ANSI contrast in particular with JVC projectors - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 65Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 256 Old 05-28-2020, 12:59 AM
Advanced Member
 
Debonaire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 511
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 349 Post(s)
Liked: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
Maybe the ideal solution is double stacking a high quality DLP with a JVC.
That's actually not a bad idea. Zeiss had a similar idea where they sandwiched two DMDs together. One was for the color, and the other was black and white to improve contrast.

2.5 million: 1 CR blows away what any JVC can do.

https://www.zeiss.com/simulation-pro...-1600-sim.html
Debonaire is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 256 Old 05-28-2020, 01:41 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Archibald1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 4,816
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2890 Post(s)
Liked: 1974
Quote:
Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
Then why does a plasma which can reach over 8,000:1 ANSI CR, look so much better with sports than an OLED in a dark room when the OLED has much much higher on off CR? But the moment you put on Aliens, or Blade Runner, or some other dark sci-fi movie, the plasma just can't compete.

Another thing is the motion handling. Plasma and DLP are in a league of their own from that regard. Even OLED is horrible, LCOS is worse. It's possible for LCD to match DLP and plasma for motion though.

People have gotten too wrapped up in contrast and resolution, to the point other areas which are just as important became worse.
I thought it was generally accepted that LCoS is generally one of the best at motion. Certainly, it is done exceptionally well on my Sony.

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up." Stephen Hawking.
"Be water my friend." Bruce Lee.
Archibald1 is online now  
post #33 of 256 Old 05-28-2020, 02:06 AM
Advanced Member
 
Debonaire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 511
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 349 Post(s)
Liked: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
I thought it was generally accepted that LCoS is generally one of the best at motion. Certainly, it is done exceptionally well on my Sony.
LCOS has a problem called sample and hold, which is on both LCOS and OLED, and isn't present on DLP, especially on plasma.

The very nature of how LCOS does its refresh, will always look jittery, even if the refresh were instantaneous. That's because we don't see in frame rates. Our vision is analog, so we don't see in abrupt changes.

On the other hand DLP and plasma use impulse for the refresh, and with the same refresh rate will always look smoother.

Dark frame insertion can help alleviate the problem, but is more of a band aid than a true fix. The only way to really fix sample and hold is if DFI could be done on a per scanline basis.
Debonaire is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #34 of 256 Old 05-28-2020, 02:50 AM
Advanced Member
 
dovercat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 857
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Liked: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
...Projection Dreams extensive research unequivocally proves...
At the time on this forum it was pointed out to the author of the Projection Dreams website that their figures and charts that indicated low ANSI contrast high on and off contrast LCOS should blow low on and off contrast high ANSI contrast DLP away did not reflect real world viewing experience. Their response in red and putting into bold a bit of the post they replied to was that they agreed. Their charts and graphs did not reflect real world viewing experience because they do not indicate everything that is going on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post
One could easily conclude from such data, that a "low" On/Off projector just simply could not compete in nearly any scene in real world content.
-->True, we could conclude that...and that would be wrong.
The Benq W2000 is a very nice example of that with it's DLP average On-OFF contrast around 1700:1 but with a great ANSI contrast! ANSI of 530:1 at the screen and over 700:1 at the lens. Beats easily every projectors I reviewed until now on this one point, also other cheap DLPs
ANSI contrast is a great pattern, not because of the 50% ADL but because black and white are next to each other and you can see if the projector can bear with this. And this competency will be also seen in the low ADL level. With the Benq W2000, every dark scenes with a few brigh spots make the black looks black because of this capability


My point is, my Planar 8150 does much better, much lower in average luminance than these charts would indicate, the question is why?
--> because your plannar has not such a bad on-off contrast to start with, and the ANSI contrast is high--> meaning the capability to juxtapose black and white next to each other is high unlike any JVC or the Epson EH-LS10000.

Some possibilities I've come up with:
1) Contrast/brightness perception is logarithmic, such that order of magnitude changes are required to be seen/significant, and in all but the very darkest scenes the contrast differences are far less than an order of magnitude.--> I fully agree
3) The distribution of brightness is as important Exactly or more important than the average level, maybe the amount of black washout is more related to the area of non-black than the overall picture level.

