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post #1 of 32 Old 03-14-2020, 05:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Future proof $50k projector

I am looking to purchase a projector in the $30k - $50k price range for illuminating a screen of 15+ feet length in my perfectly light controlled dedicated home theater room. I believe the best option for me would be a Sony VPL-VW5000ES. After doing quite a bit of research, I came across Barco SP4K-12 which seems to be a worthy option to look at. Since Barco SP4K-12 is a newer model, I believe it would be more future proof when compared to Sony. Please let me know if Barco is worth considering. Also, kindly confirm the list price of Barco SP4K-12. Thank you!
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post #2 of 32 Old 03-14-2020, 06:20 AM
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The Barco will certainly do a much better job of lighting up that size screen. The Barco will be a little sharper and have wider color space, since you will be able to use the color filter. The Barco will have way less contrast than the VW5000. Does your screen need to be AT or will it be a solid screen?

Do you have an equipment room to put the Barco in, since it is 50db?
Does your equipment room have adequate cooling capability, since the Barco exhausts heat at 300 CFM?
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post #3 of 32 Old 03-14-2020, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
The Barco will certainly do a much better job of lighting up that size screen. The Barco will be a little sharper and have wider color space, since you will be able to use the color filter. The Barco will have way less contrast than the VW5000. Does your screen need to be AT or will it be a solid screen?

Do you have an equipment room to put the Barco in, since it is 50db?
Does your equipment room have adequate cooling capability, since the Barco exhausts heat at 300 CFM?

Thank you Mike. Since I am planning for JBL M2 LCR speakers, I believe I need to opt for an AT screen. While I do have adequate width to place the L/R speakers on the sides of the screen, I cannot figure out a way to place the centre speaker if I go with a solid screen. Please advice.


I have a small room before entering the theater area to place the projector and other equipment. I am hoping to use that as a machine room and I can put a small split air conditioner to cool it.


I assumed that Barco SP4K-12's contrast isn't as bad as Barco Balder I was considering earlier. Please let me know if SP4K-12 is capable of producing good black level or if it is going to result in washed out blacks.



Also, could you please share the list price of SP4K-12. Thanks again!
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post #4 of 32 Old 03-14-2020, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ece2k2 View Post
Thank you Mike. Since I am planning for JBL M2 LCR speakers, I believe I need to opt for an AT screen. While I do have adequate width to place the L/R speakers on the sides of the screen, I cannot figure out a way to place the centre speaker if I go with a solid screen. Please advice.


I have a small room before entering the theater area to place the projector and other equipment. I am hoping to use that as a machine room and I can put a small split air conditioner to cool it.


I assumed that Barco SP4K-12's contrast isn't as bad as Barco Balder I was considering earlier. Please let me know if SP4K-12 is capable of producing good black level or if it is going to result in washed out blacks.



Also, could you please share the list price of SP4K-12. Thanks again!
It is 2,300:1 native. About double the Balder, but that is still nothing to brag about. If they would add a manual iris, you could close it down and gain native contrast, at the cost of light output. But with the lumen output the Barco has, you could afford to lose some light output to get the better contrast.

Are you using a woven AT screen or a microperf? If woven, then Balder is definitely the best answer. If microperf, then the Sony is not a bad option. The Sony will not be as bright and will not have as wide a color space, but it will have better contrast. I would still lean toward the Barco.
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post #5 of 32 Old 03-14-2020, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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It is 2,300:1 native. About double the Balder, but that is still nothing to brag about. If they would add a manual iris, you could close it down and gain native contrast, at the cost of light output. But with the lumen output the Barco has, you could afford to lose some light output to get the better contrast.

