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post #421 of 861 Old 05-19-2020, 12:21 PM
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It seems we have two marketing organizations here in this latest discussion. Mike from AVS and the Theo guys. Who to believe?

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post #422 of 861 Old 05-19-2020, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JackB View Post
It seems we have two marketing organizations here in this latest discussion. Mike from AVS and the Theo guys. Who to believe?
It's not about marketing or this projector vs that projector, the original question was:

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Originally Posted by Dennis Moore View Post
There has to be a good way to photograph the differences in black levels on various projectors, right?
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post #423 of 861 Old 05-19-2020, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by bdht View Post
The solid state diodes do illuminate the dmd much better than uhp bulbs.

Lenses are a big part of the equation regardless, but it seems to have a greater impact on rgb led, and perhaps laser/wheel as well.

The lens uniformity on the uhz65 measures pretty low, 56%
https://www.projectorcentral.com/Opt...ter-Review.htm
Do you have a source for this, because that is not what I am being told and from reading umr's (Jeff Meier) post 129 that is not his opinion either.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post59670728
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post #424 of 861 Old 05-19-2020, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by JackB View Post
It seems we have two marketing organizations here in this latest discussion. Mike from AVS and the Theo guys. Who to believe?
I just reported what the third party person (Kris Deering) that was there for the comparison of one of those shootouts said. Kris does not sell projectors.
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post #425 of 861 Old 05-19-2020, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by bdht View Post
It's not about marketing or this projector vs that projector, the original question was:
I rather enjoy your posts, but it's very easy to manipulate a digital camera to do a side by side and have it appear that the brighter actually has better black level, when if you were there in person, the elevated black floor is obvious.

This sort of feature of digital cameras is absolutely necessary when taking pictures of people for example. We don't care how accurate the image is to representing reality, but we can see their facial features.

You can also show a picture that every single pixel is brighter than the one with the better black floor but mess with saturation, then you use curves to make those pixels darker. Possibly with the help of an ND filter.

Digital cameras are both a curse and a blessing. Unless you have access to the RAW file, you have no idea what they're actually doing.
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post #426 of 861 Old 05-19-2020, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
I rather enjoy your posts, but it's very easy to manipulate a digital camera to do a side by side and have it appear that the brighter actually has better black level, when if you were there in person, the elevated black floor is obvious.

This sort of feature of digital cameras is absolutely necessary when taking pictures of people for example. We don't care how accurate the image is to representing reality, but we can see their facial features.

You can also show a picture that every single pixel is brighter than the one with the better black floor but mess with saturation, then you use curves to make those pixels darker. Possibly with the help of an ND filter.

Digital cameras are both a curse and a blessing. Unless you have access to the RAW file, you have no idea what they're actually doing.
Gotcha, that makes sense for regular images, which is what I originally said about providing photos and how they all look the same, but I cant see how you could skew 0ire with the projectors side by side in a single photo.
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post #427 of 861 Old 05-19-2020, 01:17 PM
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Gotcha, that makes sense for regular images, which is what I originally said about providing photos and how they all look the same, but I cant see how you could skew 0ire with the projectors side by side in a single photo.
By making sure the luminance of the background, that none of those pixels brightness levels appear in the one you're comparing. Then use curves to darken the brighter side.
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post #428 of 861 Old 05-19-2020, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Do you have a source for this, because that is not what I am being told and from reading umr's (Jeff Meier) post 129 that is not his opinion either.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post59670728
I can't find it but one of the reviews mentioned due to the 16x9 format of the LEDs and the phlatlight led itself having better light emitting uniformity than a uhp bulb.

Purely speculative, but one M150 owner reported superior observed pixel fill of LED illuminated 0.95dmds vs uhp illuminated 0.95dmds. My observations are the same and I guessed that it's due to the individual pixel being more uniformly illuminated by the phlatlight 16x9 LEDs than by a UHP bulb.

It looks like that article by Jeff is discussing OLED panel uniformity and color performance of UHP vs laser phosphor?
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post #429 of 861 Old 05-19-2020, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
By making sure the luminance of the background, that none of those pixels brightness levels appear in the one you're comparing. Then use curves to darken the brighter side.
I've got some interesting conspiracy theories about our current situation as well if you'd care to hear them ;]
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post #430 of 861 Old 05-19-2020, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
I rather enjoy your posts, but it's very easy to manipulate a digital camera to do a side by side and have it appear that the brighter actually has better black level, when if you were there in person, the elevated black floor is obvious.

This sort of feature of digital cameras is absolutely necessary when taking pictures of people for example. We don't care how accurate the image is to representing reality, but we can see their facial features.

You can also show a picture that every single pixel is brighter than the one with the better black floor but mess with saturation, then you use curves to make those pixels darker. Possibly with the help of an ND filter.

Digital cameras are both a curse and a blessing. Unless you have access to the RAW file, you have no idea what they're actually doing.
Of course one can manipulate images... I was rather speculating on a process (perhaps also of manipulation) that could accurate photograph/depict what the eye sees.

