Epson 6050UB vs JVC NX5/NX7 - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by pdoherty972 View Post
Doesn’t the NX5 get the tone mapping also?

So are you saying the benefits of the NX7 vs NX5 (and maybe the 6050UB) are of little benefit due to my seating distance?
Yes, the NX5 does have the tone mapping. Whether or not you can see the difference in resolution from your seating position, you'd still get the benefit of the image calmness compared to eshift. Eshift (pixel shifting) adds a bit of image noice that's noticeable when you compare the 2. I never noticed it until I saw both units side by side. The 4K panels offer a more film-like image imo.
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post #32 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by talon95 View Post
Well obviously my opinion is slanted by having bad experiences with my 540. It's not just the DI either.
I understand, issues can happen with these projectors. Don't even get me started on Epson though, that is the least reliable, but sure even an Epson can run perfectly. However, people putting high hours on Epsons are much more likely to have more serious issues than a DI problem, like dust blobs or total power failure. The dust blobs can be fixed if someone doesn't mind taking the projector apart, but it's a lot of work.

I'm not trying to be anti-NX or anything, it's just his specific case, I'm trying to give honest advice in here rather than just tell people the latest and greatest. It would help if I had the NX to compare myself, but I don't, but I have compared the attribute differences and I know that sharpness isn't important at his seating distance.

120" at 12', then 4k just barely becomes visible but borderline, and that is only with Native 4k. Pseudo 4k or upscaled, you need to be about 10' compared to the average bluray on 120" screen to see a difference, 8' is where the difference starts getting BIG.

If he's not going for absolute highest contrast above all else, than NX-5 or NX-7 makes sense I suppose, if he wants to spend the extra money.

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post #33 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by pdoherty972 View Post
Doesn’t the NX5 get the tone mapping also?



So are you saying the benefits of the NX7 vs NX5 (and maybe the 6050UB) are of little benefit due to my seating distance?
The 540 or any of the previous generation JVC projectors had amazing contrast and could achieve good HDR with custom gamma curves. Any you would need several custom gamma curves depending on the brightness of the original content. For tinkerers this would be fun. If you want great set and forget HDR look at the JVC true 4k projectors. My Epson 6050 does a great job with HDR. But it is not dynamic tone mapping. Depending upon the source I have to move the slider, sometimes even during the viewing, several times because the mastering and lighting is different for each scene. JVC has the DTM which is doing that for you automatically no matter the content it is being fed. The further back you sit the less impact sharpness and resolution will have on your perception of the image. Contrast affects all areas of picture quality and the difference is noticeable from any viewing distance. You have to decide what features are most important to you within your budget.

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post #34 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by jbn008 View Post
Yes, the NX5 does have the tone mapping. Whether or not you can see the difference in resolution from your seating position, you'd still get the benefit of the image calmness compared to eshift. Eshift (pixel shifting) adds a bit of image noice that's noticeable when you compare the 2. I never noticed it until I saw both units side by side. The 4K panels offer a more film-like image imo.
That is not likely he's going to see added image noise on clean content at 4k from 12-14' back compared to a standard JVC, not on clean content. I cannot speak to content that has noise issues, like certain movies. Now that I'd have no idea, but basing a decision to go with a different PJ because of some supposed less noisy image is a bit of a stretch. I mean I've seen enough projectors to know the max level of cleanliness you can obtain, so I don't want to hear the argument that I don't have an NX projector to compare in front of me. I heard that before in the past, and I was right before anyhow without having one in my room.

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post #35 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by ALRLIFE View Post
I also owned a JVC 790R and I would not recommend it. The eshift JVC models look soft next to the NX5/NX7 and the gap in contrast is not much when you see them in person.
Sharpness is completely dependent upon seating distance, and that is completely untrue at his seating distance.

The gap in contrast between an RS-540 and NX-5 is quite a lot, even the gap between an RS-45 and a JVC RS-420 I can see it.
You can see differences in contrast as little as 25% (barely), 50% (usually), double (really easy).

The RS-540 can do triple to quadruple the native depending which measurements you believe.