Are you using a woven AT screen or a microperf? If woven, then Balder is definitely the best answer. If microperf, then the Sony is not a bad option. The Sony will not be as bright and will not have as wide a color space, but it will have better contrast. I would still lean toward the Barco.
I would like to keep the costs as low as possible without having to reduce the planned screen size. I guess microperf screen is cheaper when compared to woven. If that is the case, my choice would be microperf. Also, if I opt for Barco, I believe I should go with SP4K-12 over Balder as SP4K-12 has better specs. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Is there any other projector that I could consider for lighting up a 14-15 feet wide screen?
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post #6 of 32 Old 03-14-2020, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by ece2k2 View Post
I would like to keep the costs as low as possible without having to reduce the planned screen size. I guess microperf screen is cheaper when compared to woven. If that is the case, my choice would be microperf. Also, if I opt for Barco, I believe I should go with SP4K-12 over Balder as SP4K-12 has better specs. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Is there any other projector that I could consider for lighting up a 14-15 feet wide screen?
Woven is cheaper than microperf. I spoke with my rep. I will post MSRP on Monday. Yes, there are cheaper options, but all of them are low native contrast. You have laser E-shift DLP's and you have LCD business class projectors at lower cost.

Last edited by Mike Garrett; 03-14-2020 at 11:33 AM.
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post #7 of 32 Old 03-14-2020, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Woven is cheaper than microperf. I spoke with my rep. I will post MSRP on Monday. Yes, there are cheaper options, but all of them are low native contrast. You have laser E-shift DLP's and you have LCD business class projectors at lower cost.


I never understand why Barco and Christie don’t post all their MSRP on their websites. It shouldn’t be a secret.
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Will you be going 2.40 or 16:9 screen?

Will you used a lens for movies or mask?


There will always be tradeoffs. After 2500 lumens you have to dual stack or go to professional Projectors that require their own rooms.

Try and determine what your goals are for foot lamberts with screen choice with possible lens factored in. 2000 to 12000 lummens a big range.
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post #9 of 32 Old 03-15-2020, 03:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Woven is cheaper than microperf. I spoke with my rep. I will post MSRP on Monday. Yes, there are cheaper options, but all of them are low native contrast. You have laser E-shift DLP's and you have LCD business class projectors at lower cost.
Thanks Mike. Could you please suggest a couple of cheaper models that I could look at.

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Originally Posted by kemannthey View Post
Will you be going 2.40 or 16:9 screen?

Will you used a lens for movies or mask?


There will always be tradeoffs. After 2500 lumens you have to dual stack or go to professional Projectors that require their own rooms.

Try and determine what your goals are for foot lamberts with screen choice with possible lens factored in. 2000 to 12000 lummens a big range.
I am planning to for a 16:9 format screen without masking. I did explore masking screens, but they seem to be incredibly expensive.

Ideally I would like to go with something like JVC RS4500, but I am not too sure about its HDR performance when used with a 14 foot wide 16:9 screen. The other obvious option is to opt for a smaller screen size, but after experiencing a 220” diagonal screen, I am not able to convince myself to go with a 150” diagonal screen.

Is there a way to make JVC RS4500 work for my requirement? Thank you!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ece2k2 View Post
Thanks Mike. Could you please suggest a couple of cheaper models that I could look at.



I am planning to for a 16:9 format screen without masking. I did explore masking screens, but they seem to be incredibly expensive.

Ideally I would like to go with something like JVC RS4500, but I am not too sure about its HDR performance when used with a 14 foot wide 16:9 screen. The other obvious option is to opt for a smaller screen size, but after experiencing a 220” diagonal screen, I am not able to convince myself to go with a 150” diagonal screen.

Is there a way to make JVC RS4500 work for my requirement? Thank you!


What are your seating distances ?


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post #11 of 32 Old 03-15-2020, 03:48 AM - Thread Starter
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What are your seating distances ?

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I am planning to put the seating at around 15’ from the screen and I would like best possible immersion.

