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post #361 of 861 Old 05-13-2020, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
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@Greyimporter possible to see a pixel grid?



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post #362 of 861 Old 05-15-2020, 04:31 AM
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this thread should stay active, @bdht is it possible to share some pics plz of actual content comparing the different projectors you have ?
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post #363 of 861 Old 05-15-2020, 09:50 AM - Thread Starter
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this thread should stay active, @bdht is it possible to share some pics plz of actual content comparing the different projectors you have ?
Oh, I dont know, Im a lousy photographer and I dont know that any differences would actually show in pictures. The technology differences(panels/internal optivs/cooling), assessment of lenses, processing etc., contrast, gamut, and spectrum measurements, these things paint a clearer picture of video performance. Alot of things you have to see for yourself. I could take a picture of a VA panel and an OLED panel and they would probably look the same but the contrast and video performance are leagues apart.

Back a few pages zombie posted some photos
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post59282478
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post #364 of 861 Old 05-15-2020, 12:25 PM
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Oh, I dont know, Im a lousy photographer and I dont know that any differences would actually show in pictures. The technology differences(panels/internal optivs/cooling), assessment of lenses, processing etc., contrast, gamut, and spectrum measurements, these things paint a clearer picture of video performance. Alot of things you have to see for yourself. I could take a picture of a VA panel and an OLED panel and they would probably look the same but the contrast and video performance are leagues apart.

Back a few pages zombie posted some photos
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post59282478
I've never been able to fully capture what I'm seeing on projector performance in a photo either. There's too many issues. You have the camera quality. Mine always have a softening effect. Then there's the degradation from posting to a hosting sites like Youtube. Trying to judge color accuracy is impossible because you end up judging the accuracy of your monitor or Ipad etc.

You can't even really fully use other people's opinions either. There is a faulty assumption that your NX5 will be the same as mine (or sufficiently similar) because it's the same brand and model. I've seen a huge variation between the best and the worst units at the home theater end of the market. You could be looking at a completely different projector sometimes.

One of the reasons for the high cost of high end projectors is the time they spend at the factory ensuring accuracy and consistency from unit to unit. On a $5k projector they leave the calibration and fine tuning up to the user but there are some things that can't be adjusted. E.g. If you happened to get the bottom 10% of lens quality, you'll have a softer image and inferior real world contrast to the hand-picked review unit with the top 5% of components.

Scientific readings might be more useful in the areas that can be objectively measured (not all can) but I'd never trust user measured data. Even if everyone measured in identical conditions (room lighting, screen size, screen color etc), which they definitely don't, the accuracy of cheap light meters and spectrophotometers etc is somewhere between poor and inconsistent.

When I used to use my light meters to answer customer's questions on the optical gain of screens, I'd see 5 different results from 5 handheld light meters. They also have very poor sensitivity to low light levels. I.e. You can't measure black levels properly using cheap handheld light meters.

You can't even trust the supposedly "professional reviewers". I've seen more than one measure black levels with the light on so they could read their light meter and laptop screen...

And... most importantly (IMO) is that you should pair the projector to the right screen. Intuitively, you'd want to use the same screen to compare each projector to make it "fair". But, that would be like comparing the worlds fastest car to the worlds quickest speed boat and insisting that they both race on the road. I.e. a 1200 lumen JVC would perform poorly on a darker colored screen and be most at home on a small to medium size white screen. A 10,000 lumen pro grade device would look best on a dark color screen or on a very large white or gray one.

This is another reason I prefer to buy used projectors - so I can try them myself and sell them on without a loss if they disappoint me. It's harder than it sounds to trust yourself over the internet opinions though. People take comfort in peer reassurance. It's not enough that I like it. Other people have to agree. It doesn't matter that the guy saying it's "the best projector at any price" has only seen 6 others. If they're talking about the one I just bought, I want to believe it. If they have a graph to prove it, even better....
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post #365 of 861 Old 05-15-2020, 01:15 PM
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@Greyimporter possible to see a pixel grid?



I can't usually see a pixel grid on any 1080p projector and screen combo from my seat and I can see it on every display (including my 4k Oled) if I press my nose to the screen.

