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post #31 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
I don't get why TI doesn't get their act together and make a DLP at close to the contrast of LCOS. That would totally kill all the competition.
I expect TI already dominates the market to the extent it does not care too much about JVC's carving out a niche for itself in the small market for expensive home cinema projectors.

And DLP manufactures seem to be complacent, they dominate the lower cost end of the home cinema market, and at the high end the light cannon projectors be they for the very wealthy with very large personal cinemas or the commercial cinema market.

Hell JVC even makes some DLP projectors as LCOS projectors are too expensive to make to compete at the lower cost end.

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post #32 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by dovercat View Post
I expect TI already dominates the market to the extent it does not care too much about JVC's carving out a niche for itself in the small market for expensive home cinema projectors.

And DLP manufactures seem to be complacent, they dominate the lower cost end of the home cinema market, and at the high end the light cannon projectors be they for the very wealthy with very large personal cinemas or the commercial cinema market.

Hell JVC even makes some DLP projectors as LCOS projectors are too expensive to make to compete at the lower cost end.
It would be one thing if they at least stayed the same. Instead TI made them worse. The chips are smaller than the 1" 1080p (even thought they're 4x the resolution), and the contrast doesn't come close to the 1080p DC4.

A 35mm film projector can get ~3,000:1 contrast which is the bare minimum for acceptable contrast. The best of the best DC4 were getting ~6,000:1, and over 20,000:1 dynamic. None of the current DLP 4k come close.

The BENQ HT9060 would be an outstanding projector if it weren't for what everyone calls who does a review, "disappointing contrast."

"measuring 836:1 native and 3,770:1 with Smart Eco dynamic mode engaged. " That's just plain terrible!

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...ojector-review
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post #33 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
It would be one thing if they at least stayed the same. Instead TI made them worse. The chips are smaller than the 1" 1080p (even thought they're 4x the resolution), and the contrast doesn't come close to the 1080p DC4.

A 35mm film projector can get ~3,000:1 contrast which is the bare minimum for acceptable contrast. The best of the best DC4 were getting ~6,000:1, and over 20,000:1 dynamic. None of the current DLP 4k come close.

The BENQ HT9060 would be an outstanding projector if it weren't for what everyone calls who does a review, "disappointing contrast."

"measuring 836:1 native and 3,770:1 with Smart Eco dynamic mode engaged. " That's just plain terrible!

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...ojector-review
According to "Color and Mastering for Digital Cinema" by Glenn Kennel
Kodak Vision 2383 film print, contrast ratio of about 1,600:1
post 1997 Vision Premier film print has seen limited use, contrast ratio of nearly 4,000:1
"It is important to note that this represents the maximum sequential contrast ratio that can be reproduced by a typical print film and .... that these conditions are never achieved within a single frame."


SMPTE 196M-1995 35mm film print reference white open gate centre of screen 16fL
Film transparency and lens reduce to 13.92fL with 2.39:1 aspect ratio. 11.658fL with 1.85:1 aspect ratio
Screen black level with the projector off for theatrical presentation is encouraged to be <0.01fL but maybe higher, 14fL:0.1fL = 1,400:1, 12fL:0.1fL = 1,200:1

Below 1,200:1 is below even the minimum spec a commercial cinema is supposed to endeavour to meet.
So very disappointing for a projector selling for $9,000 and claiming to be a "cinepro" "reference grade pro-cinema" "delivering an authentic reproduction of the director's vision" and "50,000:1 contrast".
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Last edited by dovercat; 05-15-2020 at 12:39 PM.
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post #34 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by dovercat View Post
According to "Color and Mastering for Digital Cinema" by Glenn Kennel
Kodak Vision 2383 film print, contrast ratio of about 1,600:1
post 1997 Vision Premier film print has seen limited use, contrast ratio of nearly 4,000:1
"It is important to note that this represents the maximum sequential contrast ratio that can be reproduced by a typical print film and .... that these conditions are never achieved within a single frame."


SMPTE 196M-1995 35mm film print reference white open gate centre of screen 16fL
Film transparency and lens reduce to 13.92fL with 2.39:1 aspect ratio. 11.658fL with 1.85:1 aspect ratio
Screen black level with the projector off for theatrical presentation is encouraged to be <0.01fL but maybe higher, 14fL:0.1fL = 1,400:1, 12fL:0.1fL = 1,200:1

I can't find the post but Alan Gouger the former owner of the forum wrote a post about measuring his film projector and said he could easily get over 3,000:1 minimum, so I was just being conservative.

