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post #61 of 120 Old 02-23-2020, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
jack hi, it's hard to tell from the photo, is there breathing room on both sides of where your 750 is mounted? I could swap the Runco and the JVC, giving the Runco a bit more light but I decided to keep it this way since the JVC is the primary projector for critical viewing (UHD/HDR) and want to have as much gain as possible. The JVC is ~6" above eye level and is getting a ton of gain in that location.

last night I was watching BBC's One Planet on the Runco and fell asleep in the HT. When I woke up the projector had been running for 16+ straight hours from the previous day. It was nice not thinking about burning up the lamp hours. I primarily bought the 750 to use like a TV. Mission accomplished for only a few hundred dollars.

I also recently picked up this Viewsonic LS800WU laser projector with a .65 DC3 DMD for a fraction of it's current street price (~3K MSRP). These are rated at ~5000 lumens and can be D65 tamed to ~ 3100 lumens. I can't use this one in the HT since it has the typical extreme lens shift of some of the DLP's (very top or bottom location of screen) and will not work with my HP screen. I set this one up in my media room for TV viewing as well. it's very bright and can be used with ambient light. It looks surprisingly good considering it's designed for large venue use. native is ~1800:1 on the projector.



~120" dark beige painted wall with a room full of lights on. The sconces on the projected wall are turned off.



keep us posted on when the calibrator does his work on both projectors.
Turns out that moving the 750 down in the rack to improve the brightness is a problem because the rack has a rear support that prevents the Runco from going against the wall, so it won’t fit. However, the problem was solved when I realized that the HP is in the living room, not the video room. Duh! It’s hell getting old.

My LS-5($25 on CL) is showing on the HP. It cast a great picture which is very bright and great contrast. Much of that is due to the HP I believe. Since I am doing 90% of my watching in the video room I am tempted to swap the screens. I think the HP might make the 750 really come alive! I’d just have to figure out a way to make the Runco monster fit in the rack.

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post #62 of 120 Old 02-23-2020, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
here's a few screenshots of R709 content from youtube. This is about the perceived brightness at sitting distance with the projector about 1 foot above eye level. not too shabby for a 10+ year old projector taking a look at some HDR content and the expanded color capabilities sometime this weekend.
Oof I missed this post. How do you take such nice pictures... I have the camera abilities of ... I don't have photography abilities.

Have you fed the projector bluray material, even sdr, and not just youtube? XD Would like to hear your impressions with motion performance, sharpness, low level color, secondary shading(the hobbit[earth tones galore], the joker[cyan, magenta]). Are you using 4x or 8x dimming? Do you like adaptive contrast or is it too much clipping, since highlights are already clipped with the dimming its not really noticeable, but does crush out low level detail. And brilliant color as well, it's interesting how it will overlay the led cycles to make very pure secondaries, though color brightness suffers I believe.

Maybe you can clear something up for me as well. Turning the contrast setting down or using a nd filter to reduce light output? With the Mico, I'm having to reduce the contrast from 50 to at least 40 for normal sdr movies. It looks like it messes up the clipping patterns though, so I was planning on getting a nd filter, either 1 stop or 1/2 stop. Ill get a little lower black level that route as well. But turning the contrast setting down does reduce the max light output and power usage as well(i.e. 270w to 220w). I feel like highlights in darker scenes suffer though.

These are the settings I used on the Mico. Lower peak/dynamic targets result in a similarly way too bright picture. I'm utter novice with the HDR stuff, but it looked very good, and when I tested the sdr copy afterwards the HDR was a clear winner, detail, highlights, color, contrast, fantastic.
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post #63 of 120 Old 02-24-2020, 07:29 AM
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BTW, earlier today I saw it mentioned that some Marantz projectors had the self calibration capability. Does the 15S1 have it?
Yes, it did come with the O. R. C. A. color correction system. It is a cap that you fit over the lens for correcting white balance.
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post #64 of 120 Old 02-24-2020, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Yes, it did come with the O. R. C. A. color correction system. It is a cap that you fit over the lens for correcting white balance.
thanks Mike Do you know if there was anything special about the cap?