On specular or retro-reflective screens, you have to stand at least 5 ft away to see the image. That's clearly no issue on a screen that's 120" wide as you'd never sit closer than 5 ft from it. I can't usually see the grid even at that distance on any screen. Plus I believe the Barco / Projectiondesign guys have something in their design which makes the grid harder to see than on other projectors. It's not black so it's not prominent.

I'm not sure you can rely on people's pics to judge that kind of thing. The individual projector chip size and screen size plays a larger role than the screen material. If white or light gray screens make a dark pixel grid more prominent, I can't say I've ever noticed. It's always been a non-issue to me unless I made the screen too large for the projector.

It was part of the sales pitch when 1080p displays came out and then with 4k and I'm sure they'll do the same with 8k. Buy the new whatever to avoid visible pixels. I haven't been bothered by that kind of thing from my seat though since the days of 480i CRTs and line-doublers.

Are your eyes really good enough to see a pixel grid from your seat using a projector with a .95" or .98" DMD?
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post #366 of 861 Old 05-15-2020, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Are your eyes really good enough to see a pixel grid from your seat using a projector with a .95" or .98" DMD?
Its not that you can see the pixel grid, its that you can see the optical layer as a shimmer/sparkle/sheen effect during video, that the material will impact uniformity, and what the minimum throw ratio of the material is as the former is accentuated when using shorter throws.

The goal being to be perfectly matte and lambertian like the st100.

My XY Black Crystal 0.8 is a good material for what it is but it sparkles abit. I have some samples of dark dark grey almost black hybrid(front/rear projection) materials and they are the messiest sparkly materials Ive seen so far, moreso than fiberglass(maxwhite) or SIs black diamond.

Seeing the uniformity of a pixel close up is a great indicator of how the material performs in that respect and simple close up focused flash shots like the second picture give a clear picture of uniformity performance as well.
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post #367 of 861 Old 05-17-2020, 06:54 PM
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Its not that you can see the pixel grid, its that you can see the optical layer as a shimmer/sparkle/sheen effect during video, that the material will impact uniformity, and what the minimum throw ratio of the material is as the former is accentuated when using shorter throws.

The goal being to be perfectly matte and lambertian like the st100.

My XY Black Crystal 0.8 is a good material for what it is but it sparkles abit. I have some samples of dark dark grey almost black hybrid(front/rear projection) materials and they are the messiest sparkly materials Ive seen so far, moreso than fiberglass(maxwhite) or SIs black diamond.

Seeing the uniformity of a pixel close up is a great indicator of how the material performs in that respect and simple close up focused flash shots like the second picture give a clear picture of uniformity performance as well.
I never used anything with sparkles to make my screens (or any particles of any kind). I sat 9ft from the screen in a Manhattan apartment when I designed my old screen and had floor to ceiling windows. Any visible surface texture or sparkles was out of the question....

There is no reason for visible sparkles on a properly designed multi-layer screen. There should be sufficient diffusion in the other layers in the stack to create a uniform image. It's a harder problem to deal with on single layer screens if the design involves embedding reflective particles on top of the material with nothing to diffuse them.

Screens like mine, Black Diamond, DNP Supernova etc use a metalized film at the back for the reflective layer, not individual particles. There's nothing to sparkle. The color of these screens has no impact on sparkling. Darker screens simply use darker filters.
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post #368 of 861 Old 05-17-2020, 07:09 PM
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I never used anything with sparkles to make my screens (or any particles of any kind). I sat 9ft from the screen in a Manhattan apartment when I designed my old screen and had floor to ceiling windows. Any visible surface texture or sparkles was out of the question....

There is no reason for visible sparkles on a properly designed multi-layer screen. There should be sufficient diffusion in the other layers in the stack to create a uniform image. It's a harder problem to deal with on single layer screens if the design involves embedding reflective particles on top of the material with nothing to diffuse them.