I'm not sure why anybody here would go to the trouble of setting up a comparison for the sole purpose of falsifying an image, but who knows.
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post #431 of 861 Old 05-19-2020, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Moore View Post
Of course one can manipulate images... I was rather speculating on a process (perhaps also of manipulation) that could accurate photograph/depict what the eye sees.

I'm not sure why anybody here would go to the trouble of setting up a comparison for the sole purpose of falsifying an image, but who knows.
I guess we were going on a tangent with the Theo vs JVC comparison.

But, like I said, it would be very hard to do anyway with reliable results, even without human intervention. The 'god in the camera' so to speak will try to manipulate images too. (The camera tries to do photoshop type voodoo on its own, even programs like LightRoom will do it to your RAW.)

The only way I can think of would be to use a quality 35mm camera, have the images developed onto slides, and then use a quality slide scanner.
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post #432 of 861 Old 05-19-2020, 03:12 PM
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Yeah I wouldn't know how to imagine pulling it off... but I am certain that somebody as versed in cameras as most here are in home theater could be clever enough to figure it out.
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post #433 of 861 Old 05-19-2020, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Moore View Post
Of course one can manipulate images... I was rather speculating on a process (perhaps also of manipulation) that could accurate photograph/depict what the eye sees.

I'm not sure why anybody here would go to the trouble of setting up a comparison for the sole purpose of falsifying an image, but who knows.
I know a company, that paid a calibrator to come in and calibrate some displays for a shootout the next day. The calibrator swung by, right before the show to just check on everything and found that settings had been changed on all of the displays, except for one. So, yes it is done. Heck an old audio trick in store salesmen used to do when you wanted to compare speakers, was to slightly turn up the volume on the pair they wanted to sell. I wonder if that works in an email, if I put it in bold.
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post #434 of 861 Old 05-19-2020, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
here's a few screenshots of R709 content from youtube. This is about the perceived brightness at sitting distance with the projector about 1 foot above eye level.

not too shabby for a 10+ year old projector taking a look at some HDR content and the expanded color capabilities sometime this weekend.







WOW! Zombie10K, did you reset to factory and then choose REC709?

tony4k
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post #435 of 861 Old 05-19-2020, 06:27 PM
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Git 'r dun brah!
Hi. Those links just bring up a search engine.
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post #436 of 861 Old 05-19-2020, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Do you have a source for this, because that is not what I am being told and from reading umr's (Jeff Meier) post 129 that is not his opinion either.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post59670728
I'd have to read his post to see all of what he said. Jeff has certainly calibrated whole slew of displays. He uses the Nero 3D2 and from what he has seen, he feels the Sim2 Super Lumis is the best projector. Do you agree with that, that it is?
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post #437 of 861 Old 05-19-2020, 06:33 PM
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Hi. Those links just bring up a search engine.

This one works.

https://www.carookee.de/forum/broadc...0.0.01105.html
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post #438 of 861 Old 05-19-2020, 06:35 PM
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Thank you. I'll take a look.
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post #439 of 861 Old 05-19-2020, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by tbase1 View Post
WOW! Zombie10K, did you reset to factory and then choose REC709?
hi, I did something a bit unique with the Q750, I calibrated the grey scale with a hardware controlled light sensor I found inside the projector. This made the LED dimming much smoother in stepping vs. adjusting the RGB menu controls.

other than that it was all factory settings for gamma and R709, etc.

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post #440 of 861 Old 05-19-2020, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
I'd have to read his post to see all of what he said. Jeff has certainly calibrated whole slew of displays. He uses the Nero 3D2 and from what he has seen, he feels the Sim2 Super Lumis is the best projector. Do you agree with that, that it is?
Depends on what you are looking for in a projector and what your room is like. Like yours, mine is a black pit. Floor to ceiling black velvet curtains on three walls and above the screen. Black velvet panels and black cloth sound panels on the ceiling. So a JVC RS3000 looks great in my room. Better than the DLP's in my opinion. The Sim2 Super Lumis is an excellent projector and if you have a large screen it would be a great option. Every year AVS forum members post the question (usually in the 20k threads), what projector looked best at CEDIA. For the last several years the consensus has been either JVC or Sony.

Added
Now if someone wanted to give me a SuperLumis, I would not complain and yes, I could be happy with it.

Last edited by Mike Garrett; 05-19-2020 at 08:30 PM.
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post #441 of 861 Old 05-19-2020, 09:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Now if someone wanted to give me a SuperLumis, I would not complain and yes, I could be happy with it.
Would be even better if you could use a color filter and hit p3
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post #442 of 861 Old 05-19-2020, 10:20 PM
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Depends on what you are looking for in a projector and what your room is like. Like yours, mine is a black pit. Floor to ceiling black velvet curtains on three walls and above the screen. Black velvet panels and black cloth sound panels on the ceiling. So a JVC RS3000 looks great in my room. Better than the DLP's in my opinion. The Sim2 Super Lumis is an excellent projector and if you have a large screen it would be a great option. Every year AVS forum members post the question (usually in the 20k threads), what projector looked best at CEDIA. For the last several years the consensus has been either JVC or Sony.

