Epson 6050UB vs JVC NX5/NX7 - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by talon95 View Post
Is that from the eshift or just lamp flicker? I see lamp flicker sometimes in low lamp, although same as you, only on a bright static image. I guess I'll have to try turning eshift off and see if anything changes as I'm always baffled by the image noise comments. I use a 106" hp screen most of the time too. Running -13 for both SDR and HDR and just switching lamp power.

BTW I do agree 100% in regards to seating distance. You really need to be fairly close to 1:1 width/distance to benefit a lot. I would buy an N series over the 540, but it has little to do with the 4k chip.
Assuming we are talking about the same pulsating, eshift on/off doesnt change anything. A new lamp will also not help. JVC brought me (I have a rep that lives near me) a new lamp to try and exact same results. I actually had a total of 3 lamps over two X790s and they were exactly the same. JVC also tested this on both X40 and X20 models and confirmed the pulsating in both model years ( I was considering going back to a 520 at one point).

This also has NOTHING to do with how bright your image is (as far as your chances of noticing it) as the issue gets worse as you close the iris more and more and the image gets dimmer. The pulsating is at its absolute worst when the projector is putting out its dimmest, but highest contrast image.
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post #62 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post
This also has NOTHING to do with how bright your image is (as far as your chances of noticing it) as the issue gets worse as you close the iris more and more and the image gets dimmer. The pulsating is at its absolute worst when the projector is putting out its dimmest, but highest contrast image.
Not how bright the image is compared to a dimmer image, but what color you are looking at (brighter colors). The effect reminds me of the w7000 pulsing when you closed the iris in the service menu, though that was more severe. I don't think the brighter it is makes it more 'there', just more visible, but yes appears that opening the iris or turning to lamp to high power gets rid of it for the most part.

Haven't tested it that much. I don't see it in anything but basically on levels over 200 white/gray, hence HTPC reading mostly.

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post #63 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
If I were sitting that far back, I would take the contrast over the resolution, am certain about that. From my own seating distance, 8' to 10' (variable reclining positions) from 118" Scope, I would have to A/B it to know. From that distance, it's an easy decision other than the tone mapping and better CMD mode I guess. It can go either way, but for me personally, I'll take the higher contrast of the RS-540. Problem is sharpness is so content-dependent anyhow.

At 12+ feet, pretty much all content looks 4k at that screen size, really close to it anyhow.
Yet there is a lot more differences than just resolution with the newer JVC's.

Cleaner image
Sharper image due to improved lens
Better resolution
Lens memory is more accurate. JVC beefed up the lens support, that is where most of the weight difference is coming from.
Installation mode can store a lot more settings
Dynamic tone mapping
1000/2000/3000 can do anamorphic functions with 4k 60P content.
Firmware updates by USB

I am sure that there are more that I am forgetting.
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post #64 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Not how bright the image is compared to a dimmer image, but what color you are looking at (brighter colors). The effect reminds me of the w7000 pulsing when you closed the iris in the service menu, though that was more severe. I don't think the brighter it is makes it more 'there', just more visible, but yes appears that opening the iris or turning to lamp to high power gets rid of it for the most part.

Haven't tested it that much. I don't see it in anything but basically on levels over 200 white/gray, hence HTPC reading mostly.

Get back to me when you have a 520, 620, 540 or 640 in your room. If my theory is correct, your not going to notice it anywhere near as bad on the 4xx models. You and me have nothing to talk about as far as this issue goes until you actually have experience with one of the EXACT models we are discussing. Dont know why you keep quoting me.
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post #65 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by cutman0122 View Post
Here's two of the three, side-by side comparison by TVS Pro.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUroCr7AtDo&t=52s
Rather than go by the video, you need to read Kris's comments on the video, because the video does not show what was actually seen in person.
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post #66 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 01:12 PM
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Sure it's a big improvement in some areas and a big step back in contrast.
Resolution and sharpness is less important than contrast, but every year we have these debates.

The difference in sharpness isn't even the same for everyone, it's a combination of luck and how the sharpness was on their last projector, and what content they are now watching to what they were watching before, and seating distance.

