Need help with finding a 4k projector for my 2.39 CIH screen - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 117 Old 01-08-2020, 05:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys, I need some help here.

I currently own a Panasonic AE8000u. It is long in the tooth (2012). And I want an upgrade to 4k.

The trick is...I have a 145" diagonal 2.35:1 screen. And the AE8000u allows me to change between 16:9 and a zoomed out 2.35:1 ratio which fills my 2.35:1 screen. It is an excellent feature of that projector.

I have been looking at 4k projectors today. And I can't find one that will fill my 145" screen in the 2.35:1 ratio, at roughly a 14'2" to 14'8" throw (depends on projector size).

EDIT: Measurement update....Screen to lens of my Panasonic is 15'1". Screen to wall is 16'-6".


My budget is anything under $10,000.

Can anyone help me out? Even point me in the right direction/link? Do I need to use an anamorphic lens? I don't know much about this stuff, though I am trying to get up to speed.

Thanks!!

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post #2 of 117 Old 01-08-2020, 05:21 PM
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[quote=HudsonK;59069150]Hi guys, I need some help here.



I currently own a Panasonic AE8000u. It is long in the tooth (2012). And I want an upgrade to 4k.



The trick is...I have a 144" diagonal 2.39:1 screen. And the AE8000u allows me to change between 16:9 and a zoomed out 2.39:1 ratio which fills my 2.39:1 screen. It is an excellent feature of that projector.



I have been looking at 4k projectors today. And I can't find one that will fill my 144" screen in the 2.39:1 ratio, at roughly a 14'2" to 14'8" throw (depends on projector size).



My budget is anything under $10,000.



Can anyone help me out? Even point me in the right direction/link? Do I need to use an anamorphic lens? I don't know much about this stuff, though I am trying to get up to speed.



Thanks!![/quote @Mike Garrett will the JVC RS2000 allow you to do what the poster is looking for? Thanks in advance for your assistance.

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post #3 of 117 Old 01-08-2020, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HudsonK View Post
Hi guys, I need some help here.

I currently own a Panasonic AE8000u. It is long in the tooth (2012). And I want an upgrade to 4k.

The trick is...I have a 144" diagonal 2.39:1 screen. And the AE8000u allows me to change between 16:9 and a zoomed out 2.39:1 ratio which fills my 2.39:1 screen. It is an excellent feature of that projector.

I have been looking at 4k projectors today. And I can't find one that will fill my 144" screen in the 2.39:1 ratio, at roughly a 14'2" to 14'8" throw (depends on projector size).

My budget is anything under $10,000.

Can anyone help me out? Even point me in the right direction/link? Do I need to use an anamorphic lens? I don't know much about this stuff, though I am trying to get up to speed.

Thanks!!
What's required is a projector with motorized lenses with memory with a throw range of a minimum 1.39x. The PT-AE8000 has a minimum throw range of 1.35x.

144" is a bit on the large size.


What is the fabric of the screen, and/or the gain?
Room environment? Ambient light, room treatment, color of walls.
An anamorphic lens will effectively increase the brightness by around 30% (for scope video, which is what is being used here). But they can be expensive.


There are a few options. Depends on how much you want to spend.

The Epson 6050UB is bright enough for 144" without an A lens. It's got good blacks, but it's faux 4K with only around 4 million pixels vs. around 8 million on other faux 4K or native 4K units.
Some people are fine with the Epson, but for others the pixel fill is not enough. Two factors that can contribute is seating distance and visual acuity, as well as personal preference.

What is the seating distance?

Some picture of the 6050UB from different distances: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...l#post57908030

JVC NX5. Might not be bright enough without an A lens, but it's user specific.
A good option here is to purchase B stock of NX5:

Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Email Mike Garrett or Craig from this forum and ask them if they can put you on a waiting list for any B-stocks. The NX-5 B-stocks are going to be more than the Epson, about 1/3rd more. They are not going to be easy to come by, but they come in waves, you'll need patience. They might be able to give you a generalized estimate on how long they may get some back in...
JVC NX7. An upgraded version of the NX5.

Or used previous faux 4K JVC.

[QUOTE=coderguy;59040064]Keep an eye out for a used JVC RS-400/420/440 in the classifieds... The older JVC's prior to the RS-400 are not that good for a 120".

If you are not familiar with the JVC lineup, the most recent ones are the NX series (5/7/9), and the previous generation was the JVC RS-440/540/640. Then before that the 420's and 400's.
/QUOTE]

LE:
And some models from the Sony 4K lineup.

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post #4 of 117 Old 01-08-2020, 05:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks much, guys. I really appreciate it.