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post #65 of 120 Old 02-24-2020, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by bdht View Post
Oof I missed this post. How do you take such nice pictures... I have the camera abilities of ... I don't have photography abilities.

Have you fed the projector bluray material, even sdr, and not just youtube? XD Would like to hear your impressions with motion performance, sharpness, low level color, secondary shading(the hobbit[earth tones galore], the joker[cyan, magenta]). Are you using 4x or 8x dimming? Do you like adaptive contrast or is it too much clipping, since highlights are already clipped with the dimming its not really noticeable, but does crush out low level detail. And brilliant color as well, it's interesting how it will overlay the led cycles to make very pure secondaries, though color brightness suffers I believe.

Maybe you can clear something up for me as well. Turning the contrast setting down or using a nd filter to reduce light output? With the Mico, I'm having to reduce the contrast from 50 to at least 40 for normal sdr movies. It looks like it messes up the clipping patterns though, so I was planning on getting a nd filter, either 1 stop or 1/2 stop. Ill get a little lower black level that route as well. But turning the contrast setting down does reduce the max light output and power usage as well(i.e. 270w to 220w). I feel like highlights in darker scenes suffer though.

These are the settings I used on the Mico. Lower peak/dynamic targets result in a similarly way too bright picture. I'm utter novice with the HDR stuff, but it looked very good, and when I tested the sdr copy afterwards the HDR was a clear winner, detail, highlights, color, contrast, fantastic.
Hi, i'm starting to look at different SDR/HDR material. I was watching Oblivion BD the other day (still one of the sharpest BD's out there) and some UHD content with a 4K DI (Mortal Engines, amazing UHD HDR movie, one of the sharpest out there). I can run the 4x or the 8x and not really seeing any obvious artifacts. I think tuning the greyscale from the hardware level really made a difference here. the stepping / color shift was noticeable when I was tweaking the RGB gains prior to the hardware changes.

The adaptive contrast is a no-go, too much clipping. Plus it's not really needed with MadVR which does a much better job. I wouldn't use the contrast to bring down the brightness, you alway wants the greyscale ramps to display throughout the entire range. I would pick up the ND filters you mentioned.

For the MadVR settings, the dynamic target should be lower than the peak luminance range. try 100 and see how it looks.
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post #66 of 120 Old 02-24-2020, 08:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I can run the 4x or the 8x and not really seeing any obvious artifacts. I think tuning the greyscale from the hardware level really made a difference here. the stepping / color shift was noticeable when I was tweaking the RGB gains prior to the hardware changes.
Very cool. So there were two separate color artifacts with the dimming, one was an overall red push, one was a red/green flashes. You don't see the latter either? I have a picture of the h9090s interior and it has that color sensor as well, I may have to try making some adjustments if that's the case.

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I wouldn't use the contrast to bring down the brightness, you alway wants the greyscale ramps to display throughout the entire range. I would pick up the ND filters you mentioned.
gotcha thank you. I worry the 1 stop will be too dim.. so $250 4" x 6" 1/2 stop Schneider filter here I come!

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For the MadVR settings, the dynamic target should be lower than the peak luminance range. try 100 and see how it looks.
So that was what I tried first, say for instance, 50 peak, 50 dynamic, was way too bright. Just raising peak reduced the brightness, but left the image looking... off, I'm not sure how to describe it I haven't spent too much time with this yet, just a little back and forth on some of the settings. So I put the peak down to 150 and as I started raised the dynamic, the image darkened to a comfortable level, and that off look went away, maybe low contrast/overdriven is a good way to describe it, because now it looks very high contrast.

I was watching 6 underground last night and played with it a little more, turned dynamic back down, tried raising peak, but same effect. Went back to those settings, actually peak 200 for that movie, and the end result is an intensely HDR image that Ive been very suprised by.

