Projector for 190" Wide CIH 2.35:1 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 2Likes
  • 1 Post By coderguy
  • 1 Post By Mike Garrett
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 27 Old 12-05-2019, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
JustBusiness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 508
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Projector for 190" Wide CIH 2.35:1

I'm building a dedicated-ish theater room in my basement. Extensive details in my build thread here. After mapping out the screen on the wall, I think I'm done with the size. 190 x 80 (2.35:1), 160 x 80 for (16:9). I'll be using a Seymour Center Stage XD 1.0 gain screen. My throw distance has to be 20-22' (relatively short for this screen size). I want 40+ Foot Lamberts, since I will be using ambient lighting regularly. My content will probably lean toward 16:9, maybe 60/40 spread. I don't want to use a motorized anamorphic sled (money), and prefer to use Zoom method (realizes image quality/resolution, artifacts, and brightness will suffer in 2.35:1). I've been looking in to Digital Projection E-Vision's, but they're mostly 1920x1200 native resolution; otherwise they fit the bill. I'd really like a 1080p 3chip DLP that will work with the zoom method and lens memory, but I don't think they exist with the correct lens ratio (1.2-1.4).

Anything I'm missing? What suggestions does everyone have? I'm exclusively planning on a 1080p from the used market, likely with 4000+ lumens.

Here's some pictures:




JustBusiness is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 27 Old 12-06-2019, 07:34 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 27,255
Mentioned: 274 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13035 Post(s)
Liked: 10670
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Your atmos speakers are too wide. put them the same width apart as your mains.
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/sp...tup-guide.html
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #3 of 27 Old 12-06-2019, 09:57 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 17,111
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7490 Post(s)
Liked: 9093
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustBusiness View Post
I'm building a dedicated-ish theater room in my basement. Extensive details in my build thread here. After mapping out the screen on the wall, I think I'm done with the size. 190 x 80 (2.35:1), 160 x 80 for (16:9). I'll be using a Seymour Center Stage XD 1.0 gain screen. My throw distance has to be 20-22' (relatively short for this screen size). I want 40+ Foot Lamberts, since I will be using ambient lighting regularly. My content will probably lean toward 16:9, maybe 60/40 spread. I don't want to use a motorized anamorphic sled (money), and prefer to use Zoom method (realizes image quality/resolution, artifacts, and brightness will suffer in 2.35:1). I've been looking in to Digital Projection E-Vision's, but they're mostly 1920x1200 native resolution; otherwise they fit the bill. I'd really like a 1080p 3chip DLP that will work with the zoom method and lens memory, but I don't think they exist with the correct lens ratio (1.2-1.4).

Anything I'm missing? What suggestions does everyone have? I'm exclusively planning on a 1080p from the used market, likely with 4000+ lumens.
Look for a used Digital Projection 1080p 3 chip light cannon projector. Or maybe a Barco. Those projectors generally come with interchangeable lenses, so you can get one that works with your throw ratio. And switch that white carpet out for black.
Craig Peer is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 27 Old 12-06-2019, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
JustBusiness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 508
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Your atmos speakers are too wide. put them the same width apart as your mains.
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/sp...tup-guide.html
Hi Mike, thanks for commenting. The diagram is VERY outdated. I’ve made a few significant changes (moving bathroom door to wine room), no more DIYSG (well....subs maybe), and all Triad speakers. I don’t know what we’re going to do for ATMOS yet because my ceilings are a little low for direct radiator speakers up there. I’ve engaged an acoustic designer from this forum to help, because I quickly got in over my head!

Any suggestion on projector? I feel like the JVC aren’t bright enough for my size screen/lighting conditions. Or are prohibitively expensive. Blew my budget on the front LCR!
JustBusiness is offline  
post #5 of 27 Old 12-06-2019, 01:05 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
JustBusiness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 508
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Look for a used Digital Projection 1080p 3 chip light cannon projector. Or maybe a Barco. Those projectors generally come with interchangeable lenses, so you can get one that works with your throw ratio. And switch that white carpet out for black. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif[/IMG]
That was (might still be) the plan; however, I’d need to use a sled and a lens. I’m trying to avoid that. None of the 3 chip DP (I think) have a lens memory feature with the right motorized lens throw ratio for my space. I could get a color wheel model, but they’d likely be 1920x1200, so a fairly good compromise already.... but do I need it for brightness? (Like 5000-8000 lumen)?
JustBusiness is offline  
post #6 of 27 Old 12-06-2019, 01:15 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 27,255
Mentioned: 274 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13035 Post(s)
Liked: 10670
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustBusiness View Post
Hi Mike, thanks for commenting. The diagram is VERY outdated. I’ve made a few significant changes (moving bathroom door to wine room), no more DIYSG (well....subs maybe), and all Triad speakers. I don’t know what we’re going to do for ATMOS yet because my ceilings are a little low for direct radiator speakers up there. I’ve engaged an acoustic designer from this forum to help, because I quickly got in over my head!