Presumably the iris is fixed (dynamic iris disabled) for these measurements. But yes, as you increase the amount of white on the screen, or the average brightness of the picture, the black level is raised. Yes, this is with dynamic iris disabled and fixed (opened)

I agree, it's great to see these measurements, and they add greatly our understanding of projector performance, and full credit to Soulnight for picking up where Mark P left off. Thank you a lot. It's just not "soulnight", it's really Anna&Flo so me and my girlfriend and she is doing a wonderfull job here with analysing of this movies creating excel macros etc...creating these patterns..(like always ) I just don't think we've fully solved the equation yet, I think there's more to learn/figure out still before we can confidently look at some set of numbers and extrapolate that to real world content. I agree and I have a nice idea to go even further in this direction
AVSForum thread "Understand Contrast with JVC RS500" Post 37
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...c-rs500-2.html


Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
No, this is a laughable claim, HDR is not higher ADL therefore actually requires higher On/Off than ANSI... I have proven this in the past.
That is not what they claimed.
They claimed "HDR requires a high ANSI to look its best. JVC gets around it by introducing auto tone mapping to fit into its low ANSI on screen."
Higher ANSI contrast is needed to better retain the contrast of having bright objects next to dark objects. As ANSI contrast in effect acts as a measure of control of reflections in a projectors optics. As MTF graphs which would provide a more complete picture are generally not provided by manufacturers or reviewers.

Projectiondesign F30 1080 VizSim with EN15 lens.130" white painted screen.
KEF Cresta 30 front speakers. Cresta 20c centre speaker. Cresta 10 rear speakers. Rega Vulcan subwoofer. Dayton Audio TT25-8 PUCK Tactile Transducers.
Samsung BD-H6500 Bluray player. Sony STR-DB930 AV Receiver (Dolby Digital/DTS 5.1)
Bat cave room.

Last edited by dovercat; 05-28-2020 at 02:53 AM.
dovercat is offline  
post #35 of 256 Old 05-28-2020, 03:06 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Javs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Sydney
Posts: 8,443
Mentioned: 532 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7222 Post(s)
Liked: 6908
Maybe @Soulnight and @Kris Deering should chime in since they both agreed wholeheartedly with my post about HDR and ADL levels. They can also clarify the ANSI stuff too I am sure.

Sent from my SM-G988B using Tapatalk

JVC X9500 (RS620) | 120" 16:9 | Marantz AV7702 MkII | Emotiva XPA-7 | DIY Modular Towers | DIY TPL-150 Surrounds | DIY Atmos | DIY 18" Subs
-
MadVR Settings | UHD Waveform Analysis | Arve Tool Instructions + V3 Javs Curves
Javs is offline  
post #36 of 256 Old 05-28-2020, 03:46 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Archibald1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 4,816
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2890 Post(s)
Liked: 1974
Quote:
Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
LCOS has a problem called sample and hold, which is on both LCOS and OLED, and isn't present on DLP, especially on plasma.

The very nature of how LCOS does its refresh, will always look jittery, even if the refresh were instantaneous. That's because we don't see in frame rates. Our vision is analog, so we don't see in abrupt changes.

On the other hand DLP and plasma use impulse for the refresh, and with the same refresh rate will always look smoother.

Dark frame insertion can help alleviate the problem, but is more of a band aid than a true fix. The only way to really fix sample and hold is if DFI could be done on a per scanline basis.
Thank you for the explanation.

Even if it can be considered a 'band aid' solution, I find it works very well.

I find DLP rainbows upon motion far more distracting however....

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up." Stephen Hawking.
"Be water my friend." Bruce Lee.
Archibald1 is online now  
post #37 of 256 Old 05-28-2020, 03:50 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Archibald1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 4,816
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2890 Post(s)
Liked: 1974
Isn't contrast ratio the difference between the brightest and darkest part of an image?
I think we are all agreed it is, and therefore logic says that a higher ANSI contrast ratio would yield better HDR, which of course is itself only truly evident/realised in scenes that mix extremely high brightness and very dark areas simultaneously.

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up." Stephen Hawking.
"Be water my friend." Bruce Lee.
Archibald1 is online now  
post #38 of 256 Old 05-28-2020, 04:15 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Javs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Sydney
Posts: 8,443
Mentioned: 532 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7222 Post(s)
Liked: 6908
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Isn't contrast ratio the difference between the brightest and darkest part of an image?
I think we are all agreed it is, and therefore logic says that a higher ANSI contrast ratio would yield better HDR, which of course is itself only truly evident/realised in scenes that mix extremely high brightness and very dark areas simultaneously.
Not exactly.

