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post #61 of 195 Old 05-16-2020, 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
The thing is as soon as you get into the digital domain and touch the colour grading controls your contrast becomes infinity.

Also, they use OLED viewfinders and monitors on set to what they are framing. They also use OLED monitors in the grading suits for critical colour. They do not grade on a projector.

Source: I work in the industry.

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Relevance?

How is OLED relevant to what the minimum contrast needed is to at least emulate what film print projectors were capable of or the minimum commercial film print cinemas were encouraged to try to display. As a minimum acceptable standard for home cinema projectors claiming to bring the big screen cinema experience to the home. Especially those making claims like Benq does of providing a "cinepro" "reference grade pro-cinema" experience. Products making such claims should in my opinion be at least capable of equalling if not exceeding what film print and DCI cinemas are supposed to aim for, and probably what reference projector viewing rooms are supposed to aim for. Otherwise they are not capable of doing what they claim.

The problem with projector manufacturers is the lack of specifications relevant to in use. What do buyers get?Resolution that might not be native, lumen output that is unachievable calibrated, on/off contrast that not achievable at the claimed lumen output and might not be achievable at all, some indication of colorspace but in many cases color is inaccurate out of the box. So everyone has to rely on reviewers and word of mouth as to what projectors are like in reality as opposed to what their manufacturers claim. And in many cases buyers have to calibrate their projectors using a sensor or hire a calibrator to get their projector to produce the best image it is capable of. Its hardly a industry renowned for truth and plug and play.

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post #62 of 195 Old 05-16-2020, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by dovercat View Post
Relevance?



How is OLED relevant to what the minimum contrast needed is to at least emulate what film print projectors were capable of or the minimum commercial film print cinemas were encouraged to try to display.
Relevance, well my point is that it's a bit backward to try and peddle decades old specifications and guidelines as the bare minimum target to aim for.

35mm Film has not been run through projectors in the local multiplexes for at least 10+ years. Why would you try and emulate the contrast or lack thereof that those systems were capable of in the home environment when we can do literally 100x better.

OLED is very relevant, because the actual film markers are using them on set, they are grading and editing on them for the most part.

Arguing the semantics of celluloid contrast on the nagative is stupid because the digital workflow is not held to its limitations, As soon as you digitise your negs the sky is the limit, this has actually been the workflow for more than 20 years now.

As such, projectors should be aiming to meet the new guidelines which are the HDR specs. 0.0005 to 500nits or, 1,000,000:1 contrast is a good goal.

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post #63 of 195 Old 05-16-2020, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Relevance, well my point is that it's a bit backward to try and peddle decades old specifications and guidelines as the bare minimum target to aim for.

35mm Film has not been run through projectors in the local multiplexes for at least 10+ years. Why would you try and emulate the contrast or lack thereof that those systems were capable of in the home environment when we can do literally 100x better.

OLED is very relevant, because the actual film markers are using them on set, they are grading and editing on them for the most part.

Arguing the semantics of celluloid contrast on the nagative is stupid because the digital workflow is not held to its limitations, As soon as you digitise your negs the sky is the limit, this has actually been the workflow for more than 20 years now.

As such, projectors should be aiming to meet the new guidelines which are the HDR specs. 0.0005 to 500nits or, 1,000,000:1 contrast is a good goal.

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Most blu-rays and DVDs I own are of 10+ year old films. And over my life I have been to far more film print cinema shows than DCI.

I think most consumers being sold home cinema projectors are looking to emulate the cinema experience. That was film print cinema or today DCI cinema. Film print had higher contrast so is a higher minimum to expect manufacturers claiming to provide the cinema experience at home to meet.
Few cinemas at least near where I live are HDR.

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post #64 of 195 Old 05-16-2020, 08:28 AM
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Lets not forget that we watch these images with our eyes and not with CR measuring equipment. Some say instantaneous visual CR is only about 100:1 and others say as high as 500:1. We have the ability to discern maybe 1,000,000:1 given time between viewings for eye adaptation to take place for full range coverage that takes maybe 30 minutes to happen. There are of course faster reactions that happen as quickly as our iris can adjust to changing brightness levels but nonetheless we are not seeing the two CRs at the same time. No different than a projector with an iris reacting to a dark image and adjusting light output to allow for more convincing perception of blacks.