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post #36 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 10:05 AM
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You can believe what you want, but there is a noise associated with 1080p panels shifting to produce a 4K image. Whether it's noticeable from 12 to 14 feet away depends on the individual. I was simply stating that there are differences between the 2 models, but only they can decide if those differences are worth the upgrade.
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post #37 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 10:08 AM
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This forum is over-statement city at times, there has always been differing noise on different projectors. Noise isn't a good reason to choose one projector over another, and stuff doesn't become magically visible only after someone owns another projector. I've seen cleaner projectors than a JVC, but on reference level content, it isn't going to be much and seating distance makes noise less because the noise is tiny.

Also, not sure how reliably anyone truly compared image noise, as that's a complicated thing to compare due to gamma variances.

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post #38 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ALRLIFE View Post
And once again i ask, have you seen any of the NX series in person? And have you directly compared them to the older 5 and 7 eshift series? I notice you like to debate differences in projectors that you have not demoed or owned in many different threads. I saw this pattern in the Benq LK threads alot.
Have you owned the NX series?

First of all, I have seen over 50 projectors, and do not need to see the NX projectors because I've seen commercial projectors that are much much much sharper. I don't have the ability to A/B, and I can tell you MOST people in here don't A/B properly anyhow, like not all but most.

You cannot go see a demo of the projectors to know, I've seen a demo room with the NX-5, but I didn't bother to look at it because it wasn't setup in an A/B and the room wasn't any good. So no I didn't even bother.

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post #39 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 10:15 AM
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[quote=ALRLIFE;59122506]There is definitely image noise for 1080P pixel shifters on 4k content. However certain members are going by comparing specs online without any first hand experience on projectors for which they are giving opinions.[/quote @coderguy has viewed and owned probably around 60 to 80 projectors in the last ten years. He does have extensive experience and knowledge of what makes an image appear sharp and detailed. I have appreciated his opinions through the years even I don't always agree with them. Trying to minimize anyone's opinion because they don't own the projector only weakens your argument. I know plenty of mechanics who don't own a Porsche or a Lamborghini but could tell you all the key performance attributes to compare when deciding which one makes sense for each individual driver. Then they would tell you to always go drive one for yourself before you buy. I think the OP Needs to go do some test driving of projectors if at all possible.

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post #40 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Have you owned the NX series?

First of all, I have seen over 50 projectors, and do not need to see the NX projectors because I've seen commercial projectors that are much much much sharper. I don't have the ability to A/B, and I can tell you MOST people in here don't A/B properly anyhow, like not all but most.

You cannot go see a demo of the projectors to know, I've seen a demo room with the NX-5, but I didn't bother to look at it because it wasn't setup in an A/B and the room wasn't any good. So no I didn't even bother.
Well i have seen both side by side, and have owned the NX7, NX5, RS520, RS440, RS500, RS420, RS400, RS4910, all the way back to the RS1. And I can tell you there is a difference between the 4K and eshift models when it comes to 4K image noise. I'm not saying the the eshift units don't look great, but there is a difference when displaying a true UHD image.
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post #41 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 10:20 AM
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Well i have seen both side by side, and have owned the NX7, NX5, RS520, RS440, RS500, RS420, RS400, RS4910, all the way back to the RS1. And I can tell you there is a difference between the 4K and eshift models when it comes to 4K image noise. I'm not saying the the eshift units don't look great, but there is a difference when displaying a true UHD image.
That's fine but image noise just isn't usually a good 'decision' attribute, this would be unique in that case.

Going to demo units also isn't very easy, there are too many factors in dealer demos that unless you are able to control the demo, it won't help. Plus there is pressure tactics to buy when you setup custom demos. There are way more Sony's in demo rooms than JVC's, at least there used to be, not sure about lately.

More than not if someone goes to view demos, the impressions they are left with are often incorrect, unless the demo was expertly done and they spent enough time with the projectors. Really takes 30 minutes even for an expert to see stuff well, much less a rookie. Can take hours in the latter case.

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post #42 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 10:23 AM
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I don't agree, because I know the max level of cleanliness achievable on a projected image, and it's a lot less important than contrast. I don't need to see specific projectors to know this.

There are many projectors cleaner than the JVC's, but it's not a good excuse to choose them over contrast.

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post #43 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by ALRLIFE View Post
Yep. This is fairly easy to ascertain for anyone who has seen these units in person.
No it's not, image noise is the most complicated metric to compare between 2 projectors. It's far far far harder than anything else to get accurately.

