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post #1 of 78 Old 01-31-2020, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
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JVC Convergence Issue

JVC owners, do you think this poor convergence out of the box on a new DLA-RS540 is bad enough to attempt a return or exchange?

Attached are pics of both the left and right sides, two different colors misaligned so using the overall pixel shift correction does not help, have to do a deep dive into every single zone. After adjusting all the zones to get rid of the convergence errors it seems that the picture is not as sharp as I expected coming from a Sony 45ES and not sure making a lot of corrections on a bad panel alignment takes a toll on sharpness?

What do you think?

Thanks,
Ross
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post #2 of 78 Old 01-31-2020, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rossandwendy View Post
JVC owners, do you think this poor convergence out of the box on a new DLA-RS540 is bad enough to attempt a return or exchange? Attached are pics of both the left and right sides, two different colors misaligned so using the overall pixel shift correction does not help, have to do a deep dive into every single zone. After adjusting all the zones to get rid of the convergence errors it seems that the picture is now softer as a result which I understand is the result of making a lot of corrections on a bad panel alignment. What do you think?

Thanks,
Ross
Did you let the projector warm up for at least 35 minutes first ? And can you see convergence errors from your seat ?
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post #3 of 78 Old 01-31-2020, 03:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Did you let the projector warm up for at least 35 minutes first ? And can you see convergence errors from your seat ?
I was hoping you would respond Craig because I value your experienced opinion on JVC. I think the projector had been on for more than an hour, but I will check it again tonight after warmup. Yes I could see the effects of the convergence error from my 12ft seating, a subtle but noticeable double image around objects. It's visually similar to seeing color fringing from lenses in still photography (I work as a landscape photographer) but obviously this is from the panels not the lens.

After spending two hours painstakingly adjusting every individual zone I have fairly clean white lines on the grid but it seems the sharpness of each line is not what I expected compared to what I'm used to on the 45ES.

I have read some other owners in the JVC threads getting a unit with bad convergence and they were able to return/exchange. At this point Id like to gather input from JVC owners about whether it's advisable to try the projector 'quality control lottery' and get another unit (assuming my dealer will cooperate), or live with this.

Also, I see a green tint in skin tones in both the Natural and Cinema modes and this has me further wondering if I have a bad unit, or if this is to be expected before a professional calibration. The out-of-the-box color on my 45ES is much more natural and accurate looking.

Ross

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post #4 of 78 Old 01-31-2020, 04:07 PM
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How many steps do you have to move it over if you use the whole adjust mode to get it relatively aligned just in the center?
Can you use full pixel adjustment?

Can you see the pixel grid itself well defined after focusing on the text or something (I know it's a bit hard to see the pixel grid on that green line sometimes, but try text maybe)...

A double image from 12' away, depending on what screen size you are projecting to, that sort of sounds like a serious convergence issue. Normally, with average to slightly below average convergence, you'd expect from 8' on a 100"s screen, that you might see a purple outline only on certain text if you really stare. In such an example of an average to slightly below average case, whether or not to send it back should be decided by how well defined the pixel grid focuses. In your case, hard to tell from pictures, but the above generalities that I stated might hopefully help in your thinking of how bad it is.

Keep in mind that red is worse than blue, blue is hard to see. However, purple is the worst (IMHO) of all, meaning red and blue being off "together" forming purple.
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post #5 of 78 Old 01-31-2020, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rossandwendy View Post
...


Also, I see a green tint in skin tones in both the Natural and Cinema modes and this has me further wondering if I have a bad unit, or if this is to be expected before a professional calibration. The out-of-the-box color on my 45ES is much more natural and accurate looking.

Ross

On my 790 THX was the most accurate mode out of the box. The modes are quite different and I wouldn't expect more than one to be accurate. (And I wouldn't necessarily expect any to be accurate out of the box.)
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post #6 of 78 Old 01-31-2020, 04:16 PM
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I think that most projectors won’t have good convergence on the sides. I know that for my PJ I can get the center to align perfectly but the sides are a bit off. I would get them to align with Zone alignment but I was told that it does more harm than good!