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post #67 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by DAtherton View Post
I've been trying to follow the "official" thread on the NX5/7/9, but at 22,361 posts it's become impossible to follow - it goes off topic so often that it almost becomes useless.

Could you therefore help me, please, by pointing me to the info that describes the free $600 lamp offer to which you refer. I'm trying to decide whether to go with the NX5 or NX7. Would the lamp offer apply to the purchase of a brand new NX7 made on a discounted online site?
That would be a no. Purchase would have to come from an authorized dealer. Clearly stated on the form.
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post #68 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post
Get back to me when you have a 520, 620, 540 or 640 in your room. If my theory is correct, your not going to notice it anywhere near as bad on the 4xx models. You and me have nothing to talk about as far as this issue goes until you actually have experience with one of the EXACT models we are discussing. Dont know why you keep quoting me.
Not sure why you are getting upset. I was just stating what I see, you may very well be right, as noted I didn't test it that thoroughly, thought I made that clear. Things in writing always sound more 'tonally serious', remember...

I have seen the RS-540 already, but did not notice it either on that one. However, that was not side-by-side to this projector, it was side-by-side to a B-stock RS-66, so might not help much there.

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post #69 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
That's great, but should we also choose sharpness if we're sitting 20' away?
I mean at what point does contrast no longer matter.

For all the years you guys were selling projectors with 10k+ more contrast, now it suddenly doesn't matter to have a 3x multiple?

This isn't a small difference in contrast, it is MORE difference than an RS-46 vs. an RS-66.

I'm taking the contrast for sure at his seating distance, pulsing be darned. The pulsing is annoying on HTPC use if it is the same pulsing he is talking about, but other than that, it's not even visible in games, just when reading on the HTPC.

I've never seen the pulsing in a movie, never noticed it, and I was looking for it. On an HP screen at 100" or less, I'm sure i could see it with these light canons.
Everything is moving toward 4K and HDR. This means open or nearly open iris. When you do that, there is not a doubling of contrast and it takes a doubling of contrast to notice a difference. Before dynamic tone mapping you wanted a minimum of 30FL for HDR. Now with dynamic tone mapping, you can get better looking results with 20FL.

Since dynamic tone mapping makes such a big difference, you can actually close down the iris more on the new JVC's and that means the native contrast advantage of the old models goes away. This only applies to 4k HDR content, but that is where everything is headed, right now. I used to use my RS640 with iris wide open and high lamp for HDR. I use my RS3000 with iris at -5 and still have a brighter image with better highlights and would not be surprised if the RS3000 native contrast was not higher. Only advantage of the older units with higher native contrast is for those that can close down the manual iris.
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post #70 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 01:36 PM
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That's fine for the few people that watch in the above conditions, I am at -8 to -12 most of the time, and the contrast is much higher even on the RS-540 at 0 aperture compared to an NX-5. The RS-3000 is a little closer contrast-wise but it's a lot of extra money.

The main reason I bought the RS-420 was because I was hoping the DI would make more difference. Tested the DI at a dealer on an RS-540, but I couldn't find the right content to play quick enough, could only find blackout scenes. Didn't know the JVC DI was so 'dead' on anything not pure black.

I'm very happy with the RS-420 for what I paid (bargain really), but I would not be happy with this contrast in the higher price ranges. I'm really picky about contrast more so than other stuff.

Tone mapping is a different issue, that is mixing the two issues, whereas there is a way around that issue anyhow, especially for those on smaller screens the contrast difference becomes more important, not less. I understand you guys have to sell projectors, so sorry if speaking about it hurts sales in any way (doubt it does, who listens to me anyways right)? I'm not going to reframe my own opinion though, I just personally prefer contrast over sharpness in most cases, not all.

Not a doubling of contrast to notice a difference, differences are noticed non-linearly by our eyes, can be as little as 25%, depends on room conditions and brightness level from one brightness to another. Doubling is noticeable without even an A/B comparison under some conditions.