Perception of CR plays a far bigger part than most people give it credit for.

Also don’t forget just how little ambient light or reflected projector light is needed as the CR numbers get higher to negate it all. IMO comparing a 40,000:1 spec to a 10,000:1 spec is purely academic when it moves into the real world.

“ The retina of human eye has a static contrast ratio of around 100:1 (about 6.5 f-stops). As soon as the eye moves, it re-adjusts its exposure, both chemically and geometrically, by adjusting the iris (which regulates the size of the pupil ). Initial dark adaptation takes place in approximately four seconds of profound, uninterrupted darkness; full adaptation, through adjustments in retinal chemistry, is mostly complete in thirty minutes. Hence, a dynamic contrast ratio of about 1,000,000:1 (about 20 f-stops) is possible. The process is nonlinear and multifaceted, so an interruption by light starts the adaptation process over again. Full adaptation is dependent on good blood flow (thus dark adaptation may be hampered by poor circulation, and vasoconstrictors like tobacco).”

Source: https://phys.libretexts.org/Bookshel..._The_Human_Eye

Here is a very old thread on the topic. There are 100s of other thread talking about the same things.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...ast-ratio.html
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post #65 of 195 Old 05-16-2020, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post
IMO comparing a 40,000:1 spec to a 10,000:1 spec is purely academic when it moves into the real world.
That's not true at all. I've seen a projector which does ~10k:1, the Sony VPL-VW60. Compared to my CRT projector the image is no where close in mildly dark scenes even, and my CRT is rated at a conservative 20,000:1. But you can get with some tricks over 500,000:1 with a CRT. This doesn't even come close to an OLED which does over 1 million:1. So maybe with over 20,000:1 you can begin to say contrast isn't a big deal. But it doesn't mean there isn't slightly perceptible diminishing returns once you go over a certain amount either, which isn't worth it if color, clarity, sharpness, etc are affected.
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post #66 of 195 Old 05-16-2020, 08:59 AM
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^I don’t smoke and never have so this should help me.

Didn’t mention anything about alcohol though.

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post #67 of 195 Old 05-16-2020, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
That's not true at all. I've seen a projector which does ~10k:1, the Sony VPL-VW60. Compared to my CRT projector the image is no where close in mildly dark scenes even, and my CRT is rated at a conservative 20,000:1. But you can get with some tricks over 500,000:1 with a CRT. This doesn't even come close to an OLED which does over 1 million:1. So maybe with over 20,000:1 you can begin to say contrast isn't a big deal. But it doesn't mean there isn't slightly perceptible diminishing returns once you go over a certain amount either, which isn't worth it if color, clarity, sharpness, etc are affected.
Diminishing returns is up to the individual and cover just about everything we buy not only projectors. I usually have a limit that’s probably lower than someone of similar financial income simply because I’m a tight arse but for others their pleasure is knowing they are getting the very best money can buy.

Each their own

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Last edited by Luminated67; 05-16-2020 at 09:15 AM.
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post #68 of 195 Old 05-16-2020, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
Odd that JVC would take a backward step rather than improve unless this was done or a side effect of resolving another issues?

I must concur than after seeing the x5900 and shortly afterward comparing the same scenes on my own setup the Epson did produce a crisper image and in isolation the blacks didn’t look dramatically different, no doubt the JVC was better in this aspect but didn’t look night and day different and certainly not what the figures would suggest.

Before anyone asks yes the x5900 was calibrated.

P.S. Just based on my own experience I would class moving from a 9400 to x5900 as a sideways step rather than an improvement, what you gain in some ways you lose out in others. You really need to move to the N-series to get the full benefits but this comes at a price, there’s no free ride.
If you can tell a difference, on two different setups, that were not side by side, then you would be shocked seeing how much actual difference there is, if you did see them side by side.
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post #69 of 195 Old 05-16-2020, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Good to hear, Paul. And I know you've owned, tested, or played with many high-end brand new projectors.

My guess for me and perhaps some others who are rekindling that high-end DLP spirit, it might be that these DLPs have come down in price to a more mortal level. People can now get an incredible!!! image with quality hardware from a projector that once cost over $20K, $30K, or even over $40K when new.

