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post #1 of 64 Old 10-10-2019, 11:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Older High End DLP LED

In case anyone is interested, I tried to compile some information on these projectors from reading reviews and threads and talkin with people in pms. These things are older and getting rare but they're very unique projectors and I think still very relevant in terms of video performance, really incredible color performance and great contrast for DLP.
See this post: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post58991694

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Considering trying to find an older high end LED DLP for under $2000.

Runco Q750
Barco FL33
Vivitek h9090/9080 though i don't know if I have the throw for this one.

I have a short throw of about 1.4 to 1.5.

I really like the look of DLP and the lower heat output of the led projector would be welcome(small room). Would like to see DLP with better contrast. I have a 92" screen so not concerned with light output.

These projectors can do dci p3 color as well? Can madvr take a uhd blu ray and output 1080p with the higher color to the projector?

Last edited by bdht; 12-22-2019 at 02:37 PM.
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post #2 of 64 Old 10-11-2019, 04:40 AM
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Any of those units would be high quality for your needs. I would look for a Barco or PD FL35 as well. It is a little brighter than the 33 and has higher resolution. It also has a lens option that will suit your needs.

For P3 you possible could do a custom LUT with MadVR to get close to the color performance you are looking for I would think.


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Originally Posted by bdht View Post
Considering trying to find an older high end LED DLP for under $2000.

Runco Q750
Barco FL33
Vivitek h9090/9080 though i don't know if I have the throw for this one.

I have a short throw of about 1.4 to 1.5.

I really like the look of DLP and the lower heat output of the led projector would be welcome(small room). Would like to see DLP with better contrast. I have a 92" screen so not concerned with light output.

These projectors can do dci p3 color as well? Can madvr take a uhd blu ray and output 1080p with the higher color to the projector?

Is this feasible?
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post #3 of 64 Old 10-11-2019, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Well digging a little deeper it looks like the q750s minimum throw is 1.59 so I don't think that will fit. The Runco LS3, 5, 7 and marantz vp-11s2 wont fit. I couldn't find any barco/projectordesign/digital projection led projectors for sale. This listing had the en13 lens and got my hopes up https://www.ebay.com/itm/FL33-BARCO-...-/273787532793

Couldn't find the sharp xv-30000 for sale, and i dont think the samsung sp-a900b will fit.

How about the Barco/PD/DP Dvision 30/35, F32/35, Cineo32/35. Quite a few around under $1000 with the en13 lens, would just have to get new bulbs. They're bright though, 3000 to 6000 lumens? Maybe get a new screen like a .1gain black o.o and would probably have to enclose it and exhaust into the attic... Or does it use both bulbs for the high output? so maybe one bulb in eco might be ok?

I can't seem to find any more detailed information on these besides the manufacturer's website and projectorcentral.

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post #4 of 64 Old 10-12-2019, 06:54 AM
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post #5 of 64 Old 10-12-2019, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by descalabro View Post
have you considered the Sim2 MICO 60?
I had not, thanks!

But at 25" deep with a minimum 1.5 throw it wont fit, Ive only got 11' from the screen to the back wall. Keepn it logged in case something changes though xD

There is the Sim2 Nero 3 Plus ST though that would work.
https://www.projectorcentral.com/SIM2-NERO3_PLUS_ST.htm

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post #6 of 64 Old 10-12-2019, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
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@12GAGE The lamp models that can do dci just have an rgbrgb color wheel correct? the barco/pd models are labeled vizsim, and the digital projection models XC and should have about 3000 lumens. Theres nothing else to look for with these correct?

https://www.projectorcentral.com/Dig...0_1080p_XC.htm
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post #7 of 64 Old 10-12-2019, 09:34 PM - Thread Starter
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So when considering these Barco/Projector Design/Digital Projection DVision/F 30/32/35 for use with madvrs hdr to sdr conversion, should brightness or color be prioritized? The versions I believe are dci/3k lumens(XC or VizSim), rec709/5k lumens(XB or Graphics), and a higher 7k lumens model(XL or High Brightness) which I'm unsure of the gamut. For HDR it sounds like brightness should be a priority, however, when using with SDR sources, the brighter projector would be significantly too bright? SDR material would either need a black screen or separate projector, correct?