Thank you so so much, @noob00224 . I skipped a lot of details!

Yes, I definitely need a motorized lens with memory.

I have a fixed Carada screen. 1.0 gain. Their regular 'bright white', I think it was called. 144" diag. 11'1" wide. Seating position at the eyes is 12'8". A bit tight for the screen size I guess, when it is not in 16:9, and full scope.

It is in a basement HT. Absolutely no ambient light, and flat black painted ceilings, black carpet. Deep dark maroon walls, flat paint also.

I will look into your options. I was starting to read about JVC's, and about the NX7, but at projector central's throw calculator, it seemed I would not be able to fill my screen. Maybe a new smaller screen is going to be imperative with my room depth only 15 and a half feet or so. It would be a 14'1" throw I think for a shelf-mounted JVC, given that they are 20 inches deep, not including the plug at the back, if that's where it is...

Money really is not a factor other than to keep it reasonable around the 10k mark. If I have to get an anamorphic lens, I am sure I will put money into that too. Not up on it yet. But I know they can be a lot.

Cheers!!


EDIT: Back wall to screen which is recessed is 16'6"...

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post #5 of 117 Old 01-08-2020, 06:07 PM
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I think in a pure bat cave, it will be somewhat bright enough with the aperture full open, but your kind of borderline at that screen size. I would go down to 130" if you are planning a JVC, 140" absolute max. That is unless you don't mind running in HIGH lamp mode, which is kind of loud, but may not bother you (could though).

Smaller screen and the NX-5 or NX-7 for best picture quality, the Epson as an alternative if you want max brightness.

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post #6 of 117 Old 01-08-2020, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi @coderguy , and thank you. From the projector central calculator, the max I could do would be around 143" 2.39:1. I think my throw would be almost right on 14'-9" given the 20" of the PJ plus plug space at the back. That is so damned close to my 144". But not enough!!

At any rate, what do I do about masking? The Panasonic AE8000u blocked the black bars...
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post #7 of 117 Old 01-08-2020, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HudsonK View Post
Hi guys, I need some help here.

I currently own a Panasonic AE8000u. It is long in the tooth (2012). And I want an upgrade to 4k.

The trick is...I have a 144" diagonal 2.39:1 screen. And the AE8000u allows me to change between 16:9 and a zoomed out 2.39:1 ratio which fills my 2.39:1 screen. It is an excellent feature of that projector.

I have been looking at 4k projectors today. And I can't find one that will fill my 144" screen in the 2.39:1 ratio, at roughly a 14'2" to 14'8" throw (depends on projector size).

My budget is anything under $10,000.

Can anyone help me out? Even point me in the right direction/link? Do I need to use an anamorphic lens? I don't know much about this stuff, though I am trying to get up to speed.

Thanks!!
I would remeasure your throw distance, because I am seeing an AE8000U needing 14'-11" minimum to fill a 133" wide screen. The JVC RS2000 can fill a 144" diagonal 2.39 from 14'11", if you use zoom function. The Epson 5050 and 6050 can throw 144" diagonal 2.39 from 15'. Only 1" longer throw. I would look at those.
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post #8 of 117 Old 01-08-2020, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HudsonK View Post
Hi @coderguy , and thank you. From the projector central calculator, the max I could do would be around 143" 2.39:1. I think my throw would be almost right on 14'-9" given the 20" of the PJ plus plug space at the back. That is so damned close to my 144". But not enough!!

At any rate, what do I do about masking? The Panasonic AE8000u blocked the black bars...
The JVCs have masking you can adjust.

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post #9 of 117 Old 01-08-2020, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HudsonK View Post
Thanks much, guys. I really appreciate it.

Thank you so so much, @noob00224 . I skipped a lot of details!

Yes, I definitely need a motorized lens with memory.

I have a fixed Carada screen. 1.0 gain. Their regular 'bright white', I think it was called. 144" diag. 11'1" wide. Seating position at the eyes is 12'8". A bit tight for the screen size I guess, when it is not in 16:9, and full scope.

It is in a basement HT. Absolutely no ambient light, and flat black painted ceilings, black carpet. Deep dark maroon walls, flat paint also.

I will look into your options. I was starting to read about JVC's, and about the NX7, but at projector central's throw calculator, it seemed I would not be able to fill my screen. Maybe a new smaller screen is going to be imperative with my room depth only 15 and a half feet or so. It would be a 14'1" throw I think for a shelf-mounted JVC, given that they are 20 inches deep, not including the plug at the back, if that's where it is...

Money really is not a factor other than to keep it reasonable around the 10k mark. If I have to get an anamorphic lens, I am sure I will put money into that too. Not up on it yet. But I know they can be a lot.