Turning off contrast recovery would do something similar, the picture didnt look right, turning off highlight recovery made shadow detail very poor. Turning down sky strength made the image look very over sharpened/processed. I haven't tried explosions, shadow recovery, or the m1/2 stuff yet though.
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post #67 of 120 Old 02-25-2020, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Yes, it did come with the O. R. C. A. color correction system. It is a cap that you fit over the lens for correcting white balance.
Mike,

I cannot find anything in the 15S1 manual that speaks to O.R.C.A. There is nothing in the accessories list except a plain lens cap; no serial cable which seems to be the way it makes the adjustments. I googled it and there were discussions about it on the 12 series, but nothing on the 15.

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post #68 of 120 Old 02-25-2020, 10:35 AM
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Zombie, Brian,

I'm trying to get my mind around this mechanical adjustment of the rgb balance vs. using the gain controls in calibration. What is the reasoning for doing it with the hardware instead of the software?

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post #69 of 120 Old 02-25-2020, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Zombie, Brian,

I'm trying to get my mind around this mechanical adjustment of the rgb balance vs. using the gain controls in calibration. What is the reasoning for doing it with the hardware instead of the software?
Using the color sensor board allows the rgb gains to be left at 100, and then the dynamic dimming functions better.
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post #70 of 120 Old 02-25-2020, 10:49 AM
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Zombie, Brian,

I'm trying to get my mind around this mechanical adjustment of the rgb balance vs. using the gain controls in calibration. What is the reasoning for doing it with the hardware instead of the software?
from my observations it led to reduced artifacts when the LED dimming is engaged. I would still recommend seeing how far it off from the factory. RGB gains are 100 by default, if the calibration only has to lower it 10-15 points, I wouldn't touch the hardware controls. especially since they aren't direct RGB and will require some patience to get it perfect.

on mine, it was way off and needed -50+ on red gain making me think something was wrong with the other LED's. That led to noticeable shifts in color when the LED's were dimming and noticed the artifacts reduced as I got closer to keeping the menu RGB at 100% for each value.

I really can't see it working at all now. the black floor is more convincing than my Planar 8150 with the mechanical DI.
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post #71 of 120 Old 02-25-2020, 11:01 AM
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Very cool. So there were two separate color artifacts with the dimming, one was an overall red push, one was a red/green flashes. You don't see the latter either? I have a picture of the h9090s interior and it has that color sensor as well, I may have to try making some adjustments if that's the case.

gotcha thank you. I worry the 1 stop will be too dim.. so $250 4" x 6" 1/2 stop Schneider filter here I come!

So that was what I tried first, say for instance, 50 peak, 50 dynamic, was way too bright. Just raising peak reduced the brightness, but left the image looking... off, I'm not sure how to describe it I haven't spent too much time with this yet, just a little back and forth on some of the settings. So I put the peak down to 150 and as I started raised the dynamic, the image darkened to a comfortable level, and that off look went away, maybe low contrast/overdriven is a good way to describe it, because now it looks very high contrast.

I was watching 6 underground last night and played with it a little more, turned dynamic back down, tried raising peak, but same effect. Went back to those settings, actually peak 200 for that movie, and the end result is an intensely HDR image that Ive been very suprised by.

Turning off contrast recovery would do something similar, the picture didnt look right, turning off highlight recovery made shadow detail very poor. Turning down sky strength made the image look very over sharpened/processed. I haven't tried explosions, shadow recovery, or the m1/2 stuff yet though.

I was only seeing the red push during lower APL scenes when I was first trying to track down the issue. You are correct these LED projectors do have really nice color ability in the lower APL scenes, nice and clean with good shadow detail.

Do you have a general idea of how many actual NITS you are working with? Is the MadVR projector gamma setting matching what you have in the projector?