Of course high ANSI is good, but not at the expense of On/Off. It must be a balance.

It just so happens that there is a sliding scale between on/off and ANSI which is what we call ADL. ANSI is 50% ADL which is almost never in actual content.

I have demonstrated that HDR is in actual fact quite a bit lower in ADL vs it's sdr bluray counterpart by studying the waveforms and calculating the ADL, I linked the thread above. So to say HDR requires higher ANSI when the same exact shots are actually lower in ADL is false because that means the scale is tipped in the direction of on/off.

1-10% ADL contrast is way more important than ANSI.

Sent from my SM-G988B using Tapatalk
Archibald1 likes this.

JVC X9500 (RS620) | 120" 16:9 | Marantz AV7702 MkII | Emotiva XPA-7 | DIY Modular Towers | DIY TPL-150 Surrounds | DIY Atmos | DIY 18" Subs
-
MadVR Settings | UHD Waveform Analysis | Arve Tool Instructions + V3 Javs Curves
Javs is offline  
post #39 of 256 Old 05-28-2020, 08:31 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Kris Deering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Pacific Northwet
Posts: 11,233
Mentioned: 242 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4410 Post(s)
Liked: 8049
I don't want to get into this any more than I have to because at the end of the day it just ends up in a round and round.

I think Flo and Anna did a fantastic job with their contrast testing and I even adopted some of what they did with the ADL testing (as did Arrow). But I think there is a big aspect still missing and that is human perception models. We are treating contrast as a number and saying that number represents perceptual contrast over that scale, and that is not true. The ADL testing doesn't take into account any sense of eye bias that GREATLY effects our perception of contrast and black levels. This is why you typically see some people refer to the fact that the eye can only perceive about 100:1 in contrast ratio, which is only true at full bias (roughly). You'll also find in studies that our eyes have exponentially more sensitivity in low light as they adjust to the dark. We even see this being address in video now with ICTCP, which was developed to take this into account (dE2000 assumes our eye has a higher bias).

If we were to take into account eye biasing you'd find that contrast PERCEPTION is MUCH higher in lower ADL content because our eye isn't nearly as biased. As you go up in ADL, biasing limits overall contrast perception, so you don't need nearly as much to essentially look the same. With an ADL of 50% (ANSI), the amount of bias combined with our eye's function as an optical comparator make what tiny amount of black is on the screen in mixed images look extremely black almost regardless of what display you are using (unlike an ANSI checkerboard). As ADL gets closer to black, the majority of the image becomes dark (now only small bits of white or highlights) and our eye biasing works against the display technology because we are now more contrast sensitive and the floor of the display becomes the limiting factor (this is for contrast only, we won't even get into limitations in color and gamma due to a display's lack of contrast potential). Since most movies are much lower in ADL, we are in a region more often where contrast perception is much higher (which is why Dolby is such a big backer of ICTCP) and the floor of the projector is extremely important.

What I'd love to see is research done on different ADLs and how display contrast AND eye biasing work to find where the crossover point is. Above that point, eye biasing is the dominant factor of contrast perception and as long as a display has a minimum contrast potential, perception of contrast between displays will be little to nothing (limited to pixel peeping most likely). Below that point the system contrast is the dominant factor as our eyes have more contrast potential than the display (in most cases, OLED/Plasma and some others may exceed). But you'd also have to take into account the content and how long it has sustained the ADL and the factors that come with transitions (going from a really high ADL to a really low ADL and how long it takes the eye to adapt for the scene, we see this all the time when you go from a bright scene to pure black and you see pure black for a moment but then eye adaption kicks in).

Edit: Of course you'd have to take into account the viewing environment as well. If the room has enough ambient light or scatter, that is going to cause a certain amount of bias already, so contrast perception would be different that someone viewing in a black pit. So you can see this is not a truly black and white debate (no pun intended), but there are a LOT of variables that will skew contrast perception. If I have a low contrast projector (take a BenQ DLP for example), because of my room the contrast perception could be different than someone using it in more of a family room setting with lots of light scatter or even ambient light due to eye bias. It also goes the other way. If you were in a room with lots of scatter or ambient light, the difference in contrast perception between a JVC and a BenQ may not be as great because your eye is limiting the contrast perception potential. Again, this is a rabbit hole that goes pretty deep.

