ANSI contrast in particular with JVC projectors - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 18 Old 12-08-2019, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
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ANSI contrast in particular with JVC projectors

I know the JVC x790 I am setting up has a very high ON/OFF contrast but I was wondering how it's ANSI contrast compares with other projectors like Sony and Epson. I heard that JVC projectors don't necessarily have the best ANSI contrast but I cannot find any measurements for the ANSI contrast of the x790 vs others like the Sony 285 and 385.

EDIT I am guessing the ANSI of the JVC is not an issue as I did some searching on here and even read responses about ANSI contrast from an old thread of mine. If you have any thoughts re todays JVC vs others, let me know but I think it's safe to say I should expect a great picture with my x790 as long as I treat my room.

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post #2 of 18 Old 12-08-2019, 02:14 PM
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Typically JVCs measure ~200-1 for ANSI compared to ~400-1 for a UB6050 and ~500-1 for a UHZ65.

In this test the X7900 ANSI was 301-1 versus 200-1 for the NX7, while the Sony measured 484-1.
https://rehders.de/test-spezial-jvc-...aeren-erleben/ (use google translate for your language of choice and open the example images in a new tab for full resolution).
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post #3 of 18 Old 12-08-2019, 05:11 PM
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ANSI contrast in particular with JVC projectors

I’m not an expert by any means but I have noticed JVC fanboys tend to claim ANSI doesn’t matter while the DLP fanboys tend to claim it’s the most important. From the few professional calibrators who seem pretty neutral and objective I’ve been told that they are both in fact important, Including JVC’s Chief Engineer. I’ll leave a link below to an interview he has with Scott Wilkinson of this forum. The video’s very long, if you can watch the whole thing it’s very informative they go into the main advantages of LCD, LCoS and DLP.


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post #4 of 18 Old 12-08-2019, 08:30 PM
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You have a pretty good room if it will even support 200:1 ANSI. So if your room supports 200:1 do you think you are going to tell the difference in a projector that supports 200:1 vs 800:1 ANSI?
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post #5 of 18 Old 12-08-2019, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc View Post
I know the JVC x790 I am setting up has a very high ON/OFF contrast but I was wondering how it's ANSI contrast compares with other projectors like Sony and Epson. I heard that JVC projectors don't necessarily have the best ANSI contrast but I cannot find any measurements for the ANSI contrast of the x790 vs others like the Sony 285 and 385.

EDIT I am guessing the ANSI of the JVC is not an issue as I did some searching on here and even read responses about ANSI contrast from an old thread of mine. If you have any thoughts re todays JVC vs others, let me know but I think it's safe to say I should expect a great picture with my x790 as long as I treat my room.
On/Off contrast is far more important for most scenes, why do you think oLED demands a price premium?

Contrast comes from both ANSI and Native, but most 'noticeable' contrast comes more from the Native On/Off contrast side of the equation. Also, it's very hard to see the difference in ANSI unless you are using specific type scenes which rarely show up in movies (occasionally).

ANSI contrast is only a measure of a lot of absolute white and absolute black on the screen at the same time, which is very rare in most scenes. Most scenes are either mostly bright, somewhat less bright, mostly dark, or mostly black with a gradient of white where only the middle of a star might be pure white (tiny area).

Our eyes also don't adjust well on large screens to be able to see ANSI contrast as easily, ANSI is easier to see differences on smaller screens because it doesn't blind our sensitivity to it as much.

You're also talking about differences usually of 50% to 200% increases with ANSI contrast (only in a perfect room), but JVC's Native contrast is 10x higher than most projectors (or more). So you're talking maybe 2x ANSI compared to 10x to 30x Native increases.

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Last edited by coderguy; 12-08-2019 at 10:12 PM.
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post #6 of 18 Old 12-09-2019, 07:11 AM
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I don't know about the importance.

All I know is that I have seen many JVC and many Sony or other projectors. I have never had a feeling that the contrast in bright scenes was really any different. I have never felt the sense of a washed out bright image on a JVC meaning low ANSI contrast.

However on any projector other than JVC I have got the feeling of washed out dark scenes at least when compared to how a JVC produces such scenes.

