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post #91 of 120 Old 03-08-2020, 11:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Gonna respond here since its probably off topic for the improving and settings threads

Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
The real nits should be static, the dynamic target nits should be adjusted to what looks right.
I keep going back and trying a lower peak around 60-70 nits(which I believe is the actual light level off the screen) when I would normally find myself using 150-250 and adjusting dynamic but can never get a comfortable brightness level. Dynamic nits too high(over300) crushed shadow detail, too low under 100 and the image doesn't look right. So I keep settling back around 150-200 dynamic and set peak nits to the content. Might have something to do with the projectors dimming, idk

Watched Mortal Engines and settled on 220 peak nits. I tried cranking highlight and shadow recovery up and it looked cool, but then watched Wonder Woman(peak 180) and I felt highlight recovery looked overprocessed and maybe the black level did look increased, I dont remember if the movie had alot of muted shadows in SDR, but I turned highlight down to high and shadows to medium. Something still didnt look right(like gamma compression maybe in alot of the daytime scenes in the beginining of the movie) so I changed hill height to 0 and 100 and that seemed to fix it. But then watching Ready Player One(peak 150), went back to 15/30 hill height and had alot of trouble getting shadow detail/dark scenes to look right, were very dim. No setting combination could really adjust it though.
Idk... I need to read through the improving thread now that I have bit of an understanding of all these settings and see what the comparisons between setting values were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Disable color tweaks.
Hmm with color tweaks I felt on looked closer to the sdr copy, without it its much like using desaturate where alot of color is turned white.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Shadow recover will raise the black level in some instances, maybe lower that to low.
I see ill keep an eye out for that. I thought I noticed improved shadow detail in brighter scenes with that on. Though low seemed to show less shadow detail in darker scenes?
-I thought a lower sky stength setting looked over-processed but it might have been something else, so many settings! Dx.
-Same with Hill/log strong thought it looked over processed and lost alot of shadow detail. Neo xp high looked good I couldn't see much of a difference to log conservative. Hill Strong looked natural as well.
-Havent tried adjusting the m1 settings, dynamic clipping, no comp limit, avghighlights, or max width yet
-I use 2d ssim downscaling, scale chroma separately, error diffusion 1, no colored noise.

The majority of my viewing is done in a low ambient light setting(darker grey screen no direct light hitting the screen) and having a little trouble with HDR getting shadow detail/low level scenes right for this setup between the led dimming and ambient light, where for SDR a 2.0 gamma in the projector works well. Actually for SDR with the sim2 and the current room setup it's the first time I've been satisified with ambient light projections black level and low apl content. HDRs tricky though I know optimally you want ultra high contrast/brightness and a light free environment.
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post #92 of 120 Old 03-11-2020, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
here's a few screenshots of R709 content from youtube. This is about the perceived brightness at sitting distance with the projector about 1 foot above eye level.

not too shabby for a 10+ year old projector taking a look at some HDR content and the expanded color capabilities sometime this weekend.







I was not expecting the size of this projector to be so large. But it throws a beautiful picture.
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post #93 of 120 Old 03-11-2020, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
here's a few screenshots of R709 content from youtube. This is about the perceived brightness at sitting distance with the projector about 1 foot above eye level.

not too shabby for a 10+ year old projector taking a look at some HDR content and the expanded color capabilities sometime this weekend.




What are you using to convert HDR to SDR. I'm using the UB820 to downconvert to 1080p SDR R709. I haven't been able to get expanded color pallet to work with 1080p.


Most 4k discs look pretty good but there's definately room for improvement.
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post #94 of 120 Old 03-11-2020, 07:04 PM
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Consider this EZCOO splitter for down-scaling and HDR management. It works like a charm and is dirt cheap. Also available in 4 port.

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post #95 of 120 Old 03-11-2020, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabeg244 View Post
What are you using to convert HDR to SDR. I'm using the UB820 to downconvert to 1080p SDR R709. I haven't been able to get expanded color pallet to work with 1080p.