Screens like mine, Black Diamond, DNP Supernova etc use a metalized film at the back for the reflective layer, not individual particles. There's nothing to sparkle. The color of these screens has no impact on sparkling. Darker screens simply use darker filters.
You don't see a shimmer on screen when viewing a Black Diamond or DNP Supernova screen? I sure do.
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post #369 of 861 Old 05-17-2020, 07:26 PM - Thread Starter
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You don't see a shimmer on screen when viewing a Black Diamond or DNP Supernova screen? I sure do.
You do I the supernova? because I dont on the parallax, maybe not quite ST100 but close.
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You do I the supernova? because I dont on the parallax, maybe not quite ST100 but close.
It may be me, because with ST130 G3,I can walk into a demo at CEDIA and immediately tell if the screen is ST130 G3 due to all the sparkle I see.
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post #371 of 861 Old 05-18-2020, 03:09 AM
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Some great points Greyimporter and Dovercat.

AVS has always been obsessed with absolute numbers and large numbers are perceived to offer huge advantage over small numbers. So 2K:1 is dismissed by most as a waste of time no matter the Lumens, ANSI, Lens etc. This has been the case for years.

I've owned enough gear to know there is a lot more to this hobby than meets the eye (pun intended).

Currently I run a Runco LED Q750 with upgraded 2nd generation Phat LEDs I sourced a few years back. It is one of the sweetest pictures I have ever experienced. Contrast is as good as I need and shadow detail and color rendition in dark scenes is phenomenal. High ANSI and super sharp lens on a single chip top the cake. As for light source I love LEDs and their wide color spectrum. LEDs are the only way to go for me now that I lived with them for few years. No rainbows, color artifacts from wheel etc., They seem to complement DLP in a best possible way.

I have purchased the latest JVC NX5 as I wanted to see if HDR is all it's hyped up to be, and see if JVC finally caught up on some of the parameters they sucked at back when they first come out.

It has been an interesting experience watching and comparing the two side by side, scene by scene, clip by clip.
I must say that I am on the fence at the moment. I have a very good JVC sample, almost no panel discolouration which manifests as bright corners, great convergence and alignment, not sure you can ask for more in a 3 chipper. It is a really mature product. JVC does everything well, but I still love my Runco. It's just a more organic image on some levels. I trust my eyes, they've been lucky to experience some pretty awesome hi end tech at Cedia in the past. I know what the numbers say, I got the meters, but I watch my movies with my eyeballs, and they still love the ole DLP.

Naturally JVC has lot more lumens, and HDR works really well with latest firmware. I do find DLP image more organic and easy on the eyes though. I will watch both PJs for a while longer, but at the moment I am actually thinking of picking up an older PD three chipper DLP such as F82 or F85 and go in that direction.

Which brings me to a quick question. Are you guys familiar with those platforms? Not too many reviews as they were ultra hi end at the time. I don't want to go back to color wheels, I am rainbow sensitive and after living with LED DLP it's hard to go back to flashes. I briefly considered finding FL35 with the WUXGA chip, but that pj is a ghost and the lumens would be near my Runco, so no improvement in that area. I just don't know what F82 or F85 would bring to the table.
Tell me, how did you manage to replace the LED on your projector? I have NUvision p2 which is practically a copy of Runco Q750i. I am not able to write PM.
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post #372 of 861 Old 05-18-2020, 10:12 AM
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this thread should stay active, @bdht is it possible to share some pics plz of actual content comparing the different projectors you have ?
I tried to take some pictures for you of a low light level scene in a Netflix video but was unsuccessful. The scene was a slow moving action scene but it still moved enough that my Nikon couldn't take the picture without smearing of motion. It did fine on the bright scenes but I agree with Brian(bdht) that it was difficult to see much difference in the pictures. However, to my eyes the dark scenes were somewhat revealing.The projectors I tested were a JVC X790, a Runco Q750i, a Marantz 15S1, and my beloved LG PF1500 LED shoebox projector. In fact, that is the order of the quality of these dark scenes as far as black level and contrast is concerned. But then, we all knew that. What was interesting though was how close the Q750i was to the JVC. In fact, it's so close that I haven't used the JVC in weeks.