Cheers!!


EDIT: Back wall to screen which is recessed is 16'7"...
A 144" screen in 2.39:1 format has a width of 132.8".
The JVC NX7 has a minimum throw of 1.36x.
1.36 x 132.8 = 180.6"= 15.05'
The projector is 20" long, with 5" at the back makes 25"/2.08'.
Distance from screen to after cables 17.13'.

The PC calculator has as format 1.9:1 (which should not be changed since this is the native resolution/ratio).
A 144" screen in 2.39:1 format has a width of 132.8".
A 1.9:1 screen with 132.8" width is 150.1" diagonal. If 150" is inputted in PC calculator the result is 14'-11". I'd take the math over PC calculator.

Screen dimension calculator: https://www.draperinc.com/projection...alculator.aspx or http://screen-size.info/

For a new lens yes, but a used one might be a lot less. But I'll let others that have had them elaborate further.


Otherwise as coderguy said, the Epson for more brightness or JVC for better PQ.
But maybe you could have both.
To keep the same screen size and a JVC a screen with a 1.3 gain could be used. Or a lens. A screen would be easier since lenses can potentially have a negative impact on picture quality, at least I think they do.

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Originally Posted by ChldsPlay View Post
The JVCs have masking you can adjust.
Hi @Mike Garrett . Thanks very much! I was just going to edit my posts for measurements. Screen to lens of my panny is 15'1". Screen to wall is 16'-6". I was going off memory before, and my screen is recessed...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi @ChldsPlay . Thanks so much!! So I would not have to mess with anamorphic lenses? I can do exactly what my Panasonic did with zooming out and digital masking??

I see you have the NX7. How do you feel about it? What did you go to it from?
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post #11 of 117 Old 01-08-2020, 06:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you @noob00224 . I am wrapping my noggin around your posts. I updated my measurement from the back wall to the screen. It's 16'-6". Gonna hit the calculator and try to do maths in a few minutes...
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post #12 of 117 Old 01-08-2020, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HudsonK View Post
Thanks so much!! So I would not have to mess with anamorphic lenses? I can do exactly what my Panasonic did with zooming out and digital masking??

I see you have the NX7. How do you feel about it? What did you go to it from?
Well, the lens may be useful for other areas (brightness/throw - I'm not sure, I don't use one), but as far as masking, it's not needed. You can switch between 1.85 and 2.39 (etc) very easily (though, it's a little slower than the Panny since it actually moves the lens and isn't done entirely digitally).

I've had some bad luck with the two units I've had thus far, but that happens. The picture is amazing. A HUGE step up over the AE8000, which I also had before the JVC.
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post #13 of 117 Old 01-08-2020, 06:53 PM - Thread Starter
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@ChldsPlay Awesome. I have pulled up a couple of reviews. I will dig into them in a bit. Thanks, man! So neat you were on the same PJ! =)
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post #14 of 117 Old 01-08-2020, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HudsonK View Post
Thank you @noob00224 . I am wrapping my noggin around your posts. I updated my measurement from the back wall to the screen. It's 16'-6". Gonna hit the calculator and try to do maths in a few minutes...
Projector Central calculator rounds up numbers, better to rely on math. The calculator is built on that math.
All you need is the NX7's minimum throw range which is 1.36x and the width of the screen you want.
Multiply the two and that is the throw distance.

For a 1.3 gain screen make a new thread here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-screens/
Or check this one out:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...jvc-x790r.html
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post #15 of 117 Old 01-08-2020, 06:59 PM
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@HudsonK
There is probably no reason to replace the screen, if the screen is too big after receiving the projector (even after you try to get extra wiggle room), then just create 2 velvet panels and make it overlap trim the edges. Do it on both sides of the screen (that's why I say 2) so it will look balanced. You could also apply velvet tape to the edge and just expand the inner border if you want, but that would be a permanent change and damage the screen, plus one minor slip up with the tape and it could destroy the screen.

The masking is pure digital as they said, so it won't actually block the black bars, but it will just blackout any content at the edge and turn colored content into black bars. The only time I use the digital masking feature is if I want to crop the top and bottom or left and right sides on my scope to make some abnormal aspect ratio fit better to my magnetic masking panels. Though once I get the motorized masking in place, I figure I probably won't even use it anymore ever. So the masking is useful, but not that useful, not in the way some people think of it as being useful anyhow. The masking does not help with the black bars in the normal sense of the meaning.

As far as masking panels go, well it's true it's not ABSOLUTELY needed, but it does add that extra touch of perfection which I prefer over leaving the sides open.