Most 4k discs look pretty good but there's definately room for improvement.
Believe he is using MadVR on his HTPC, which I am using as well on my Q750
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post #96 of 120 Old 03-11-2020, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
Believe he is using MadVR on his HTPC, which I am using as well on my Q750

I'll have to look into it. You're happy with the results?
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post #97 of 120 Old 03-11-2020, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabeg244 View Post
I'll have to look into it. You're happy with the results?
I was going to get a LED/ laser pixel shifting 4k DLP projector until I stumbled across this deal. The is probably no DLP projector with pixel shifting under $5,000 that can come close. I know the Benq 9060 is really good but I have not seen it. Since I'm using a scope screen, the Q750 will be used for 16:9 at 104in on a unity gain screen. Another option will be the Oppo 203 which has DTM but only at Rec. 709 which will work for our older DLP LED projectors.
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post #98 of 120 Old 03-11-2020, 11:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabeg244 View Post
I'll have to look into it. You're happy with the results?
Using madvr 113 on a sim2 mico and yes happy with the results. These projectors are very hdr/uhd capable between the contrast, gamut, perceived brightness, and sharpness.
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post #99 of 120 Old 03-12-2020, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabeg244 View Post
What are you using to convert HDR to SDR. I'm using the UB820 to downconvert to 1080p SDR R709. I haven't been able to get expanded color pallet to work with 1080p.

Most 4k discs look pretty good but there's definitely room for improvement.
hi, I am using MadVR. One of the issues with the 750 is while there are color profiles that can hit the P3 primaries, the saturation tracking isn't great and wide color gamut doesn't look right. This can be resolved with a 3D lut (processed through MadVR) and currently working on the calibration.

my other projector is a JVC RS600 and it has near perfect P3 tracking. MadVR + UHD content looks amazing on this projector so I have a good frame of reference. I'll post details when it's completed.
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post #100 of 120 Old 03-12-2020, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
One of the issues with the 750 is while there are color profiles that can hit the P3 primaries, the saturation tracking isn't great and wide color gamut doesn't look right. This can be resolved with a 3D lut (processed through MadVR) and currently working on the calibration.
I was wondering about this. Before measuring for the 3dlut, do you need to make any adjustments in the cms like increasing yellow saturation to hit the green p3 hue, or will the 3dlut on the native gamut be ok?

When I initially tried it I measured off the screen and am unfamiliar with the settings in displaycal so using the lut resulted in a very dim dull picture. Been a bit busy to try again but been trying to figure out what I need to do exactly before remeasuring. All I know to try differently first though is measuring off the lens and possibly getting the meter(i1d3) calibrated.

Last edited by bdht; 03-12-2020 at 01:27 PM.
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post #101 of 120 Old 03-12-2020, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
hi, I am using MadVR. One of the issues with the 750 is while there are color profiles that can hit the P3 primaries, the saturation tracking isn't great and wide color gamut doesn't look right. This can be resolved with a 3D lut (processed through MadVR) and currently working on the calibration.

my other projector is a JVC RS600 and it has near perfect P3 tracking. MadVR + UHD content looks amazing on this projector so I have a good frame of reference. I'll post details when it's completed.
I have a long calibration session this weekend with my new screen. Now I have to calibrate all 3 of my projectors, RS2000/N7, Runco Q750, and DPI 260HB. Interested to see how my Spyder X performs but have my ipro2 for color. Should be fun. I'll be following how yours turn out
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post #102 of 120 Old 03-18-2020, 11:32 PM
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Is the Digital Projection Cine 230 HC a good projector?
Is the DP 260 HB about just as good if you disable brilliant color?

I can't find much information about these.

The 230 HC has a DC4 while the 260 HB has a DC3?

How would these do for gaming? I'm looking for an old cheap DLP that's super sharp, but with plenty of brightness. These old projectors have much larger DLP chips that are 0.95" instead of 0.65" like the Benq ht2150st?
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post #103 of 120 Old 03-19-2020, 01:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
Is the Digital Projection Cine 230 HC a good projector?
Is the DP 260 HB about just as good if you disable brilliant color?

I can't find much information about these.

The 230 HC has a DC4 while the 260 HB has a DC3?

How would these do for gaming? I'm looking for an old cheap DLP that's super sharp, but with plenty of brightness. These old projectors have much larger DLP chips that are 0.95" instead of 0.65" like the Benq ht2150st?
I believe the 230 hc is a 0.95 dmd rgbrgb wheel projector. The specs say 1000 lumens 3k contrast

The 260 hb is a 3chip 0.67 dmd projector(no wheel) and the 260hc has a dynamic iris. The specs say 3500 lumens and 2k contrast for the hb and 2000 lumens 20k dynamic contrast for the hc.

These projectors usually have 16ms input lag but I cant say for sure. They generally have lower bulb life though.