A couple of qualifiers to my informal eye test:

1. None of the projectors have been professionally calibrated. Each one is using settings from professional published tests or those that have been posted here on AVS. I've been planning on having the JVC done but haven't gotten around to it yet.
2. The scenes were very dark (Netflix/Fauda/Season 3, Episode 5, 33:01 - 33:44) but did have a little bit of highlighting in the background. As we know, this helps the dlps in low light.

As a result of this exercise I am going to have the isf calibrator pay a visit and do the JVC and the Marantz maybe. The Runco is awfully good as is, to my eyes.
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post #373 of 861 Old 05-18-2020, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
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The Runco is awfully good as is, to my eyes.
One benefit of Runcos line is a factory calibration baked into the firmware.

Have you been using the native gamut with anything?
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post #374 of 861 Old 05-18-2020, 11:34 AM
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One benefit of Runcos line is a factory calibration baked into the firmware.

Have you been using the native gamut with anything?
im not in my HT right now but if I remember correctly I am on PCE. Isn’t that where Native is?

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post #375 of 861 Old 05-18-2020, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
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im not in my HT right now but if I remember correctly I am on PCE. Isn’t that where Native is?
Theres a native gamut option as well if you have pce calibrated. Native gamut with the pce setting would be will all the pce settings(or at least saturation) at 100
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Theres a native gamut option as well if you have pce calibrated. Native gamut with the pce setting would be will all the pce settings(or at least saturation) at 100
You bring this up for a reason based on my previous postings just before. What should I expect with native? Better color?

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post #377 of 861 Old 05-18-2020, 12:37 PM
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post #378 of 861 Old 05-18-2020, 12:52 PM - Thread Starter
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You bring this up for a reason based on my previous postings just before. What should I expect with native? Better color?
Ya, just set it to Native and Behold. Try to watch something flashy and colorful
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Ya, just set it to Native and Behold. Try to watch something flashy and colorful
I'll give that a try. Got just the right watch for the full color: Community serial on Netflix.

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post #380 of 861 Old 05-18-2020, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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I'll give that a try. Got just the right watch for the full color: Community serial on Netflix.
Lol, try some animated stuff/cgi, the begining of john wick, the intro for jessica jones season 3, laser battles
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post #381 of 861 Old 05-18-2020, 01:40 PM
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I tried to take some pictures for you of a low light level scene in a Netflix video but was unsuccessful. The scene was a slow moving action scene but it still moved enough that my Nikon couldn't take the picture without smearing of motion. It did fine on the bright scenes but I agree with Brian(bdht) that it was difficult to see much difference in the pictures. However, to my eyes the dark scenes were somewhat revealing.The projectors I tested were a JVC X790, a Runco Q750i, a Marantz 15S1, and my beloved LG PF1500 LED shoebox projector. In fact, that is the order of the quality of these dark scenes as far as black level and contrast is concerned. But then, we all knew that. What was interesting though was how close the Q750i was to the JVC. In fact, it's so close that I haven't used the JVC in weeks.

A couple of qualifiers to my informal eye test:

1. None of the projectors have been professionally calibrated. Each one is using settings from professional published tests or those that have been posted here on AVS. I've been planning on having the JVC done but haven't gotten around to it yet.
2. The scenes were very dark (Netflix/Fauda/Season 3, Episode 5, 33:01 - 33:44) but did have a little bit of highlighting in the background. As we know, this helps the dlps in low light.

As a result of this exercise I am going to have the isf calibrator pay a visit and do the JVC and the Marantz maybe. The Runco is awfully good as is, to my eyes.
wow its really interesting to see the Runco Q750i is so close to the x790 as black level/contrast.

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post #382 of 861 Old 05-18-2020, 05:27 PM
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I tried to take some pictures for you of a low light level scene in a Netflix video but was unsuccessful. The scene was a slow moving action scene but it still moved enough that my Nikon couldn't take the picture without smearing of motion. It did fine on the bright scenes but I agree with Brian(bdht) that it was difficult to see much difference in the pictures. However, to my eyes the dark scenes were somewhat revealing.The projectors I tested were a JVC X790, a Runco Q750i, a Marantz 15S1, and my beloved LG PF1500 LED shoebox projector. In fact, that is the order of the quality of these dark scenes as far as black level and contrast is concerned. But then, we all knew that. What was interesting though was how close the Q750i was to the JVC. In fact, it's so close that I haven't used the JVC in weeks.