I'd be curious to hear how it looks once you have the ND filter and ~120 for and ~100 for dynamic.
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post #72 of 120 Old 02-25-2020, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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You are correct these LED projectors do have really nice color ability in the lower APL scenes, nice and clean with good shadow detail.
It's stunning, especially low apl scenes with little black and when there's alot of movement, like the rescue mission at the begining of Captain Marvel.

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Do you have a general idea of how many actual NITS you are working with? Is the MadVR projector gamma setting matching what you have in the projector?
Oof, I can get a $10 light meter and try to get an idea? I've seen measurements ranging from 490lumens to 660 lumens. The projector is very close to the screen, ~9', so about 85"diag 16:9. My screen(xy screen black crystal 0.8) is rated at 0.8 gain, if I remember correctly I compared light output(with an i1d3 and hcfr) to a studiotek100 sample and it was about 70-75% as bright, so I believe the gain is fairly accurate.

So I would estimate around 20fl or 70nits. Which I guess could range anywhere from 16fl/55nits to 24fl/82nits.

Gamma in madvr and the projector are set to 2.2. Though I don't have a fully blacked out space, and I do most viewing in low ambient light. I can try and explain it all but the short of it is dark grey screen, no direct light hitting the screen, screens black level is lower than the projector, i.e. I can clearly see the projectors glow and cast a much darker shadow even with lights on.

I do have the calibration set to p3 for movies that say p3, and switched it to bt2020 once for a movie that only said bt2020.

--Watching Captain Marvel last night, the movie was significantly dimmer than Midway and 6 Underground and I needed to set the peak nits to 70. But the again changing dynamic nits to 50-100(and/or putting peak up to balance) gave the image a strange look and I found myself wanting to change back to 250-300.

So maybe that was the correct brightness and those other movies were very bright? Though I've felt even with SDR alot of these Disney movies, doctor strange, solo, etc., are very dim and always wanted extra brightness. The uhd blu ray review for captain marvel said "the image takes on a dark look overall". And I've seen alot of people say they use 3 brightness level profiles for HDR material.

Separately, I did try turning on explosions but didn't do any comparison. And also shadow recovery, which seemed to brighten up low level detail in bright scenes.

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I'd be curious to hear how it looks once you have the ND filter and ~120 for and ~100 for dynamic.
I had thought for HDR, I would want max light output and wouldn't use the filter?

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post #73 of 120 Old 02-26-2020, 11:48 AM
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I measured my older Optoma HD90 LED DLP without the Radiance Videoprocessor and got a 91% of DCI Colorspace.
(*with the Radiance i got 97% of DCI P3 Colorspace)

The Gamma was set on 2.4 on the Projector and i got a avg deltaE of 1.3 for this old unit.

Native Contrast: 1200:1
Dynamic Black 1: 4000:1
Dynamic Black 2: 14000:1
Dynamic Black 3: LED shuting off completly.

On Dynamic Black Modes i have to reduce the red bias to -1 / -2.


I recalibrate the HD90 internal LED Sensors via Service Menu with my external Konica Minolta CL200 Chroma Meter.

BR, Ron
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post #74 of 120 Old 02-26-2020, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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@RoNNy379CH did you happen to measure the gamma with dynamic black on?
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post #75 of 120 Old 02-26-2020, 12:48 PM
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@RoNNy379CH did you happen to measure the gamma with dynamic black on?
Yes,

but without the Radiance ist not possible to keep the 6500k colortemp on track. The Optoma have no 21pt grayscale calibration like my Radiance.

I can try to set the Gamma on the Optoma from 2.4 to 1.8 and remeasure the results.
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post #76 of 120 Old 02-26-2020, 01:02 PM
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Yes,

but without the Radiance ist not possible to keep the 6500k colortemp on track. The Optoma have no 21pt grayscale calibration like my Radiance.