The 3chip models would make for a real nice picture, though the .95dmd with the nicer lenses vs something like the benq is a nice uptick in picture quality aswell.

You may also want to consider the Barco/Projectiondesign f30/32/35 or DPI D-Vision 35 as they have very nice lenses and can get very bright due to the dual lamps, though noise heat and power consumption are an issue.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post

You may also want to consider the Barco/Projectiondesign f30/32/35 or DPI D-Vision 35 as they have very nice lenses and can get very bright due to the dual lamps, though noise heat and power consumption are an issue.
Where do you find these? The only readily available one is the DP 260 HB.

The cheapest Cine 230 HC go for about $2,500, and usually don't even have a remote.
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post #105 of 120 Old 03-19-2020, 02:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
Where do you find these? The only readily available one is the DP 260 HB.

The cheapest Cine 230 HC go for about $2,500, and usually don't even have a remote.
ebay

https://www.ebay.com/itm/324092047773

https://www.ebay.com/itm/163768352787

https://www.ebay.com/itm/133360260636

looks like there are alot of those tekswamp remotes cheap too
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post #106 of 120 Old 03-19-2020, 02:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
Does the 5 seg CW of the 260 make that much of a difference from the 6 seg in the 230?
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post #107 of 120 Old 03-19-2020, 04:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
Is the Digital Projection Cine 230 HC a good projector?
Is the DP 260 HB about just as good if you disable brilliant color?

I can't find much information about these.

The 230 HC has a DC4 while the 260 HB has a DC3?

How would these do for gaming? I'm looking for an old cheap DLP that's super sharp, but with plenty of brightness. These old projectors have much larger DLP chips that are 0.95" instead of 0.65" like the Benq ht2150st?
I'm not sure about the difference in the DDR darkchip of the 230 vs 260HB for they should be the same. I would not call them old cheap projectors because they were not produced that way. The newer DLP projectors are made cheap compared to the older high end DLPs. They were built like tanks with big sharp lenses and larger chips. They are extremely sharp and the Digital Projection projectors have expanded color gamut. I have owned many Digital Projection projectors and I somehow find a way to get them for good deals. I owned the 260HC and on my second 260 HB. I also owned the Cine LED 600 and 1000. They do make very good sharp projectors.

Last edited by blee0120; 03-19-2020 at 04:17 AM.
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post #108 of 120 Old 03-19-2020, 04:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
I believe the 230 hc is a 0.95 dmd rgbrgb wheel projector. The specs say 1000 lumens 3k contrast

The 260 hb is a 3chip 0.67 dmd projector(no wheel) and the 260hc has a dynamic iris. The specs say 3500 lumens and 2k contrast for the hb and 2000 lumens 20k dynamic contrast for the hc.

These projectors usually have 16ms input lag but I cant say for sure. They generally have lower bulb life though.

The 3chip models would make for a real nice picture, though the .95dmd with the nicer lenses vs something like the benq is a nice uptick in picture quality aswell.

You may also want to consider the Barco/Projectiondesign f30/32/35 or DPI D-Vision 35 as they have very nice lenses and can get very bright due to the dual lamps, though noise heat and power consumption are an issue.

The 260 HB and 260 HC are single chip 0.95 dmd projectors.
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post #109 of 120 Old 03-19-2020, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
Is the Digital Projection Cine 230 HC a good projector?
Is the DP 260 HB about just as good if you disable brilliant color?

I can't find much information about these.

The 230 HC has a DC4 while the 260 HB has a DC3?

How would these do for gaming? I'm looking for an old cheap DLP that's super sharp, but with plenty of brightness. These old projectors have much larger DLP chips that are 0.95" instead of 0.65" like the Benq ht2150st?
Hello, i have DPI M-vision 260 I would get rid of. Newer lamp and tekswamp remote.

The 260hb is a light cannon! I haven't seen nor owned anything brighter including my Runco vx-22 three chipper.
Sharp? Check!
Placement friendly? Check
Color? Okay
Blacks? mediocre (with "adaptive contrast" on)
Granted, I haven't taken any measurements for color correction nor black levels. Just eye test.
The colors reproduced are probably more "natural" then say may Infocus x10 but doesn't have the same "POP."

In addition, i love my older dlp .95 chip projectors. In fact, i owned a Panasonic pt-ae8000u and Sony vpl-hw40 and sold them both for a older 2009 Runco. I have seen but not owned a jvc, yet don't feel a desire to switch anytime soon.