A couple of qualifiers to my informal eye test:

1. None of the projectors have been professionally calibrated. Each one is using settings from professional published tests or those that have been posted here on AVS. I've been planning on having the JVC done but haven't gotten around to it yet.
2. The scenes were very dark (Netflix/Fauda/Season 3, Episode 5, 33:01 - 33:44) but did have a little bit of highlighting in the background. As we know, this helps the dlps in low light.

As a result of this exercise I am going to have the isf calibrator pay a visit and do the JVC and the Marantz maybe. The Runco is awfully good as is, to my eyes.
That's amazing considering how sharp the Q750i is as a single chip. Did you have the iris wide open on the 790 with the DI on? It's funny that some people think the contrast numbers will immediately translate to a difference the eyes can see. The numbers offer objectivity for sure, but I would think there would have to be about 2x the number to see a difference.

What I'm more interested in is what was closer, the X790's sharpness to the Q750i or the Q750i's black levels to the JVC?
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post #383 of 861 Old 05-18-2020, 05:29 PM
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wow its really interesting to see the Runco Q750i is so close to the x790 as black level/contrast.
It really is. Dimming is spec'd at 100,000:1. I wonder if it activates at very high ADL or through a good range like the Acer laser VL7860.

And I'm still waiting to hear your impressions when you get your Sim2.
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It really is. Dimming is spec'd at 100,000:1. I wonder if it activates at very high ADL or through a good range like the Acer laser VL7860.

And I'm still waiting to hear your impressions when you get your Sim2.
Which Sim2 is he getting?
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Which Sim2 is he getting?
Hi. Sorry, I thought tnaik talked about it here already. I should just wait then to let him spill the beans.
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That's amazing considering how sharp the Q750i is as a single chip. Did you have the iris wide open on the 790 with the DI on? It's funny that some people think the contrast numbers will immediately translate to a difference the eyes can see. The numbers offer objectivity for sure, but I would think there would have to be about 2x the number to see a difference.

What I'm more interested in is what was closer, the X790's sharpness to the Q750i or the Q750i's black levels to the JVC?
I will check and get back to you.

Jack
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post #387 of 861 Old 05-18-2020, 05:48 PM
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Hi. Sorry, I thought tnaik talked about it here already. I should just wait then to let him spill the beans.
@tnaik4 Spill the beans already! So which class DLP wizard are you going to be?
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post #388 of 861 Old 05-18-2020, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
wow its really interesting to see the Runco Q750i is so close to the x790 as black level/contrast.
I had the Vivitek H9090 and RS600 in my room at the same time for a couple months. The H9090 has contrast as good as any of the other LED DLP, pretty much. In a good room, contrast and black levels of the H9090 were not that close. The H9090 threw a nice image, but contrast, black levels and light output could not compete against the cheaper JVC. In my room (black pit) the JVC threw the better image. In bright SDR scenes, the H9090 was equal to the JVC.
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post #389 of 861 Old 05-18-2020, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
I had the Vivitek H9090 and RS600 in my room at the same time for a couple months. The H9090 has contrast as good as any of the other LED DLP, pretty much. In a good room, contrast and black levels of the H9090 were not that close. The H9090 threw a nice image, but contrast, black levels and light output could not compete against the cheaper JVC. In my room (black pit) the JVC threw the better image. In bright SDR scenes, the H9090 was equal to the JVC.
H9090 is 700 lumens, ~1800:1 native, 4x 7200:1 dynamic, 8x 14,200:1
Q750i is 450 lumens, 3500:1 native, 4x 14000:1 dynamic, 8x 28,000:1. The q750i appears to have its dynamic dimming function tweaked compared to the h9090 as well, it's less noticeable, less brightness shifts, grayscale flashes, etc.
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post #390 of 861 Old 05-18-2020, 06:56 PM
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Wow.....just came across this thread and have to say it's very helpful. I own Sim2 Mico 50 and Runco Q750i........The Q750i wasn't mine until my friend lost his job and couldn't afford to refund me.

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