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post #781 of 868 Old 06-23-2020, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
Hahaha wouldnt be better to get the runco that has stacked q750, i forgot the name, i thinked u linked an ebay listing for 2k like couple of weeks ago. I think that unit is really interesting, and i would get one to try it if i didnt have to ship it all over the world to get it lol
it was the 73d. I mistakenly passed on one with the electronics and an electric screen for $600.
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post #782 of 868 Old 06-24-2020, 10:43 AM
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$30,000 - $60,000 projectors routinely sell for less than $2,000 on ebay just 3-5 years later. The tech doesn't improve that quickly. A 3-10 year old $20k - $100k device will almost certainly look better than current entry level devices as Blee0120 found out.

...and so, we might have to be really grateful and give big thanks to the way that Lcos and 4K are marketed.
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post #783 of 868 Old 06-25-2020, 10:28 AM
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I believe that the point where people take risks are at $300-500. Not too many are willing to risk throwing away $500 to a stranger with a non working projector or paying a lot to get it repaired. Like you, I'm happy to be the 2nd, 3rd, or 5th owner at a decent price under $500 😁. But there are risk and most prefer to buy a newer projector for that price. However, the picture quality will suffer greatly. Crazy how we can enjoy high end quality for much cheaper today.

When I was selling my DP M-Vision 1000 LED projector, I got low balled for over a year. Projector was great I just waited for the right buyer. Sold that and my JVC RS520 to upgrade to my RS2000/N7. Then, paid a few hundred to get me another high end DLP LED projector. The circle of life in the projector world lol
I'd never buy a broken projector or one on it's last legs. I certainly wouldn't pay to get one repaired.

Most of the great deals I've had have been on high end projectors with very little use. Usually units that are still on their first bulb or led / laser ones that are less than 10% into their useful life.

A lot of high end projector's get bought for one-off projects. I've had a bunch of deals on really nice Barco projectors with less than 15 hours of total use. Plus, rich people will spend $50k or $100k on a HT projector just to watch an occasional movie.

High end projectors are often built like tanks and designed to work for 100,000+ hours 24/7. DLPs don't degrade like other tech. I've never had an issue with any of my high end projectors. I've had plenty of cheaper projectors break though. I had 3 cheap Epson LCD projectors (that I'd bought new) randomly die before I said never again.

I certainly can't be bothered for the hassle of making manufacturers honor a warranty. You have to send it away and wait for three months while they decide if it's your fault and tell you parts are out of stock. Then you find out you're not covered for the part that broke and it cost more than the projector's worth to replace it. They can keep their "support".

There is no need to trust a stranger with anything. If what arrives it not what was advertised than you get your money back through ebay or PayPal. Just ask plenty of questions and avoid sellers who act shady. We all know the sort. They say stuff like "selling As Is. I don't have the means to test it". Like it's really hard to press "on" and find an HDMI source...

I could literally replace my used projector 30 times for the price of a new one...
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post #784 of 868 Old 06-25-2020, 10:45 AM
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When I was there the other day the was an LS-5 for sale for $400. It’s a great projector and the story on it is good. Just in case anyone is looking.

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post #785 of 868 Old 06-25-2020, 11:33 AM
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The performance of the m150 after trying it with many movies is just outstanding.
I m not really liking dynamic black much, its really subtle and changes color temp in a visible way and i dont feel its needed anyway so i keep it off.
Some scenes really feel its overly bright even with 55nits calibrated, also ive never seen such white intensity, its really super white accross the whole screen with no tint whatsoever on the sides.
Also color depth/intensity and luminance is what separate this projector for me from everything else, i keep doing AB testing and colors are not even close even on my C6 oled , and it translates into most HDR scenes.
It is really a shame how DLPs went backward all these years, and its funny how we had projectors get close the bt2020 when we didnt have HDR and now most projectors barely hit p3 when HDR is almost everywhere.

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post #786 of 868 Old 06-25-2020, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Greyimporter View Post
I'd never buy a broken projector or one on it's last legs. I certainly wouldn't pay to get one repaired.

Most of the great deals I've had have been on high end projectors with very little use. Usually units that are still on their first bulb or led / laser ones that are less than 10% into their useful life.

A lot of high end projector's get bought for one-off projects. I've had a bunch of deals on really nice Barco projectors with less than 15 hours of total use. Plus, rich people will spend $50k or $100k on a HT projector just to watch an occasional movie.

