1-chip DLP laser source with no Color Wheel? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 28 Old 01-02-2020, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
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1-chip DLP laser source with no Color Wheel?

hi,

It seems there are some laser source 1-chip DLP, such as Hisense and LG UST, are advertised as colorwheel-less. I thought laser source On/Off cycle rate is not fast enough to sequence a 1-chip DLP RGB image, yet (only RGB LED source On/Off cycle rate is fast enough for a colorwheel-less setup).

Is this real? Or just marketing BS? Anyone has more technical detail on their design?

Thanks!

li.
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post #2 of 28 Old 01-07-2020, 02:04 PM
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This is a quote from a review of one of these projectors:

"However LG makes the color wheel obsolete with its 3-laser design, it features one red and two blue lasers with one of the blue lasers exciting a phosphor to create pure green light. Since the light source already comprises the three primary colors, there’s no need for the color wheel."

This should answer your question.

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post #3 of 28 Old 01-08-2020, 08:30 AM
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Some people will still see rainbow effect with three lasers, but the percentage that do, is a very small subset of those that saw it with projectors that use color wheels.
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post #4 of 28 Old 01-09-2020, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfnz34me View Post
This is a quote from a review of one of these projectors:

"However LG makes the color wheel obsolete with its 3-laser design, it features one red and two blue lasers with one of the blue lasers exciting a phosphor to create pure green light. Since the light source already comprises the three primary colors, there’s no need for the color wheel."

This should answer your question.
Sadly it does not, IMO. For a 1-chip DLP, a dedicated RGB light source does not automatically equal color wheel "less". A 1-chip DLP system, by definition, can only produce a single color image at any moment, that's why a color wheel is used, no matter the light source. Unless the RGB light source itself can cycle On/Off as fast as (or even faster than) a regular color wheel.

So far I only know a LED RGB light source can switch itself faster than a traditional color wheel. Hence in a LED light source 1-chip DLP setup, color wheel is not used. TI has reference design for LED 1-chip setup.

But I couldn't find and 1-chip DLP laser setup without color wheel, even with RGB laser. I can only find some 3-chip setup like this:

https://www.nec-display-solutions.co...nologies.xhtml

That's why I asked the question.

Thanks!

li.

PS: I guess I just repeated the question again!
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post #5 of 28 Old 01-09-2020, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Li On View Post
Sadly it does not, IMO. For a 1-chip DLP, a dedicated RGB light source does not automatically equal color wheel "less". A 1-chip DLP system, by definition, can only produce a single color image at any moment, that's why a color wheel is used, no matter the light source. Unless the RGB light source itself can cycle On/Off as fast as (or even faster than) a regular color wheel.

So far I only know a LED RGB light source can switch itself faster than a traditional color wheel. Hence in a LED light source 1-chip DLP setup, color wheel is not used. TI has reference design for LED 1-chip setup.

But I couldn't find and 1-chip DLP laser setup without color wheel, even with RGB laser. I can only find some 3-chip setup like this:

https://www.nec-display-solutions.co...nologies.xhtml

That's why I asked the question.

Thanks!

li.

PS: I guess I just repeated the question again!
The LG HU85L is single chip and does not have a color wheel.
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post #6 of 28 Old 01-09-2020, 09:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
The LG HU85L is single chip and does not have a color wheel.
Thanks! I know that! I'm not asking which model is single chip and no color wheel! I want to know more technical detail on how is this implemented.

OK, I won't repeat my question again!

Thanks!

li.
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post #7 of 28 Old 01-09-2020, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Li On View Post
Thanks! I know that! I'm not asking which model is single chip and no color wheel! I want to know more technical detail on how is this implemented.

OK, I won't repeat my question again!

