Degradation of JVC's D-ILA panels? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 34 Old 02-21-2020, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Degradation of JVC's D-ILA panels?

I am a long time owner of JVC D-ILA projectors over the years, starting with a JVC RS-1U, RS-57U and currently a RS-600U. I am noticing as each projector approached 1,000 hours, the image quality appears to have degraded First, the colors are not as vibrant as before and secondly, there seems to be a slight "halo" effect when there is a white object on a black background, such as end credits in a movie.

I noticed this when I replaced the RS-1 with the RS-57U and now it appears the RS-600U is suffering the same effect. I only use the projector on low-lamp mode and always with the iris at -15 (although I realize this has no affect on the projector's performance as it only physically reduces light output, not electrically). I have also removed and cleaned the lamp housing as well as the optical unit with no improvement.

Mind you, I still think JVC's D-ILA technology is the best, but I was wondering if any others have noticed this.

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post #2 of 34 Old 02-21-2020, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon S View Post
I am a long time owner of JVC D-ILA projectors over the years, starting with a JVC RS-1U, RS-57U and currently a RS-600U. I am noticing as each projector approached 1,000 hours, the image quality appears to have degraded First, the colors are not as vibrant as before and secondly, there seems to be a slight "halo" effect when there is a white object on a black background, such as end credits in a movie.

I noticed this when I replaced the RS-1 with the RS-57U and now it appears the RS-600U is suffering the same effect. I only use the projector on low-lamp mode and always with the iris at -15 (although I realize this has no affect on the projector's performance as it only physically reduces light output, not electrically). I have also removed and cleaned the lamp housing as well as the optical unit with no improvement.

Mind you, I still think JVC's D-ILA technology is the best, but I was wondering if any others have noticed this.
Hi, have you ever run an Autocal on this projector? (using the JVC autocal software + a spyder 4 or 5 meter?) All of the JVC's including the new 4k models will experience gamma droop at some point within the first 1000 hours and will noticeably affect the overall PQ.

I have 2 RS600's, 1 with ~1000 hours and another with ~2600 hours. Both had gamma shifts and were easily correct with the autocal process. Below is a post calibration and they look better than new. excellent color & image depth.

If the projector hasn't had a good calibration there is a lot of image quality being left on the table.

Gamma pre-autocal



Gamma post-autocal







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Last edited by zombie10k; 02-21-2020 at 09:23 AM.
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post #3 of 34 Old 02-21-2020, 09:21 AM
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I have heard that every projector has a slight form of degradation of the panels. I dont think you can see this with your eyes, you have to measure this with a calibration or so.
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post #4 of 34 Old 02-21-2020, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Reezepees View Post
I have heard that every projector has a slight form of degradation of the panels. I dont think you can see this with your eyes, you have to measure this with a calibration or so.
I have a calibrated Minolta T10 to measure contrast, I have not seen any evidence that any my JVC's (a dozen + over last decade) have lost contrast. I can't say the same for my Sony VW1100 but that's a different topic.

I have also been measuring / tracking color gamut as well and haven't seen any obvious changes in ~ 4 years 2600 hours. I think the JVC panels are solid for the long run.

The JVC's need an autocal... no questions asked otherwise you will see what appears to be issues with the projector over time. having correct gamma is a major contributor to what makes the JVC's pop as well as they do. A drooping gamma takes the life out of the picture.
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post #5 of 34 Old 02-21-2020, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the replies... I am not complaining about the contrast... I am saying that the image appears to be "blooming" in high contrast scenes.



I did have the projector professionally calibrated by a ISF certified tech. I personally know this tech and he does a very comprehensive calibration, which takes a few hours. He sends his equipment up for recalibration every year and gets recurring classes annually.

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post #6 of 34 Old 02-21-2020, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon S View Post
Thanks for the replies... I am not complaining about the contrast... I am saying that the image appears to be "blooming" in high contrast scenes.