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post #44 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 10:31 AM
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No it's not, image noise is the most complicated metric to compare between 2 projectors. It's far far far harder than anything else to get accurately.
let's agree to disagree because this is going nowhere. the original poster can do their own comparisons.
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post #45 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 10:33 AM
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let's agree to disagree because this is going nowhere. the original poster can do their own comparisons.
We agree to disagree, but image noise is hard to compare, ask anyone that compares projectors professionally. I've never gravitated towards image noise being a crucial decision making factor, it might be for some that are uniquely sensitive to it.

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post #46 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 10:51 AM
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We agree to disagree, but image noise is hard to compare, ask anyone that compares projectors professionally. I've never gravitated towards image noise being a crucial decision making factor, it might be for some that are uniquely sensitive to it.
Just to be clear I'm not talking about mosquito/ grain noise. I'm referring to image noise associated with a display having to project an image that has 4x the resolution of of its' native panels. If you can't tell the difference than there's nothing wrong with that.
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post #47 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 10:52 AM
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He is sitting 14' away from 120", people are not properly considering the variables. He said rarely might he sit 12', but even at 12', good luck with that.

Main reason to buy, image noise aside, is the tone mapping feature, but it's definitely going to be a trade-off for contrast vs. tone mapping. Sharpness and "image noise" at his seating distances are going to pale compared to those 2 features, as is in his case.

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post #48 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
They both have the tone mapping, the RS-540 does not, not sure if there are any new RS-540 units still floating around or not, maybe. They were in stock not all that long ago from some places.

You really don't need tone mapping on smaller screens that much for streaming, unless you just absolutely dislike making some minor aperture adjustments at the start of a stream if it's a bit dark. You'll have plenty of extra brightness in spades with a 1.2 gain 120" screen, plenty plenty.

It all boils down to tone mapping vs. higher contrast, the RS-540 has significantly higher contrast than both the NX-5 and NX-7. Everyone is going to tell you the newer projector is better, and in some ways it might be, but at your seating distance it's not going to be much different other than the tone mapping.
You keep saying tone mapping just for streaming, but unless a person is willing to either do some tinkering with custom curves on the 540 or have a professional calibration done, out of the box HDR is not very good. It works, but not great. If they buy a Panny with the HDR optimizer, I think that works with both discs and whatever streaming apps it has. With the proliferation of streaming services though, it very likely won't cover everything. Someone can correct me if that is wrong I guess as I don't have one.
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post #49 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 11:00 AM
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I agree with the above, the tone mapping makes it a hard decision, and also the NX-5 will hold its value better, but it is more expensive. The Panny for movies, yes the Panny can do a static adjustment in the tone mapping for streaming, but he has a 1.2 gain 120", he won't need it as he can use the aperture to compensate, and even custom curves at that level are somewhat optional, though it will improve it. He has brightness in spades, even if his screen is only 1.0 gain.

The Panny for streaming is a horrible UI for streaming, so I don't use it even though it has the ability to increase the brightness with the Dynamic Range slider. I do use it for movies though, very helpful.

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post #50 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 11:16 AM
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Haven't seen the NX7, but I own the x790/RS540 and have put 1300 hours on this unit (along with about 100 hours on my first X790). With everything I have seen with these eshifters ( I also owned the 520 for a few months) and all the comparison reports I have read from folks I trust like Manni who has extensive experience with the RS500 and now his RS2000, I would 100% go with the NX7 in your shoes OP. Here is the biggest reason IMO to go with the native 4k JVC that has not been brought up here and rarely does (this still amazes me) is image stability. The shifters image becomes more and more unstable in the form of a type of image pulsating the further you close down the manual iris and from what Manni has reported in his comparisons which you can go back and read, this has been fixed in the 4k models. This image pulsating drives me nuts with SDR on my X790 where I use the iris closed down in the -12 to -10 range. I've owned this projector for over two years and have NEVER gotten used to this. HDR is not an issue since I use a wide open iris where the image stability is good enough and significantly and noticeably better vs a mostly closed iris.

My plan is to upgrade to a native 4k JVC at the end of this year when the replacements hit. I cant wait to dump this X790 due to the image stability issues in favor of a 4k JVC. Just my opinion/experience, but I feel very strongly on this with all the headache I went through over this ugly pulsating with JVC 2 years ago where they also tested/confirmed what I was seeing and were actually the ones who discovered it gets worse as you close the iris more and more which they had me test/confirm as well.