High end projectors are often built like tanks and designed to work for 100,000+ hours 24/7. DLPs don't degrade like other tech. I've never had an issue with any of my high end projectors. I've had plenty of cheaper projectors break though. I had 3 cheap Epson LCD projectors (that I'd bought new) randomly die before I said never again.

I certainly can't be bothered for the hassle of making manufacturers honor a warranty. You have to send it away and wait for three months while they decide if it's your fault and tell you parts are out of stock. Then you find out you're not covered for the part that broke and it cost more than the projector's worth to replace it. They can keep their "support".

There is no need to trust a stranger with anything. If what arrives it not what was advertised than you get your money back through ebay or PayPal. Just ask plenty of questions and avoid sellers who act shady. We all know the sort. They say stuff like "selling As Is. I don't have the means to test it". Like it's really hard to press "on" and find an HDMI source...

I could literally replace my used projector 30 times for the price of a new one...
That is true, these high end projectors are built to last. All of my Digital Projection projectors and my current runco are build like tanks. My brother got a Optoma Uhl55 4k LED projector and it's made out of cheap plastic. Ebay does project its customers
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post #787 of 868 Old 06-25-2020, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
The performance of the m150 after trying it with many movies is just outstanding.
I m not really liking dynamic black much, its really subtle and changes color temp in a visible way and i dont feel its needed anyway so i keep it off.
Some scenes really feel its overly bright even with 55nits calibrated, also ive never seen such white intensity, its really super white accross the whole screen with no tint whatsoever on the sides.
Also color depth/intensity and luminance is what separate this projector for me from everything else, i keep doing AB testing and colors are not even close even on my C6 oled , and it translates into most HDR scenes.
It is really a shame how DLPs went backward all these years, and its funny how we had projectors get close the bt2020 when we didnt have HDR and now most projectors barely hit p3 when HDR is almost everywhere.
Hear! Hear!

So strange about the m150s dynamic black though... The m40s dynamic black is superb. I did incorrectly mention previously, however, that the blank function blanked the leds regardless of settings, but I was watching something in higher ambient light the other day and turned DB off, hit blank, and the leds remained on. It was astounding though how vibrant and detailed the image was with 20fl and the native gamut, I set the brightness up over the black level(or grey rather) of the screen, set the gamma to 2.0, and used the lti sharpener. Very watchable high ambient light projection.

Have you been using the frame interpolation any more?

We're on the cusp of amazing dlp just give it a few more years. I think the Eclipse was a real eye opener for alot of people.
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post #788 of 868 Old 06-25-2020, 12:33 PM
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The NX9 also has larger color space compared to the Sony, higher contrast and DTM. Looks pretty compelling to me.
Hmmm, I expect the first point will only be with the colour filter in place, thereby reducing lumens, whereas there is no drop in lumens for its full colour output on the Sony. The contrast is only higher on the NX9 over 1.5% ADL (per Arrows measurements) and hopefully DTM will be coming. But as we are constantly reminded there are others ways to get (possibly) superior DTM if that doesn't happen.
Also don't underestimate the massive advantage of a solid state light source. I see no micro flicker at all and I can't see myself going back to UHP. The colours and brightness are addictive. Also the instant on /off and huge lifespan of solid state also help cement its dominance over UHP in my view.
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post #789 of 868 Old 06-25-2020, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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I see no micro flicker at all and I can't see myself going back to UHP.
It is also interesting that Sim2 was able to reduce or even eliminate uhp bulb flicker from the HDR Duo. I would guess it was done through power supply improvements
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post #790 of 868 Old 06-25-2020, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
The performance of the m150 after trying it with many movies is just outstanding.
I m not really liking dynamic black much, its really subtle and changes color temp in a visible way and i dont feel its needed anyway so i keep it off.
Some scenes really feel its overly bright even with 55nits calibrated, also ive never seen such white intensity, its really super white accross the whole screen with no tint whatsoever on the sides.
Also color depth/intensity and luminance is what separate this projector for me from everything else, i keep doing AB testing and colors are not even close even on my C6 oled , and it translates into most HDR scenes.
It is really a shame how DLPs went backward all these years, and its funny how we had projectors get close the bt2020 when we didnt have HDR and now most projectors barely hit p3 when HDR is almost everywhere.
Hear! Hear!

So strange about the m150s dynamic black though... The m40s dynamic black is superb. I did incorrectly mention previously, however, that the blank function blanked the leds regardless of settings, but I was watching something in higher ambient light the other day and turned DB off, hit blank, and the leds remained on. It was astounding though how vibrant and detailed the image was with 20fl and the native gamut, I set the brightness up over the black level(or grey rather) of the screen, set the gamma to 2.0, and used the lti sharpener. Very watchable high ambient light projection.