That's all from me folks.

My Home Theater UPDATED JUNE 2020
Technical Editor/Writer Sound and Vision Magazine
Deep Dive AV - Calibration, Consulting and Education

Last edited by Kris Deering; 05-28-2020 at 08:59 AM.
Kris Deering is offline  
post #40 of 256 Old 05-28-2020, 09:21 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Archibald1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 4,816
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2890 Post(s)
Liked: 1974
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Edit: Of course you'd have to take into account the viewing environment as well. If the room has enough ambient light or scatter, that is going to cause a certain amount of bias already, so contrast perception would be different that someone viewing in a black pit.
I guess that is the principal of bias lighting/Ambilight, as it enhances contrast perception with a light behind the image making blacks look blacker next to the soft glow of the rear lights.... (?)


“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up." Stephen Hawking.
"Be water my friend." Bruce Lee.
Archibald1 is online now  
post #41 of 256 Old 05-28-2020, 09:28 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SirMaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,661
Mentioned: 79 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1371 Post(s)
Liked: 1028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
I guess that is the principal of bias lighting/Ambilight, as it enhances contrast perception with a light behind the image making blacks look blacker next to the soft glow of the rear lights.... (?)

Conceptually yes, but In practice it's really hard to do for a projector screen at least. I tried once, but no matter what it always made the image look worse IMO. The last thing you want to do in my experience is add any other light sources to your projection room.
SirMaster is online now  
post #42 of 256 Old 05-28-2020, 09:38 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Archibald1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 4,816
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2890 Post(s)
Liked: 1974
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
Conceptually yes, but In practice it's really hard to do for a projector screen at least. I tried once, but no matter what it always made the image look worse IMO. The last thing you want to do in my experience is add any other light sources to your projection room.
I have one of the Ambilight TVs and it is very effective. Mind you on the TV the lights react with and are in tune with the colours on screen.

Not something easily done with a PJ screen.

On these newer TVs you even tell it the colour of your walls (near as dammit) before it starts.

It does seem to reduce eye fatigue too which was one of its selling points.

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up." Stephen Hawking.
"Be water my friend." Bruce Lee.
Archibald1 is online now  
post #43 of 256 Old 05-28-2020, 10:04 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Out West
Posts: 2,711
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1523 Post(s)
Liked: 813
Flo and Anna's tests show that high ANSI contrast projectors will have an advantage in scenes up to 10-15% ADL regardless of room conditions.

One of the problems with their test methodology is that it uses pure white and pure black squares to try and represent ADL levels. This is problematic because pure black is not common, even in low ADL scenes, thus it greatly overstates the inherent contrast differences in low ADL scenes.
DunMunro is offline  
post #44 of 256 Old 05-28-2020, 10:14 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SirMaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,661
Mentioned: 79 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1371 Post(s)
Liked: 1028
Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
Flo and Anna's tests show that high ANSI contrast projectors will have an advantage in scenes up to 10-15% ADL regardless of room conditions.

One of the problems with their test methodology is that it uses pure white and pure black squares to try and represent ADL levels. This is problematic because pure black is not common, even in low ADL scenes, thus it greatly overstates the inherent contrast differences in low ADL scenes.
But how many scenes are really 10-15% ADL?

SirMaster is online now  
post #45 of 256 Old 05-28-2020, 10:28 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 28,593
Mentioned: 289 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14039 Post(s)
Liked: 11699
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
Then why does a plasma which can reach over 8,000:1 ANSI CR, look so much better with sports than an OLED in a dark room when the OLED has much much higher on off CR? But the moment you put on Aliens, or Blade Runner, or some other dark sci-fi movie, the plasma just can't compete.

Another thing is the motion handling. Plasma and DLP are in a league of their own from that regard. Even OLED is horrible, LCOS is worse. It's possible for LCD to match DLP and plasma for motion though.