I did have the projector professionally calibrated by a ISF certified tech. I personally know this tech and he does a very comprehensive calibration, which takes a few hours. He sends his equipment up for recalibration every year and gets recurring classes annually.
hi, you mentioned seeing specific changes on 3 different models over a period of time (colors not as vibrant). that would be hard to explain unless it was related to a calibration change over time. these projectors are not known for panel degradation. My RS600's look identical today as they did 4 years ago.

as for internal reflections, the JVC's has been known for this for years and can vary from copy to copy. I have not heard of reports of these suddenly becoming worse over time.
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post #7 of 34 Old 02-21-2020, 11:23 AM
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Just to eliminate the possibility, as the gamma is the more likely culprit, but have you replaced lamps in those projectors? If theyre max useage is 1000 hours and the original bulbs are 5... 10 years old... and you only use the projector for a single film so they have been struck 500 times which ages the bulbs as well, and the bulbs lose brightness and uniformity.
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post #8 of 34 Old 02-21-2020, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
hi, you mentioned seeing specific changes on 3 different models over a period of time (colors not as vibrant). that would be hard to explain unless it was related to a calibration change over time. these projectors are not known for panel degradation. My RS600's look identical today as they did 4 years ago.

as for internal reflections, the JVC's has been known for this for years and can vary from copy to copy. I have not heard of reports of these suddenly becoming worse over time.
I agree. I have talked to thousands of owners of JVC projectors. I have never heard of any JVC developing halo or streaking effect. That has always been something that if there, was there from day one. In the past, people would test this with Oppo screen saver.
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post #9 of 34 Old 02-21-2020, 01:56 PM
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Hi,

A short DCI-P3 Color Check run of my aging Dino RS40/X3. Without the lumagen radiance in the signalpath.

WIDE 1 (DCI) Colorspace with D65 whitepoint and a Gamma 2.3 target.
Whitepoint calibration for the bulb was done in the Service menu.
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post #10 of 34 Old 02-21-2020, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I have a calibrated Minolta T10 to measure contrast, I have not seen any evidence that any my JVC's (a dozen + over last decade) have lost contrast. I can't say the same for my Sony VW1100 but that's a different topic.
But he wasn't talking about contrast.

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Just to eliminate the possibility, as the gamma is the more likely culprit, but have you replaced lamps in those projectors? If theyre max useage is 1000 hours and the original bulbs are 5... 10 years old... and you only use the projector for a single film so they have been struck 500 times which ages the bulbs as well, and the bulbs lose brightness and uniformity.
That's a great point...these DILA panels/especially polarized light...you need a good lamp.
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post #11 of 34 Old 02-21-2020, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
But he wasn't talking about contrast.



That's a great point...these DILA panels/especially polarized light...you need a good lamp.
Well the other points have been disproven. Years old, high hour use JVC's calibrate color wise perfectly fine. We know autocal can take care of gamma and contrast has been shown not degrade, so what else is there to talk about?
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post #12 of 34 Old 02-21-2020, 05:16 PM
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The haloing would normally be due to a lower ansi contrast with high lamp/no iris.

The haloing shouldnt be due to a gamma droop though, that would look more overdriven, clipping highlights, crushing blacks? A reduced contrast appearance in brighter scenes, reduced color depth.

Is gamma droop just with new panels? as they "burn in" they're luminance curve changes? Or does it occur throughout the panels life? That would indicate some form of degradation, and eventually youll reach a limit and calibration will cause posterization?
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post #13 of 34 Old 02-21-2020, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
But he wasn't talking about contrast.
The thread title infers what's he seeing could be related to some kind of panel degradation. when I think of that topic, 2 things come to mind, permanent loss of contrast and color gamut shrinkage where it can't be recovered. both were topics on different Sony projectors a few years ago. Some of the HW series has both contrast and color gamut issues over time. This isn't really a common issue on the JVC's so it's good to clear the air on that topic.

he mentioned colors not as vibrant. could be a poor performing lamp that shifted quite a bit after the calibration was done. halo's during end credits which is pretty typical for the JVC's. Did it suddenly become more evident after 1000 hours? Maybe post a photo of what he is seeing in person. I usually never go down to -15 but I think there is some image artifacting that is more obvious when the iris is fully clamped down.
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post #14 of 34 Old 02-21-2020, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by bdht View Post
The haloing would normally be due to a lower ansi contrast with high lamp/no iris.