Have you been using the frame interpolation any more?

We're on the cusp of amazing dlp just give it a few more years. I think the Eclipse was a real eye opener for alot of people.
I contacted sim2 and they confirmed that DB on the m150 is tamed a little bit with no fade to black shutting off the LEDs, i guess like u said from the criticism they got from the DB on the mico50.
Its really not needed though , black level is pretty good without it.
I do use puremotion on low and its like watching out of a window really, silky smooth motion.
I was reading ArrowAV review about the eclipse and these colors and he is absolutely right! I m telling you everyone think they are getting red color on their screen until they see bt2020 red color, my jvc red which can do 91% p3 look like a shade of orange next to the m150 red, and its the same with blue, even my oled is not close to these colors .

I bet any new dlps in this league will cost an arm and a leg to get it lol
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post #791 of 868 Old 06-25-2020, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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I bet any new dlps in this league will cost an arm and a leg to get it lol
The Chinese UST rgb laser projectors that are coming out have ~100% bt2020 and cost $10k. They do 1500 calibrated lumens consuming about 400w. The ht9060s gamut is suprisingly inferior to 10yo leds, but maybe its due to the brightness, similarly at 1500 lumens using 400w.

120hz frame interpolation with rgb dlp really sounds like it would work very well lol
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post #792 of 868 Old 06-25-2020, 02:15 PM
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The Chinese UST rgb laser projectors that are coming out have ~100% bt2020 and cost $10k. They do 1500 calibrated lumens consuming about 400w. The ht9060s gamut is suprisingly inferior to 10yo leds, but maybe its due to the brightness, similarly at 1500 lumens using 400w.

120hz frame interpolation with rgb dlp really sounds like it would work very well lol
what chinese projector can hit 100% bt2020 ?

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post #793 of 868 Old 06-25-2020, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
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what chinese projector can hit 100% bt2020 ?
https://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blo...is-de-gregory/

These Micos are Chi Lin OEMs as well ;] US dmd, Belgian leds, Chinese production, Italian refinement.
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post #794 of 868 Old 06-25-2020, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Hmmm, I expect the first point will only be with the colour filter in place, thereby reducing lumens, whereas there is no drop in lumens for its full colour output on the Sony. The contrast is only higher on the NX9 over 1.5% ADL (per Arrows measurements) and hopefully DTM will be coming. But as we are constantly reminded there are others ways to get (possibly) superior DTM if that doesn't happen.
Also don't underestimate the massive advantage of a solid state light source. I see no micro flicker at all and I can't see myself going back to UHP. The colours and brightness are addictive. Also the instant on /off and huge lifespan of solid state also help cement its dominance over UHP in my view.
I see no fluctuation with my light source. I do not buy into, there being a big advantage to the image, just because it is laser. Laser just dims slower. I owned the RS4500 for a year and now own the RS3000. Would love to have a blind shootout where people try to pick the laser projector out. Use the RS3000 and the VW885. Both calibrated and brightness matched. Would need to limit the content so that you did not have fade to black or real dark content, to give away which is which. Show one and then immediately the other. I think in that type of setting it would be very hard to tell which is which.
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post #795 of 868 Old 06-25-2020, 03:30 PM
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I see no fluctuation with my light source. I do not buy into, there being a big advantage to the image, just because it is laser. Laser just dims slower. I owned the RS4500 for a year and now own the RS3000. Would love to have a blind shootout where people try to pick the laser projector out. Use the RS3000 and the VW885. Both calibrated and brightness matched. Would need to limit the content so that you did not have fade to black or real dark content, to give away which is which. Show one and then immediately the other. I think in that type of setting it would be very hard to tell which is which.
Well I can tell, with my own eyes, that my laser projector has the most rock solid and stable image I have had bar on a TV. But, with the 'easy on the eye' benefits of a reflected image.
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post #796 of 868 Old 06-25-2020, 04:15 PM
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Show one and then immediately the other. I think in that type of setting it would be very hard to tell which is which.
It would be pretty neat to have that type of "blind" study event that showcases these projectors. You/AVS should host an event like that. My guess is that people would be very interested in a show like that.

EDIT: I suppose you should think of doing it only after it's considered safe and sanctioned to hold such an event in light of the Coronavirus pandemic.

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post #797 of 868 Old 06-25-2020, 05:45 PM
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Hear! Hear!