With 16 fl and the conditions which are required by law for cinemas, even the best of the best millions to one of the Christie Eclipse would measure the same ~1400:1 too. Therefore, you don't want the complete cinema experience at home, with sticky floors and all. You could easily get that with first generation 576p LCD for about $50 off Ebay and tell yourself, "I got 'er dun!"

Just because that's what theaters are required to do, doesn't mean what film is capable of shouldn't be taken into account, because directors weren't saying, "you know, I don't like the fact you make it too dark here, turn up those lights to follow SMPTE 196M-1995!"

Film is able to do over 1.02 orders of magnitude over the BenQ. That's just unacceptable!

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Kodak motion picture film has maximum densities of roughly 4.0 (for the standard Vision Color Print Film 2383) and 5.0 (for the high-end Vision Premier Color Print Film 2393). For film the density is defined so that the light transmission equals 10-density so a density of 4.0 corresponds to a transmission of 1/10,000 or to a dynamic range of 10,000. This corresponds to Dynamic Range values of 10,000 and 100,000, though production movie prints will not reach these maximum values. With typical exposure and development, movie prints can be expected to deliver roughly a factor of 10 less than their spec maximum.
https://www.extremetech.com/electron...otout-part-i/5

Last edited by Debonaire; 05-15-2020 at 12:44 PM.
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post #35 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
Kodak motion picture film has maximum densities of roughly 4.0 (for the standard Vision Color Print Film 2383) and 5.0 (for the high-end Vision Premier Color Print Film 2393)...
https://www.extremetech.com/electron...otout-part-i/5
According to "Color and Mastering for Digital Cinema" by Glenn Kennel
Vision Color Print Film 2383 has a density of 3.2
Vision Premier Color Print Film has a density of approximately 3.6
Glenn Kennel worked for Kodak until 2003 when he left to be a consultant on DCI cinema and boasts an impressive resume and accolades, so I am going to assume he is right.
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post #36 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
It would be one thing if they at least stayed the same. Instead TI made them worse. The chips are smaller than the 1" 1080p (even thought they're 4x the resolution), and the contrast doesn't come close to the 1080p DC4.
They're using .67 to display 2160 using an actuator to multiply 1528 by 2. And they didn't stop there. For example, JVC is using a .47/48 chip flashed 4 times to get more resolution in their DLP projectors, as are Benq, Optoma, and some others in some of their projectors.

This goes to the idiom, "They don't make them like they used to" I guess.
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post #37 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by skylarlove1999 View Post
His NX9 was sent to JVC for repair . So in the meantime he has an Epson . Not sure if his dealer gave it to him as a lender or he got it at cost but he didn't give up his JVC NX9 for an Epson.

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After last evening,s episode , i can tell you now he will be getting his money back on the NX9 !!!!
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post #38 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 01:32 PM
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I sold my NX7, but I went way back....to a high-end DLP. It also doesn't have the blacks of the NX7 but over all blacks were convincing enough and I gained other attributes to the image that outweighed that, that I liked. They are just two imaging philosophies. JVC uses polarized light; DLP uses DMDs. I would need a JVC with a lot of horsepower, probably like a bright laser, for it to look the way I like the images to look.
Actually there is a Marantz VP 11-S2 here in Aus going VERY cheap......i had one of these when they first appeared....in the vicinity of $30K at the time.

These have an absolute gem of a lens and provide an awesomley sharp/clear artifact free image . From memory i also think contrast was in the area of 15,000:1

Might actually grab it and re-vist old memories.. There is definatley something to an image from a DLP based PJ...
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post #39 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by dovercat View Post
According to "Color and Mastering for Digital Cinema" by Glenn Kennel

Vision Color Print Film 2383 has a density of 3.2

Vision Premier Color Print Film has a density of approximately 3.6

Glenn Kennel worked for Kodak until 2003 when he left to be a consultant on DCI cinema and boasts an impressive resume and accolades, so I am going to assume he is right.
The thing is as soon as you get into the digital domain and touch the colour grading controls your contrast becomes infinity.

Also, they use OLED viewfinders and monitors on set to what they are framing. They also use OLED monitors in the grading suits for critical colour. They do not grade on a projector.

Source: I work in the industry.

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post #40 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 01:36 PM
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Actually there is a Marantz VP 11-S2 here in Aus going VERY cheap......i had one of these when they first appeared....in the vicinity of $30K at the time.