Maybe its better to steer towards the XC/VizSim, use a single lamp for SDR, and utilize the larger color gamut for UHD material?
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post #8 of 64 Old 10-13-2019, 06:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
I had not, thanks!

But at 25" deep with a minimum 1.5 throw it wont fit, Ive only got 11' from the screen to the back wall. Keepn it logged in case something changes though xD

There is the Sim2 Nero 3 Plus ST though that would work.
https://www.projectorcentral.com/SIM2-NERO3_PLUS_ST.htm
Well, for the MICO 60, there's always the old mirror trick to increase the throw range within the same distance.

The Nero 3 looks like an awesome option for your small room. I don't know much about the technicalities of all the things you've been asking so far, but I'd say a recent projector would be more qualified to achieve those results than those older PD models. The PD projectors have the advantage of an enormous vertical and horizontal lens shift, the sharpest lenses you can get, and some of them have an adjustable fixed iris to increase contrast at the expense of brightness (same idea as JVC projectors), but I wonder if they will have the performance you're hoping for. The Nero should be quieter and the LED light source will give you a much more stable light output, so you won't have to worry about that after calibration.

But, most of all, you should first worry about making your room entirely black, preferably using triple velvet. Otherwise, no amount of dynamic range will look satisfying in the room.
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post #9 of 64 Old 10-13-2019, 08:12 AM
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Those color wheels will be the closest. They provide very good color maybe not full DCI.


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Originally Posted by bdht View Post
@12GAGE The lamp models that can do dci just have an rgbrgb color wheel correct? the barco/pd models are labeled vizsim, and the digital projection models XC and should have about 3000 lumens. Theres nothing else to look for with these correct?

https://www.projectorcentral.com/Dig...0_1080p_XC.htm
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post #10 of 64 Old 10-13-2019, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by descalabro View Post
Well, for the MICO 60, there's always the old mirror trick to increase the throw range within the same distance.
I'm not familiar with this, what do you do put a mirror on the back wall and turn the projector around then angle the mirror down and have a second mirror angled at the screen? Would the mirror need to be in the middle of the screen?

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Originally Posted by descalabro View Post
I'd say a recent projector would be more qualified to achieve those results than those older PD models.
That's what I'm wondering. Picking up a dvision30 xc or pd f32 vizsim for $500(assuming they have the right lens and younger bulbs otherwise add another 500) seems like an interesting option. How would that compare to a ht3550 ht5550 or theo z65. Its a darkchip4 projector so Id imagine contrast is in between my w1070 and rs45, and it sounds like brightness and color gamut(contrast as well) would be better than the benq models. Some pages say it has a dynamic iris but I'm not sure if thats correct. @12GAGE did you have an F35? If so could you compare the contrast to the newer benq(you have the laser one correct?)
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Originally Posted by 12GAGE View Post
Those color wheels will be the closest. They provide very good color maybe not full DCI.
Some literature has said the rgbrgb wheels produce over 25% of ntsc, which would be over 70% rec709 which would be rec2020 correct?

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Originally Posted by descalabro View Post
But, most of all, you should first worry about making your room entirely black, preferably using triple velvet. Otherwise, no amount of dynamic range will look satisfying in the room.
Yup rooms treated and the screen can go blacker than my jvc rs45u in low lamp with the iris closed down.
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post #11 of 64 Old 10-13-2019, 04:39 PM
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I had an F35 Vizsim model. There is no dynamic iris just a manual iris. The FL35 Led unit has dynamic black. I changed out my F35 for a LK970. The LK970 has advantages in brightness and laser stability. The F35 had a better lens, better color and better contrast both ansi and on/off. I would look at a Theo Z65, but honestly however from a value perspective the older PD models are great. They are well built throw a good image and pretty reliable. The downsides are 2 bulbs per unit and the are fairly loud.





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Originally Posted by bdht View Post
I'm not familiar with this, what do you do put a mirror on the back wall and turn the projector around then angle the mirror down and have a second mirror angled at the screen? Would the mirror need to be in the middle of the screen?