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post #71 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post
Assuming we are talking about the same pulsating, eshift on/off doesnt change anything. A new lamp will also not help. JVC brought me (I have a rep that lives near me) a new lamp to try and exact same results. I actually had a total of 3 lamps over two X790s and they were exactly the same. JVC also tested this on both X40 and X20 models and confirmed the pulsating in both model years ( I was considering going back to a 520 at one point).

This also has NOTHING to do with how bright your image is (as far as your chances of noticing it) as the issue gets worse as you close the iris more and more and the image gets dimmer. The pulsating is at its absolute worst when the projector is putting out its dimmest, but highest contrast image.
Oh ok, so nothing to do with eshift or the true 4k chip, just another inherent design flaw in eshift series that got fixed in the N-series?

And yes, I have 2 lamps and both of them do it. I never see it during normal viewing though. Maybe some units are worse than others, just like other aspects such as eshift noise, etc... Seems like most projectors I have owned had some pulsing/flicker in low lamp though. Usually only seen on a static image like the windows desktop.
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post #72 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 01:47 PM
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I'm glad to know that there are so many 'haters' of the old e-shift models, will be very happy to take these off your hands next year @ $500 until I can find that 150k:1 'golden sample' RS-540/640.

Go watch Britannia 4k streaming, tell me how bad the sharpness is after the fact...

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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
That's fine for the few people that watch in the above conditions, I am at -8 to -12 most of the time, and the contrast is much higher even on the RS-540 at 0 aperture compared to an NX-5. The RS-3000 is a little closer contrast-wise but it's a lot of extra money.

The main reason I bought the RS-420 was because I was hoping the DI would make more difference. Tested the DI at a dealer on an RS-540, but I couldn't find the right content to play quick enough, could only find blackout scenes. Didn't know the JVC DI was so 'dead' on anything not pure black.

I'm very happy with the RS-420 for what I paid (bargain really), but I would not be happy this this contrast in the higher price ranges. I'm really picky about contrast more so than other stuff.

Tone mapping is a different issue, that is mixing the two issues, whereas there is a way around that issue anyhow, especially for those on smaller screens the contrast difference becomes more important, not less. I understand you guys have to sell projectors, so sorry if speaking about it hurts sales in any way (doubt it does, who listens to me anyways right)? I'm not going to reframe my own opinion though, I just personally prefer contrast over sharpness in most cases, not all.

Not a doubling of contrast to notice a difference, differences are noticed non-linearly by our eyes, can be as little as 25%, depends on room conditions and brightness level from one brightness to another. Doubling is noticeable without even an A/B comparison under some conditions.
1000, 2000, 3000 and 540's all come from the same place. As another poster stated earlier, 540's are still available, so don't understand your comment about sales. I have compared RS640 to RS1000 and I know a lot of people that have compared RS540 to either RS1000 or RS2000. Pretty much any person that has compared, side by side has gone with the new 1000 or 2000. Yes contrast is lower, but not that much lower when talking HDR and even though it is lower, people are still picking the new models for the other advantages. Some people keep talking like there is not much 4K content, yet that is 90 percent of my viewing. Granted a lot of it is not filmed in 4K, but it is still better than what I see, when playing a regular BD.
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post #74 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 01:48 PM
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That's fine for the few people that watch in the above conditions, I am at -8 to -12 most of the time, and the contrast is much higher even on the RS-540 at 0 aperture compared to an NX-5. The RS-3000 is a little closer contrast-wise but it's a lot of extra money.



The main reason I bought the RS-420 was because I was hoping the DI would make more difference. Tested the DI at a dealer on an RS-540, but I couldn't find the right content to play quick enough, could only find blackout scenes. Didn't know the JVC DI was so 'dead' on anything not pure black.



Tone mapping is a different issue, that is mixing the two issues, whereas there is a way around that issue anyhow, especially for those on smaller screens the contrast difference becomes more important, not less.



I understand you guys have to sell projectors, so sorry if speaking about it hurts sales in any way (doubt it does, who listens to me anyways right)?

I'm not going to reframe my own opinion though, I just personally prefer contrast over sharpness in most cases, not all.