As far as contrast, some of them will get you around c. 10,000:1 native and around 30,000 dynamic. But you know what, those numbers really don't do their images justice. What you see onscreen with these beauties is really compelling!
What 3-chip DLP can do 10,000:1 native?
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post #70 of 195 Old 05-16-2020, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
That's not true at all. I've seen a projector which does ~10k:1, the Sony VPL-VW60. Compared to my CRT projector the image is no where close in mildly dark scenes even, and my CRT is rated at a conservative 20,000:1. But you can get with some tricks over 500,000:1 with a CRT. This doesn't even come close to an OLED which does over 1 million:1. So maybe with over 20,000:1 you can begin to say contrast isn't a big deal. But it doesn't mean there isn't slightly perceptible diminishing returns once you go over a certain amount either, which isn't worth it if color, clarity, sharpness, etc are affected.
When I typed that I intended to compare 40’000 to 100,000 and omitted a “0”.

When I reread it and saw it I stopped and thought about it I almost changed it.

My thought was just a smidgen of reflected light will cause a 40’000 to go to 10,000 also maybe the light of one candle in the room. So I left it unedited.

I agree with you in a absolutely perfect room we could likely notice a difference and the difference might be in part CR related.

With human vision and these kinds of extreme CR numbers the room better be very good at controlling light and reflections or just about any other kind of change will misguide our eyes that are really poor light meters into thinking we are seeing better CR when what we may well be seeing is better perception of CR.

Comparing a CRT CR with a digital CR where the baseline lumens are so far apart is IMO asking a lot of our eyes. Our eyes can adjust 3 or 4 f-stops and we don’t even notice keep in mind each f-stop doubles the light 1, 2, 4, 8, 16 etc. Our eyes function over a range of about 22 f-stops.

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post #71 of 195 Old 05-16-2020, 09:21 AM
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If you can tell a difference, on two different setups, that were not side by side, then you would be shocked seeing how much actual difference there is, if you did see them side by side.
If you check else where I did mention this. The point I was making then was if you never seen the better blacks of the JVC side by side you will never miss it, but equally noticing the blacks being better what about the image sharpness, my Epson throws a crisper image than the x5900 so in a side by side comparison I might be horrified by this as equally as the black level difference. As I said there’s pluses and minuses between each which is why I reckon it’s a sideways step rather than an outright step up and at the time I bought my Epson the x5900 was £1.5K dearer so frankly the smart money was with the Epson and imo still is.

The N-series is a different matter because it’s better in every way but likewise the price difference is even greater.
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post #72 of 195 Old 05-16-2020, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by dovercat View Post
Most blu-rays and DVDs I own are of 10+ year old films. And over my life I have been to far more film print cinema shows than DCI.

I think most consumers being sold home cinema projectors are looking to emulate the cinema experience. That was film print cinema or today DCI cinema. Film print had higher contrast so is a higher minimum to expect manufacturers claiming to provide the cinema experience at home to meet.
Few cinemas at least near where I live are HDR.
That would completely blow. This is the whole reason, I seldom go to a commercial movie theater, the experience is disappointing and that is ignoring any issues with other patrons. The local cinema's environment ruins the image on screen. Even if the environment was better, the image still could not compete with what I see and hear at home. The only cinema that is not a disappointment compared to my home cinema is a Dolby Cinema and those are few and far between. The Dolby Cinema actually has better contrast, but I have a much better environment. So what you see at a Dolby Cinema is close to what I see in my home.
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post #73 of 195 Old 05-16-2020, 10:23 AM
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The N-series is a different matter because it’s better in every way but likewise the price difference is even greater.
I remember I had an Epson and was pleasantly surprised by how good it was especially for the price. I remember reading all this stuff about eshift this/JVC blacks that and bought my first expecting to be blown away in comparison to the Epson, based on how the JVC was presented in reviews, online, posts and such, but I wasn't. The Fujinon lens is very, very good. Anyway, I found with the Epson UBs, you get more than what you pay for, if you ask me.
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That would completely blow. This is the whole reason, I seldom go to a commercial movie theater, the experience is disappointing and that is ignoring any issues with other patrons. The local cinema's environment ruins the image on screen. Even if the environment was better, the image still could not compete with what I see and hear at home. The only cinema that is not a disappointment compared to my home cinema is a Dolby Cinema and those are few and far between. The Dolby Cinema actually has better contrast, but I have a much better environment. So what you see at a Dolby Cinema is close to what I see in my home.
The Dolby Cinema we went to in Dallas was good. I went to one in Atlanta that was ok, but the audio was turned up way to loud. I went to one down here and it was so bad that I haven't been back. I believe that was two years ago.

