JVC Announces Major HDR Update for 4K D-ILA Projectors - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 1014 Old 09-25-2019, 11:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by BondDonBond View Post
You can get a $299 Sony player with source direct sony ubp-x800m2 and not need a $1000 player if that is the case. Not much happening to the video or need the bells or whistles if you are sending as it to the projector.
I do like the idea of the Panasonic 9000 being able to set the target nits at 350 and then passing the HDR signal to the JVC projector for it to do the dynamic tone mapping for scene by scene HDR optimization, with the coming firmware update.


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post #182 of 1014 Old 09-25-2019, 11:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by rwestley View Post
I would have though the same thing. I did try to search for more information about this. The Panasonic and the DTM firmware works in totally different way. The new firmware works frame by frame and even works if no metadata is available. That is the reason why source direct might be the best way to go. We will know more when the firmware is released.
Agreed we really don't know if source direct from the UHD player will work best with the DTM or if there will still be a benefit of the Panasonic UHD player in the video chain still and doing the static tone mapping down to 500 nits for the 820 and 350 nits for the 9000 and passing that signal to the projector. Some fun times ahead either way.

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post #183 of 1014 Old 09-25-2019, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by skylarlove1999 View Post
I have heard some beta users of the firmware update still like being able to use the HDR OPTIMIZER to tone map discs with metadata to the display to initially decrease target nits and then the DTM of the projector takes over from there for brightness variations that occur from scene to scene.
This is interesting, and I'm not denying that it might somehow deliver superior results, but I'm trying to think through what would happen. The Panasonic players use a static tone-map based on the disc metadata (when available) to lower the target nits. Then you'd hand that over to the JVC's dynamic tone mapping to take over below that target.

In theory, wouldn't it be better to let the DTM analyze the entire video signal to make its tone-mapping decisions, rather than only analyze something that's already been reduced to 500 nits (or 350, with the 9000 model)? That Panasonic tone-map is dependent on the disc having good metadata, and even in a best case scenario is never scene-by-scene specific the way DTM would be.

I suppose the fear is that, dynamic or not, JVC's tone-mapping quality might still be inferior to Panasonic's.
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post #184 of 1014 Old 09-25-2019, 11:52 AM
 
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This is interesting, and I'm not denying that it might somehow deliver superior results, but I'm trying to think through what would happen. The Panasonic players use a static tone-map based on the disc metadata (when available) to lower the target nits. Then you'd hand that over to the JVC's dynamic tone mapping to take over below that target.



In theory, wouldn't it be better to let the DTM analyze the entire video signal to make its tone-mapping decisions, rather than only analyze something that's already been reduced to 500 nits (or 350, with the 9000 model)? That Panasonic tone-map is dependent on the disc having good metadata, and even in a best case scenario is never scene-by-scene specific the way DTM would be.



I suppose the fear is that, dynamic or not, JVC's tone-mapping quality might still be inferior to Panasonic's.
I agree I don't know which would be better. Hopefully we will get some definite answers after the firmware update has been in the hands of some trusted reviewers.

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post #185 of 1014 Old 09-25-2019, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
This is interesting, and I'm not denying that it might somehow deliver superior results, but I'm trying to think through what would happen. The Panasonic players use a static tone-map based on the disc metadata (when available) to lower the target nits. Then you'd hand that over to the JVC's dynamic tone mapping to take over below that target.

In theory, wouldn't it be better to let the DTM analyze the entire video signal to make its tone-mapping decisions, rather than only analyze something that's already been reduced to 500 nits (or 350, with the 9000 model)? That Panasonic tone-map is dependent on the disc having good metadata, and even in a best case scenario is never scene-by-scene specific the way DTM would be.

I suppose the fear is that, dynamic or not, JVC's tone-mapping quality might still be inferior to Panasonic's.
I think you are going to be surprised that the JVC frame by frame tone mapping will "blow the Panasonic out of the water." I read on the German Forum that JVC has probably been working on this firmware for a long time. It was probably not ready for prime time when the new projectors were released last year. It seems that there was enough processing power build in to do this. See article below:

https://www.heimkino.de/news/jvc-n5-...apt-hdr-update
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post #186 of 1014 Old 09-25-2019, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by rwestley View Post
I think you are going to be surprised that the JVC frame by frame tone mapping will "blow the Panasonic out of the water." I read on the German Forum that JVC has probably been working on this firmware for a long time. It was probably not ready for prime time when the new projectors were released last year. It seems that there was enough processing power build in to do this. See article below:

https://www.heimkino.de/news/jvc-n5-...apt-hdr-update
Great article! Nice to see a little bit more about it.

