Looking for a good $2500-$3500 projector - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 38 Old 03-20-2020, 10:34 AM
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Thanks! Answers below!

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Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Do you still want lamp based projectors?
Well, it depends on the alternative? That is why I was excited about the JVC LX-NZ3B, but the reviews looks less than stellar? Also not sure if it will also go dark quickly and just die which would be even more expensive.

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What was the previous projector?
Epson - Home Cinema 8350, this is making me have second thoughts on the Epson UB5050. I felt I had to change bulbs every few months. I guess the tech has improved over time though?

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Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
What is the source and intensity of the ambient light?
A few windows, not super bright. I will make it dark for movies and TV series, but I would like to be able to use it during the day or with a bit of light so I can play a game or watch TV during the day when the wife does not want it to be a bat cave.

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Seating distance?
10-15 feet depending on what works best, currently at ~14 feet.

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Just sports or other media?
Sports, regular tv shows and movies. Wife like to look at design and architecture shows which a big bright screen is perfect for.

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Any gaming?
Yeah, but I don't play multiplayer FPS so input lag is not a big concern for me. As long as it is at all usable. Think I will be good with the TK850 even.

Room dimensions? W x L x H

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Budget?
Lets say ~5k, it is somewhat flexible but it includes a motorized screen and of course if I don't really notice and quality difference I would like it cheaper :-)
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post #32 of 38 Old 03-20-2020, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristian Monsen View Post
Thanks! Answers below!


Well, it depends on the alternative? That is why I was excited about the JVC LX-NZ3B, but the reviews looks less than stellar? Also not sure if it will also go dark quickly and just die which would be even more expensive.


Epson - Home Cinema 8350, this is making me have second thoughts on the Epson UB5050. I felt I had to change bulbs every few months. I guess the tech has improved over time though?


A few windows, not super bright. I will make it dark for movies and TV series, but I would like to be able to use it during the day or with a bit of light so I can play a game or watch TV during the day when the wife does not want it to be a bat cave.


10-15 feet depending on what works best, currently at ~14 feet.


Sports, regular tv shows and movies. Wife like to look at design and architecture shows which a big bright screen is perfect for.


Yeah, but I don't play multiplayer FPS so input lag is not a big concern for me. As long as it is at all usable. Think I will be good with the TK850 even.

Room dimensions? W x L x H


Lets say ~5k, it is somewhat flexible but it includes a motorized screen and of course if I don't really notice and quality difference I would like it cheaper :-)
What do you mean by
if it will also go dark quickly and just die which would be even more expensive.

Where are the windows relative to the screen?
Any other ambient light sources? If yes what location?

Are you happy with the motion handling of the 8350?

Change lamps every few months? How many hours before lamp change?

So what are the room dimensions?

Motorized screen or fixed?
The latter would be less expensive.

Is a curtain style system possible?
https://www.facebook.com/projectiond...2721894385217/
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post #33 of 38 Old 03-20-2020, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
What do you mean by
if it will also go dark quickly and just die which would be even more expensive.
I mean if instead of changing the bulb the laser is dying and cannot be replaced. As much as I hated the bulbs at least they could be replaced.

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Where are the windows relative to the screen?
Any other ambient light sources? If yes what location?
There is a glass door as well, but it is behind the viewing position and it's away from the sun.

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Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Are you happy with the motion handling of the 8350?
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Change lamps every few months? How many hours before lamp change?
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Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
So what are the room dimensions?
I guess for the watching area is like ~20'x16'x8'

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Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Motorized screen or fixed?
The latter would be less expensive.
Motorized, there are two windows behind it that can be completely dark but they need to be available when the projector is not in use.

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Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Is a curtain style system possible?[/url]
So again I could make it almost dark, but I don't really want to. Being able to use the projector with a fair amount of ambient light is a selling point for me. If it needs to be completely dark I'll just keep the TV I think.
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post #34 of 38 Old 03-20-2020, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristian Monsen View Post
I mean if instead of changing the bulb the laser is dying and cannot be replaced. As much as I hated the bulbs at least they could be replaced.


There is a glass door as well, but it is behind the viewing position and it's away from the sun.






I guess for the watching area is like ~20'x16'x8'


Motorized, there are two windows behind it that can be completely dark but they need to be available when the projector is not in use.


So again I could make it almost dark, but I don't really want to. Being able to use the projector with a fair amount of ambient light is a selling point for me. If it needs to be completely dark I'll just keep the TV I think.
You skipped some:

Are you happy with the motion handling of the 8350?

Where are the windows relative to the screen? Just behind it?

What is the total room length and width?

How many hours before lamp change on the old Epson?
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post #35 of 38 Old 03-20-2020, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
You skipped some:

Are you happy with the motion handling of the 8350?