Any suggestion on projector? I feel like the JVC aren’t bright enough for my size screen/lighting conditions. Or are prohibitively expensive. Blew my budget on the front LCR!
You really need a 3-chip DLP and an A-lens. If not wanting to use an A-lens, then an Epson 5050 or 6050. Hard to do a large low gain screen on a budget. You could also go with a BenQ LK970 or LK990. You would still need an A-lens.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #7 of 27 Old 12-06-2019, 02:13 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 17,111
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7490 Post(s)
Liked: 9093
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustBusiness View Post
That was (might still be) the plan; however, I’d need to use a sled and a lens. I’m trying to avoid that. None of the 3 chip DP (I think) have a lens memory feature with the right motorized lens throw ratio for my space. I could get a color wheel model, but they’d likely be 1920x1200, so a fairly good compromise already.... but do I need it for brightness? (Like 5000-8000 lumen)?
As long as they have power zoom and focus, you could easily make it work. I zoomed between scope and 16:9 with a Sim Lumis for 7 1/2 years without lens memory.
Craig Peer is online now  
post #8 of 27 Old 12-06-2019, 03:32 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
JustBusiness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 508
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
As long as they have power zoom and focus, you could easily make it work. I zoomed between scope and 16:9 with a Sim Lumis for 7 1/2 years without lens memory.
Did you do this with macros? I'm fine with coding my remote system with a macro if it will really work reliably. If my wife can't hit the button and it work...
JustBusiness is offline  
post #9 of 27 Old 12-06-2019, 03:37 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
JustBusiness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 508
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
You really need a 3-chip DLP and an A-lens. If not wanting to use an A-lens, then an Epson 5050 or 6050. Hard to do a large low gain screen on a budget. You could also go with a BenQ LK970 or LK990. You would still need an A-lens.
It seems I should've cut down my research and come to talk to you! That's exactly what I'm between. Read about Epson all evening last night and BenQ this morning. I'm leaning toward a 5050 or 6050, because of the budget. It seems like for $3k I can get a new projector, with support, 4K compatability, the brightness I need (well....2600...), and the lens memory. What do you think about the brightness on the Epson? I read that measure brightness is actually much higher than specifications (like 3000 on a white screen if I recall correctly).

To go 3 chip DLP would require the lens ($2-5k), plus a motorized sled ($500-1000), plus a used 3 chip ($2-3k)...ugh. If I could get a deal on a motorized one ready to go, I'd jump right on it.
JustBusiness is offline  
post #10 of 27 Old 12-06-2019, 04:31 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 17,111
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7490 Post(s)
Liked: 9093
I wouldn't want my wine cellar right next to my theater - too much vibration from war movies like " Fury " or " Hacksaw Ridge ".
Craig Peer is online now  
post #11 of 27 Old 12-06-2019, 04:32 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
dkersten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Billings, MT
Posts: 1,210
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 756 Post(s)
Liked: 1343
Gonna be an expensive projector that can throw 190" wide image at 40fL, especially on a sub 1.0 gain AT screen! That slips right into the "Large Venue" class of projectors, and that is out of my wheelhouse, so I can't provide much insight on how to achieve your goals. Ebay has some stuff that looks like it might work for around $5-10k, but I wouldn't want to spend that much on something with thousands of hours and no warranty...

Not sure on the math, but with a .97 gain screen, I would guess around 8-10k lumens to hit 40fL.

An Epson 5050/6050 might get you 17fL on your screen with a fresh lamp on the highest settings (with an awful picture). The laser DLP's with 5k+ lumens would get you over 20fL, and again that is not a calibrated projector, just one throwing as much light as it can. In either case, contrast will be terrible, especially with ambient light.