That's what I'm wondering. Picking up a dvision30 xc or pd f32 vizsim for $500(assuming they have the right lens and younger bulbs otherwise add another 500) seems like an interesting option. How would that compare to a ht3550 ht5550 or theo z65. Its a darkchip4 projector so Id imagine contrast is in between my w1070 and rs45, and it sounds like brightness and color gamut(contrast as well) would be better than the benq models. Some pages say it has a dynamic iris but I'm not sure if thats correct. @12GAGE did you have an F35? If so could you compare the contrast to the newer benq(you have the laser one correct?)

Some literature has said the rgbrgb wheels produce over 25% of ntsc, which would be over 70% rec709 which would be rec2020 correct?


Yup rooms treated and the screen can go blacker than my jvc rs45u in low lamp with the iris closed down.
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post #12 of 64 Old 10-13-2019, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12GAGE View Post
I had an F35 Vizsim model. There is no dynamic iris just a manual iris. The FL35 Led unit has dynamic black. I changed out my F35 for a LK970. The LK970 has advantages in brightness and laser stability. The F35 had a better lens, better color and better contrast both ansi and on/off. I would look at a Theo Z65, but honestly however from a value perspective the older PD models are great. They are well built throw a good image and pretty reliable. The downsides are 2 bulbs per unit and the are fairly loud.
Thank you!! I've read the theo blogs and am looking forward to the calibration and second shootout they mentioned. I really like the look of DLP and trying out one of these old pd models sounds cool.

Question about the eco mode, on the spec sheet for the dvisions it says 5000 hours per lamp - automatic sync mode.
https://www.projectorcentral.com/pdf..._spec_4439.pdf

The Barco sheet calls it VIDI but reports 2,500hours
https://www.projectorcentral.com/pdf..._spec_8363.pdf

Do you happen to recall the light output? Do they always use 2 bulbs, or can you use 1 bulb and get 5000 hours per lamp in eco?

For power consumption the specs say max 1kw, I'd imagine that's both bulbs at full lamp power, any chance you know the power draw in eco? If I get one I can always hook it up to a kwm first, would have to install a dedicated circuit if its pulling 8amps all the time though. My screens only 92" so I only need about 500 lumens for SDR

I'd consider enclosing the unit and exhausting in to the attic too, so that'll cut down on the noise and heat.
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post #13 of 64 Old 10-13-2019, 06:59 PM
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I have a first generation DPI M Vision LED, ISCO III and slide I’d consider parting with.

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I have a first generation DPI M Vision LED, ISCO III and slide I’d consider parting with.
Isco iii?
This? https://www.projectorcentral.com/Digital_Projection-M-Vision_Cine_LED_1000.htm

I think the throws a little long, lowest is 1.56 and id need about 1.48

could you pm me your asking price?
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post #15 of 64 Old 10-13-2019, 07:26 PM
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ISCO III is an anamorphic lens. The I3 was considered the best back in the day.

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Those units are very flexible with the lamps. You can run both or just one. You also can dial down the intensity of the lamp with several different wattage settings (up to 300 watts) on both or either lamp. You could get 5000 hrs on a lamp under the right usage conditions in my opinion.



Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
Thank you!! I've read the theo blogs and am looking forward to the calibration and second shootout they mentioned. I really like the look of DLP and trying out one of these old pd models sounds cool.

Question about the eco mode, on the spec sheet for the dvisions it says 5000 hours per lamp - automatic sync mode.
https://www.projectorcentral.com/pdf..._spec_4439.pdf

The Barco sheet calls it VIDI but reports 2,500hours
https://www.projectorcentral.com/pdf..._spec_8363.pdf

Do you happen to recall the light output? Do they always use 2 bulbs, or can you use 1 bulb and get 5000 hours per lamp in eco?