And unless you have matte black all over you walls and ceiling and floor, you aren't going to be getting over 200:1 ANSI contrast in your room anyways. ANSI contrast means bright scenes, so there is a ton of light to reflect. Native contrast shines in the darkest scenes where there isn't really enough light to even reflect onto the walls and ceiling and then back onto the screen.
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post #7 of 18 Old 12-09-2019, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
You have a pretty good room if it will even support 200:1 ANSI. So if your room supports 200:1 do you think you are going to tell the difference in a projector that supports 200:1 vs 800:1 ANSI?
So what you're saying is that even in your outstanding and optimized room, someone wearing a bright white shirt, fluorescent hat can visit, plant himself in one of the front row seats a few feet from your screen and then it will all "go to pot" (be ruined)?
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post #8 of 18 Old 12-09-2019, 06:24 PM
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Everything is important to some degree. When I said ANSI is less important, I meant at high numbers.

That's obvious because you can just go look at a high ANSI projector and notice it doesn't help the contrast much, whereas a high Native projector does look more contrasty.
The best test for this is to compare 2 DLP's, one with very high ANSI and one with very low ANSI, don't compare an LCOS to a DLP, that comparison is biased in our eyes.

As you already know, the contrast is lost in ANSI whenever the black level is raised, this is because both black and white are projected on the ANSI pattern, unlike Native which is projecting full White, then full black.
So with Native, it's harder to pollute the number because when taking the second measurement, only all black on the screen (hence no light in the room).

With the ANSI pattern, you are measuring the black at the same time as the white.
The bigger the screen, the harder to contain the ANSI, generally speaking.

With ANSI contrast, it is almost like you ALWAYS have lights on in the room, because it's projecting the white squares next to black squares, the projector is self-polluting.
With ANSI it does not have to actually damage the contrast on the screen, just the room's absolute black level, so any reflections that raise the black level will damage the contrast.

The only way the above would NOT be true, is if you had a checker boarded shirt that reflected light at the screen with pinpoint accuracy to match the White/Black squares at EXACTLY the correct positioning.

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post #9 of 18 Old 12-09-2019, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
So what you're saying is that even in your outstanding and optimized room, someone wearing a bright white shirt, fluorescent hat can visit, plant himself in one of the front row seats a few feet from your screen and then it will all "go to pot" (be ruined)?
Ruined, no, but will have some small effect. Same reason why I use a dark blanket, rather than a white blanket in the theater room.
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post #10 of 18 Old 12-09-2019, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Everything is important to some degree. When I said ANSI is less important, I meant at high numbers.

That's obvious because you can just go look at a high ANSI projector and notice it doesn't help the contrast much, whereas a high Native projector does look more contrasty.
The best test for this is to compare 2 DLP's, one with very high ANSI and one with very low ANSI, don't compare an LCOS to a DLP, that comparison is biased in our eyes.

As you already know, the contrast is lost in ANSI whenever the black level is raised, this is because both black and white are projected on the ANSI pattern, unlike Native which is projecting full White, then full black.
So with Native, it's harder to pollute the number because when taking the second measurement, only all black on the screen (hence no light in the room).

With the ANSI pattern, you are measuring the black at the same time as the white.
The bigger the screen, the harder to contain the ANSI, generally speaking.

With ANSI contrast, it is almost like you ALWAYS have lights on in the room, because it's projecting the white squares next to black squares, the projector is self-polluting.
With ANSI it does not have to actually damage the contrast on the screen, just the room's absolute black level, so any reflections that raise the black level will damage the contrast.

The only way the above would NOT be true, is if you had a checker boarded shirt that reflected light at the screen with pinpoint accuracy to match the White/Black squares at EXACTLY the correct positioning.
Also with all the bright white on the screen, the iris in your eyes closes down, making the blacks look darker than they actually are. So while the measurement shows a large difference, the visual perception is small to non existent.
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post #11 of 18 Old 12-09-2019, 06:46 PM
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Right, it's a logarithmic basis, because our eyes are not as sensitive to black when white is being projected at the same time.

It's the same concept as leaving the home theater door open and there being a bathroom or night light down the hall with a tiny bit of light coming in.

If you do this, it will visually hurt your native more than your ANSI. It will still greatly damage your ANSI from measurements, but it's harder to visually tell. The contrast will still look about the same in scenes with enough brightness. Only in the darker scenes would you really take notice that the door was open. ANSI is just harder to see across the board after a certain point. Of course I am talking about a small amount of light, not a lot. If you have too much light, the black in the bright scenes will eventually wash out.

Another thing to consider is how much better does a TV's bright scenes look in a room with a tiny bit of ambient light compared to no light.
There is a difference, but it's not night and day. So that difference is like the MAX difference you could even obtain, considering how high some TV's ANSI contrast is.