IMO, you either need a large pile of cash, a smoking hot deal on a used large venue light cannon with the right lens for your throw distance (and an A lens on a sled to go with it), a screen with a massive amount of gain (which usually costs large piles of cash), or a significantly reduced set of expectations. As things like this go, you get to pick one, and then double what you think it will cost.

Just for reference, I went "large" and it got expensive FAST. And my screen is around half the sq footage of what you are planning (mine is only 150" wide). I spent north of $15k for my projection setup with an a-lens, 150" wide AT screen (1.3 gain) and a 4k projector, and that gives me around 22-25fL. To get twice as much light on a screen twice as big will take some cheddar...
dkersten is offline  
post #12 of 27 Old 12-06-2019, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
JustBusiness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 508
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkersten View Post
Gonna be an expensive projector that can throw 190" wide image at 40fL, especially on a sub 1.0 gain AT screen! That slips right into the "Large Venue" class of projectors, and that is out of my wheelhouse, so I can't provide much insight on how to achieve your goals. Ebay has some stuff that looks like it might work for around $5-10k, but I wouldn't want to spend that much on something with thousands of hours and no warranty...

Not sure on the math, but with a .97 gain screen, I would guess around 8-10k lumens to hit 40fL.

An Epson 5050/6050 might get you 17fL on your screen with a fresh lamp on the highest settings (with an awful picture). The laser DLP's with 5k+ lumens would get you over 20fL, and again that is not a calibrated projector, just one throwing as much light as it can. In either case, contrast will be terrible, especially with ambient light.

IMO, you either need a large pile of cash, a smoking hot deal on a used large venue light cannon with the right lens for your throw distance (and an A lens on a sled to go with it), a screen with a massive amount of gain (which usually costs large piles of cash), or a significantly reduced set of expectations. As things like this go, you get to pick one, and then double what you think it will cost.

Just for reference, I went "large" and it got expensive FAST. And my screen is around half the sq footage of what you are planning (mine is only 150" wide). I spent north of $15k for my projection setup with an a-lens, 150" wide AT screen (1.3 gain) and a 4k projector, and that gives me around 22-25fL. To get twice as much light on a screen twice as big will take some cheddar...
This is great advice. I had been kicking around the idea of going cheap, and you’re right I’d be disappointed. I really shouldn’t cut down the quality to fit a budget I never really set, and will focus on getting what I want to meet my goals.

I’ve always been a plasma fan, and have 1080p and even 720p Hitachi Directors Series still up. I think I’m leaning toward a used light cannon with the right onboard lens. Then I can have the 16x9 brightness I want.

Here’s the issue with an A lens and a used DP projector though. It looks like Panamorph requires a 1.6+ throw ratio. Any 3 Chip DLP will need a throw ratio of 1.2-1.4 to fit in my planned wall location (not really moveable since there’s a structural steel pole there). So... what happens when a 1.33 A Lens gets tossed on a 1.2-1.4 ratio projector? Geometric issues that I can correct if the projector has the functionality? Or is this a non starter and it’s time to make compromises elsewhere?
JustBusiness is offline  
post #13 of 27 Old 12-06-2019, 08:48 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
JustBusiness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 508
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Been doing some thinking and math (poorly).

So, I want a 190” wide 2.35:1 screen. That will be 80” high. 1.78 x 80 = 142.4”. That’s the width for 16:9 content at a constant image height. So, with my throw distance being basically set at 240” max, the throw ratio would be 240/142.4” = 1.685. Then if I toss an A lens in front on a sled the width would be expanded 1.33x, to 190” (approximately). The entire time I’d be using the full capability/resolution of the projector assuming the chips resolution is 1920x1080.

Alternatively, if I were to use zoom method, my throw ratio would be 1.685 for 16x9 and (240/190=1.26). So I’d need a 1080p native projector with a lens ratio of 1.26-1.68 (more or less). Anyone know of 3 Chip DLP projector with a compatible Motorized zoom lens for this scenario? The DP Highlite and Titan don’t seem to fit the bill, and would only work with the first A lens scenario.

So, what are my A Lens options that have good motorized sleds built for them?
JustBusiness is offline  
post #14 of 27 Old 12-07-2019, 02:26 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 17,111
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7490 Post(s)
Liked: 9093
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustBusiness View Post
Been doing some thinking and math (poorly).