An integrator suggested to have second row of seating at 20’. Since we would be just 3 people using the theatre, only one row of seating would be used at any point of time. But he said that having second row of seating will open up an option to experience the theatre in an elevated position at a little farther distance - which would be supposedly better for some movies. Not too sure about this suggestion though.
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Originally Posted by ece2k2 View Post
I am planning to put the seating at around 15’ from the screen and I would like best possible immersion.

An integrator suggested to have second row of seating at 20’. Since we would be just 3 people using the theatre, only one row of seating would be used at any point of time. But he said that having second row of seating will open up an option to experience the theatre in an elevated position at a little farther distance - which would be supposedly better for some movies. Not too sure about this suggestion though.
The brightest woven AT screen is Seymour AV's XD with a gain of 0.94. But an RS4500 at short end of throw, running wide open is only going to get you around 18FL. As I said, the Barco will be a better option.
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post #13 of 32 Old 03-15-2020, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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The brightest woven AT screen is Seymour AV's XD with a gain of 0.94. But an RS4500 at short end of throw, running wide open is only going to get you around 18FL. As I said, the Barco will be a better option.
If I opt for RS4500, please let me know the biggest screen size I could look at - with reasonable HDR quality.

If there is a possibility to use RS4500 with 170” diagonal 16:9 Seymour Centre Stage XD screen, that would be great. I can get a Lumagen or a lens if that would help. Please share your thoughts.
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Originally Posted by ece2k2 View Post
If I opt for RS4500, please let me know the biggest screen size I could look at - with reasonable HDR quality.

If there is a possibility to use RS4500 with 170” diagonal 16:9 Seymour Centre Stage XD screen, that would be great. I can get a Lumagen or a lens if that would help. Please share your thoughts.
Calibrated RS4500 at short end of throw and you are looking at 27FL. Pair that with a Lumagen for DTM and you would have a nice image. You would need to run the projector flat out. Means you would need a projector room or hush box. A DCR will not help you with a 16:9 image on a 16:9 screen.
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If you can sit closer you can have the same imersion on a smaller screen. Sitting 10 feet away from a 10-12 wide screen would get you a smaller screen and better hdr picture for example.

The larger screen works better for 2 rows though.

Setting distance
Screen
Room treatment
Projector

All play a big part on the visual performance of the system. A balanced approach is recommend.

Brightness is important and is a function of the projector, screen gain and room.

16 foot lamberts for sdr is a good goal for treated rooms (dark paint / velvet).
Most are shooting for at least 30 foot Lamberts for hdr some go much brighter.



If I had 2 rows again they would but at 2x screen height and 3x screen height or somewhere close to this as there is where post folks are happy in a commercial theater.

A 2nd row in nice to have for guests.


Have fun!
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post #16 of 32 Old 03-15-2020, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Calibrated RS4500 at short end of throw and you are looking at 27FL. Pair that with a Lumagen for DTM and you would have a nice image. You would need to run the projector flat out. Means you would need a projector room or hush box. A DCR will not help you with a 16:9 image on a 16:9 screen.
Thanks, I think I should consider RS4500 as it seems to be considerably cheaper. I have a room in front of the theatre area that I could use as a projector room, but my theatre room is 26' deep. To achieve 27FL brightness, I believe I need to place the projector at 18'. In that case, I believe hush box is my only option. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Also, is there any other projector that I need to look at that would be comparable to RS4500 in terms of pricing, lumens and picture quality. Thank you!
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Originally Posted by ece2k2 View Post
Thanks, I think I should consider RS4500 as it seems to be considerably cheaper. I have a room in front of the theatre area that I could use as a projector room, but my theatre room is 26' deep. To achieve 27FL brightness, I believe I need to place the projector at 18'. In that case, I believe hush box is my only option. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Also, is there any other projector that I need to look at that would be comparable to RS4500 in terms of pricing, lumens and picture quality. Thank you!
VW5000 that you considered earlier would also be an option, but for less money you could do the 4500 with Lumagen.
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VW5000 that you considered earlier would also be an option, but for less money you could do the 4500 with Lumagen.
While I really liked the specs of VW5000 when compared to RS4500, I am kind of hesitant to buy a 4+ year old product that costs almost twice.
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Originally Posted by ece2k2 View Post
While I really liked the specs of VW5000 when compared to RS4500, I am kind of hesitant to buy a 4+ year old product that costs almost twice.
I would take the 4500 with Lumagen over the VW5000 on a 170" diagonal 0.94 gain screen.
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OP: you might want to peruse the $20k+ sub forum as many owners of these and other pricey PJs post in owners' threads there...