The haloing shouldnt be due to a gamma droop though, that would look more overdriven, clipping highlights, crushing blacks? A reduced contrast appearance in brighter scenes, reduced color depth.

Is gamma droop just with new panels? as they "burn in" they're luminance curve changes? Or does it occur throughout the panels life? That would indicate some form of degradation, and eventually youll reach a limit and calibration will cause posterization?
The gamma drift settles down over time and stabilizes as the projector ages. I haven't seen examples of posterization after repeated autocals over the years. It's an excellent tool that serves a number of different purposes.

my 4 year old ~2600 hour RS600 looks like brand new. even more amazing with MadVR DTM
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post #15 of 34 Old 02-21-2020, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
The gamma drift settles down over time and stabilizes as the projector ages. I haven't seen examples of posterization after repeated autocals over the years. It's an excellent tool that serves a number of different purposes.

my 4 year old ~2600 hour RS600 looks like brand new. even more amazing with MadVR DTM
Thats good! on my rs45 it was a very delicate balance to correct the gamma and avoid posterization, i know thats an older unit though.
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post #16 of 34 Old 02-22-2020, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Well the other points have been disproven. Years old, high hour use JVC's calibrate color wise perfectly fine. We know autocal can take care of gamma and contrast has been shown not degrade, so what else is there to talk about?
I'm sorry but was this supposed to be addressed to me? ...'cause then you lost me. I'd said the poster wasn't talking about contrast. Are you saying he was?


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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
The thread title infers what's he seeing could be related to some kind of panel degradation. when I think of that topic, 2 things come to mind, permanent loss of contrast and color gamut shrinkage where it can't be recovered. both were topics on different Sony projectors a few years ago. Some of the HW series has both contrast and color gamut issues over time. This isn't really a common issue on the JVC's so it's good to clear the air on that topic.
If you mean the thread title implies what he's seeing allows us to infer loss of contrast, etc, then now I have to agree. I also agree with what you wrote below that.
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post #17 of 34 Old 02-23-2020, 06:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I had my ISF tech come over and check the unit out... As far as he can tell, the unit is operating as it should. The slight halo effect is still there but it is very minimal... I guess I just have to live with it for another year before I upgrade the projector...

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post #18 of 34 Old 02-23-2020, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
The haloing would normally be due to a lower ansi contrast with high lamp/no iris.

The haloing shouldnt be due to a gamma droop though, that would look more overdriven, clipping highlights, crushing blacks? A reduced contrast appearance in brighter scenes, reduced color depth.

Is gamma droop just with new panels? as they "burn in" they're luminance curve changes? Or does it occur throughout the panels life? That would indicate some form of degradation, and eventually youll reach a limit and calibration will cause posterization?
Usually after 500 to 1,000 hours, you do not see any more droop.
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post #19 of 34 Old 02-23-2020, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
I'm sorry but was this supposed to be addressed to me? ...'cause then you lost me. I'd said the poster wasn't talking about contrast. Are you saying he was?




If you mean the thread title implies what he's seeing allows us to infer loss of contrast, etc, then now I have to agree. I also agree with what you wrote below that.
I was just saying, if we know the panels are not losing color space size, not losing contrast and gamma gets stable, it sounds like there is not a degradation problem with the panels. That is what I meant as in what else is there to talk about regarding panel degradation? JVC's are not perfect, they can have their own sets of trade offs, like bright corners, halos around white text on black background and lower ANSI, but panel degradation is not an issue with them.
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post #20 of 34 Old 02-24-2020, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
I was just saying, if we know the panels are not losing color space size, not losing contrast and gamma gets stable, it sounds like there is not a degradation problem with the panels. That is what I meant as in what else is there to talk about regarding panel degradation? JVC's are not perfect, they can have their own sets of trade offs, like bright corners, halos around white text on black background and lower ANSI, but panel degradation is not an issue with them.
Fair enough.
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post #21 of 34 Old 02-28-2020, 10:43 AM
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I talk to folks regularly that are still using RS1's that look fine - so this isn't something that worries me.
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post #22 of 34 Old 02-28-2020, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I talk to folks regularly that are still using RS1's that look fine - so this isn't something that worries me.
Yep, know a guy that got a new bulb for his RS1 yesterday.
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post #23 of 34 Old 02-28-2020, 01:30 PM
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I talk to folks regularly that are still using RS1's that look fine - so this isn't something that worries me.
Agreed. I was just saying above to Zombie that yes the thread title allows us to infer the poster was maybe talking about loss of contrast Not that there was in fact any loss of contrast. At least, I've never seen it in any of the JVC projectors I've had.
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post #24 of 34 Old 02-29-2020, 06:52 AM
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I think that the title of this thread could be changed to something more in line with what has been said so far, which is that any haloing is very likely not related to the D-ILA panels. Over the last decade, I haven't seen an image issue related to D-ILA panels but only related to optical elements. I mean, with SXRD panels there's more concrete evidence than this, yet there's still a lot of debate, so I think it may be misleading to debate D-ILA degradation with what we have so far. Having said this, I think it's to expect that any imaging device may lose performance with time, even if it's only residual and most often not noticeable, and this could reflect on that apparent loss of colour "vibrancy" (saturation?...). But since we're dealing with bulb projectors, it would take a lot of testing to assess this.