So, I want a 190” wide 2.35:1 screen. That will be 80” high. 1.78 x 80 = 142.4”. That’s the width for 16:9 content at a constant image height. So, with my throw distance being basically set at 240” max, the throw ratio would be 240/142.4” = 1.685. Then if I toss an A lens in front on a sled the width would be expanded 1.33x, to 190” (approximately). The entire time I’d be using the full capability/resolution of the projector assuming the chips resolution is 1920x1080.

Alternatively, if I were to use zoom method, my throw ratio would be 1.685 for 16x9 and (240/190=1.26). So I’d need a 1080p native projector with a lens ratio of 1.26-1.68 (more or less). Anyone know of 3 Chip DLP projector with a compatible Motorized zoom lens for this scenario? The DP Highlite and Titan don’t seem to fit the bill, and would only work with the first A lens scenario.

So, what are my A Lens options that have good motorized sleds built for them?
For a 190" AT screen, you really need a Sony VW5000 and a DCR lens. No movable sled needed. Just a bit of money. That would give you a bright enough picture.
Craig Peer is online now  
post #15 of 27 Old 12-08-2019, 09:30 PM
Advanced Member
 
3fingerbrown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 502
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 149 Post(s)
Liked: 51
I’m in a similar boat as I’m trying to find a projector under $5k that is bright for a big screen, but my screen will be “only” 160 inches. I’m looking at the Epson 6050UB but also exploring other options to see if anything else is out there that is 3000 lumens, laser, motorized lens shift with memory.

You have a lot of challenges with this room that go beyond the screen size. You may have corrected this already, but the white carpet, the white couch, the light colored stone, these surfaces will all reflect light back onto the screen and degrade your image. They will also light up and distract the viewer from the screen, so even an unlimited budget doesn’t fix those problems. The glass window double doors are also a problem, as light can come in through there and distract viewers in the seats. The stone will also be very reflective acoustically, but I’m sure your acoustic advisor is on top of that.

I’m going with a Screen Innovations Slate 1.2 screen, it is mildly ALR but with a gain of 1.2 it will help with brightness over some of the lower gain ALR screens. Your problem is that to do a screen that is both ALR and AT is very expensive. For this reason I mounted my LCRs on the slides and just below the screen (Paradigm Elite E7s). So for you an ALR screen might be out of the question.

If I were you, I would focus on fixing the room first. With a darker room, the 6050 might work well enough for you. If it doesn’t meet your standards, you could upgrade to something better in a year or so, and sell it. That’s much less risk thank buying a $40k projector like some are suggesting here. The projector doesn’t have to be a long term commitment, unlike the walls and built-in surfaces in your theater, which are much harder to change if they don’t work, and thus are the most important things to get right from the get-go...

Theater 1.0- The Foreclosure Theater: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...theater-4.html
Theater 2.0 under progress: The Big Daddy Theater. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...y-theater.html
3fingerbrown is offline  
post #16 of 27 Old 12-08-2019, 10:27 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Out West
Posts: 1,680
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 938 Post(s)
Liked: 464
Theoretically, you could use something like the Optoma ZK507, and add external DC, stepper or servo motors to motorize the zoom and focus controls. There are similar kits for camera lenses.
DunMunro is offline  
post #17 of 27 Old 12-08-2019, 10:40 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,858
Mentioned: 82 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2920 Post(s)
Liked: 1529
Your first mistake is getting stuck on wanting a 190" screen.
Your second mistake is wanting a 190" screen on that budget.
Your third mistake is wanting a 190" screen on that budget with light colored room, carpet, and furniture.
Your fourth mistake is creating all these 'fixed parameters' that you 'desire', which essentially ruins the HT experience.

The question you have to ask yourself is, do you want a 'showroom/gameroom' that wow's people from the looks of it, or do you want a home theater room. There are in-between rooms, but the only way to do it is to use darker colors or partition the theater part with a sliding blockade or curtain between the bar area and the room.

You're doing all kinds of things the exact opposite of how you should be doing, so I have no recommendations at all EXCEPT one.