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post #21 of 32 Old 03-16-2020, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
The brightest woven AT screen is Seymour AV's XD with a gain of 0.94.
Mike, do you have measured results for the Severtson SAT-4K, or where are you basing this? Severtson lists SAT-4K as 1.18 gain --> http://severtsonscreens.com/material/SAT4K/22
I have the SAT-4K, but no way to measure the gain.

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post #22 of 32 Old 03-16-2020, 06:14 AM
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Mike, do you have measured results for the Severtson SAT-4K, or where are you basing this? Severtson lists SAT-4K as 1.18 gain --> http://severtsonscreens.com/material/SAT4K/22
I have the SAT-4K, but no way to measure the gain.
Anyone listing a woven AT screen above 1.0 is full of BS. Most screen manufacturers list gain like most projector manufacturers list contrast. You can't trust the number with most of them. Chris Seymour has at least tried to list gain so that it can be compared. If you look at what he has listed for XD, you will see two numbers. First number is Benchmarked gain of 1.2. Second number is unbenchmark gain of 1.0. What Chris is saying is: if you are going to compare the gain of my screen against the other manufacturers, then use this BS number, which compares somewhat to the other manufacturers BS number. If you want to know the actual gain it is 1.0.
http://www.seymourav.com/screens.php
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The Palidan is not the only lens out there.

Schneider cine-digitar anamorphic 1.33x lens are still being made and used with 4k setups. They allow a horizontal expansion and are normally used with a sled to do CIH.

I would not be surprised to find a Schneider lens in the Barco widescreen configs but I don't know their gear.


Have fun, your planning will pay off !
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post #24 of 32 Old 03-16-2020, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ece2k2 View Post
I am looking to purchase a projector in the $30k - $50k price range for illuminating a screen of 15+ feet length in my perfectly light controlled dedicated home theater room. I believe the best option for me would be a Sony VPL-VW5000ES. After doing quite a bit of research, I came across Barco SP4K-12 which seems to be a worthy option to look at. Since Barco SP4K-12 is a newer model, I believe it would be more future proof when compared to Sony. Please let me know if Barco is worth considering. Also, kindly confirm the list price of Barco SP4K-12. Thank you!
I checked with my Rep, the Barco does not have an MSRP, so I can't post a price.
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post #25 of 32 Old 03-16-2020, 08:39 PM - Thread Starter
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I checked with my Rep, the Barco does not have an MSRP, so I can't post a price.
Thanks for checking Mike.

I was looking at the screen options for the JVC RS4500 projector and I was wondering if the following Seymour AV screen + masking panel combination is a sensible choice with JBL M2 LCR speakers positioned behind the screen. With masking panels in place, the resulting 16:9 picture would measure ~170" diagonally. When I upgrade to a more brighter projector after a few years, I can remove the masking panels and use the full 200" wide 2.35:1 screen. Please let me know if you see any potential issue with this approach.