I can try to set the Gamma on the Optoma from 2.4 to 1.8 and remeasure the results.
This run was with a Gamma 2.2 and an Offset +3
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post #77 of 120 Old 02-27-2020, 12:19 PM
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The color temp it boots up with on the Runco screen ends up being the base greyscale. mine was off the charts bad to the point where I thought the blue and green LED's were shot. I would have him check it at 6500 and 7500 to see which is closer to D65. if the red gain only has to go down to around 85 -90 (from base 100), I wouldn't bother with the hardware tuning.

in my case, I was shocked at the huge impact those controls had on the greyscale. it's perfect D65 after cold boot now. I used a jewelers flat head screw driver for the tuning. The calibrator may not feel comfortable popping the lid and making these changes. I had nothing to lose and went for it and what a big surprise it turned out to be.



Are you running this projector in a stack with the JVC? I have a 3 tier shelf mount behind my HT chairs that now has the JVC RS600, Q750 and the Sharp 30K 3D DLP. A nice mix of some very cool projectors all with their own unique strengths.



I had my 750 calibrated a few months ago (after waiting two years from the last calibration) and the calibrator (Kevin Miller) said there was a big change and there was a blue push. He used the two point adjustment plus the PCE to get everything perfect but the red high is now at 80 (was 100 or so). Do you think it's worth fiddling with the sensor? I was under the impression the led's don't drift but after three calibrations in five years I find that there's always some drift.
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post #78 of 120 Old 02-27-2020, 09:35 PM
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I had my 750 calibrated a few months ago (after waiting two years from the last calibration) and the calibrator (Kevin Miller) said there was a big change and there was a blue push. He used the two point adjustment plus the PCE to get everything perfect but the red high is now at 80 (was 100 or so). Do you think it's worth fiddling with the sensor? I was under the impression the led's don't drift but after three calibrations in five years I find that there's always some drift.
hi, it's possible that the sensor drifts and that may explain why it has the adjustment dials on it. I would only recommend it if the calibrator is ok with taking off the projector case and has a steady handy for minute adjustments. a 1/4 turn of one of the dials will make a large color change. I had to make very small adjustments. Thankfully I was able to do it in real time as I was continuously measuring a 100% IRE screen during the tuning.
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hi, it's possible that the sensor drifts and that may explain why it has the adjustment dials on it. I would only recommend it if the calibrator is ok with taking off the projector case and has a steady handy for minute adjustments. a 1/4 turn of one of the dials will make a large color change. I had to make very small adjustments. Thankfully I was able to do it in real time as I was continuously measuring a 100% IRE screen during the tuning.

Thanks...probably not something he's willing to do. It sounds like it could be worst so i'll leave it be.
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post #80 of 120 Old 03-01-2020, 05:35 PM
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here's a few screenshots of R709 content from youtube. This is about the perceived brightness at sitting distance with the projector about 1 foot above eye level.

not too shabby for a 10+ year old projector taking a look at some HDR content and the expanded color capabilities sometime this weekend.







Looks great. I just bought my 4th LED high end DLP. I keep selling them for 4x to 5x what I got them for. Got a Runco Q750 for $350. I'm already using a Digital Projection M-Vision Cine 260hb, which is great and I got that for $300 as well. I even got a RS4910 that needs to be repaired that I got for $100.
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Looks great. I just bought my 4th LED high end DLP. I keep selling them for 4x to 5x what I got them for. Got a Runco Q750 for $350. I'm already using a Digital Projection M-Vision Cine 260hb, which is great and I got that for $300 as well. I even got a RS4910 that needs to be repaired that I got for $100.
is that the guy from Florida that didn't want to ship? I tried to convince him to ship but he didn't want to a few weeks ago. The one I picked up for not much more has the hard to find short throw lens which works perfect 17' from the 142".

Do you have any of the other LED's there now or sold them?
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post #82 of 120 Old 03-01-2020, 06:38 PM
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is that the guy from Florida that didn't want to ship? I tried to convince him to ship but he didn't want to a few weeks ago. The one I picked up for not much more has the hard to find short throw lens which works perfect 17' from the 142".