Thanks!

li.
I believe we use pwm at several khz to reduce power to laser diodes, so the 1khz for 60p video shouldnt be an issue. Maybe you could provide a source for the technical limitation you're refering too?
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post #8 of 28 Old 01-10-2020, 12:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bdht View Post
I believe we use pwm at several khz to reduce power to laser diodes, so the 1khz for 60p video shouldnt be an issue. Maybe you could provide a source for the technical limitation you're refering too?
Well, I couldn't find reference to this laser diode on/off switching limitation. In fact some reference said laser on/off switching is faster than LED diode! So I suppose you're right that it is indeed switching laser on/off directly (just like using LED light source).

It just seems that all those other single or dual laser projectors, they all use color wheel to generate the final picture. Their laser source seems always on, just like a regular lamp source. Now this self switching laser setup looks like a major breakthrough!

Hopefully there will be more technical information on these new RGB laser 1-chip DLP soon.

Thanks!

li.
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post #9 of 28 Old 01-10-2020, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Li On View Post
It just seems that all those other single or dual laser projectors, they all use color wheel to generate the final picture. Their laser source seems always on, just like a regular lamp source.
With single laser and phosphor it's pretty obvious you have to use color wheel, because it's only one color.

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post #10 of 28 Old 01-10-2020, 06:08 AM
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Here are some diagrams about laser projectors from NEC...

They are from this page and this explains it all in a pretty simple and easy to follow method:
https://www.nec-display-solutions.co...nologies.xhtml









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post #11 of 28 Old 01-10-2020, 06:38 AM
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Probably a silly question, but why can't all three colours be used/shone at once on a single DLP chip?

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post #12 of 28 Old 01-10-2020, 06:46 AM
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Probably a silly question, but why can't all three colours be used/shone at once on a single DLP chip?
The light has to be focused, filtered, and seperated properly by the Prism before it enters the next stage. So I suppose you could build the prism as an extruding object sticking out of the DLP chip itself, but it would still be two separate parts, so it wouldn't accomplish anything. Plus it would be really awkward. It would be like ordering a CPU for a computer and the memory comes attached and you have to insert both as one object. It would be a totally different form factor and it would create unnecessary limitations. It would also break the modularity of the design. The final issue (I believe) would be the light not being separate would cause some loss of control by the hardware of the projector, calibration wouldn't work right.
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post #13 of 28 Old 01-10-2020, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Probably a silly question, but why can't all three colours be used/shone at once on a single DLP chip?
You probably would like different colors to different parts of the picture? Like yellow bananas, red strawberries and blue sky. If they all shine constantly you get a black/white picture.

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post #14 of 28 Old 01-10-2020, 07:08 AM
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I would think the color wheel is what would normally separate the colors, as I don't recall ever seeing a prism in a single chip non-laser DLP?

So I'm guessing because of the uneven amplitude or modulation of the laser after passing through the color wheel, the laser light needs further splitting to achieve the proper wavelength even after the color wheel modified it. So I'm assuming the prism on a single chip LASER is much different than on a 3-LCD or 3-DLP prism in old school projectors.

I would have to look at old-school diagrams to refresh my memory. I'm not in this field, but that is my guess...

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post #15 of 28 Old 01-10-2020, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by MDesigns View Post
You probably would like different colors to different parts of the picture? Like yellow bananas, red strawberries and blue sky. If they all shine constantly you get a black/white picture.
Hi.

You may as well have started your response with a 'DUH!' there..... If I may say, it read like an exasperated physics professor trying to explain to someone how to switch a light on.....that is not really a cool response to a legitimate question. Especially when your final sentence would have said enough, in a non 'how thick are you', sort of way.

I assume you didn't mean it that way, which is why one needs to take time to properly craft a response and make full use of the many smilies on offer.

Anyway back to the question.....

Yes, because all three equal white light, I get that.

But why is it any different with three chip designs then?

All three colours are combined before entering the prism/lens, so why doesn't that come out black and white?#

In fact why, when recombining the colours at any point, do they not just come out as white?