These have an absolute gem of a lens and provide an awesomley sharp/clear artifact free image . From memory i also think contrast was in the area of 15,000:1



Might actually grab it and re-vist old memories.. There is definatley something to an image from a DLP based PJ...
Grab it and send it up here! I'll calibrate it for you

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post #41 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Actually there is a Marantz VP 11-S2 here in Aus going VERY cheap......i had one of these when they first appeared....in the vicinity of $30K at the time.

These have an absolute gem of a lens and provide an awesomley sharp/clear artifact free image . From memory i also think contrast was in the area of 15,000:1

Might actually grab it and re-vist old memories.. There is definatley something to an image from a DLP based PJ...

Good to hear, Paul. And I know you've owned, tested, or played with many high-end brand new projectors.

My guess for me and perhaps some others who are rekindling that high-end DLP spirit, it might be that these DLPs have come down in price to a more mortal level. People can now get an incredible!!! image with quality hardware from a projector that once cost over $20K, $30K, or even over $40K when new.

As far as contrast, some of them will get you around c. 10,000:1 native and around 30,000 dynamic. But you know what, those numbers really don't do their images justice. What you see onscreen with these beauties is really compelling!
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post #42 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by dovercat View Post
According to "Color and Mastering for Digital Cinema" by Glenn Kennel
Vision Color Print Film 2383 has a density of 3.2
Vision Premier Color Print Film has a density of approximately 3.6
Glenn Kennel worked for Kodak until 2003 when he left to be a consultant on DCI cinema and boasts an impressive resume and accolades, so I am going to assume he is right.
Until 2002 when Dr. Rodger Morton of Kodak's R&D team posted a journal article film is usually rated up to a density of 4.0 which is over 8,000:1.

But film can actually do a physical maximum of ~20 stops or ~6.0 density.

Which is why a rep for Kodak said their film prints of Minority Report were approximately 10,000:1 dynamic range. Which is already proving what I said of 3,000:1 being a conservative number of what film is capable of.

I don't understand why you're arguing when I said 3,000:1, which is below the 3,981:1 of what you said your source said. Which also confirms what my source Alan Gouger said too. Maybe his print wasn't one of the most pristine, or his measurement environment wasn't ideal.

My point was film can easily exceed well over 3,000:1, which again is well over the 1400:1.

What were we arguing again?

Oh yeah! I remember. 836:1 of the BenQ contrast royally sucks and is pathetic. Not to say that's BenQ's fault, what they made is amazing. The fault lies in TI's 4K DMDs which have horrid contrast which was beat about ~20 years ago!

Also, that means no matter how much BenQ tries to hide their "disappointing contrast," even if they clamp down on the iris, then nothing on the screen is the maximum brightness. Which means, at no time is there an instantaneous contrast over 836:1.

What you need to do is clamp down the iris, then measure, and then fully open the iris and measure again.

Quote:
Kodak image scientist Dr. Roger Morton and his team published a technical paper "Assessing the Quality of Motion Picture Systems from Scene-to-Digital Data" in the February/March 2002 issue of the SMPTE Journal (Volume 111, No. 2, pp. 85-96).



The analysis of dynamic range was done by a special test scene using various shiny metallic spheres reflecting specular highlights to evaluate the dynamic highlight range above an 18% gray. The film tested was Kodak VISION 500T Color Negative Film 5279. The data showed the "Dynamic Highlight Range of 18% Gray" was 15.9 stops. In other words, the film was able to record detail in highlights as much as 15.9 stops above a normal 18% gray card exposure, plus darker scene elements 3.3 stops below an 18% gray (Figure 16 in the paper). The paper concludes "Thus, real world scenes can produce 20 stops of dynamic range, or an intensity range of about 1,000,000:1". The published paper details how the test was conducted, and has scanned images showing the results of the test.



Kodak normally evaluates color negative film sensitometry over a 4.0 log exposure range (about 13 stops). Dr. Morton's test was part of an evaluation that took film to the limit in a practical scene, with super-highlight specular reflections in metal spheres that went well beyond the normal 13 stop range routinely evaluated. By routine sensitometric measurements (4.0 log exposure), the new VISION2 films generally have better latitude and linearity than the older generation of films. But you would be extrapolating to say what was happening with another 7 stops of exposure. I'm sure the new Kodak VISION2 films will be included in any future work by the team that wrote the 2002 SMPTE paper.
http://www.electronicipc.com/Journal...m?code=4539001
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post #43 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
Also, that means no matter how much BenQ tries to hide their "disappointing contrast," even if they clamp down on the iris, then nothing on the screen is the maximum brightness. Which means, at no time is there an instantaneous contrast over 836:1.