People have gotten too wrapped up in contrast and resolution, to the point other areas which are just as important became worse.
We were talking ANSI contrast and I said scene. That would be a paused picture, no motion involved.
Mike Garrett is online now  
post #46 of 256 Old 05-28-2020, 10:33 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Out West
Posts: 2,711
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1523 Post(s)
Liked: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
But how many scenes are really 10-15% ADL?
How many scenes show large areas of pure black? Reducing a ~5% ADL scene, for example, to pure black and pure white is a very unrealistic way to represent, what might be a fairly evenly illuminated afternoon scene, on an overcast day.
DunMunro is offline  
post #47 of 256 Old 05-28-2020, 10:41 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 28,593
Mentioned: 289 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14039 Post(s)
Liked: 11699
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
How many scenes show large areas of pure black? Reducing a ~5% ADL scene, for example, to pure black and pure white is a very unrealistic way to represent, what might be a fairly evenly illuminated afternoon scene, on an overcast day.
And that is supposed to hurt the high native contrast projector in some way and help the low native contrast projector also?
Mike Garrett is online now  
post #48 of 256 Old 05-28-2020, 10:51 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Out West
Posts: 2,711
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1523 Post(s)
Liked: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
And that is supposed to hurt the high native contrast projector in some way and help the low native contrast projector also?
You should qualify terms such as high and low contrast, because there are different ways to measure it. In this thread entitled "ANSI contrast in particular with JVC projectors", it is the JVC projectors that have low ANSI contrast, and might, therefore, be fairly called "low native contrast projectors".

I don't know if a scene showing an evenly illuminated, overcast, afternoon day will show an advantage on any particular type of projector, but I am fairly confident that such a scene will not allow for the contrast range that is measured by reducing it to a pure white on pure black target.
DunMunro is offline  
post #49 of 256 Old 05-28-2020, 11:00 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 28,593
Mentioned: 289 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14039 Post(s)
Liked: 11699
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
You should qualify terms such as high and low contrast, because there are different ways to measure it. In this thread entitled "ANSI contrast in particular with JVC projectors", it is the JVC projectors that have low ANSI contrast, and might, therefore, be fairly called "low native contrast projectors".

I don't know if a scene showing an evenly illuminated, overcast, afternoon day will show an advantage on any particular type of projector, but I am fairly confident that such a scene will not allow for the contrast range that is measured by reducing it to a pure white on pure black target.
If the scene is a low ADL scene that is evenly illuminated, it would be an advantage to the high native contrast projector with the better black floor. And the lower you go in ADL, the larger the advantage. This is assumed in a good room.
Mike Garrett is online now  
post #50 of 256 Old 05-28-2020, 11:39 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Out West
Posts: 2,711
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1523 Post(s)
Liked: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
If the scene is a low ADL scene that is evenly illuminated, it would be an advantage to the high native contrast projector with the better black floor. And the lower you go in ADL, the larger the advantage. This is assumed in a good room.
I assume you mean high native on/off contrast.

That may or may not be true, and the only way to know would be to take a still frame of the scene in question and measure the displayed, on screen, contrast from both projectors, under the same test conditions.
DunMunro is offline  
post #51 of 256 Old 05-28-2020, 12:05 PM
Advanced Member
 
Debonaire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 511
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 349 Post(s)
Liked: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
We were talking ANSI contrast and I said scene. That would be a paused picture, no motion involved.
That was not my point. Plasma can have over 8,000:1 ANSI contrast alone, whereas most projectors don't even have half of that with on/off. If the image were paused, plasma would have an even greater advantage with ANSI because then the phosphors would have had time to settle, and increasing ANSI even more.

But that would be an interesting metric because ANSI would most certainly go down for LCOS too with motion.

My point was though that if you had two projectors, and one were to have 8,000:1 ANSI, and the other to have true native 8,000:1 native on/off, the 8,000:1 ANSI would look way better.

I don't think rooms have to be a black hole to take advantage of ANSI. It sure didn't hurt a plasma in a moderately lit room.

Low ANSI projectors like JVC take a hit because of reflections in the lens due do the nature of how projection systems currently work.

The future of projection technology is scanning lasers like which was used in the Sony MP-CL1.

I personally think LCOS is a stagnant technology that has reached its peak. DLP has already shown with the Christie Eclipse the potential of the technology.

It's bizarre why some Chinese knockoff of DLP hasn't been made yet, since many patents for the technology have expired years ago.
Debonaire is online now  
post #52 of 256 Old 05-28-2020, 12:32 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Kris Deering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Pacific Northwet
Posts: 11,233
Mentioned: 242 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4410 Post(s)
Liked: 8049
Quote:
Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
I personally think LCOS is a stagnant technology that has reached its peak. DLP has already shown with the Christie Eclipse the potential of the technology.
Sorry but no. The Eclipse is not some potential that is limited to DLP. ANY display technology can do panels in line to increase SEQUENTIAL contrast. The problem is the light source, which is why we haven't seen this used in consumer applications (and likely won't). But it is simple math. You could achieve this with any technology if a company wanted to put it out with the necessary light engine.