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post #25 of 34 Old 03-01-2020, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon S View Post
Thanks for the replies... I am not complaining about the contrast... I am saying that the image appears to be "blooming" in high contrast scenes.



I did have the projector professionally calibrated by a ISF certified tech. I personally know this tech and he does a very comprehensive calibration, which takes a few hours. He sends his equipment up for recalibration every year and gets recurring classes annually.
couple things to rule out... Do you smoke or allow it in your home? do you have a wood burning fireplace of some sort? Ive seen these things cause this on projectors ive cleaned for other people as well as even on flat screen tvs to some effect from a film that contaminates the panels or mirrors. in fact many things can cause air quality issues that can contribute to this.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Usually after 500 to 1,000 hours, you do not see any more droop.
Mike, Do the new RS1000/2000/3000 models still show gamma droop after the 500 - 1000 hours or is this the older models only?

Just curious if I should do an autocal run on my projector as I am around 1300 hours or so with my bulb.

Should I change to a new bulb before running the autocal to correct the droop more accurately or does it matter?
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post #27 of 34 Old 03-01-2020, 10:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by augiedoggy View Post
couple things to rule out... Do you smoke or allow it in your home? do you have a wood burning fireplace of some sort? Ive seen these things cause this on projectors ive cleaned for other people as well as even on flat screen tvs to some effect from a film that contaminates the panels or mirrors. in fact many things can cause air quality issues that can contribute to this.

No smokers in the family... No fireplace needed in Hawaii... The room is a/c'd...

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post #28 of 34 Old 03-02-2020, 06:07 AM
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OK I still suspect it's some sort of contamination in the optics. The issue you're describing is very common of this I used to see it a lot with projection big screen Tv's as well when the 1st surface mirror would get fogged up you would see that blooming and the credits of a movie.
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post #29 of 34 Old 03-02-2020, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
Mike, Do the new RS1000/2000/3000 models still show gamma droop after the 500 - 1000 hours or is this the older models only?

Just curious if I should do an autocal run on my projector as I am around 1300 hours or so with my bulb.

Should I change to a new bulb before running the autocal to correct the droop more accurately or does it matter?
You can run autocal just to get a report not apply any changes. Then you'll know if you need it or not. You do not need to change the bulb first. Not every projector needs autocal. My RS500 after about 6000 hours had zero gamma droop reported in autocal. My RS4500 also has none.

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post #30 of 34 Old 03-02-2020, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
Mike, Do the new RS1000/2000/3000 models still show gamma droop after the 500 - 1000 hours or is this the older models only?

Just curious if I should do an autocal run on my projector as I am around 1300 hours or so with my bulb.

Should I change to a new bulb before running the autocal to correct the droop more accurately or does it matter?
My NX5 had gamma droop out of the box of about 0.1, so 2.2 gamma was around 2.1.

I corrected this with autocal, and it has not changed since and I am at 300 hours now.

A friend's new NX5 that I calibrated was the same.


You don't even really *need* autocal most of the time. Just setting the gamma to 2.3 would have resulted in a very close 2.2, but I did autocal because I had a spyder5.
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