What you need to do is clamp down the iris, then measure, and then fully open the iris and measure again.
The 9060 doesn't have an iris you can clamp down. Outstanding lens with a nice and steady, even image from its LED light source, great colors, but its 3D and its motion speed left me wanting. Another member here did say his use of a lens significantly improved its 3D performance, however.

Its contrast with more and more content I tried did prove difficult for my own tastes later on.
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After last evening,s episode , i can tell you now he will be getting his money back on the NX9 !!!!
The problem is when you pay this much for something your expectations are sky high and when it fall short then that’s a sad thing, when working perfectly few if any projector will produce a better image. Surprised JVC couldn’t come up with a deal that keep him on-side instead of demanding a refund.

Personally I would have accepted an N7 and the balance.
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post #45 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Good to hear, Paul. And I know you've owned, tested, or played with many high-end brand new projectors.



My guess for me and perhaps some others who are rekindling that high-end DLP spirit, it might be that these DLPs have come down in price to a more mortal level. People can now get an incredible!!! image with quality hardware from a projector that once cost over $20K, $30K, or even over $40K when new.



As far as contrast, some of them will get you around c. 10,000:1 native and around 30,000 dynamic. But you know what, those numbers really don't do their images justice. What you see onscreen with these beauties is really compelling!
What projector are you running now mate?

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After last evening,s episode , i can tell you now he will be getting his money back on the NX9 !!!!
What was wrong with it?
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What projector are you running now mate?

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Hi. I have a three chipper ...Runco LS-10 version .i
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
They're using .67 to display 2160 using an actuator to multiply 1528 by 2. And they didn't stop there. For example, JVC is using a .47/48 chip flashed 4 times to get more resolution in their DLP projectors, as are Benq, Optoma, and some others in some of their projectors.

This goes to the idiom, "They don't make them like they used to" I guess.
Exactly! And I'm the bad guy for pointing that out? We spend our hard earned money and deserve more from companies than this garbage they try to sell us as cutting edge. What from 20 years ago?

Sharp optics aren't anything new either. The Sony Qualia 004 could do the same 16 years ago.

Most of these companies take advantage of people, because the ordinary person isn't coming onto AVS. It's all about that 4k.

I have some relatives who couldn't tell the difference between a friend's Mitsubishi 37" XC (maximum of 720p) presentation monitor and a similarly sized Sceptre 4k LCD, resolution wise.

His only comment was, "The Mitsubishi is really big, but it has much better color." "What about resolution?" "I don't know, they look the same, except the Sceptre looks pale."

Family members said the same about my 720p CRT projector. That besides being big, the colors looked really deep (saturated).

So pretty much, your average tv watcher only cares about colors and size, and to a degree clarity. They don't care at all about resolution or contrast, except if it's printed on their box.

But what's really funny is how we can get practically into a fist fight for one liking clarity, moderate contrast, and color presentation.

While the other side will get angry saying: "contrast is king, if you want quality get a JVC. A DLP is only for the washed masses, since DLP has been beat long ago by King JVC. Or settle on it's prince Sony SXRD!" Bah!
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Hi. I have a three chipper ...Runco LS-10 version .i
Oh yeah cool my grandfather has an ls5, nice machine. Very sharp.

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post #50 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
The 9060 doesn't have an iris you can clamp down. Outstanding lens with a nice and steady, even image from its LED light source, great colors, but its 3D and its motion speed left me wanting. Another member here did say his use of a lens significantly improved its 3D performance, however.

Its contrast with more and more content I tried did prove difficult for my own tastes later on.
Really? Ok so the LED is acting like an iris and can modulate in a certain number of steps from completely on to fully off?
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post #51 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
The problem is when you pay this much for something your expectations are sky high and when it fall short then that’s a sad thing, when working perfectly few if any projector will produce a better image. Surprised JVC couldn’t come up with a deal that keep him on-side instead of demanding a refund.

Personally I would have accepted an N7 and the balance.
Why would you accept an N7 ??? There is yet another instance of a user with a Brand New just purchased N7 on our local forums with atrocious panel uniformity.....i personally know of MANY other examples!

The NX9 being referenced here actually went back to a JVC Sevice centre after many issues with vertical "Stripes" ......came back home to the user deemed "Nothing Wrong With It" ....set up and BAMMM !! check attached images,s

I have an N5 here that i got from a disgrunted user that you cannot get through a movie without either "vertical" stripes OR the image turing to a beutifull "Pink" hue!!!

JVC lattest effort SUCKS! ....