You should look in the Blacker is Better thread for masking ideas. Personally, I am moving away from the manual masking panels (right now I just manually attach cardboard wrapped in velvet with magnets to my screen), but I'm going to implement a motorized masking setup with actuators. It should be slightly easier for us to do motorized (horizontal) on a scope than it would be having to go vertical with a 16:9. I haven't finished the design or tested it, but should get to it within a few weeks or so. Here is my current preliminary design, I'm going to try to stick to buying "synchronized" dual actuators so I can wire them into one central remote block, but Markmon1's thread has a way to do the synchronization from scratch by adding some parts.

Blacker is Better thread
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...image-237.html

Here is Markmon's thread where he went all out with motorized masking, but he is showing 16:9 masked vertically to scope, ours is the opposite (we use horizontal masking)...
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...c-masking.html
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Last edited by coderguy; 01-08-2020 at 07:33 PM.
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post #16 of 117 Old 01-08-2020, 07:00 PM - Thread Starter
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@noob00224 You are awesome. So many thanks! It's hard to get back up to speed after almost 8 years. And all of you are helping me sooo much.
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post #17 of 117 Old 01-08-2020, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
I think in a pure bat cave, it will be somewhat bright enough with the aperture full open, but your kind of borderline at that screen size. I would go down to 130" if you are planning a JVC, 140" absolute max. That is unless you don't mind running in HIGH lamp mode, which is kind of loud, but may not bother you (could though).
I have 144" 2.39 screen Seymour Centerstage XD. My RS1000 lights it up nicely in bat cave in low lamp. If you can fill the screen you will be fine. Add a Paladin lens and it will rock.
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post #18 of 117 Old 01-08-2020, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
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@coderguy - sweet man, thanks. I will check that out. I was looking into motorized curtains before...

@Willie - Thanks for the info! I think I will be compromised by my throw and fall short of fitting my current 144" though, unless I put a hole in the wall and back it up (unfinished behind wall). The Paladin lens is insanely expensive! Wow...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie View Post
I have 144" 2.39 screen Seymour Centerstage XD. My RS1000 lights it up nicely in bat cave in low lamp. If you can fill the screen you will be fine. Add a Paladin lens and it will rock.
There is a big range of brightness we can watch in any darkened room, even 8-10 fL isn't too bad if you just use a brighter gamma curve. However, there is also user preference and pop in the image, so on that note, yes it's bright enough for most in a pure bat cave, but maybe not for all at that size (maybe half the people, who knows).

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post #20 of 117 Old 01-08-2020, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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@coderguy - Right. Well, the cool thing is, I can get the PJ and worry about it later. If I have to change the screen, well, I'll just do it. I've gotta make a 4k PJ work. This Panny is not satisfying me any more. I can get the PJ and test the look at different sizes, and consider gain on a new one also.
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Originally Posted by HudsonK View Post
@coderguy - Right. Well, the cool thing is, I can get the PJ and worry about it later. If I have to change the screen, well, I'll just do it. I've gotta make a 4k PJ work. This Panny is not satisfying me any more. I can get the PJ and test the look at different sizes, and consider gain on a new one also.
It will be worth it, the step up from the Panny will be nothing short of amazing. I went from an older to a newer JVC (not the NX series though, the RS-420), and even then the step up was pretty big, especially in brightness mainly. I'm sure my step up would have been even slightly bigger if I had gone straight to the NX series, but coming from a Panny it will be a huge difference.
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post #22 of 117 Old 01-08-2020, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by HudsonK View Post
@coderguy - sweet man, thanks. I will check that out. I was looking into motorized curtains before...

@Willie - Thanks for the info! I think I will be compromised by my throw and fall short of fitting my current 144" though, unless I put a hole in the wall and back it up (unfinished behind wall). The Paladin lens is insanely expensive! Wow...
Sorry the math was off in the post above.
For that 144" screen the required distance would be 15.05'
The projector is 20" long, with 5" at the back makes 25"/2.08'.
Distance from screen to after cables 17.13'.

If screen to wall is 16'6" then you need 7.56" more for that screen. This is with the 5 inches at the back of the projector.

16'6" = 198'
Without the projector and cables (25") = 173"
173 / 1.36 = 127.2" - this is the top width of a screen with the NX7.
A 2.39:1 screen with a width of 127.2" has a diagonal of 137.9".
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post #23 of 117 Old 01-08-2020, 07:41 PM - Thread Starter
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@coderguy - Awesome! Thanks for the confidence.

@noob00224 - You are the freaking MAN. I was just going to try to noodle over all of that. You are absolutely fantastic. Now I know exactly what must be done in terms of the screen.