DLP native contrast chip 2k:1 with another inline at 2K:1= 4million:1 contrast

JVC native contrast 30K:1 (we'll use one of the "low contrast" JVCs) with a cheap 720p LCD panel with 600:1 contrast = 18 million:1 contrast with 921,600 zones. I talked to display manufacturers about this well over a decade ago. It is nothing new. I had a long conversation about it with Brightside in Canada before they were bought by Dolby (and were developing the original Pulsar display). They were working on zoned systems for flat panels before it was ever something offered in consumer level displays (FALD).

Also, a 8,000:1 ANSI CR display doesn't tell me anything about it for overall contrast. You still need to know the sequential so you know how low the black floor can go. It is unlikely a 8K:1 display has a low sequential contrast because you can't have a black floor low enough to make that figure without a high sequential contrast. You'd be WAY past the contrast potential of any DLP out there aside from something like the Eclipse. And the likelihood of having a room that would give you anywhere near that type of contrast is EXTREMELY unlikely at those ADLs.

Again, the round and round continues and people just throw up numbers with little basis in reality yet there have been NUMEROUS tests done on all this YEARS ago.
Casey_Bryson and Mike Garrett like this.

My Home Theater UPDATED JUNE 2020
Technical Editor/Writer Sound and Vision Magazine
Deep Dive AV - Calibration, Consulting and Education
Kris Deering is offline  
post #53 of 256 Old 05-28-2020, 01:05 PM
Advanced Member
 
Debonaire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 511
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 349 Post(s)
Liked: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Sorry but no. The Eclipse is not some potential that is limited to DLP. ANY display technology can do panels in line to increase SEQUENTIAL contrast. The problem is the light source, which is why we haven't seen this used in consumer applications (and likely won't). But it is simple math. You could achieve this with any technology if a company wanted to put it out with the necessary light engine.

DLP native contrast chip 2k:1 with another inline at 2K:1= 4million:1 contrast

JVC native contrast 30K:1 (we'll use one of the "low contrast" JVCs) with a cheap 720p LCD panel with 600:1 contrast = 18 million:1 contrast with 921,600 zones. I talked to display manufacturers about this well over a decade ago. It is nothing new. I had a long conversation about it with Brightside in Canada before they were bought by Dolby (and were developing the original Pulsar display). They were working on zoned systems for flat panels before it was ever something offered in consumer level displays (FALD).

Also, a 8,000:1 ANSI CR display doesn't tell me anything about it for overall contrast. You still need to know the sequential so you know how low the black floor can go. It is unlikely a 8K:1 display has a low sequential contrast because you can't have a black floor low enough to make that figure without a high sequential contrast. You'd be WAY past the contrast potential of any DLP out there aside from something like the Eclipse. And the likelihood of having a room that would give you anywhere near that type of contrast is EXTREMELY unlikely at those ADLs.

Again, the round and round continues and people just throw up numbers with little basis in reality yet there have been NUMEROUS tests done on all this YEARS ago.
I didn't know other technologies could do the contrast enhancing dual chips. This has been done for over a decade with DLP. I guess I wrongly assumed this was strictly DLP because that's the only technology which has done this with the Zeiss Velvet, and the E&S Digistar.

Until the Eclipse, only planetarium projectors did that. But it's curious the two planetarium projectors aren't the size of a Mini Cooper like the Eclipse.

What would be neat is if you could do a 103" using a setup like this with a dual chip contrast enhancing. This whole short throw projector technology has been around for over 40 years.

Debonaire is online now  
post #54 of 256 Old 05-28-2020, 04:41 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SirMaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,661
Mentioned: 79 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1371 Post(s)
Liked: 1028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
I don't think rooms have to be a black hole to take advantage of ANSI. It sure didn't hurt a plasma in a moderately lit room.

I personally think LCOS is a stagnant technology that has reached its peak. DLP has already shown with the Christie Eclipse the potential of the technology.
That's because a television screen is on quite a black substrate. A projection screen is white...

Christie is a $250K+ 6 DLP unit.