My Z1/RS4500 id say will be the last JVC i own judging by the latest series!!
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post #52 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Oh yeah cool my grandfather has an ls5, nice machine. Very sharp.

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I remember. I have the LS-5 too. The LS-10i, I just got a few months ago... is very bright. ...a lot of fun.
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post #53 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
Really? Ok so the LED is acting like an iris and can modulate in a certain number of steps from completely on to fully off?
Yes, dynamic dimming.

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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
The NX9 being referenced here actually went back to a JVC Sevice centre after many issues with vertical "Stripes" ......came back home to the user deemed "Nothing Wrong With It" ....set up and BAMMM !!
Sorry to hear about that, woofer.
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post #54 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
After last evening,s episode , i can tell you now he will be getting his money back on the NX9 !!!!
You can't tease us like that and not tell the story

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post #55 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Why would you accept an N7 ??? There is yet another instance of a user with a Brand New just purchased N7 on our local forums with atrocious panel uniformity.....i personally know of MANY other examples!

The NX9 being referenced here actually went back to a JVC Sevice centre after many issues with vertical "Stripes" ......came back home to the user deemed "Nothing Wrong With It" ....set up and BAMMM !! check attached images,s

I have an N5 here that i got from a disgrunted user that you cannot get through a movie without either "vertical" stripes OR the image turing to a beutifull "Pink" hue!!!

JVC lattest effort SUCKS! ....

My Z1/RS4500 id say will be the last JVC i own judging by the latest series!!
Sounds like you Aussie's have some bad luck with the new range. I've calibrated dozens and dozens of these for clients with no issues at all. Only uniformity issues I've seen are elevated corners, which are present with every JVC model, including the Z1/4500. Outside of that I rarely if ever hear about or see issues from clients, friends or even in my setup (NX9). I see uniformity issues with EVERY Sony projector I calibrate, especially in the lower IREs, plus processing artifacts. I've only done a couple Epson's, so can't speak to those much. Same with the DLPs.

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post #56 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Sounds like you Aussie's have some bad luck with the new range.
Yeah Kris, but not only that , and more the bigger issue is that unlike JVC USA who fuss free and willingly change over a defective unit for the customer , here in OZ its a major drama and usually very stressfull for the customer!!

The procedure here to even get it acknowedged that the projector actually has an "issue" is very drawn out.

If it was as in the US , it would make so many disgrunted JVC users here be prepared to give JVC a "Second Chance"
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post #57 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 09:10 PM
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Brand new N7
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post #58 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
It would be one thing if they at least stayed the same. Instead TI made them worse. The chips are smaller than the 1" 1080p (even thought they're 4x the resolution), and the contrast doesn't come close to the 1080p DC4.

A 35mm film projector can get ~3,000:1 contrast which is the bare minimum for acceptable contrast. The best of the best DC4 were getting ~6,000:1, and over 20,000:1 dynamic. None of the current DLP 4k come close.

The BENQ HT9060 would be an outstanding projector if it weren't for what everyone calls who does a review, "disappointing contrast."

"measuring 836:1 native and 3,770:1 with Smart Eco dynamic mode engaged. " That's just plain terrible!

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...ojector-review
The sequential contrast of a projected celluloid film might be 3000-1, although this would be exceptional, but the maximum contrast in any single frame would be about 200-1:

"In 1997, Kodak introduced a higher contrast print film, Vision Premier, which has seen limited
use. This premium print stock boosts the contrast of the overall picture and provides deeper
blacks. Figure 2.17 compares the projected print-through curves of Vision and Vision Premier
print films. The density range of approximately 3.6 for Vision Premier corresponds to a contrast
ratio of nearly 4,000:1, which exceeds the capabilities of today’s digital cinema projectors.
It is important to note that this represents the maximum sequential contrast ratio that can be
reproduced by a typical print film, from the brightest white (D-min) to the darkest black (D-max)
and that these conditions are never achieved within a single frame. A very high contrast picture
may exhibit an intra-frame contrast of only 200:1. So the deeper blacks are most readily seen
(and have the greatest impact) as the picture fades to black..."
Color and mastering for digital cinema, p24.
Sequential Contrast
The sequential contrast ratio is computed by dividing the luminance of the peak white by the
luminance of black (code value zero). This is a very important image quality parameter for digital
cinema and an area where recent improvements in sequential contrast to 2000:1 (from 1200:1)
have gone a long way towards closing the gap between film and digital projection. Although a
film print is capable of a density range of over 4.0 (10,000:1) this immense range is limited by the
dynamic range of the negative and further reduced by projection flare, so that the sequential
contrast range of typical projected print is only about 3000:1. With sequential contrast, a bigger
number is always better, so this is specified as a minimum sequential contrast of 1500:1 for mastering
and review rooms and 1200:1 for cinemas.
Color and mastering for digital cinema, p72-73.