So given the above, I'll take the dark scene contrast every day over the bright scene contrast.

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post #12 of 18 Old 12-09-2019, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Right, it's a logarithmic basis, because our eyes are not as sensitive to black when white is being projected at the same time.

It's the same concept as leaving the home theater door open and there being a bathroom or night light down the hall with a tiny bit of light coming in.

If you do this, it will visually hurt your native more than your ANSI. It will still greatly damage your ANSI from measurements, but it's harder to visually tell. The contrast will still look about the same in scenes with enough brightness. Only in the darker scenes would you really take notice that the door was open. ANSI is just harder to see across the board after a certain point. Of course I am talking about a small amount of light, not a lot. If you have too much light, the black in the bright scenes will eventually wash out.

Another thing to consider is how much better does a TV's bright scenes look in a room with a tiny bit of ambient light compared to no light.
There is a difference, but it's not night and day. So that difference is like the MAX difference you could even obtain, considering how high some TV's ANSI contrast is.

So given the above, I'll take the dark scene contrast every day over the bright scene contrast.
Also, the brighter you are watching the image, the less difference you will notice for ANSI contrast.
If you are watching your projector very DIM (like 10 fL), you can see differences in ANSI easier sometimes as it will affect more dark scenes, but depends as it gets complex.
Same here. That is why I elected to buy for my blacked out room, high native/low ANSI contrast solution. Now if for the same money I could have gotten high native/high ANSI, I would rather have it, even if it did not make much difference.
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post #13 of 18 Old 12-09-2019, 07:15 PM
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Ruined, no, but will have some small effect. Same reason why I use a dark blanket, rather than a white blanket in the theater room.
I think that's really neat that you would do that. Every little bit of improved image quality counts.
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post #14 of 18 Old 12-09-2019, 07:17 PM
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So given the above, I'll take the dark scene contrast every day over the bright scene contrast.
I have found that the Sony and JVC projectors have nice depth in bright scenes too.
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post #15 of 18 Old 12-09-2019, 10:34 PM
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ANSI contrast in particular with JVC projectors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
So what you're saying is that even in your outstanding and optimized room, someone wearing a bright white shirt, fluorescent hat can visit, plant himself in one of the front row seats a few feet from your screen and then it will all "go to pot" (be ruined)?


Think about it this way.

With a checkerboard ANSI contrast pattern up. If you stand with your back at the screen and look out into the room, if you can see anything in the room, those things are reflecting light onto the screen which will inevitably affect the ansi contrast to some extent.

If your eyes can see objects in the room then it’s enough light to bounce off your white screen.

Last edited by SirMaster; 12-09-2019 at 10:54 PM.
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post #16 of 18 Old 12-09-2019, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
Think about it this way.

With a checkerboard ANSI contrast pattern up. If you stand with your back at the screen and look out into the room, if you can see anything in the room, those things are reflecting light onto the screen which will inevitably affect the ansi contrast to some extent.

If your eyes can see rose objects then it’s enough light to bounce off your white screen.
Yes.
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post #17 of 18 Old 12-10-2019, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
On/Off contrast is far more important for most scenes, why do you think oLED demands a price premium?
I thought it was because they are more expensive to manufacture reliably and have a higher rejection rate then normal LCD panels.

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post #18 of 18 Old 12-10-2019, 05:38 AM
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That is true to some extent, but the manufacturing is now in such mass quantities that rejection rates or manufacturing expense should be only a tiny part of it.
They've gotten the manufacturing of most of this stuff down to 'dirt cheap' levels.

That's why the Micro-LED / The Wall at a reasonable cost is a pipe dream, manufacturing cost has a tiny effect on price.
There will be enough rich people that are willing to pay crazy prices for it (at least for a few years), that they will keep the prices on Micro-LED high.

The main thing that drives prices down is when the Taiwanese and Korean companies enter into the market, if they have the capabilities to make 'somewhat comparable' generic competing products.
Of course brand recognition (like Apple) demands a premium regardless.

Take Intel for example, how much more does it cost to make an i9 vs. an i7.
It's viable economic price points, selling things at the most optimal price / quantity relationship that determines the price.

Oligopolies exist in these companies, and oligopoly is enough to influence market prices even if they cannot control the market like a monopoly.
Market forces almost always in effect that keep the most premium products at a higher price.

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