For power consumption the specs say max 1kw, I'd imagine that's both bulbs at full lamp power, any chance you know the power draw in eco? If I get one I can always hook it up to a kwm first, would have to install a dedicated circuit if its pulling 8amps all the time though. My screens only 92" so I only need about 500 lumens for SDR

I'd consider enclosing the unit and exhausting in to the attic too, so that'll cut down on the noise and heat.
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post #17 of 64 Old 10-13-2019, 09:36 PM
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The Digital Projection M-Vision Cine LED projectors are great if you could find one for under $2000.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
I'm not familiar with this, what do you do put a mirror on the back wall and turn the projector around then angle the mirror down and have a second mirror angled at the screen? Would the mirror need to be in the middle of the screen?





.


You need only 1 good mirror on the back wall. If you place it vertically, it will simply extend the throw in the opposite direction, not affecting the angle in any way. If you need to tilt the projector down (for example, to place it higher), then you tilt the top of the mirror backwards the same degrees to compensate and get a straight image on the screen. Although check the manual to see if tilting the projector is an option. Finally, you set the projector to ceiling rear projection mode.


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4,3 x 2,8m semi-blacked out media room | 2010 MacMini > Pioneer VSX-520-K > JVC RS50 (X7) > 107", 1.1 gain, white screen | JVC X30 (RS45)
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post #19 of 64 Old 11-15-2019, 09:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Has anyone seen 1% to 20% adl contrast measurements for these projectors? I've only seen native, dynamic on off, and ansi measurements.

Last edited by bdht; 11-16-2019 at 09:25 PM.
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post #20 of 64 Old 11-18-2019, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Do all of these units have the same dimming function, however, Runco and Sim2 do the gamma correction in the projector? Is it possible to do the gamma correction with a 3d lut for the vivitek and dpi mvision units?
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post #21 of 64 Old 11-18-2019, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
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Has anyone seen 1% to 20% adl contrast measurements for these projectors? I've only seen native, dynamic on off, and ansi measurements.
It is the 1% to 5% that you should be concerned with. By the time we get higher than that, your eyes are biased by the brightness on the screen and all projectors, low ANSI and high ANSI, look about the same for contrast.
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It is the 1% to 5% that you should be concerned with. By the time we get higher than that, your eyes are biased by the brightness on the screen and all projectors, low ANSI and high ANSI, look about the same for contrast.
Right, I've seen the % of content adl graphs. When you look at projector dreams measurements for the benq dlp projectors, contrast changes very little from 1 to 10%, so I'm wondering if contrast behaves the same in the dynamic lamp mode.

There are alot of scenes where contrast goes way down on my jvc rs45, brighter scenes look very washed out, and if I dont mask the screen black bars really light up(this is independent of the rooms contrast as the rooms treated), whereas on a w1070, with a nd filter and in smart eco, contrast/black levels appear to stay the same through the majority of content.

Say if contrast is 1600 to 1300 for 1-5%, would dynamic be 4500 to 4000?. And with these led projectors that can do 10-20k on/off, would 1-5% be 10-15k at 1% to 5-10k at 5%? Or does it shoot right back down to native at 1%? ;]
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
Right, I've seen the % of content adl graphs. When you look at projector dreams measurements for the benq dlp projectors, contrast changes very little from 1 to 10%, so I'm wondering if contrast behaves the same in the dynamic lamp mode.

There are alot of scenes where contrast goes way down on my jvc rs45, brighter scenes look very washed out, and if I dont mask the screen black bars really light up(this is independent of the rooms contrast as the rooms treated), whereas on a w1070, with a nd filter and in smart eco, contrast/black levels appear to stay the same through the majority of content.

Say if contrast is 1600 to 1300 for 1-5%, would dynamic be 4500 to 4000?. And with these led projectors that can do 10-20k on/off, would 1-5% be 10-15k at 1% to 5-10k at 5%? Or does it shoot right back down to native at 1%? ;]
Kris Deering and Darin P spent a day comparing an older JVC against one of the highest ANSI contrast projectors made at the time (Samsung SP-A900B). They watched a lot of bright content and they were hard pressed to see any advantage in the higher ANSI contrast. Because as I said, the eye is so biased by the time you get into those higher ANSI scenes, the contrast looks good, even on low ANSI contrast projectors. If it didn't, nobody would buy JVC projectors. If the JVC looked washed out, then something else was going on, like the room was affecting the image or projector setup. I have viewed 100's of projectors and owned LCOS, SXRD, DLP and LCD.