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post #7 of 78 Old 01-31-2020, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommarra View Post
I think that most projectors won’t have good convergence on the sides. I know that for my PJ I can get the center to align perfectly but the sides are a bit off. I would get them to align with Zone alignment but I was told that it does more harm than good!
Hi -- yah I've noticed some weird things about convergence. IMO convergence correction is fine in whole pixels, or if using HTPC text (didn't see any side effects in gaming or reading, could be, but I couldn't see any). For incremental pixel adjustments in movies, totally subjective, but the corrective edge blending algorithm seems pretty advanced and appears to only affect certain edges, not the whole image. So I'm not sure it would be detrimental to use, but I would guess there is a much higher chance of side effects if using the ZONE correction, a bit less if using increments, and none if using whole pixels. That said, to determine what I am saying is true within a high-level of certainty would mean asking multiple peoples eyes to try to find side effects, and that's a bit of a long and drawn out task.

Overall, I think the above person just needs to comparatively check the pixel grid focus, as that is more important than the convergence generally speaking. Also, if he has a good pixel grid focus and can use full pixel adjustment corrections instead of incremental or zone, then that might help him be more confident about keeping it.

However, seeing a "double image" from 12' away, that does not sound good.
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post #8 of 78 Old 01-31-2020, 04:22 PM
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What does it look like in the center ?
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post #9 of 78 Old 01-31-2020, 05:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
How many steps do you have to move it over if you use the whole adjust mode to get it relatively aligned just in the center?
Can you use full pixel adjustment?

Can you see the pixel grid itself well defined after focusing on the text or something (I know it's a bit hard to see the pixel grid on that green line sometimes, but try text maybe)...

A double image from 12' away, depending on what screen size you are projecting to, that sort of sounds like a serious convergence issue. Normally, with average to slightly below average convergence, you'd expect from 8' on a 100"s screen, that you might see a purple outline only on certain text if you really stare. In such an example of an average to slightly below average case, whether or not to send it back should be decided by how well defined the pixel grid focuses. In your case, hard to tell from pictures, but the above generalities that I stated might hopefully help in your thinking of how bad it is.

Keep in mind that red is worse than blue, blue is hard to see. However, purple is the worst (IMHO) of all, meaning red and blue being off "together" forming purple.
On the Whole Adjust I did H 1 and V -1. That was all I could do as a compromise, because almost every zone outside the center is off by different colors and amounts. So I then went into zone and had to adjust every single block, most blocks needed a minimum H -10 and V 10, and the worst blocks near edge needed a whopping H -20 and V 24.

I cannot see any convergence error *after* adjustments from my 11.5-12ft distance on a 140" wide image, but before adjustments last night I did see the slight double image affect from the color fringing along object edges. I guess I have fairly critical eyes for such things because I have been a professional photographer for over 30 years and am used to scrutinizing high resolution files for chromatic abberations and sharpness.

I will look again at the focus of the convergence corrected lines. *After* adjustment I am not seeing the sharpness of the picture from my seat as I'm used to with my Sony 45ES so am wondering if doing the extensive zone correction has sacrificed overall picture sharpness.

Thanks for your input.
Ross

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post #10 of 78 Old 01-31-2020, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willieconway View Post
On my 790 THX was the most accurate mode out of the box. The modes are quite different and I wouldn't expect more than one to be accurate. (And I wouldn't necessarily expect any to be accurate out of the box.)
Thanks. I think I have been spoiled by the out of the box colors in reference mode on my 45ES, very natural skin tones. Once I figure out if I'm getting this unit replaced I will look into getting a ChadB calibration after 100-200 hours, he is only about an hour from me.

Ross

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post #11 of 78 Old 01-31-2020, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommarra View Post
I think that most projectors won’t have good convergence on the sides. I know that for my PJ I can get the center to align perfectly but the sides are a bit off. I would get them to align with Zone alignment but I was told that it does more harm than good!
This is what worries me! I can't shake the feeling that the (zone corrected) JVC picture from viewing position is softer and less detailed than my Sony 45ES, and that is not what I expected.

Ross

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post #12 of 78 Old 01-31-2020, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rossandwendy View Post
On the Whole Adjust I did H 1 and V -1. That was all I could do as a compromise, because almost every zone outside the center is off by different colors and amounts. So I then went into zone and had to adjust every single block, most blocks needed a minimum H -10 and V 10, and the worst blocks near edge needed a whopping H -20 and V 24.
s
That is a bit much on the edges. I'm assuming your pixel grid isn't well defined, go into MPC enhancement and turn off E-shift and set all other enhancement sliders to 0. Load up something on your PC (some text preferably, like the Lazy Brown Fox pattern or even just LONG sentences of text in a browser) and expand the browser to fill the projected image. If you can and have a capable receiver with (2)+ HDMI outputs, compare it to your hw45es in real-time (not by memory) and put the images side by side (zoom down all the way if needed).

Let me see if I can put this into some perspective thought here.