Added
Now if someone wanted to give me a SuperLumis, I would not complain and yes, I could be happy with it.
I haven't seen a Superlumis in action. I assume it's similar to the Runco LS-10 but better.

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Would be even better if you could use a color filter and hit p3
I guess the pro calibrators can set up a custom color profile that gets you in that direction. And that's an advantage of the mid and top tier HDR JVCs, that they come with the wide color filters. Of course your LED DLPs are great there native.
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post #443 of 861 Old 05-20-2020, 07:12 AM
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I've got a Runco 750i which is great. I had it calibrated a few years ago and had a touch up the end of last year. There was significant drift in terms of gray scale (the primaries were ok). I always thought LEDs were more stable than bulbs and didn't really see any shifts. Has anyone experienced anything like this?
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post #444 of 861 Old 05-20-2020, 07:43 AM
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Did you find fiddling with the light sensor changes the light output? I would love to figure out how to drive my LEDs harder as I have the second gen. LEDs capable of higher output.



Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
hi, I did something a bit unique with the Q750, I calibrated the grey scale with a hardware controlled light sensor I found inside the projector. This made the LED dimming much smoother in stepping vs. adjusting the RGB menu controls.

other than that it was all factory settings for gamma and R709, etc.

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post #445 of 861 Old 05-20-2020, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
Hahah , i m in the process of getting a Sim2 M.150, should have it in about 10 days if everything goes according to plan, so really cant wait to see how it ll look since it was regarged by most as a reference projector back in 2012-2013.
Did you get the m.150?

When you do can you post the light output? For some reason none of the reviews seem to agree on how many lumens it can put out. Figures are all over.

BTW. If you decide you don't like it let me know and I will grab it from you or swap for NX5, LS10 or Q750.
I have been looking for one for years on flee bay, but no luck. It would be a nice upgrade from my Runco 750 I think
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post #446 of 861 Old 05-20-2020, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
I know a company, that paid a calibrator to come in and calibrate some displays for a shootout the next day. The calibrator swung by, right before the show to just check on everything and found that settings had been changed on all of the displays, except for one. So, yes it is done. Heck an old audio trick in store salesmen used to do when you wanted to compare speakers, was to slightly turn up the volume on the pair they wanted to sell. I wonder if that works in an email, if I put it in bold.
For sure there is deception everywhere... but an enthusiastic individual from this thread (who isn't selling anything and happens to have two projectors worth comparing on hand) trying to capture an image similar to what they see with their eyes and share it with us? I'm not going to be too suspicious of this.
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post #447 of 861 Old 05-20-2020, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by gabeg244 View Post
I've got a Runco 750i which is great. I had it calibrated a few years ago and had a touch up the end of last year. There was significant drift in terms of gray scale (the primaries were ok). I always thought LEDs were more stable than bulbs and didn't really see any shifts. Has anyone experienced anything like this?
Calibrators like Kris Deering that have gone back to check calibration on laser projectors have reported that laser projectors do drift and need additional calibrations.
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post #448 of 861 Old 05-20-2020, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Dennis Moore View Post
For sure there is deception everywhere... but an enthusiastic individual from this thread (who isn't selling anything and happens to have two projectors worth comparing on hand) trying to capture an image similar to what they see with their eyes and share it with us? I'm not going to be too suspicious of this.
The comparison that we were talking about earlier was not by an enthusiast. The room is often times why you have some guys say there is not much difference contrast and black level wise between two projectors. Whereas another poster in a good room says he sees a huge difference between the same two models. On top of that most enthusiast do not know how to set up and calibrate the projector optimally. Then there is the problem of actually taking the picture and getting it to show an accurate representation of what you are seeing. So most posters picture comparisons I take with a huge grain of salt. Not trying to say they are being deceptive. I just know what hurdles they have in front of them to overcome and most can't.
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post #449 of 861 Old 05-20-2020, 08:15 AM
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To me, it seems as simple as setting up each projector optimally in an ideal room, connecting them to the same source, and then photographing each at a time. The images could then be presented side-by-side. The question is more of how to photograph them. Overexposure? Normal pictures then examined in Photoshop? There has to be a method for it.
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post #450 of 861 Old 05-20-2020, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quattro32 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
Hahah , i m in the process of getting a Sim2 M.150, should have it in about 10 days if everything goes according to plan, so really cant wait to see how it ll look since it was regarged by most as a reference projector back in 2012-2013.
Did you get the m.150?

When you do can you post the light output? For some reason none of the reviews seem to agree on how many lumens it can put out. Figures are all over.

BTW. If you decide you don't like it let me know and I will grab it from you or swap for NX5, LS10 or Q750.
I have been looking for one for years on flee bay, but no luck. It would be a nice upgrade from my Runco 750 I think [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
Hello Quattro,

I should get it in a 7/10 days depending on shipping speed, usually its super fast but with covid-19 everything is slower.
Once ill get it i will measure absolutely everything from light output to native/dynamic contrast, maximum gamut coverage etc.. i have good enough gear/softwares to do so.
And ill post pictures too so really cant wait, hope it arrives safe and sound first .

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