I would recommend you buy the absolute cheapest / brightest projector there is that fits if you decide to stick with your designs.
3fingerbrown likes this.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --
coderguy is online now  
post #18 of 27 Old 12-08-2019, 10:57 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Out West
Posts: 1,680
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 938 Post(s)
Liked: 464
Retractable black drapes along the walls, would be an inexpensive fix for some the more 'glaring' problems.
DunMunro is offline  
post #19 of 27 Old 12-08-2019, 11:21 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 0
I just got the Epson 5050UB and it gives great picture with some ambient lighting and it looks much clearer, sharper, better depth of color, and more accurate color than my old 1080p. But my screen is 156" diagonal. Looking at this site, projectorcentral.com/Epson-Home_Cinema_5050UB-projection-calculator-pro.htm, with a throw of 22 feet, you can only have a 217" diagonal. Good luck in your search.

Speakers: KEF Q700 x2, Q600C, Q300 x2, Subwoofer: HSU VTF-15H MK2
Receiver: Denon AVRX4200W
Video: Panasonic DP-UB820 UHD Blu-ray / Epson 5050UB
theaternovice is offline  
post #20 of 27 Old 12-09-2019, 07:37 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 27,255
Mentioned: 274 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13035 Post(s)
Liked: 10670
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
To OP'er. To be able to add an A-lens to a native 4K projector like a JVC or Sony, you need 1.4 throw ratio. To add an A-lens to the E-shifting type of 4K or a 1080P projector, you need a throw of 1.6. You have built something that really limits what you can use in that room. As I said earlier, I would look at Epson 5050 or 6050. But forget about adding an A-lens, you do not have enough throw.

Ton of problems to overcome.
Large screen and low gain
Close viewing distance so you can't use microperf.
You need as much gain as you can get, so something like Seymour AV XD fabric, but with your viewing distance, you will see the weave.
Bright colors in the room, mean a lot of reflections, meaning you need even more lumens.

You have built something that requires a ton of lumens and a short throw. That means a projector with interchangeable lenses. I guess I would look for a business class LCD projector, but finding one with the correct lens will be hard to do, unless you buy new. Something like an Epson G7400UNL. Then buy the appropriate lens. This gets you the brightness you need and has lens memory. A business class LCD with lens memory and the Epson 5050/6050 are about all that will work in your room.
3fingerbrown likes this.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #21 of 27 Old 12-09-2019, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
JustBusiness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 508
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Thanks for all the feedback guys. I appreciate all the attention this post has received! I won't spend the time addressing each poster, but I think I can cover each point made.

1. The design render was done on Fiverr for less than $100. It is not an actual proposal for color, texture, trim style, etc. So....got it, "Darker the theater the better".
2. I wanted to start at screen size, and then select a projector that works with it with my fixed throw (because I'm burying a support beam in the tower, I have about a 20" choice of throw based on PJ size.
3. The Epson seem like they may be ok, but I'm not looking for 4k.
4. I bought an A lens with a motorized sled this weekend (Panamorph 480 on a Cineslide).
5. Ok, so now that I did that I guess we're going with an A lens, which changes (helps things)....

The verdict: 82" tall curved screen from Seymour AV (190ish wide). Center Stage XD Material. Digital Projection 3 chip DLP with the 1.45-1.74 motorized zoom lens, and lens memory (which I really shouldn't need, since I'm going with the sliding lens). So, 240" throw, 146" wide x 82" high native 16:9 image. 240/146 = 1.643 throw ratio. Toss that horizontal stretch lens (plus put the PJ in anamorphic mode) x 1.33 = 194" wide scope image. Will end up with a 8-10k lumen projector, so brightness won't be an issue. Now it's time to worry about keeping that projector cool and quiet!

Anyone see material issue with my logic above?
JustBusiness is offline  
post #22 of 27 Old 12-09-2019, 09:59 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
dkersten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Billings, MT
Posts: 1,210
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 756 Post(s)
Liked: 1343
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustBusiness View Post
This is great advice. I had been kicking around the idea of going cheap, and you’re right I’d be disappointed. I really shouldn’t cut down the quality to fit a budget I never really set, and will focus on getting what I want to meet my goals.

I’ve always been a plasma fan, and have 1080p and even 720p Hitachi Directors Series still up. I think I’m leaning toward a used light cannon with the right onboard lens. Then I can have the 16x9 brightness I want.