I have (2) JVC's here, an RS-45 that falls somewhere near exceptional, but not perfect convergence, but let's say top 20% easily of all JVC units I've seen. Then, I also have an RS-420 (not much different than your RS-540), and it is what I would call 'average' convergence.

The RS-420 is off by red by about 1/3rd to a 1/2 of a pixel (about 0.6+ pixels on red), and about 1/3rd (0.5) on blue. Now even if I use absolute max Lens shift and even shoot the projected image at a slight angle increasing chromatic abberation, the RS-420 only shows a total error difference from edge to edge of approximately 0.8 (meaning if I were to use zone correction, the bottom might need -2, top +6).

You are telling me -24 to -10, that is a variance of 14 vs. my variance of 8.

So I would say this all depends on the focus of the pixels themselves, more than convergence alone, depends. See if you can compare text and look for the actual pixel delineation (the ability to make out the square pixels that make up the text or image).
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post #13 of 78 Old 01-31-2020, 05:54 PM
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Convergence mostly affects edge sharpness, but it can be symptomatic of reduced pixel focus if something else going on.

Pixel Focus = affects the entire sharpness of the image
Convergence = affects mostly just edge delineations when 'unruly' colors meet together, such as for text (until error becomes more severe)

Since movies have scattered "soft lighting" on edges and not harsh delineations, the convergence error will be harder to see in movies, but you might see it on subtitles or animation or certain things. Once convergence gets bad enough though, it can start to affect everything, even movies and then destroy the entire sharpness of the image.
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post #14 of 78 Old 01-31-2020, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
What does it look like in the center ?
Here is the very center grid before any correction, you can see it's off by red and blue (and the previous pics show worse errors as you move away from the center grid):
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rossandwendy View Post
Here is the very center grid before any correction, you can see it's off by red and blue (and the previous pics show worse errors as you move away from the center grid):


Like Coderguy said, make sure eshift and MPC settings are turned off.


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post #16 of 78 Old 01-31-2020, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rossandwendy View Post
Here is the very center grid before any correction, you can see it's off by red and blue (and the previous pics show worse errors as you move away from the center grid):

and this is after you have turned off 'Fine' adjustments and only applied 'Pixel' adjustments

i have a feeling if you turned off Fine and only used Whole you will get convergence
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rossandwendy View Post
Here is the very center grid before any correction, you can see it's off by red and blue (and the previous pics show worse errors as you move away from the center grid):
If it's better in the center and worse on the sides is it chromatic abberration instead of panel misconvergence?

Ive got one blue pixel vertically shifted due to using all the available zoom and lens shift on a sim2 mico40, a single chip projector.

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post #18 of 78 Old 01-31-2020, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Like Coderguy said, make sure eshift and MPC settings are turned off.


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Yes, they were off.

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post #19 of 78 Old 01-31-2020, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommarra View Post
and this is after you have turned off 'Fine' adjustments and only applied 'Pixel' adjustments

i have a feeling if you turned off Fine and only used Whole you will get convergence
That center pic was with no adjustments whatsoever, out of the box convergence, no whole nor fine nor zone. Does that look like it is within spec? Am I just being too much of a perfectionist?

Ross

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JVC Convergence Issue

Yes I think they are within spec ... you just need to go Whole Pixel red +1 horizontal and whole pixel Blue -1 (horizontal) and +1 vertical

And see how it looks


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post #21 of 78 Old 01-31-2020, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rossandwendy View Post
Yes, they were off.
You have to distinguish between convergence and chromatic aberration (CA). For example, in this pic, what you are seeing is CA and not a convergence issue.

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post #22 of 78 Old 01-31-2020, 07:32 PM
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These next pics are taken from my former JVC X990 as that is probably closer to what you have than is my NX7. These photos are enhanced to show line bleed, if any. As you can see, convergence is really good. But still, over time it can drift so maybe if it started well and then drifts, it could have been a tad better when I first had gotten it. On the flip side, sometimes convergence needs to settle. But if you feel yours is bad enough, be sure to act while your warranty and/or return period is in effect.

As for me I've always been lucky with my convergence...just a fact!!!
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post #23 of 78 Old 01-31-2020, 07:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
You have to distinguish between convergence and chromatic aberration (CA). For example, in this pic, what you are seeing is CA and not a convergence issue.

That is a good point. As a still photographer CA is something i am used to dealing with. In the case of my projector the fact I am able to correct it out with Whole and then Zone adjustments seems to confirm convergence.