You may pm me if you like.
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post #110 of 120 Old 03-19-2020, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
The 260 HB and 260 HC are single chip 0.95 dmd projectors.
The M-Vision 1080p-260 is 0.95 but the M-Vision Cine 260 is 3x 0.67 right?

M-Vision 1080p-260
https://www.projectorcentral.com/pdf..._spec_5035.pdf

M-Vision Cine 260
https://www.projectorcentral.com/pdf..._spec_5779.pdf
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post #111 of 120 Old 03-19-2020, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
The M-Vision 1080p-260 is 0.95 but the M-Vision Cine 260 is 3x 0.67 right?

M-Vision 1080p-260
https://www.projectorcentral.com/pdf..._spec_5035.pdf

M-Vision Cine 260
https://www.projectorcentral.com/pdf..._spec_5779.pdf
I was thinking only of the M-Vision series projectors. The other is the Highlite series. The 230, 260hc, and 260hb are all M-Vision. But you are correct
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post #112 of 120 Old 03-19-2020, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
I was thinking only of the M-Vision series projectors. The other is the Highlite series. The 230, 260hc, and 260hb are all M-Vision. But you are correct
O ok I see, has to say Highlite for the 3chip projectors. That mvision cine 260 is 1x .95 rgbyw wheel(hb 3500 lumens, 2k contrast; hc 2000 lumens, 3k contrast), the cine 230 is rgbrgb 1000lumens 3k contrast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
Does the 5 seg CW of the 260 make that much of a difference from the 6 seg in the 230?
The difference is going to be in the luminance at certain saturation levels, like he said "pop". If you're used to the color performance of 3chip lcos youll probably notice it and want to stick with rgbrgb wheels or find a 3chip dlp projector. The 3chip projector should provide an even better experience with gaming due to the complete lack of rbe and flicker, very smooth motion and resolved video ;] Otherwise the lens of the pd/barco/dvision projectors would probably make for a nicer image than the single chip/uhp bulb dpi projectors.

What size screen and gain would you be using? Do you need 3-4000 lumens?
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post #113 of 120 Old 03-19-2020, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post

What size screen and gain would you be using? Do you need 3-4000 lumens?
A little over 1? I just use PPG Diamond Flat Enamel White Interior paint.

My space is 13 x 16.5 feet.

I would like the biggest image that would fit, and allow a 900 lumen 9w lamp to be on.

Before I was projecting a 96x72 inch screen from a CRT projector until my blue neckboard fried.

My CRT looked fine with no lights on, but was too washed out with the lamp.
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post #114 of 120 Old 03-19-2020, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
A little over 1? I just use PPG Diamond Flat Enamel White Interior paint. My space is 13 x 16.5 feet. I would like the biggest image that would
it, and allow a 900 lumen 9w lamp to be on. Before I was projecting a 96x72 inch screen from a CRT projector until my blue neckboard fried. My CRT looked fine with no lights on, but was too washed out with the lamp.
Hmm, with ambient light I've felt like the better color performance of 3chip projectors or rgb solid state fights ambient light better then throwing massive extra lumens and sacrificing color performance, which just looks uncomfortably bright, direct light washes out low level detail anyway, and then color has less pop. There have been a few instances when using high ambient light and watching anime / playing games where the increased saturation of the leds works really well and doesn't look horribly oversaturated and incorrect like when watching movies/tv in the dark/low ambient light.

The motion performance of 3chip/3rgb has been incredibly satisfying compared to color wheels. Of course the 3chip projectors are more expensive and the bulbs dont have a very long life and use more power, dump more heat, and most of the led projectors if you can find them are dimmer. The Vivitek H9090 and DPI Cine LED 1000 at 700 lumens is surprisingly bright though, I find myself using less than 10fl for high apl content in high ambient light.

But if you wanted to go crazy you could use something like a Highlite Cine 660 and a really low gain matte dark grey or gain boosted black, which would probably do well in fighting ambient light ;] At least in this case where you have direct light hitting the screen contrast is less important
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-Pro...YAAOSwYTBeLluK
https://www.projectorcentral.com/Dig..._1080p-660.htm
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Originally Posted by bdht View Post
Hmm, with ambient light I've felt like the better color performance of 3chip projectors or rgb solid state fights ambient light better then throwing massive extra lumens and sacrificing color performance, which just looks uncomfortably bright, direct light washes out low level detail anyway, and then color has less pop. There have been a few instances when using high ambient light and watching anime / playing games where the increased saturation of the leds works really well and doesn't look horribly oversaturated and incorrect like when watching movies/tv in the dark/low ambient light.