Here’s the issue with an A lens and a used DP projector though. It looks like Panamorph requires a 1.6+ throw ratio. Any 3 Chip DLP will need a throw ratio of 1.2-1.4 to fit in my planned wall location (not really moveable since there’s a structural steel pole there). So... what happens when a 1.33 A Lens gets tossed on a 1.2-1.4 ratio projector? Geometric issues that I can correct if the projector has the functionality? Or is this a non starter and it’s time to make compromises elsewhere?
Regarding an Anamorphic lens, the reason for the minimum throw is because of the physical restraints of the lens size. If you go closer to the screen, the width of the image going through the lens is too wide and will occlude with the frame of the lens. As you get to the limits of the lens you first get warping of the image, then it straight up gets blocked by the frame, so you only see a shadow on the left and right. Any lens that has a shorter throw would have a more exaggerated barrel or pin cushion effect, so that is the reason they have minimum throw requirements and don't make anamorphic lenses with shorter ratios.

If you like plasma or OLED, then you will NOT be happy with even a 3 chip DLP large venue projector. The only ones I am aware of that will give you decent contrast are going to cost you over $100k. The used options that are under $10k will have maybe 1000:1 contrast, and on a 190" screen in a room with light walls and floor, the image will be washed out even with the lights down, assuming you can even find one that works for your situation.

Here is the bottom line:
40fL is a pipe dream on 190" unless you have deep pockets or are willing to gamble $10k or more just to get a washed out image suitable for a dive sports bar at best. If you have over $100k for a projector, there are options that don't compromise, but if you have a couple hundred grand burning a hole in your pocket you probably aren't going to turn to AVS to help you pick out your projector. Under that, you compromise almost everything to get 40fL and still spend a significant amount of money.

If you can swing a Sony 5000es ($60k), an a-lens ($5-9k), a Lumagen Pro or MadVR Envy, AND get 1.4 throw from the front of the lens to the screen, you can have your cake and eat it too. You will have a good image with respectable contrast on a 190" wide screen, and have around 25fL of brightness, more than enough for SDR and with the processor, enough for great HDR too.

If you can shrink your expectations and requirements, you can achieve a decent result for under $15k. An Epson 6050 with an A-lens will project a pretty good image onto a 150" wide screen, at least for SDR, and not require zooming in and out to switch between modes. The screen will still be taller than a 120" for 16:9 with the added width for scope movies. If you place your front row around 10-12 feet, it will completely immerse your field of view and look the same as a 190" at 15 or 16 feet. Throw in some kind of tone mapping (MadVR, Envy, or Lumagen) and you can also get good HDR from this setup. Replace the projector with one of the 4k DLP variants that kick out 5k lumens and again with the help of a processor like the Envy or Lumagen, you can get over 30fL, which is enough for sports with the lights dimmed but still on, assuming you black out at least the front of the room. You can get into this setup for under $15k, under $10k if you use an HTPC for MadVR.

For a little more (not even much more), you can upgrade to an AT screen with gain, still sticking in the 150" wide range, and buy a JVC RS2000 and a Paladin DCR lens and get uncompromised quality in both SDR and HDR without the need for anything else. Switching aspect ratios is one button. Contrast is as close as you can get to that of Plasma or OLED for under six figures. Retail on a setup like this is just over $20k, but you can shop and find this combo for around $15k. I can say from experience this is as good as it gets without spending many tens of thousands more. It isn't 190" wide and it isn't 40fL though.
dkersten is offline  
post #23 of 27 Old 12-09-2019, 10:24 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 27,255
Mentioned: 274 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13035 Post(s)
Liked: 10670
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustBusiness View Post
Thanks for all the feedback guys. I appreciate all the attention this post has received! I won't spend the time addressing each poster, but I think I can cover each point made.

1. The design render was done on Fiverr for less than $100. It is not an actual proposal for color, texture, trim style, etc. So....got it, "Darker the theater the better".
2. I wanted to start at screen size, and then select a projector that works with it with my fixed throw (because I'm burying a support beam in the tower, I have about a 20" choice of throw based on PJ size.
3. The Epson seem like they may be ok, but I'm not looking for 4k.
4. I bought an A lens with a motorized sled this weekend (Panamorph 480 on a Cineslide).
5. Ok, so now that I did that I guess we're going with an A lens, which changes (helps things)....