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post #187 of 1014 Old 09-25-2019, 01:06 PM
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So does the 420 have the same performance as the 820 minus the analog outputs?
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post #188 of 1014 Old 09-25-2019, 04:59 PM
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So does the 420 have the same performance as the 820 minus the analog outputs?
No. The 420 does not do any kind of tone mapping. It is not available in the US.
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post #189 of 1014 Old 09-25-2019, 05:02 PM
 
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No. The 420 does not do any kind of tone mapping. It is not available in the US.
The 420 does have the same exact tone mapping as the 820 and is now available in the US as of this past weekend. 820 supports Dolby Vision. The 420 does not.


https://www.bestofhighend.com/panaso...support-hdr10/


https://www.bestbuy.com/site/panason...?skuId=6361757


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post #190 of 1014 Old 09-25-2019, 05:02 PM
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If this works as advertised then it could be a game changer and sway people to JVC. At the same time it would hopefully drive the competition to do the same with their products.
Well on this forum, I think by thread movement people are already swayed....... lol
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post #191 of 1014 Old 09-26-2019, 03:58 AM
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Originally Posted by skylarlove1999 View Post
The 420 does have the same exact tone mapping as the 820 and is now available in the US as of this past weekend. 820 supports Dolby Vision. The 420 does not.


https://www.bestofhighend.com/panaso...support-hdr10/


https://www.bestbuy.com/site/panason...?skuId=6361757


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Sorry, when the 420 first came out it did not include the HD optomizer. The did it with a firmware update. Since it has the same chipset I would think that the picture should be the same as the 820 if one is using HDMI output. On anther note it would be ease fore Panasonic to include the 350 nit setting on the 820 and 420 if they decided to do so with a firmware update.
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post #192 of 1014 Old 09-26-2019, 04:06 AM
 
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Sorry, when the 420 first came out it did not include the HD optomizer. The did it with a firmware update. Since it has the same chipset I would think that the picture should be the same as the 820 if one is using HDMI output. On anther note it would be ease fore Panasonic to include the 350 nit setting on the 820 and 420 if they decided to do so with a firmware update.
No worries. They could change the nits to 350 via a firmware update but then they couldn't charge a $500 premium to us projector owners for reducing the nits by 150.

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post #193 of 1014 Old 09-26-2019, 04:10 AM
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No worries. They could change the nits to 350 via a firmware update but then they couldn't charge a $500 premium to us projector owners for reducing the nits by 150.

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They may want to reconsider since JVC seems to have left Panasonic out in the cold with their announced firmware update. As we know JVC worked with Panasonic on the 9000.
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post #194 of 1014 Old 09-29-2019, 01:10 AM
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That's one of the Main considerations as to why I returned the UB820 and went for the UB9000.
(Nits can be set to 350 on the UB9000)
Much-much better fit with my RS4500 projector.

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Unfortunately, Terry, none of these features will matter *at all* once JVC's dynamic tone mapping firmware is loaded.

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You can get a $299 Sony player with source direct sony ubp-x800m2 and not need a $1000 player if that is the case. Not much happening to the video or need the bells or whistles if you are sending as it to the projector.
Yea, this is what I'm thinking. Any player that can deliver quality untouched video to the display and bitstream the audio is the same as any other once the tone mapping is working.