Do you have any of the other LED's there now or sold them?
That's the same guy. I told him that ups or FedEx will package for him securely for only $20. He felt better shipping it since he was having a hard time selling it. Works out for me.

I had both the DPI LED 600 and 1000. Then, I had the Vivitek LED version. All had the short throw lens expect this new Runco. I just got a 10ft wide scope screen, so the Runco will be just for 16:9 material. Must say the scope screen is amazing
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post #83 of 120 Old 03-01-2020, 06:44 PM
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Looks great. I just bought my 4th LED high end DLP. I keep selling them for 4x to 5x what I got them for. Got a Runco Q750 for $350. I'm already using a Digital Projection M-Vision Cine 260hb, which is great and I got that for $300 as well. I even got a RS4910 that needs to be repaired that I got for $100.

Blee, what's wrong with the RS4910? I have an RS4910 but had a very strong red/magenta push. As per Menronix in consultation with JVC, the only way to repair was to replace the optical block. Does your RS4910 have a good optical block? PM me please.
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post #84 of 120 Old 03-01-2020, 06:52 PM
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I had both the DPI LED 600 and 1000. Then, I had the Vivitek LED version. All had the short throw lens expect this new Runco. I just got a 10ft wide scope screen, so the Runco will be just for 16:9 material. Must say the scope screen is amazing
Yeah, the prices for these beauties are ridiculous now. And the three chipper lamp ones... you should see what the three chip Runcos, Sim2s/Lumis/Super Lumis are going for now. It's crazy given their original MSRP.

I'm using a dual DLP set up myself, which includes a three chipper and I'm thrilled!!!
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post #85 of 120 Old 03-01-2020, 06:58 PM
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Yeah, the prices for these beauties are ridiculous now. And the three chipper lamp ones... you should see what the three chip Runcos, Sim2s/Lumis/Super Lumis are going for now. It's crazy given their original MSRP.

I'm using a dual DLP set up myself, which includes a three chipper and I'm thrilled!!!
DLPs are great. They get a bad rep because JVC excel in movie watching but that is much more than only watching movies
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Yeah, the prices for these beauties are ridiculous now. And the three chipper lamp ones... you should see what the three chip Runcos, Sim2s/Lumis/Super Lumis are going for now. It's crazy given their original MSRP.

I'm using a dual DLP set up myself, which includes a three chipper and I'm thrilled!!!
did you pick up something new?
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did you pick up something new?
No, at least not yet.
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This Runco has been getting quite a workout running for 12-14 hours during several days of an audio calibration I just finished. It's awesome to be able to use it like a TV.

When I was cleaning it a few weeks ago, I was measuring temps around the internals to see where the hot spots are. I noticed a lot of heat building up in the area where the orange highlight is. The power supply, fan controller boards and several others are packed in there. I ended up installed a 92MM Noctua fan and run it at full speed since they are so quiet compared to the factory fans. Now those PCB's are running much cooler and should help extend the life of the projector. I'll post a photo of how I mounted it next time I open the projector.

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My DPI M-Vision bulb projector gets hot, just my previous LED DPI ran cool. When I get home later tonight, I'm going to finally fire my Q750 up to compare it to my DPI.
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post #90 of 120 Old 03-08-2020, 12:33 PM
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This Runco has been getting quite a workout running for 12-14 hours during several days of an audio calibration I just finished. It's awesome to be able to use it like a TV.

When I was cleaning it a few weeks ago, I was measuring temps around the internals to see where the hot spots are. I noticed a lot of heat building up in the area where the orange highlight is. The power supply, fan controller boards and several others are packed in there. I ended up installed a 92MM Noctua fan and run it at full speed since they are so quiet compared to the factory fans. Now those PCB's are running much cooler and should help extend the life of the projector. I'll post a photo of how I mounted it next time I open the projector.

Does your photo show the new fan?

Jack
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