Where are the windows relative to the screen? Just behind it?

What is the total room length and width?

How many hours before lamp change on the old Epson?
I actually did most of them:
- I guess for the watching area is like ~20'x16'x8'
- Two windows just behind, they will obviously be blacked out. Some to the left as well.

Others:
- Can't remember how many hours, just that I found it annoying and that it was hard to know if I had to change or it just felt dark that day.
- I was very happy with the projector when it was not too dark because the lamp had to be replaced. Including the motion handling.

So what do you think? Are those projectors good and the reviews mostly focusing on minor flaws or am I better off just keeping the TV? Is a $3000+ screen needed for this setup?
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post #36 of 38 Old 03-20-2020, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristian Monsen View Post
I actually did most of them:
- I guess for the watching area is like ~20'x16'x8'
- Two windows just behind, they will obviously be blacked out. Some to the left as well.

Others:
- Can't remember how many hours, just that I found it annoying and that it was hard to know if I had to change or it just felt dark that day.
- I was very happy with the projector when it was not too dark because the lamp had to be replaced. Including the motion handling.

So what do you think? Are those projectors good and the reviews mostly focusing on minor flaws or am I better off just keeping the TV? Is a $3000+ screen needed for this setup?

What felt dark that day? What does that even mean?


You keep giving bizarre and sideways answers.

I asked what is the room dimension and you respond with viewing area. That's not what I asked.


It's very strange to just change the lamp without knowing the hours. Why was it changed, became too dim?
How many hours a day was the projector used?
How many months between changes?



Anyway I won't try to decipher your answers so I'll give some general info.


The lamp on the 5050UB is not that different from the 8350. Projectors with laser/led light sources don't have yet the picture quality of a lamp based projector. If it was for sports via cable only, that would be different.
It's also a problem since you don't know the hours on the lamp when it was changed, and it's not clear why.

Laser projectors for instance can have a life of ~20 000h, at which point the source is half as bright.


A projector setup with an ALR screen is possible with a few conditions:

With angular ALR screens light must not come from the same source as the projector. So the door behind the seating will have to be covered. With some sort of curtain/shade.

Angular ALRs are like a mirror. If the light comes from one side, will be reflected to the other side. If it comes from the projector area, it will also be reflected towards the viewer.


The projector must be placed on the central axis of the screen, perpendicular to the screen.


During the day the image will be more or less acceptable IF the projected image is bright. Ambient light will wash out the darker parts of the image, regardless of the projector and screen.


The reason I asked for room dimensions and not "viewing area" is with a few exceptions, ALR screens require to be placed at a certain distance from the screen to avoid visual artifacts like hotspots.
The general ratio is 1.9x screen width. For an 120" screen that would be ~16-17'.
A projector capable of this throw ratio is required. The TK850 has a throw ratio of up to 1.47x. Not that many models have this kind of specifications, and most of them are Epson.


The screen must be black blocked to stop light coming from behind it.


That Elunevision ALR is not very good at ambient light rejection. For a more aggressive type fabric try the Cingrey 5D, Slate 0.8, or other screens that have a small half gain.
The smaller the half gain, the better the light rejection capability.
Half gain can be vertical or horizontal.

Half gain is also the angle at which the brightness is half what it would be when viewed from the central axis.
Here is a review of ALR screens which note some of the half angles:
https://www.projectorcentral.com/amb...rticle_id=1493

It's missing the Cinegrey 5D which a 40 degree horizontal half angle.

The horizontal half angle is mostly noted, the vertical one less so.
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post #37 of 38 Old 03-21-2020, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
What felt dark that day? What does that even mean?


You keep giving bizarre and sideways answers.

I asked what is the room dimension and you respond with viewing area. That's not what I asked.


It's very strange to just change the lamp without knowing the hours. Why was it changed, became too dim?
How many hours a day was the projector used?
How many months between changes?



Anyway I won't try to decipher your answers so I'll give some general info.


The lamp on the 5050UB is not that different from the 8350. Projectors with laser/led light sources don't have yet the picture quality of a lamp based projector. If it was for sports via cable only, that would be different.
It's also a problem since you don't know the hours on the lamp when it was changed, and it's not clear why.

Laser projectors for instance can have a life of ~20 000h, at which point the source is half as bright.


A projector setup with an ALR screen is possible with a few conditions:

With angular ALR screens light must not come from the same source as the projector. So the door behind the seating will have to be covered. With some sort of curtain/shade.

Angular ALRs are like a mirror. If the light comes from one side, will be reflected to the other side. If it comes from the projector area, it will also be reflected towards the viewer.


The projector must be placed on the central axis of the screen, perpendicular to the screen.