We're on the cusp of amazing dlp just give it a few more years. I think the Eclipse was a real eye opener for alot of people.
Well one of the things with DLP projection that people should talk more about is its ability to produce very bright images. The brightness mated to that Eclipse tech must be one heck of a good recipe.

I recall, my Runco three chipper even in low lamp produces over 1400 lumens. When I went back and watched on my JVC NX7 in the comparable lamp settings, the NX7's brightness almost looked anemic in comparison to the Runco's!
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post #798 of 868 Old 06-25-2020, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
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I recall, my Runco three chipper even in low lamp produces over 1400 lumens. When I went back and watched on my JVC NX7 in the comparable lamp settings, the NX7's brightness almost looked anemic in comparison to the Runco's!
I cant remember if it was the first or second eclipse demo, i thought it was the second at 70 nits, and people described bright scenes as squinting look away bright.
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post #799 of 868 Old 06-30-2020, 09:25 AM
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Sim2 Grand Cinema HT5000E

Got my Sim2 Grand Cinema HT5000E working again this week. In its day it was their flagship model ($50K). It gave me some problems 2 or 3 years ago, and instead of paying Sim2 the repair fee, I just stopped using it and retired it to my HT closet. Last week I decided to delve into its problems and try to fix it. It turns out I only had to seat/reseat a few internal connectors a few times, and it's working fine again.

Had to recruit some help to move this beast back into the home theater to watch it, but it was well worth it. I had forgotten just how sharp and accurate this thing is. It's got an old lamp in it so I can only get about 50nits, but it's very watchable. A new lamp would work wonders. Looks fabulous on SDR material, and with the help of the Radiance Pro's DTM it looks fabulous on HDR as well. Dynamic tone mapping wasn't around when I retired this projector. Also, downscaling 4K to 1080p looks great too.

Now I'm in a pickle. Too many projectors. HA! There are worse problems to have.
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post #800 of 868 Old 06-30-2020, 09:54 AM
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DTM is a huge game changer. If you have the capability to incorporate that feature then a lot of the older units are amazing in reference to the DLP landscape. I think most would agree that resolution is not the #1 driver in terms of picture quality. With great optics and excellent downscaling resolution I believe is a non-issue with these high quality units.
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post #801 of 868 Old 06-30-2020, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Shame those 3chippers are so expensive to produce, Lumis AR with DTM would be a great option for hdr. That native contrast of the sim2 light path has to look amazing by itself, add in the 5x dynamic dimming and the ARs color filter for p3 and youd have a real nice hdr image. Would match jvc at 1% adl and 4x the contrast at 3% adl.
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post #802 of 868 Old 06-30-2020, 11:07 AM
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Got my Sim2 Grand Cinema HT5000E working again this week. In its day it was their flagship model ($50K). It gave me some problems 2 or 3 years ago, and instead of paying Sim2 the repair fee, I just stopped using it and retired it to my HT closet. Last week I decided to delve into its problems and try to fix it. It turns out I only had to seat/reseat a few internal connectors a few times, and it's working fine again.

Had to recruit some help to move this beast back into the home theater to watch it, but it was well worth it. I had forgotten just how sharp and accurate this thing is. It's got an old lamp in it so I can only get about 50nits, but it's very watchable. A new lamp would work wonders. Looks fabulous on SDR material, and with the help of the Radiance Pro's DTM it looks fabulous on HDR as well. Dynamic tone mapping wasn't around when I retired this projector. Also, downscaling 4K to 1080p looks great too.

Now I'm in a pickle. Too many projectors. HA! There are worse problems to have.
Hi Robert. You still should see a high contrast projector when used with the Radiance. The Sim2 probably does a better job with HDR than the LK970, when paired with the Radiance.
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post #803 of 868 Old 06-30-2020, 11:14 AM
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Shame those 3chippers are so expensive to produce, Lumis AR with DTM would be a great option for hdr. That native contrast of the sim2 light path has to look amazing by itself, add in the 5x dynamic dimming and the ARs color filter for p3 and youd have a real nice hdr image. Would match jvc at 1% adl and 4x the contrast at 3% adl.
I heard the Lumis AR was pretty good, but that's from Sim2. But I don't completely trust them. It does look good on paper though. You can import one from the UK, but do you have $68k USD?

Like this one.

https://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/sim2-fuoriserie

It was over $100k but wasn't much better than the SuperLumis.