So the sequential contrast of many DLP projectors, that use DB (Dynamic Black or dynamic lamp dimming / BenQ = SmartEco) or a DI, including the HT9060 is sufficient to display the entire contrast range of most celluloid films and it is sufficient to display the intra-frame (~ANSI) contrast of any particular celluloid film frame. We have to remember that most commercial cinema DLP projectors use a fixed intensity lamp and have no DI.

The attached file (Table 5-A from the above source) lays out the requirements for commercial digital cinema.
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post #59 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
The sequential contrast of a projected celluloid film might be 3000-1, although this would be exceptional, but the maximum contrast in any single frame would be about 200-1:

"In 1997, Kodak introduced a higher contrast print film, Vision Premier, which has seen limited
use. This premium print stock boosts the contrast of the overall picture and provides deeper
blacks. Figure 2.17 compares the projected print-through curves of Vision and Vision Premier
print films. The density range of approximately 3.6 for Vision Premier corresponds to a contrast
ratio of nearly 4,000:1, which exceeds the capabilities of today’s digital cinema projectors.
It is important to note that this represents the maximum sequential contrast ratio that can be
reproduced by a typical print film, from the brightest white (D-min) to the darkest black (D-max)
and that these conditions are never achieved within a single frame. A very high contrast picture
may exhibit an intra-frame contrast of only 200:1. So the deeper blacks are most readily seen
(and have the greatest impact) as the picture fades to black..."
Color and mastering for digital cinema, p24.
Sequential Contrast
The sequential contrast ratio is computed by dividing the luminance of the peak white by the
luminance of black (code value zero). This is a very important image quality parameter for digital
cinema and an area where recent improvements in sequential contrast to 2000:1 (from 1200:1)
have gone a long way towards closing the gap between film and digital projection. Although a
film print is capable of a density range of over 4.0 (10,000:1) this immense range is limited by the
dynamic range of the negative and further reduced by projection flare, so that the sequential
contrast range of typical projected print is only about 3000:1. With sequential contrast, a bigger
number is always better, so this is specified as a minimum sequential contrast of 1500:1 for mastering
and review rooms and 1200:1 for cinemas.
Color and mastering for digital cinema, p72-73.


So the sequential contrast of many DLP projectors, that use DB (Dynamic Black or dynamic lamp dimming / BenQ = SmartEco) or a DI, including the HT9060 is sufficient to display the entire contrast range of most celluloid films and it is sufficient to display the intra-frame (ANSI) contrast of any particular celluloid film frame. We have to remember that most commercial cinema DLP projectors use a fixed intensity lamp and have no DI.

The attached file (Table 5-A from the above source) lays out the requirements for commercial digital cinema.
Why are you talking about film?

That has not been relevant since cinemas had film projectors.

The very second I bring a film neg into a computer and start to grade it for DCP then the contrast ratio potential is virtually limitless.

When I export that to say 10 Bit HDR then you need to look at that spec. The in frame contrast ratio of the source capture device is actually irrelevant if the colorist decides to mess with the signal, which is 100% of the time these days.

Anything shot on film and mastered digitally, which is everything ever filmed now will not be at the mercy of the source camera or celluloid any longer its now in the digital domain.

Unless you plan on projecting actual film onto your screen, these are rather pointless statistics and I would not strive to recreate those conditions.
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post #60 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Why are you talking about film?

That has not been relevant since cinemas had film projectors.

The very second I bring a film neg into a computer and start to grade it for DCP then the contrast ratio potential is virtually limitless.

When I export that to say 10 Bit HDR then you need to look at that spec. The in frame contrast ratio of the source capture device is actually irrelevant if the colorist decides to mess with the signal, which is 100% of the time these days.

Anything shot on film and mastered digitally, which is everything ever filmed now will not be at the mercy of the source camera or celluloid any longer its now in the digital domain.

Unless you plan on projecting actual film onto your screen, these are rather pointless statistics and I would not strive to recreate those conditions.
Film contrast was mentioned in the post I replied to. However, the subject of contrast in mastered content for commercial cinema is still of interest, which is what table 5-A is referring to.

Last edited by DunMunro; 05-15-2020 at 11:54 PM.
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