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post #16 of 28 Old 01-10-2020, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
In fact when recombining the colours at any point, do they not just come out as white?
You actually had a good point believe it or not. Because as far as I know, an old school NON-LASER Single Chip DLP does not use a prism.
Whereas according to those diagrams, a single chip DLP laser uses a prism and a color wheel (which is kind of odd).

Unless it's a mistake in the diagram.
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post #17 of 28 Old 01-10-2020, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
I would think the color wheel is what would normally separate the colors, as I don't recall ever seeing a prism in a single chip non-laser DLP?

So I'm guessing because of the uneven amplitude or modulation of the laser after passing through the color wheel, the laser light needs further splitting to achieve the proper wavelength even after the color wheel modified it. So I'm assuming the prism on a single chip LASER is much different than on a 3-LCD or 3-DLP prism in old school projectors.

I would have to look at old-school diagrams to refresh my memory. I'm not in this field, but that is my guess...
Thank you. Yes, that makes sense. Clever bits of kit when you think about it!

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post #18 of 28 Old 01-10-2020, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
You actually had a good point believe it or not. Because as far as I know, an old school NON-LASER Single Chip DLP does not use a prism.
Whereas according to those diagrams, a single chip DLP laser uses a prism and a color wheel (which is kind of odd).

Unless it's a mistake in the diagram.
Indeed. There is a reason for all these different configurations and I am just asking legit questions that will (hopefully) help educate all in the answers received.

I am not afraid to ask questions that may seem dumb to some, as you don't learn anything by keeping quiet!

In fact who knows what you may awaken in someone who previously 'didn't get it' by simply answering a question.

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post #19 of 28 Old 01-10-2020, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Hi.



You may as well have started your response with a 'DUH!' there..... If I may say, it read like an exasperated physics professor trying to explain to someone how to switch a light on.....that is not really a cool response to a legitimate question. Especially when your final sentence would have said enough, in a non 'how thick are you', sort of way.



I assume you didn't mean it that way, which is why one needs to take time to properly craft a response and make full use of the many smilies on offer.



Anyway back to the question.....



Yes, because all three equal white light, I get that.



But why is it any different with three chip designs then?



All three colours are combined before entering the prism/lens, so why doesn't that come out black and white?#



In fact why, when recombining the colours at any point, do they not just come out as white?
Sorry! Didn't mean it in any bad way

In a 3-chip unit the different chips handle what part of the picture needs what color. Red chip only passes red color forward, blue chip for blue parts... For full white all chips pass the colors and combined its white.

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post #20 of 28 Old 01-10-2020, 07:44 AM
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It appears to be a TIR prism in the single chip laser DLP, it's a corrective lens more than it is a typical optical prism.

It balances and focuses the light uniformity, but does not appear to have anything to do with color splitting.

In a 3-chip DLP it uses an optical color-splitting prism known as a dichroic/trichroic prism (or multiple dichroics maybe). Prisms do not necessarily split color wavelengths, the design is such as they are splitting something in the light, but not necessarily always the color. From some googling, it appears the "industry term" of the standard color-splitting prism called a Philips prism, I'm guessing because Philips polished the design.

From my basic understanding of lenses from what I've read, I believe the TIR prism is more like a lens than a standard optical prism.
The only reason they call it a prism is likely due to the shape and amplitude and light altering characteristics, but it really sounds more like a lens.



BTW, the reason the color splitting cube is still a type of prism is because there are glass elements inside there that are prism shaped that disperse and split the colors, it's just hard to tell from the above picture, but the color splitting is actually made up of complex inner glass shapes.
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post #21 of 28 Old 01-10-2020, 08:02 AM
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Here is the reason for the TIR prism and the answer to our question, I was in the ballpark, says it can be deployed in ANY single chip or 3 chip design. It's basically just an image enhancer. They probably use it on a Laser DLP more commonly as a corrective measure as some side effect the laser causes, or possibly because the Laser DLP's tend to be in a slightly higher price category allowing higher quality components. I'm guessing it's a way of further cleaning things up before the light hits the DMD.