Good luck whichever route you decide to go!
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post #51 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 11:18 AM
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The above is exactly what I’ve been talking about.
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post #52 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post
The shifters image becomes more and more unstable in the form of a type of image pulsating the further you close down the manual iris and from what Manni has reported in his comparisons which you can go back and read, this has been fixed in the 4k models. This image pulsating drives me nuts with SDR on my X790 where I use the iris closed down in the -12 to -10 range. I've owned this projector for over two years and have NEVER gotten used to this. HDR is not an issue since I use a wide open iris where the image stability is good enough and significantly and noticeably better vs a mostly closed iris.

My plan is to upgrade to a native 4k JVC at the end of this year when the replacements hit.
That's fine, I can see a pulsing in HTPC use, but this wasn't what the previous posters were talking about. This doesn't bother most people, as even opening the DI to -8 and then you still have contrast that is going to blow away the NX-5 or NX-7. This is really hard to see in movies, but you are on a smaller HP screen, which makes it that much worse.

There really is no right answer here, it's personal preferences. I can tell you what I'd like more of is contrast, not sharpness, but of couse both would be good. Until the NX series has better contrast, not going to do the upgrade, going to move from the RS-420 to an RS-520 in a year or two if the NX series doesn't get higher contrast.

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post #53 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by skylarlove1999 View Post
Definitely worth considering if you can find one with a warranty. The NX7 and NX5 are still at the top and the 6050 is much easier to get HDR performance from. You can get great HDR from the 970r but you need customized curves . The 790R wins for Contrast and black levels over the other projectors. It is an amazing pixel shifter.

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There are new RS540's available again ( 3 year warranty ) - JVC did another run of them. That said, if it were me, I'd go with an RS2000, or 1000 if money is tight, for the many reasons stated here by others. Sharper picture than eshifters, HDR tone mapping works great, and the best picture with 4K sources.
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post #54 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 11:35 AM
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That's great, but should we also choose sharpness if we're sitting 20' away?
I mean at what point does contrast no longer matter.

For all the years you guys were selling projectors with 10k+ more contrast, now it suddenly doesn't matter to have a 3x multiple?

This isn't a small difference in contrast, it is MORE difference than an RS-46 vs. an RS-66.

I'm taking the contrast for sure at his seating distance, pulsing be darned. The pulsing is annoying on HTPC use if it is the same pulsing he is talking about, but other than that, it's not even visible in games, just when reading on the HTPC.

I've never seen the pulsing in a movie, never noticed it, and I was looking for it. On an HP screen at 100" or less, I'm sure i could see it with these light canons.

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With a sharper native 4K picture, you have the option to sit closer. My seating distance has not stayed the same over the last 12+ years. With 1080p DLP's I was stuck at no closer than 12' - I could start to see pixel grid. Eshift allowed a closer seating distance, and native 4K even closer still. But the HDR DTM will be visible even further away. Every time I see an RS1000 I'm reminded how sharp it looks - even compared to my RS4500 !
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post #56 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 11:52 AM
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With a sharper native 4K picture, you have the option to sit closer. My seating distance has not stayed the same over the last 12+ years. With 1080p DLP's I was stuck at no closer than 12' - I could start to see pixel grid. Eshift allowed a closer seating distance, and native 4K even closer still. But the HDR DTM will be visible even further away. Every time I see an RS1000 I'm reminded how sharp it looks - even compared to my RS4500 !
He has the option, but it doesn't seem likely he is going to use it given he prefers to sit 15' back for 120", and that is where his seating is. I'm not making the recommendation based on some 'possibility', I asked him where he will probably sit.

I can tell anyone what my recommendations are if they may do X or Y, then always buy the most expensive projector, it sounded like he wanted to save money.

IMO, I strongly (Very strongly) disagree about contrast being discounted for sharpness at these seating distances.

The HDR DTM is the big difference, but it comes at the cost of a significant difference in contrast, more difference than an RS-46 vs. and RS-66. It's a lot of contrast to leave on the table for a trade-off of DTM ability.

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post #57 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
That's great, but should we also choose sharpness if we're sitting 20' away?
I mean at what point does contrast no longer matter.