The motion performance of 3chip/3rgb has been incredibly satisfying compared to color wheels. Of course the 3chip projectors are more expensive and the bulbs dont have a very long life and use more power, dump more heat, and most of the led projectors if you can find them are dimmer. The Vivitek H9090 and DPI Cine LED 1000 at 700 lumens is surprisingly bright though, I find myself using less than 10fl for high apl content in high ambient light.

But if you wanted to go crazy you could use something like a Highlite Cine 660 and a really low gain matte dark grey or gain boosted black, which would probably do well in fighting ambient light ;] At least in this case where you have direct light hitting the screen contrast is less important
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-Pro...YAAOSwYTBeLluK
https://www.projectorcentral.com/Dig..._1080p-660.htm
Thank for the advice. I think I'll just have to wait for a good deal on a Digital Projection Cine 230 HC.

My CRT was doing 104x58.5 inch when doing 16:9 movies. That'd be fine. ~26.6 Ft/L on a new bulb and 11.8 Ft/L when it needs to be replaced.

Does the 230 HC really go for usually 4 times the the 260 HB? Or is that current one for higher than normal?
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post #116 of 120 Old 03-19-2020, 05:17 PM
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Thank for the advice. I think I'll just have to wait for a good deal on a Digital Projection Cine 230 HC.

My CRT was doing 104x58.5 inch when doing 16:9 movies. That'd be fine. ~26.6 Ft/L on a new bulb and 11.8 Ft/L when it needs to be replaced.

Does the 230 HC really go for usually 4 times the the 260 HB? Or is that current one for higher than normal?
These are discontinued projectors, so it depends on the seller. if a seller bought the projector for $10,000 new, that person can sell it for whatever they feel is best. But the 230 and the 260 cost similar new.
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
These are discontinued projectors, so it depends on the seller. if a seller bought the projector for $10,000 new, that person can sell it for whatever they feel is best. But the 230 and the 260 cost similar new.
I know about the first part, but I was just confirming that they cost similar new. Therefore I'm willing to wait. I couldn't find the cost of the 260 anywhere, but I saw the 230 was ~$7,000 new. Which is why I asked. With ebay you get people who think just because new it's X they can maybe even get more. Hey it's only human nature to try and milk something for as much as possible.
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post #118 of 120 Old 03-19-2020, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
I know about the first part, but I was just confirming that they cost similar new. Therefore I'm willing to wait. I couldn't find the cost of the 260 anywhere, but I saw the 230 was ~$7,000 new. Which is why I asked. With ebay you get people who think just because new it's X they can maybe even get more. Hey it's only human nature to try and milk something for as much as possible.
A lot of people buy them cheap knowing there value and wait months until someone buys it.
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post #119 of 120 Old 03-21-2020, 05:43 AM
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The main reason these old DLPs are worth cash is because no manufs (other than $$$ Barco) have stepped up to the plate and properly leveraged the current tech as they feel the market is too small to be worth the investment. It's very much doable with current tech to outperform some of these old DLPs but manufs are favoring simplicity and cost saving over more complex mechanisms that could achieve similar contrast results @ higher res/brightness.

https://www.barco.com/en/product/bragi%20cinemascope

Last edited by Ruined; 03-21-2020 at 05:48 AM.
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post #120 of 120 Old 03-21-2020, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
The main reason these old DLPs are worth cash is because no manufs (other than $$$ Barco) have stepped up to the plate and properly leveraged the current tech as they feel the market is too small to be worth the investment. It's very much doable with current tech to outperform some of these old DLPs but manufs are favoring simplicity and cost saving over more complex mechanisms that could achieve similar contrast results @ higher res/brightness.

https://www.barco.com/en/product/bragi%20cinemascope
I think the problem is for dlp contrast is still dependent on lamp dimming, which means lower brightness. For resolution you have to use a larger dmd which means a better lens which increases cost, and with led/laser an even better lens to avoid chromatic abberation.

For dlp I think we really just have to wait for the 2chip 2tir prism designs, and at that we might see affordable massive quantum dot micro led before that happens Dx Though that doesnt help acoustically transparent screens much.

I wonder if 2chip sequential rgb laser is possible? That would at least save costs vs 6chip.
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