone mapping. There was a huge difference in that HDR auto tone mapping blew out the highlights and detail while the advanced frame tone mapping preserved the detail and color. I thought it looked pretty convincing from the screen shots that Craig posted.
If you watch the video and I can confirm from what I saw, you will see they used the HDR10 settings not the Panni settings that JVC has so it was not a comparison to that.

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post #116 of 461 Old 09-17-2019, 12:38 PM
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If you watch the video and I can confirm from what I saw, you will see they used the HDR10 settings not the Panni settings that JVC has so it was not a comparison to that.
I understand what you are saying but honestly even though I have used the Panni settings with my RS3000, I prefer to double tone map. I set the Panni to tone map down to 350 nits and then turn on tone mapping on the RS3000. It seems to be better than just using the Panni gamma setting. Kris Deering advocates the same settings.

So if advanced frame tone mapping is doing a more accurate job than standard fixed HDR auto tone mapping then that is all I am really concerned with.
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post #117 of 461 Old 09-17-2019, 12:46 PM
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Looking at the pictures that Craig posted it is close to the same thing. I don't know if they used the 9000 Panasonic but they did have a blu-ray source playing The MEG and showed comparisons switching between auto-tone mapping and frame by frame tone mapping. There was a huge difference in that HDR auto tone mapping blew out the highlights and detail while the advanced frame tone mapping preserved the detail and color. I thought it looked pretty convincing from the screen shots that Craig posted.
An Oppo 203 was used for the demo. Oppo will send source direct.
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post #118 of 461 Old 09-18-2019, 03:49 AM
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Still no link to Craigs photos? Are they a secret or did I miss something?
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post #119 of 461 Old 09-18-2019, 04:58 AM
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Just another in many ways I am glad I went the JVC route. I am sure Sony will be working even harder on this however JVC will be months ahead and can keep making it better.

On a side note was just watching some of Lucy with MadVR. It really pisses me off because now I may need to come up with 5-10K soon. Dang just unbelievable compared to the Panny etc. It will be fun comparing it to the new JVC firmware.
You have madVR working, it will continue working. Why do you need envy in that case?

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Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
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post #120 of 461 Old 09-18-2019, 05:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drem View Post
Still no link to Craigs photos? Are they a secret or did I miss something?
PM sent.
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