Not a doubling of contrast to notice a difference, differences are noticed non-linearly by our eyes, can be as little as 25%, depends on room conditions and brightness level from one brightness to another. Doubling is noticeable without even an A/B comparison under some conditions.
Honestly really no need to bring salespeople or dealer motivations into the conversation. That is some serious disrespect that you are insinuating that a dealer would disregard a projectors performance to sell you a more expensive but lesser performing projector. Especially the dealers who frequent these forums. I do notice that anytime someone explains the conditions that don't support your opinion you always say that's just those few people running their set up that way. honestly how would you know that's just a few people who are operating their projectors under those conditions? you would have no idea that is just the truth you don't have any specific data on how people run their projectors. You seem to disregard something or minimize it when it doesn't support the point you're trying to make with a statement like you just made.

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post #75 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
1000, 2000, 3000 and 540's all come from the same place. As another poster stated earlier, 540's are still available, so don't understand your comment about sales. I have compared RS640 to RS1000 and I know a lot of people that have compared RS540 to either RS1000 or RS2000. Pretty much any person that has compared, side by side has gone with the new 1000 or 2000. Yes contrast is lower, but not that much lower when talking HDR and even though it is lower, people are still picking the new models for the other advantages. Some people keep talking like there is not much 4K content, yet that is 90 percent of my viewing. Granted a lot of it is not filmed in 4K, but it is still better than what I see, when playing a regular BD.
It's a lot lower to me, a lot. Sorry we just don't agree here, not everyone has to agree on what is most important.

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Honestly really no need to bring salespeople or dealer motivations into the conversation. That is some serious disrespect that you are insinuating that a dealer would disregard a projectors performance to sell you a more expensive but lesser performing projector.
That's not the insinuation, if it sounded that way. I doubt he took it that way, as I bought both my last 2 JVC projectors from him. I probably only felt comfortable saying that because of that reason. My point was we all have bias, we are all human, and I'm not going to change my opinion.

I don't think the NX-5 is an inferior projector, i think it has ups and downs is all.

You can't go wrong with the NX-5, you can go MORE WRONG with the RS-540, no disagreement.

I just personally prefer the extra contrast, is that against some law?

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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
That's not the insinuation, if it sounded that way. I doubt he took it that way, as I bought both my last 2 JVC projectors from him. I probably only felt comfortable saying that because of that reason. My point was we all have bias, we are all human, and I'm not going to change my opinion.



I don't think the NX-5 is an inferior projector, i think it has ups and downs is all.
Maybe that was not your intention . Read back over your comment. You are a smart guy. There was definitely an implication IMHO. Maybe you and Mike are on such good terms he wouldn't think you would be implying that. Maybe I was the only one who felt that way. I kind of doubt it though.

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post #78 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 01:56 PM
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Hyou would have no idea that is just the truth you don't have any specific data on how people run their projectors. You seem to disregard something or minimize it when it doesn't support the point you're trying to make with a statement like you just made.
Besides the 15,000 posts, 10 years of answering peoples setup questions in both the 3k+ and the sub-3k forums, and building a PJ calculator.

You're right, I have absolutely no data on how people run their projectors.

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Everything is moving toward 4K and HDR. This means open or nearly open iris. When you do that, there is not a doubling of contrast and it takes a doubling of contrast to notice a difference. Before dynamic tone mapping you wanted a minimum of 30FL for HDR. Now with dynamic tone mapping, you can get better looking results with 20FL.

Since dynamic tone mapping makes such a big difference, you can actually close down the iris more on the new JVC's and that means the native contrast advantage of the old models goes away. This only applies to 4k HDR content, but that is where everything is headed, right now. I used to use my RS640 with iris wide open and high lamp for HDR. I use my RS3000 with iris at -5 and still have a brighter image with better highlights and would not be surprised if the RS3000 native contrast was not higher. Only advantage of the older units with higher native contrast is for those that can close down the manual iris.
Yea I think this is partly my point. The N-series is just much more future proof too. For anyone that buys a projector with the intent of keeping it for several years (this excludes most AVS regulars ), the advantages may become more apparent later on. More true 4k content that's all HDR.
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It's a lot lower to me, a lot. Sorry we just don't agree here, not everyone has to agree on what is most important.
Your are watching 1080P content, are you not? My comments about contrast were with HDR. That is why I said most, not all. When you compare them side by side, you may pick the E-shift. I am just telling you that most everyone that have compared them side by side has picked the new models.
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post #81 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 01:58 PM
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Oh ok, so nothing to do with eshift or the true 4k chip, just another inherent design flaw in eshift series that got fixed in the N-series?