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I do like the idea of the Panasonic 9000 being able to set the target nits at 350 and then passing the HDR signal to the JVC projector for it to do the dynamic tone mapping for scene by scene HDR optimization, with the coming firmware update.
This does not seem useful to me. In essence this is trying to pretone map or perhaps compress the range into a 350 nit image. None of this is needed when the display can measure each frame's luminance level and adjust on the fly accordingly.
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post #196 of 1014 Old 09-29-2019, 04:04 AM
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The fact that JVC used an Oppo 103 in their demo at IFA in Berlin tells it all. As Markmon has said there is no need for the pre tonemaping when the new firmware comes out.
I think that Panasonic and JVC had a deal to show their hardware together at CEDIA. I know a few people who asked the question if there was still a need for the Panasonic and they were told no. I think any player with source direct like the Oppo or Sony should work with the new firmware. I am sure there will be many reports soon after it is released. I wonder if Panasonic will release a firmware with the source direct option.
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post #197 of 1014 Old 09-29-2019, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by rwestley View Post
The fact that JVC used an Oppo 103 in their demo at IFA in Berlin tells it all. As Markmon has said there is no need for the pre tonemaping when the new firmware comes out.
I think that Panasonic and JVC had a deal to show their hardware together at CEDIA. I know a few people who asked the question if there was still a need for the Panasonic and they were told no. I think any player with source direct like the Oppo or Sony should work with the new firmware. I am sure there will be many reports soon after it is released. I wonder if Panasonic will release a firmware with the source direct option.
I have made that request of them already. I would like to think it could be done. I mean surely it is easier to send the source bitstream straight out through the HDMI port than processing it first?

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Do sony players provide reality creation?

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This may help some - I'm always surprised how many folks don't know you can have subtitles of choice on youtube videos -
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post #200 of 1014 Old 09-30-2019, 03:06 AM
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Firmware rumored for release Monday 7th October.
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post #201 of 1014 Old 09-30-2019, 03:19 AM
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Firmware rumored for release Monday 7th October.
What's the source?
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post #202 of 1014 Old 09-30-2019, 04:46 AM
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What's the source?
Another forum. Info from a dealer. Take it with a pinch of salt.
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post #203 of 1014 Old 09-30-2019, 04:51 AM
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Another forum. Info from a dealer. Take it with a pinch of salt.

Lets keep our fingers crossed and hope for the best Monday release would be awesome
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I'm really looking forward to the comparisons of how this firmware performs vs. a lumagen, UB820 w/optimizer, etc. Could be very interesting!

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post #205 of 1014 Old 09-30-2019, 07:11 AM
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I'm really looking forward to the comparisons of how this firmware performs vs. a lumagen, UB820 w/optimizer, etc. Could be very interesting!

Yes, this will be nice to see... :-) if at least some of that information will be true than we can expect much of new features from Panasonic&JVC relation.
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post #206 of 1014 Old 09-30-2019, 06:18 PM
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I have made that request of them already. I would like to think it could be done. I mean surely it is easier to send the source bitstream straight out through the HDMI port than processing it first?
Pardon the basic question but maybe I don't understand what "source direct" means. It is not the same as sending the signal to projector without tone mapping? That is already an option provided.
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post #207 of 1014 Old 10-01-2019, 02:32 AM
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Firmware rumored for release Monday 7th October.
Just saw another post whom is demoing the new firmware saying it is still 2-3 weeks away.
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post #208 of 1014 Old 10-01-2019, 09:38 AM
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This is so interesting...
The buzz is not of the new projectors and capabilities of those PJ's announced at CEDIA 2019, it's about a manufacturer generating new software features that is the 'talk of the town', though they haven't released a new PJ to compete in 2019.. they are releasing a SW update. for FREE. and by what I see in the news and article, I'm thinking they stole some serious thunder from others manufacturers... I love it...



Waiting patiently for the release...
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post #209 of 1014 Old 10-01-2019, 11:27 AM
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This is so interesting...
The buzz is not of the new projectors and capabilities of those PJ's announced at CEDIA 2019, it's about a manufacturer generating new software features that is the 'talk of the town', though they haven't released a new PJ to compete in 2019.. they are releasing a SW update. for FREE. and by what I see in the news and article, I'm thinking they stole some serious thunder from others manufacturers... I love it...

Waiting patiently for the release...
Once the new DTM HDR firmware is out, these will be as good as new projectors - at least for 4K. It's a first for being in projectors !
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post #210 of 1014 Old 10-01-2019, 12:33 PM
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New firmware looks very interesting... but what i realy dont know how you can calibrate colors if you can set "Color Temperarature", this will be fixed in new JVC_Autocal?
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