There is not an LED projector on the market that can do 10k to 20k on/off contrast. That would be native contrast.
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post #24 of 64 Old 11-18-2019, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Kris Deering and Darin P spent a day comparing an older JVC against one of the highest ANSI contrast projectors made at the time (Samsung SP-A900B). They watched a lot of bright content and they were hard pressed to see any advantage in the higher ANSI contrast. Because as I said, the eye is so biased by the time you get into those higher ANSI scenes, the contrast looks good, even on low ANSI contrast projectors. If it didn't, nobody would buy JVC projectors. If the JVC looked washed out, then something else was going on, like the room was affecting the image or projector setup. I have viewed 100's of projectors and owned LCOS, SXRD, DLP and LCD. There is not an LED projector on the market that can do 10k to 20k on/off contrast. That would be native contrast.
Does 5-10% ADL mean ANSI contrast? I thought ANSI was 50% and less than 5% of video content is 20% to 50% ADL. Or is it an ansi image which is 50% input which makes it 22% adl? edit: Nvm, reread the pjdream stuff, an ansi image is still 50% output, but a 50% input gray is 22% output adl. I meant dynamic on/off for the LED projectors.

The room is treated, room reflections aren't affecting the increased black levels of brighter(5-10%?) scenes with the RS45, which is 8 years old now and probably doesnt have the light handling and convergence capabilities of the newer models. I can cast a very dark shadow over the black bars in those brighter scenes in high lamp with the iris open, and I can watch the black levels raise and lower significantly as ADL changes. I don't know how the setup would affect that, I set levels with avs clipping patterns and have hdmi levels set correctly... In those situations, the black levels do not change with the W1070, but black levels in low apl scenes with the RS45 are much darker than the w1070, and contrast in normal lamp with the iris closed is outrageous through the whole adl range and works really great for bright content like anime/cartoons, etc. The measurements seem to confirm those observations.

JVC X500
1%: 7000
5%: 2800
10%: 1600

JVC NX9(dynamic)
1%: 16000
5%: 1900
10%: 1200

JVC NX9(native)
1%: 8600
5%: 2200
10%: 1100

BenQ W1070
1%: 1600
5%: 1300
10%: 1000

BenQ W2000
1%: 1600
5%: 1500
10%: 1300

Sim2 HDR DUO(native)
1%: 6000
5%: 4000
10%: 3000

Sim2 HDR DUO(dynamic)
1%: 21000
5%: 10000
10%: 6300

Most of the .95 DLP LED projectors measured dynamic on/off of 10-20k, native of 2-3k, but I have no idea what 1% to 5% looks like, all I can go off is how the W1070 looks in its dynamic mode, which appears to be around 4k from 1% to 5% ADL.

So I'm wondering, with these LED projectors is 1% to 5% the same as the native contrast, or does it benefit from the dynamic dimming like the W1070 and HDR DUO?

Last edited by bdht; 11-21-2019 at 02:55 PM.
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post #25 of 64 Old 11-24-2019, 01:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Could anyone comment on the visibility of the dynamic black and constant contrast systems in the sim2 mico 40-60s and the runco q750?


Also curious if the q750 lenses are different than the digital protection/vivitek lenses and show less convergence errors/chromatic aberration like the sim2 lenses. The fronts look different but have the same mounting plate I believe.

edit: same aberration as dpi/vivitek lenses
https://perfectimage.gr/2010/05/03/runco-q750i-full-review-part-ii/

Last edited by bdht; 11-24-2019 at 11:19 PM.
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post #26 of 64 Old 11-26-2019, 06:23 AM
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Currently using a q750i and love it. How do those Barco's (35, in particulary) compare. They look like pretty rugged little projectors that can be had for fairly little money...are they competitive in all the things we look for in home theater?
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post #27 of 64 Old 11-26-2019, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gabe Gordon View Post
Currently using a q750i and love it. How do those Barco's (35, in particulary) compare. They look like pretty rugged little projectors that can be had for fairly little money...are they competitive in all the things we look for in home theater?
The PD LED units seem to have been targeted more towards simulation than home theater.
http://www.cine4home.de/Specials/Pro...%20Preview.htm