I can't find anyone, on any sites, even the UK AVForum site where an actual owner of one spoke about the Lumis AR.
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post #804 of 868 Old 06-30-2020, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I heard the Lumis AR was pretty good, but that's from Sim2. But I don't completely trust them. It does look good on paper though. You can import one from the UK, but do you have $68k USD? I can't find anyone, on any sites, even the UK AVForum site where an actual owner of one spoke about the Lumis AR.
Ya I'm curious about the light loss from the filter. This is the gamut from a Lumis 3d-s which doesn't mention any filter.


As mentioned recently, the projector does about 1500 calibrated lumens, has a ~6000:1 native contrast ratio, 30,000:1 dynamic contrast ratio which is done with both lamp dimming and an auto iris. The contrast curve should look fairly similar to the HDR Duo, though the duo has 3-5x the light output.

That msrp is steep... lol... I'd imagine dealer price was a bit lower but still quite expensive. But if you can find a used one for 2-4k? That's an amazing projector for that price.
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post #805 of 868 Old 06-30-2020, 11:44 AM
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Ya I'm curious about the light loss from the filter. This is the gamut from a Lumis 3d-s which doesn't mention any filter.


As mentioned recently, the projector does about 1500 calibrated lumens, has a ~6000:1 native contrast ratio, 30,000:1 dynamic contrast ratio which is done with both lamp dimming and an auto iris. The contrast curve should look fairly similar to the HDR Duo, though the duo has 3-5x the light output.

That msrp is steep... lol... I'd imagine dealer price was a bit lower but still quite expensive. But if you can find a used one for 2-4k? That's an amazing projector for that price.
I don't know where you find the Lumis range for $2-4K used. There's an HT-5000E for $15K from Russia NIB NOS. Then there's a C3x 1080p 3d for $16k. A C3xlite 720p sells in the $2-4k used range. The only modern Sim2 with the quality of a Lumis you can get for under $4K on a regular basis is the Sim2 Nero 3d-2. But the Neros aren't Lumis light cannons and would only support a max screen of ~120".
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post #806 of 868 Old 06-30-2020, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't know where you find the Lumis range for $2-4K used. There's an HT-5000E for $15K from Russia NIB NOS. Then there's a C3x 1080p 3d for $16k. A C3xlite 720p sells in the $2-4k used range. The only modern Sim2 with the quality of a Lumis you can get for under $4K on a regular basis is the Sim2 Nero 3d-2. But the Neros aren't Lumis light cannons and would only support a max screen of ~120".
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sim2-C3XLUM...EAAOSwYoFeimGm

The Nero 3d-2 is a single chip projector though? And what color wheel it has, does it have the lamp dimming + auto iris? I wonder what the actual specs are.
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post #807 of 868 Old 06-30-2020, 12:15 PM
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sim2-C3XLUM...EAAOSwYoFeimGm

The Nero 3d-2 is a single chip projector though? And what color wheel it has, does it have the lamp dimming + auto iris? I wonder what the actual specs are.
You might have to talk to UMR about that one. He owns one and really likes his.
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post #808 of 868 Old 06-30-2020, 01:24 PM
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Hi Robert. You still should see a high contrast projector when used with the Radiance. The Sim2 probably does a better job with HDR than the LK970, when paired with the Radiance.
Yes, with 3x.95” DarkChip4 chips and 6,000:1 on/off contrast it does indeed present a great detailed picture. And, it does it without a dynamic iris or any other dimming technique. Optical horsepower. It really shines with the Radiance DTM, a game changer for this projector.
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post #809 of 868 Old 06-30-2020, 05:28 PM
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Yes, with 3x.95” DarkChip4 chips and 6,000:1 on/off contrast it does indeed present a great detailed picture. And, it does it without a dynamic iris or any other dimming technique. Optical horsepower. It really shines with the Radiance DTM, a game changer for this projector.
Hi! It's been a while. I know we both had Lcos and DLP projectors. Of the Sony/JVCs I've had, only one had what I would call great convergence. I used to think certain DLP projectors had better line precision than Lcos only because they were single chip, but going by my 3 Chip Runco's convergence, I'm beginning to think three chip DLP too has excellent line precision not unlike their single-chip DLP counterparts.

It just seems like an oxymoron to want the sharpest image you can get but have it somewhat spoiled by subpar convergence/alignment of the three chips.

So, spill the beans. How is the convergence on your three chip DLP?
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post #810 of 868 Old 06-30-2020, 07:36 PM
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My HT5000E has virtually perfect convergence. I’ll post some pics tomorrow but I’ve got to get out a better camera than my phone to show how good it is.
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