Part of my issue I think is my expectations for JVC were too high. Coming from Benq, Epson, and Sony, I had in my mind the idea that a few thousand spent on a JVC would result in no issues. Yeah I know, unrealistic :-)

Ross

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post #24 of 78 Old 01-31-2020, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by rossandwendy View Post
Here is the very center grid before any correction, you can see it's off by red and blue (and the previous pics show worse errors as you move away from the center grid):

I think this center image looks good for no adjustments, but the images in your first post at the edges look pretty rough to me if that is the best you can get. My RS500 that I used to have certainly had much better convergence than that and I was operating at max zoom with significant lens shift in both directions.
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post #25 of 78 Old 01-31-2020, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
These next pics are taken from my former JVC X990 as that is probably closer to what you have than is my NX7. These photos are enhanced to show line bleed, if any. As you can see, convergence is really good. But still, over time it can drift so maybe if it started well and then drifts, it could have been a tad better when I first had gotten it. On the flip side, sometimes convergence needs to settle. But if you feel yours is bad enough, be sure to act while your warranty and/or return period is in effect.

As for me I've always been lucky with my convergence...just a fact!!!
That looks great. You won the projector lottery

Ross
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post #26 of 78 Old 01-31-2020, 07:40 PM
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The second set of pictures are from an Lcos, my JVC X990 when I first got it.

I've owned quite a few JVC projectors, and I have found some unit-to-unit variance. What makes one projector better than the other, in my opinion, is convergence!!! That being, I don't find yours to be outrageously bad either. But that's just my two copper Abe Lincolns.
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post #27 of 78 Old 01-31-2020, 07:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by WisconsinEric View Post
I think this center image looks good for no adjustments, but the images in your first post at the edges look pretty rough to me if that is the best you can get. My RS500 that I used to have certainly had much better convergence than that and I was operating at max zoom with significant lens shift in both directions.
Thanks, that's a good summary, I have come to see that the center is good enough, but increasingly leaving the center it gets worse and worse, and the left side is a different color error than the right side, thus using Whole Pixel cannot solve it. And after doing time-consuming individual Zone correction I have come to believe that compromises overall picture sharpness. For the last hour I have been watching films with the convergence corrections turned off and it does seem to be sharper without.

I appreciate the input from everyone, it is helping me come to an understanding. I'm sure you can relate to that feeling of dropping a few grand on a new device and then seeing issues that makes you worried you might be stuck with a bad sample.

Ross

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post #28 of 78 Old 01-31-2020, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rossandwendy View Post
That looks great. You won the projector lottery

Ross
Thanks. Yeah, people were calling it a "golden sample." I don't know if it really was, but one fellow forum member, @Bytehoven , even called for the X990 to be rated in "Aztars" as a measuring rod.

I have an NX7 now, but when I first received it, the convergence was out more so than it is now and then settled after a few hours. I'm very pleased with this NX7's convergence.
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post #29 of 78 Old 01-31-2020, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Can convergence vary based on where you are in the lens' zoom range? I was thinking no because convergence is a panel issue, not lens issue.

Ross

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post #30 of 78 Old 01-31-2020, 08:14 PM
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It's both, the initial error is the panel then the lens adds to the error. So the CA combines with the convergence. Even a pure convergence error isn't purely just the panel, it's enhanced by the lens even before CA adds to it.

If you are experiencing a sharpness loss after the convergence correction, it is likely because you have narrowed the blue and red on top of each other, in doing so the resulting purple color is actually worse than blue and red being separately off. However, that is when judging it on text, not sure about for movies, as it could vary. It likely means you over-corrected.

I had a similar problem on my first attempt at Zone correction, but I ended up only doing whole pixel and I don't turn it on for movies, only HTPC sometimes.

My belief is that it probably is not the correction algorithm causing the issue here, it's the actual red/blue blending to purple, because purple is the most intrusive looking color from seating distance. So the best convergence correction is likely to avoid the most purple to make the whitest looking text, including the inner part of the text and the outline. I also noticed that some corrections produced a yellowish looking text.

That said, judging sharpness in movies is VERY hard especially as scenes change. We all have been wrong before by memory, myself included. Perhaps your not, I'm just saying I would try to compare text and not try to judge it with movies.

I did few hours of experimenting with the zone vs. increment vs. whole, and I could not even detect a major difference in noise in my HTPC. The only differences I could detect were on test patterns, and even the test patterns differences were extremely mild, barely detectable.

My best guess is that the most likely side effect from convergence correction is going to be dancing noise near sharp edges, but it's probably rare.
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