Fixed Frame Screen
F200: 2.35 200”w (217.4”d)
Center Stage XD + black
Premier 3.3”

Magnetic Masking Panels
CH235 (sides)
200”w original image
Millibel AT (3” velvet)

Last edited by ece2k2; 03-16-2020 at 08:44 PM.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Anyone listing a woven AT screen above 1.0 is full of BS. Most screen manufacturers list gain like most projector manufacturers list contrast. You can't trust the number with most of them. Chris Seymour has at least tried to list gain so that it can be compared. If you look at what he has listed for XD, you will see two numbers. First number is Benchmarked gain of 1.2. Second number is unbenchmark gain of 1.0. What Chris is saying is: if you are going to compare the gain of my screen against the other manufacturers, then use this BS number, which compares somewhat to the other manufacturers BS number. If you want to know the actual gain it is 1.0.
http://www.seymourav.com/screens.php
Would be nice if everyone measured and specced the real gain. When I asked this specifically, Severtson answered: "Based on all of our readings the gain is 1.18 gain compared to a Matte White sample."

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post #27 of 32 Old 03-17-2020, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by ece2k2 View Post
Thanks for checking Mike.

I was looking at the screen options for the JVC RS4500 projector and I was wondering if the following Seymour AV screen + masking panel combination is a sensible choice with JBL M2 LCR speakers positioned behind the screen. With masking panels in place, the resulting 16:9 picture would measure ~170" diagonally. When I upgrade to a more brighter projector after a few years, I can remove the masking panels and use the full 200" wide 2.35:1 screen. Please let me know if you see any potential issue with this approach.

Fixed Frame Screen
F200: 2.35 200”w (217.4”d)
Center Stage XD + black
Premier 3.3”

Magnetic Masking Panels
CH235 (sides)
200”w original image
Millibel AT (3” velvet)
Are you talking about getting panels that mask the 200" wide 2.35 down to 170" diagonal 16:9 with another set of masking panels to mask the 170" diagonal 16:9 to a 2.35 screen? So one set would stay in all the time and you would only install the second set for scope movies?
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post #28 of 32 Old 03-17-2020, 08:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Are you talking about getting panels that mask the 200" wide 2.35 down to 170" diagonal 16:9 with another set of masking panels to mask the 170" diagonal 16:9 to a 2.35 screen? So one set would stay in all the time and you would only install the second set for scope movies?
Yes, 200” wide 2.35:1 CIH screen masked down to 170” diagonal 16:9. I am planning to use it as a simple 16:9 screen for now - for both 16:9 movies and scope movies. I understand that there would be black top/bottom bars while watching scope movies, but I can live with that for now unless there exists a better idea. I read that there is a constant area screen with 4 way masking panels in Seymour website, but not too sure about the available sizes and pricing.

I don’t think it is a good idea to watch scope movies without masking as RS4500 would struggle to handle 200” wide screen size - especially with HDR.

Thank you!

Last edited by ece2k2; 03-17-2020 at 08:13 AM.
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post #29 of 32 Old 03-17-2020, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ece2k2 View Post
Yes, 200” wide 2.35:1 CIH screen masked down to 170” diagonal 16:9. I am planning to use it as a simple 16:9 screen for now - for both 16:9 movies and scope movies. I understand that there would be black top/bottom bars while watching scope movies, but I can live with that for now unless there exists a better idea. I read that there is a constant area screen with 4 way masking panels in Seymour website, but not too sure about the available sizes and pricing.

I don’t think it is a good idea to watch scope movies without masking as RS4500 would struggle to handle 200” wide screen size - especially with HDR.

Thank you!
You missed part of what I posted. You can have a second set of masks made to fill in the black top and bottom bars on the 170" screen, for scope movies.
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post #30 of 32 Old 03-17-2020, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
You missed part of what I posted. You can have a second set of masks made to fill in the black top and bottom bars on the 170" screen, for scope movies.

Understood, thanks. 200"w 2.35:1 screen with CH235 masks on the sides would result in a 173.6" diagonal 16:9 image. So the second set of masks need to be custom made I guess - as Seymour AV website lists only a 170" diagonal CW178 top/bottom masks which won't fit my requirement. Please let me know if constant image area screen with 4 way masking panels would be a better bet for me.



Also, please let me know if I need to look at any other brand for screens with masking panels in addition to Seymour AV.
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