Would like to pick your brain about the q750i though. What screen are you using? material, size, and gain. How is the black level and low apl contrast? How is the constant contrast setting? if you use it, what level do you use? Do you use the runco smart color feature? Have you ever tried making an sdr rec2020 3d lut for uhd content using madvrs hdr to sdr?
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post #28 of 64 Old 11-26-2019, 05:04 PM
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The reason the RS-45 looks a tad washed out in bright scenes is because of gamma calibration issues. You have to really fight the gamma on these older JVC's, most of them have some issue around 70-90 IRE. The later JVC's were improved, but not perfect in this area. Also, there are luminance calibration issues with JVC's that can affect bright scene contrast, some of these issues are quite complicated and beyond the topic of this conversation. Those two issues combining are what you are seeing. You can get around the issue with calibration to some degree, though it's going to be easier on a newer, rather than older JVC. The issues cannot be 100% completely resolved on a JVC RS-45, but I'd say about 70% or so resolved. Issues with Yellow luminance and saturation will conflict with gamma settings to the point of causing banding in certain scenes if you calibrate it flat based on a pure calibration graph. You have to make concessions.

Most DLP's have very predictable and smooth gamma tracking and fewer luminance issues, so not nearly as many calibration headaches. Though this isn't always the case, some DLP's like the UHZ-65 have their own calibration headaches which could be more difficult than even a JVC.

However, there are few to none when it comes to choices for LED DLP's with decent contrast. You are not going to find it.

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post #29 of 64 Old 11-26-2019, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
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The reason the RS-45 looks a tad washed out in bright scenes is because of gamma calibration issues. You have to really fight the gamma on these older JVC's, most of them have some issue around 70-90 IRE. The later JVC's were improved, but not perfect in this area. Also, there are luminance calibration issues with JVC's that can affect bright scene contrast, some of these issues are quite complicated and beyond the topic of this conversation. Those two issues combining are what you are seeing. You can get around the issue with calibration to some degree, though it's going to be easier on a newer, rather than older JVC. The issues cannot be 100% completely resolved on a JVC RS-45, but I'd say about 70% or so resolved. Issues with Yellow luminance and saturation will conflict with gamma settings to the point of causing banding in certain scenes if you calibrate it flat based on a pure calibration graph. You have to make concessions.
Definitely noticed the gamma issues and posterization when trying to correct it, I was able to get a good 2.2 curve that didnt crush dark areas and overdrive brighter stuff without banding. Black levels still went way up with the projector in high lamp and iris open though for anything Im guessing was 5-10% adl.

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However, there are few to none when it comes to choices for LED DLP's with decent contrast. You are not going to find it.
Native sure, but dynamic contrast on the sim2 mico50 and runco q750 is about 10-15k dynamic on/off with 1 pixel, 1% adl was measured at dynamic 7k on the mico50 so should be a bit higher on the runco due to the lower light output, and ansi at 600-900 and I believe that measurement was dynamic dimming on too, so I'd imagine the rest of the range looks pretty good, 2-3% being comparable to lcd/lcos and 4-5% could be better.

If I had a completely non reflective space and all viewing was done with the lights off, then it would be a difficult decison to sacrifice dila contrast for dlp video performance. Lucky for me I cant take advantage 20k+ 1% adl contrast and deep inky blacks but I can take advantage of low adl dynamic dlp contrast, good blacks, and get to enjoy the single chip dlp led imager, which is just astounding. Was watching the rollerball scene in alita the other day and it was so easy to focus on fast moving objects and everything is so sharp/resolved, high contrast, and colorful. Really amazing imaging technology its a shame it didnt take a hold of the market and stick around.
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post #30 of 64 Old 11-26-2019, 10:03 PM
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If you are viewing with lights on, then contrast doesn't matter, only brightness matters.

I would not invest that kind of expense into tech this old, but to each their own.
You're splitting hairs on contrast, for the most part, DLP contrast is DLP contrast, especially in a less than optimal room.

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