And yes, I have 2 lamps and both of them do it. I never see it during normal viewing though. Maybe some units are worse than others, just like other aspects such as eshift noise, etc... Seems like most projectors I have owned had some pulsing/flicker in low lamp though. Usually only seen on a static image like the windows desktop.
Not sure if this is one of the unit to unit variables or not, but I've had two X790s here as I mentioned and they were identical as far as this issue goes.
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There was definitely an implication IMHO. Maybe you and Mike are on such good terms he wouldn't think you would be implying that. Maybe I was the only one who felt that way. I kind of doubt it though.
It wasn't an implication, it was a direct statement. The statement was that I know you have to sell projectors, meaning it isn't helping if I say some might not want to upgrade YET because of contrast. Sales will catch up once the newer units have the higher contrast again, it will happen probably. IF I offended, then he'll get over it, but you're making a molehill out of nothing.

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It wasn't an implication, it was a direct statement. The statement was that I know you have to sell projectors, meaning it isn't helping if I say some might not want to upgrade YET because of contrast. Sales will catch up once the newer units have the higher contrast again, it will happen probably. IF I offended, then he'll get over it, but you're making a molehill out of nothing.
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post #84 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 02:07 PM
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Finally someone talking about this pulsating!
It drives me nuts. I thought it was something wrong with my unit. So only certain people can see it?
I tried to take a video of it, and I watch the video, and I don’t see any. What’s the deal with this guys? Is it the projector?

Thanks Mike for pointing me to this thread.
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post #85 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 02:10 PM
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I’ve also tried two different lamps. They both do it. Adjusting the iris doesn’t make a difference. It seems to happen more on less quality material. Meaning streaming vs a Blu-ray. But it still happens on some Blu-rays.
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post #86 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skylarlove1999 View Post
My grandfather always said the time to stop digging was before you found yourself in a hole.
There is no hole here, not digging, that was the intent of the post. I don't think the NX-5 is the inferior projector at all, I never said that. I think I personally prefer contrast is all, I've tested that theory many times and have gone back to contrast.

I said for his seating distance, and all the factors he described, and the fact he wanted to save money.
Seemed like the RS-540 was a better choice or just as good depending on his preferences.

There is no reason for everyone to turn this argument into something that it's not, and put words in peoples mouths, which is what happens in forums so often.

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post #87 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Besides the 15,000 posts, 10 years of answering peoples setup questions in both the 3k+ and the sub-3k forums, and building a PJ calculator.



You're right, I have absolutely no data on how people run their projectors.
Oh I agree you love to tell people on the forum what they should do. Do you have data on how many people follow your advice?

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post #88 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skylarlove1999 View Post
Oh I agree you love to tell people on the forum what they should do. Do you have data on how many people follow your advice?
Pretty strong words, as I never tell people 'what to do', I just give free advice that is more often than not the standard advice everyone else also gives. Everyone else also freely posts after me.

You're trying to make this personal, but I'm not going to let it bother me. I can take the shots, have stitches in my face right now, so have been through worse...

I push people in the lower sub-3k threads to try out JVC's, which is because I feel that they could do a lot better, even buying used than some of these other projectors. The Epsons are pretty good too, but still given how I value contrast, I favor JVC.

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post #89 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 02:34 PM
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I’ve got an Epson 4010 and I’m loving ever minute of it


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post #90 of 330 Old 01-19-2020, 04:03 PM
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Does the NX5 have more contrast than the 5050 in real world usage? I am in the same boat and debating between the NX5 and 5050. I am leaning towards the NX5 but my concern is having enough lumens in low lamp mode on the NX5. Seems like both projector noises on high makes them not usable. Projector is 12' away hitting a 110" grey screen.
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