During the day the image will be more or less acceptable IF the projected image is bright. Ambient light will wash out the darker parts of the image, regardless of the projector and screen.


The reason I asked for room dimensions and not "viewing area" is with a few exceptions, ALR screens require to be placed at a certain distance from the screen to avoid visual artifacts like hotspots.
The general ratio is 1.9x screen width. For an 120" screen that would be ~16-17'.
A projector capable of this throw ratio is required. The TK850 has a throw ratio of up to 1.47x. Not that many models have this kind of specifications, and most of them are Epson.


The screen must be black blocked to stop light coming from behind it.


That Elunevision ALR is not very good at ambient light rejection. For a more aggressive type fabric try the Cingrey 5D, Slate 0.8, or other screens that have a small half gain.
The smaller the half gain, the better the light rejection capability.
Half gain can be vertical or horizontal.

Half gain is also the angle at which the brightness is half what it would be when viewed from the central axis.

Here is a review of ALR screens which note some of the half angles:


It's missing the Cinegrey 5D which a 40 degree horizontal half angle.

The horizontal half angle is mostly noted, the vertical one less so.
Thanks, that is actually super useful! I guess we talked a bit around each other as I didn't really understand what you were asking for. I spent some time researching from that link, and it was helpful. Yes, the room extends further back so I can put the projector in a space for a good distance for that screen. I think the JVC LX-NZ3 also has an appropriate throw distance.

Also I say thanks again for the help, purchasing projector seems much harder than TV as you cannot go to the store and check them out easily. There are also a lot more trade-offs to think about so I really value the expertise here.

A few follow-up questions:
- These screens are really expensive, like more than the projectors. Is it worth it to put that much into the screen in general?
- Will the dark material screen hurt when the room is very dark? Like are these screens actually significantly worse to watch HDR in a dark room, aside from viewing angles and price (which is big!).
- You said it will only work with a bright projected image, some clarification on that. Assuming the ambient light is not too bright, and it is not coming from the same direction as the projector, would even a not so bright projector like JVC DLA-NX5 work, or they are only for really well light controlled rooms?
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post #38 of 38 Old 03-21-2020, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristian Monsen View Post
Thanks, that is actually super useful! I guess we talked a bit around each other as I didn't really understand what you were asking for. I spent some time researching from that link, and it was helpful. Yes, the room extends further back so I can put the projector in a space for a good distance for that screen. I think the JVC LX-NZ3 also has an appropriate throw distance.

Also I say thanks again for the help, purchasing projector seems much harder than TV as you cannot go to the store and check them out easily. There are also a lot more trade-offs to think about so I really value the expertise here.

A few follow-up questions:
- These screens are really expensive, like more than the projectors. Is it worth it to put that much into the screen in general?
- Will the dark material screen hurt when the room is very dark? Like are these screens actually significantly worse to watch HDR in a dark room, aside from viewing angles and price (which is big!).
- You said it will only work with a bright projected image, some clarification on that. Assuming the ambient light is not too bright, and it is not coming from the same direction as the projector, would even a not so bright projector like JVC DLA-NX5 work, or they are only for really well light controlled rooms?
The screen is part of a setup. It's worth it if you can afford it.

The darker shade of the screen reduces it's gain. HDR has a brightness requirement depending on the tone mapper used. The better the tone mapper, the less brightness required. There is also some room for personal preference here.

For instance for the NX5 the general recommendation for HDR is 21fL. In a room with dark walls. If the room has light walls the fL requirement increases. Lamps dim with age so the initial requirement increases more.

For the NX5 in a non treated room with a 1.0 gain screen the biggest screen diagonal is 100-110%. If the gain is higher then a larger diagonal can be used.


JVC"s have the best black level. Black level is affected by ambient light and wall reflections. In a room 100% treated with non reflective black velvet there will be almost no light pollution. ALR screens can't eliminate 100% of ambient light so contrast/black level will be affected.

Whereas a neutral 1.0 screen will just reflect what is being sent and not change anything, ALR screens can also have some negative effects, but I doubt a regular user will notice.

If most of the viewing will be done with ambient light I would not get a JVC NX series. JVC lamps are also expensive.

From a brightness perspective even the NX5 could work with an ALR screen and ambient light. However, regardless of screen and projector, if there is a spot on the screen that is dark, that is where the projector does not send light. So ambient light takes over. Even the best ARL screen are easily overwhelmed.

For a real life example, I did some tests a while back with 4 different lightning scenarios in 4 differently bright pictures. Ignore the hotspot, it's because the projector is too close:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...l#post58809924

There's also a white paper to simulate a white screen. Just from the Google homepage, the one with the black background can't stand up to ambient light, while the one with the white can.
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