The verdict: 82" tall curved screen from Seymour AV (190ish wide). Center Stage XD Material. Digital Projection 3 chip DLP with the 1.45-1.74 motorized zoom lens, and lens memory (which I really shouldn't need, since I'm going with the sliding lens). So, 240" throw, 146" wide x 82" high native 16:9 image. 240/146 = 1.643 throw ratio. Toss that horizontal stretch lens (plus put the PJ in anamorphic mode) x 1.33 = 194" wide scope image. Will end up with a 8-10k lumen projector, so brightness won't be an issue. Now it's time to worry about keeping that projector cool and quiet!

Anyone see material issue with my logic above?
Did not realize you were going with curved screen. That will be needed. The focus range for a UH480 is 12' to 21' with optimal being 14.5' to 17.5'.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #24 of 27 Old 12-09-2019, 02:51 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
JustBusiness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 508
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Did not realize you were going with curved screen. That will be needed. The focus range for a UH480 is 12' to 21' with optimal being 14.5' to 17.5'.
I didn't realize I should go curved until @@bigmouthindc; brought it up, and then I dove in to research.

Good to know on ideal Panamorph 480 specs. When it's within focus range, but outside of optimal range, what happens?

Also got the blessing on logic from the application support team at Digital Projection. Getting serious now! I'm going to have a lot of nice equipment and no money to actually finish anything!
JustBusiness is offline  
post #25 of 27 Old 12-09-2019, 07:05 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 27,255
Mentioned: 274 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13035 Post(s)
Liked: 10670
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustBusiness View Post
I didn't realize I should go curved until @@bigmouthindc; brought it up, and then I dove in to research.

Good to know on ideal Panamorph 480 specs. When it's within focus range, but outside of optimal range, what happens?

Also got the blessing on logic from the application support team at Digital Projection. Getting serious now! I'm going to have a lot of nice equipment and no money to actually finish anything!
Costs you a little bit of sharpness.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #26 of 27 Old 12-21-2019, 12:47 PM
DIY Granddad (w/help)
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 22,701
Mentioned: 320 Post(s)
Tagged: 6 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4028 Post(s)
Liked: 1893
Send a message via Skype™ to MississippiMan
It's gotta be Light...It's gotta be sturdy...It's gotta be straight

@JustBusiness


Here is a diagram for a 1x4 Edgeless Screen Frame. It should be more than rigid enough to allow for the degree of Tension that will be required when pulling your Material across taunt enough to avoid and waves. The use of offset junctions with the exterior 1x4 framework, and opposing offset junctions for the 1x3 Frame Stiffeners...along with the judicious use of a Kreg Pocket Hole Screw jig at "each and every union of 1x Lumber"...and along with wood glue in the few select Offset Junction places, all will result in a Frame you can depend upon to do the job at hand.


Additional note...the "Frame Stiffeners are mounted so that they are Flush to the rear edge of the 1x4 Frame. (see Photos)



And a mighty big job it is...so don't waffle on what is required.


I included a 3-point French Cleat hanging system, designed to allow for 3-4" side-to-side play...which also makes placing the screen onto the Wall mounted Cleats MUCH easier.


Here ya go.....




Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	128 inch 239 Frame front.jpg
Views:	59
Size:	402.7 KB
ID:	2657072   Click image for larger version

Name:	128 inch 239 Frame Rear.jpg
Views:	60
Size:	441.0 KB
ID:	2657074  

"They said it couldn't be done. Well, we sure showed 'em otherwise!"
HAS Advanced Audio and Imaging Solutions...Audio Transducers & Projection Screen Coatings

Last edited by MississippiMan; 12-21-2019 at 12:59 PM.
MississippiMan is offline  
post #27 of 27 Old 12-21-2019, 12:55 PM
DIY Granddad (w/help)
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 22,701
Mentioned: 320 Post(s)
Tagged: 6 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4028 Post(s)
Liked: 1893
Send a message via Skype™ to MississippiMan
@JustBusiness


You only "have to go Curved" because you have that 480 in tow.


I'd advise rethinking that part of the equation....there are known and viable alternatives that will give you everything your wanting...and just perhaps more than you might of expected and/or hoped for.


.............and git'er dun for a reasonable budget too.

"They said it couldn't be done. Well, we sure showed 'em otherwise!"
HAS Advanced Audio and Imaging Solutions...Audio Transducers & Projection Screen Coatings
MississippiMan is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off