And I'd like to thank EVERYONE who has chimed in thus far. I am 8 years out of knowing what the hell I am doing. And this thread has got me to exactly where I need to be in a couple of short hours. Now its down to reading some reviews, and probably ordering a new screen. LOL. If I am gonna dump 9k+ on a PJ, then what's another $12-1500 for a new fixed 2.39:1...

Thank you, thank you thank you! This community is remarkable....

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post #24 of 117 Old 01-08-2020, 07:46 PM
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And I'd like to thank EVERYONE who has chimed in thus far. I am 8 years out of knowing what the hell I am doing. And this thread has got me to exactly where I need to be in a couple of short hours. Now its down to reading some reviews, and probably ordering a new screen. LOL. If I am gonna dump 9k+ on a PJ, then what's another $12-1500 for a new fixed 2.39:1...
Why a new screen, because you want the borders or black trim to be perfect?
I suppose if you can sell the screen and get your money back, then ordering a new screen is easier?

Personally, I'd use the velvet masking tape and just be careful. You can make it look professional just like it came that way with a wider border, depending how you do it and your screen design. I just tell people of the dangers in using the tape because you can slip up, but also depends how sticky the screen material is or how easily damaged. I've done all this before, and had success with changing the screen size. Of course making panels is safer, but I didn't have any problems and I even did the taping by myself without a helper (though I recommend 2 people for certain).

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@coderguy - Ok. I will see what it comes down to with the current screen. How wide is the tape? I will be losing 6 inches diagonal according to Noob. Not sure yet what than means on W & H.

The Carada has a really nice 3.5" to 4" frame with excellent black-out material. Nothing shows on it.

I could sell the screen, yes. Even give my current setup to a friend if someone has the room...
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If you are using a Panny 8000, you are use to less brightness than the JVC RS2000/N7. The JVC will be a huge upgrade and fits under your $10K budget.
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@blee0120 - Thanks, Blee! Looking forward to getting into those numbers. I think I am around 1500 hours on my bulb. Shocking that is all after 7+ years. But I recently switched to High from Low, and still no longer impressed.
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@blee0120 - Thanks, Blee! Looking forward to getting into those numbers. I think I am around 1500 hours on my bulb. Shocking that is all after 7+ years. But I recently switched to High from Low, and still no longer impressed.
Hopefully you can figure out the screen because you a little under but if you can get the RS2000/N7, you'll be impressed. I'm going to upgrade my screen to 130in in a few months, so I bet your big screen is incredible.
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post #29 of 117 Old 01-08-2020, 08:02 PM - Thread Starter
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@blee0120 - Very cool! Hope you love your new screen. Yeah I love the impact of the 144". It's great. If I slip to 136 I will still be happy. Especially since I've gone 8 years without an upgrade. It sounds like this will be a big step...
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post #30 of 117 Old 01-08-2020, 08:12 PM
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@coderguy - Ok. I will see what it comes down to with the current screen. How wide is the tape? I will be losing 6 inches diagonal according to Noob. Not sure yet what than means on W & H. The Carada has a really nice 3.5" to 4" frame with excellent black-out material. Nothing shows on it.

I could sell the screen, yes. Even give my current setup to a friend if someone has the room...
I don't think you'll know exactly until after you buy the projector and set it up. There are manufacturer variances in the lens and shift amount, not sure if it's significant with that model. Also, the newer JVC models have a slightly different aspect due to the size of the Native 4k panels, so they project a small black bar border I believe (others would know more that own the NX series). You can theoretically use digital zoom maybe a tiny bit to fill in the gap I think, but then you'd be scaling the pixels, not sure if that's built into the newer JVC's or not as a feature. You'd still probably fall short a few inches though.

That's 6 inches in width if we are to go by the numbers, so 3" on each side edge, and 2" on each top/bottom edge. The tape is wide enough to fix that, as I know you can find the tape in 4.5" widths, depending on how much wrapping you do over the existing border or if you want to just extend the border by lining the tape up to the edge of where the Carada border starts. I think even wider 5" to 6" width tape exists, though harder to find. The material is very dark just like your screen border, it's basically close to triple black velvet (not quite as dark, but close enough, 95% as dark). I think it is essentially the same material these use for screen borders, but there are variances in the exact types.

They also make longer sticky sheets of the stuff for application in jewerly displays and stuff (I think some comes in uncut rolls, in that case it can be wide and long as you need), or you can also use strips of cardboard and glue triple black velvet to the cardboard strips, then apply the cardboard strips to the border in some fashion, but using the tape or jewelry strips is probably easier.

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