For all the years you guys were selling projectors with 10k+ more contrast, now it suddenly doesn't matter to have a 3x multiple?

This isn't a small difference in contrast, it is MORE difference than an RS-46 vs. an RS-66.

I'm taking the contrast for sure at his seating distance, pulsing be darned. The pulsing is annoying on HTPC use if it is the same pulsing he is talking about, but other than that, it's not even visible in games, just when reading on the HTPC.

I've never seen the pulsing in a movie, never noticed it, and I was looking for it. On an HP screen at 100" or less, I'm sure i could see it with these light canons.
Only post I will make on this because I know you love to argue and I have zero interest in that. Just to be clear, the pulsating I am talking about was first noticed in real world material, a Nintendo Switch game to be exact (one of the Mario games). I notice this pulsating with nearly EVERY blu ray I watch, or anything where I use a closed down iris when the right type of scene pops up which yes, is usually something with a brighter background like your HTPC example. That is the problem. It affects real world material and I dont feel I am blowing this out of proportion by any means and if anything this doesnt get anywhere near enough attention especially on AVS.

Also, I dont think it's any coincidence that the pulsating gets worse as the iris closes more and more and the native contrast goes up. This could very well be why you dont see it more on your 420 because the pulsating is not as extreme with it's much lower native. Or your just not as sensitive to it as I am which is fine. This is just a theory though and I could be wrong, but it is interesting at the least that the image stability gets worse as you close the iris more and more and the native goes up.

Beyond all that, spew away about 2 projectors you havent even seen. The last post response is yours as I wont respond back so have at it.
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post #58 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post
Also, I dont think it's any coincidence that the pulsating gets worse as the iris closes more and more and the native contrast goes up. This could very well be why you dont see it more on your 420 because the pulsating is not as extreme with it's much lower native. Or your just not as sensitive to it as I am which is fine. This is just a theory though and I could be wrong, but it is interesting at the least that the image stability gets worse as you close the iris more and more and the native goes up.
Your sensitive to it, I understand. I see it but only on certain things, if it were that big of an issue for most, I think more people would have disiked their RS-5xx/6xx, as I didn't see many people complain that it was that bad.

I don't need to see projector # 193 to know how important contrast is, sorry that you do

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post #59 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
That's great, but should we also choose sharpness if we're sitting 20' away?
I mean at what point does contrast no longer matter.

For all the years you guys were selling projectors with 10k+ more contrast, now it suddenly doesn't matter to have a 3x multiple?

This isn't a small difference in contrast, it is MORE difference than an RS-46 vs. an RS-66.

I'm taking the contrast for sure at his seating distance, pulsing be darned. The pulsing is annoying on HTPC use if it is the same pulsing he is talking about, but other than that, it's not even visible in games, just when reading on the HTPC.

I've never seen the pulsing in a movie, never noticed it, and I was looking for it. On an HP screen at 100" or less, I'm sure i could see it with these light canons.
Is that from the eshift or just lamp flicker? I see lamp flicker sometimes in low lamp, although same as you, only on a bright static image. I guess I'll have to try turning eshift off and see if anything changes as I'm always baffled by the image noise comments. I use a 106" hp screen most of the time too. Running -13 for both SDR and HDR and just switching lamp power.

BTW I do agree 100% in regards to seating distance. You really need to be fairly close to 1:1 width/distance to benefit a lot. I would buy an N series over the 540, but it has little to do with the 4k chip.
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post #60 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by talon95 View Post
Is that from the eshift or just lamp flicker? I see lamp flicker sometimes in low lamp, although same as you, only on a bright static image. I guess I'll have to try turning eshift off and see if anything changes as I'm always baffled by the image noise comments. I use a 106" hp screen most of the time too. Running -13 for both SDR and HDR and just switching lamp power.

BTW I do agree 100% in regards to seating distance. You really need to be fairly close to 1:1 width/distance to benefit a lot. I would buy an N series over the 540, but it has little to do with the 4k chip.
To me it seems like the ballast is doing it and has nothing to do with e-shift, and does appear to be lamp pulsing. Happens with e-shift off as well. It looks like a modulation issue from the ballast synchronization of however it runs the lamp.

I ordered another lamp to see if it is the same.

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