What's even the cheapest 3DLP 1080p or 4K projector we have ever seen? $20K?
SirMaster is online now  
post #55 of 256 Old 05-28-2020, 05:03 PM
Advanced Member
 
Debonaire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 511
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 349 Post(s)
Liked: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
That's because a television screen is on quite a black substrate. A projection screen is white...

Christie is a $250K+ 6 DLP unit.

What's even the cheapest 3DLP 1080p or 4K projector we have ever seen? $20K?
The only over $20k projector I've seen was a Sony G90, which would be about $62k in today's dollars. I think the Eclipse is the only digital which can trounce that projector in every single category.

W.Mayer is the only one on this forum who actually has an Eclipse?
Debonaire is online now  
post #56 of 256 Old 05-28-2020, 06:02 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 28,593
Mentioned: 289 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14039 Post(s)
Liked: 11699
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
The only over $20k projector I've seen was a Sony G90, which would be about $62k in today's dollars. I think the Eclipse is the only digital which can trounce that projector in every single category.

W.Mayer is the only one on this forum who actually has an Eclipse?
I know three more soon to be Eclipse owners.
Mike Garrett is online now  
post #57 of 256 Old 05-31-2020, 01:53 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Aztar35's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 3,828
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3108 Post(s)
Liked: 1809
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
That's because a television screen is on quite a black substrate. A projection screen is white...

Christie is a $250K+ 6 DLP unit.

What's even the cheapest 3DLP 1080p or 4K projector we have ever seen? $20K?
Those 3 chip DLPs put out an outstanding overall image that has to be seen. I chose a 3 chipper DLP, an excellent sample, over my JVC NX7. Now, the 3 chip DLPs that had cost tens of thousands a few years ago, you can get pre-owned for a few thousand or even under a thousand.
Debonaire likes this.
Aztar35 is offline  
post #58 of 256 Old 06-01-2020, 05:22 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Luminated67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,817
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1247 Post(s)
Liked: 1056
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Those 3 chip DLPs put out an outstanding overall image that has to be seen. I chose a 3 chipper DLP, an excellent sample, over my JVC NX7. Now, the 3 chip DLPs that had cost tens of thousands a few years ago, you can get pre-owned for a few thousand or even under a thousand.
Why would you pick the 3 chip DLP over your NX7, surely the NX7 is still light years ahead in respects to contrast and black levels, two things everyone insists are the most important aspect of a projected image?

Epson EH-TW9400 - QualGear Fixed Frame 100” - Sony x700 BRP & Panasonic 420 BRP - Sony 1080 AVR - IPL Acoustics M1TLs & IPL Acoustics AVC Pro Centre, Four KEF surrounds & 2 Sub boxes (10” Sub + 10” Passive Radiator)

Movie Image collection
Luminated67 is online now  
post #59 of 256 Old 06-01-2020, 07:45 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Aztar35's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 3,828
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3108 Post(s)
Liked: 1809
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
Why would you pick the 3 chip DLP over your NX7, surely the NX7 is still light years ahead in respects to contrast and black levels, two things everyone insists are the most important aspect of a projected image?
Hi. First of off, if best sequential contrast and black levels were really the end of the story, then I suggest everyone should go back to CRT projectors. Second, I A/B'd the two projectors and the NX7 did not appear to be "light years ahead" there. The contrast and blacks coming over the DMDs of the 3 chip DLP were visually excellent. To me, the better blacks of the Lcos images come at too high a cost to the image for my tastes; I no longer like the look, which I can best personally describe as generally softer, and somewhat chalky or airbrushed-like when compared to the technology's DLP counter-parts.
Aztar35 is offline  
post #60 of 256 Old 06-01-2020, 09:52 AM
Senior Member
 
aoaaron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 318
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 254 Post(s)
Liked: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Hi. First of off, if best sequential contrast and black levels were really the end of the story, then I suggest everyone should go back to CRT projectors. Second, I A/B'd the two projectors and the NX7 did not appear to be "light years ahead" there. The contrast and blacks coming over the DMDs of the 3 chip DLP were visually excellent. To me, the better blacks of the Lcos images come at too high a cost to the image for my tastes; I no longer like the look, which I can best personally describe as generally softer, and somewhat chalky or airbrushed-like when compared to the technology's DLP counter-parts.


Does the epson 9400 factor into this conversation anywhere as being comparable with the DLP and NX7 for these issues? (sorry newbie here)
aoaaron is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off