For single chips that do not use this type of prism, I would imagine they are using a different type of lens element in the first element of the lens to compensate.

It lists why they use it in these PDFs.

http://www.innovationsinoptics.com/n...luminators.pdf
http://www.loreti.it/Download/PDF/DMD/140RE.pdf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDesigns View Post
Sorry! Didn't mean it in any bad way

In a 3-chip unit the different chips handle what part of the picture needs what color. Red chip only passes red color forward, blue chip for blue parts... For full white all chips pass the colors and combined its white.

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Lol. No worries.



So that is caused by the colour filters in front of each panel then I am guessing?

All the panels on Sony PJs are identical (not colour specific even though they may be labelled as such) so the colour filters are doing the job you describe.

Does that sound correct?
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In optics, prisms are basically like Networking Switches and routers. They allow you to split things up, change stuff around, then converge it back together. The polarizers, filters, and lenses are kind of like firewalls that clean up the traffic (not in a security sense, but in an optical 'junk aberration or color issues' sense).

In a 3 chip, the light is converged and split at a different point in the process. Each color is given its own chip to pass light through simultaneously, whether that be the LCD panel or the DLP chip to create the 3 separate pixel grids. This is why they have convergence and sharpness issues.

Whereas the single-chip DLP passes through one chip and the color wheel simulates the ability to have separate colors.

As far as the LCD filters and polarizers, that is just used in combination with the lenses to optimize and create the proper colors, but it's not anything independant that disallows the need for prisms.
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post #24 of 28 Old 01-10-2020, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Lol. No worries.







So that is caused by the colour filters in front of each panel then I am guessing?



All the panels on Sony PJs are identical (not colour specific even though they may be labelled as such) so the colour filters are doing the job you describe.



Does that sound correct?
Yes, you are correct. The colour filters do the job in current units.

If JVC and Sony started to use RGB leds or lasers, they wouldn't need the filters. Just point each light source to proper panel. Sounds too easy, dunno why they havent done it yet

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post #25 of 28 Old 01-10-2020, 08:36 AM
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There is still always going to be filtering involved when it comes to colors, the differences will be in how or where it is filtered. Filters are often there to conform the light into the proper uniformity and gamut. So even though some type of light might be more pure in response to a color gamut, it may not reach all different gamuts as well, or whatever... It could change the requirements in the way the lens works, or they may have to add a different lens in the projector to counter some other issue.

There is no free lunch, no tech is really just do this or that and it solves all problems in this stuff, even though it's pitched that way in the forums.
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Originally Posted by MDesigns View Post
Yes, you are correct. The colour filters do the job in current units.

If JVC and Sony started to use RGB leds or lasers, they wouldn't need the filters. Just point each light source to proper panel. Sounds too easy, dunno why they havent done it yet

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I am guessing they haven't done this in consumer units as yet, because of the size of the chassis required using current tech to combat heat and size of parts.

Or maybe they are just holding it back.....

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post #27 of 28 Old 01-10-2020, 08:39 AM
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I am guessing they haven't done this in consumer units as yet, because of the size of the chassis required using current tech to combat heat and size of parts.

Or maybe they are just holding it back.....
Specific types of lasers aside....

The reason they don't put LED and Laser into the lower-end units is because of oligopolistic market control and profitability.
The same reason Apple started gluing in batteries in laptops and making things brittle where if you try to work on it, it breaks.
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post #28 of 28 Old 01-10-2020, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Specific types of lasers aside....

The reason they don't put LED and Laser into the lower-end units is because of oligopolistic market control and profitability.
The same reason Apple started gluing in batteries in laptops and making things brittle where if you try to work on it, it breaks.
Indeed.

No profitability in bringing out the best display you can actually currently make, when you can eek out improvements over several years and sell more units.

Not much future in such a wasteful way of doing things now, I feel.

We all have to be less wasteful in every conceivable way that we have control over now.

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. It matters that you don’t just give up."
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