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Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
If you check else where I did mention this. The point I was making then was if you never seen the better blacks of the JVC side by side you will never miss it, but equally noticing the blacks being better what about the image sharpness, my Epson throws a crisper image than the x5900 so in a side by side comparison I might be horrified by this as equally as the black level difference. As I said there’s pluses and minuses between each which is why I reckon it’s a sideways step rather than an outright step up and at the time I bought my Epson the x5900 was £1.5K dearer so frankly the smart money was with the Epson and imo still is.

The N-series is a different matter because it’s better in every way but likewise the price difference is even greater.
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
What 3-chip DLP can do 10,000:1 native?
This was in the context of those without a dynamic iris. What comes to mind is the likes of those with the tightened light paths, Sim2, this one for example:


https://www.trustedreviews.com/revie...-dlp-projector
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Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
The Dolby Cinema we went to in Dallas was good. I went to one in Atlanta that was ok, but the audio was turned up way to loud. I went to one down here and it was so bad that I haven't been back. I believe that was two years ago.
Yes, I guess I should preface my comment on being a good Dolby Atmos cinema. Yes, the Dallas Dolby Cinema was good.
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On the dynamic side, I didn't mean to suggest 30K:1 is the limit. I believe the Mico 150 can do 100,000:1 dynamic contrast.
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
This was in the context of those without a dynamic iris. What comes to mind is the likes of those with the tightened light paths, Sim2, this one for example:


https://www.trustedreviews.com/revie...-dlp-projector
It has a manual iris, like the JVC's. So that 10,000:1 was more for bragging rights, just like the 160,000:1 on a JVC RS640. The Sim2 has very little light output, with iris closed down, so almost no one used it that way, just like the 640. I guess if you had a 92" 2.8 gain HP screen you could close down the iris on the Sim2.
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
That would completely blow. This is the whole reason, I seldom go to a commercial movie theater, the experience is disappointing and that is ignoring any issues with other patrons. The local cinema's environment ruins the image on screen. Even if the environment was better, the image still could not compete with what I see and hear at home. The only cinema that is not a disappointment compared to my home cinema is a Dolby Cinema and those are few and far between. The Dolby Cinema actually has better contrast, but I have a much better environment. So what you see at a Dolby Cinema is close to what I see in my home.
Many with 85” flat panels would think it really blows to have to sit in a pitch-black environment to watch a movie with respectable PQ also.

Human physiology hasn’t changed in the last 75 years the only thing that has changed for some of us is our visual expectations. I might add a very small percentage of us actually.

A film-like experience at home or in a theater means different things to different people.

There is generations coming along that wont have a clue what film-like even means and are expecting front projection to work exactly like and in the same environment as their beloved flat panels that are their gold standard.

For those reasons I don’t see it as walking is good because I never rode in a car because everyone that goes to a movie today has surely seen a 4k flat panel display. I would venture that everyone of us has a PQ better or as good as the local cinema but then again none of us can seat 400 people comfortably and none of us has 40’ high screens.

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Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post
Many with 85” flat panels would think it really blows to have to sit in a pitch-black environment to watch a movie with respectable PQ also.

Human physiology hasn’t changed in the last 75 years the only thing that has changed for some of us is our visual expectations. I might add a very small percentage of us actually.

A film-like experience at home or in a theater means different things to different people.

There is generations coming along that wont have a clue what film-like even means and are expecting front projection to work exactly like and in the same environment as their beloved flat panels that are their gold standard.

For those reasons I don’t see it as walking is good because I never rode in a car because everyone that goes to a movie today has surely seen a 4k flat panel display. I would venture that everyone of us has a PQ better or as good as the local cinema but then again none of us can seat 400 people comfortably and none of us has 40’ high screens.
What does that have to do with my argument? The discussion was regarding the image quality in a commercial theater. You are sitting in the dark with front projection, whether at home or in a movie theater.

You really think that? It would mean that commercial movie theaters would have to go away for the younger generation to not know about sitting in the dark, watching a projected movie. Even if all theaters go to modular flat screens like Samsung The Wall, you are still going to be sitting in a darkened theater. Hard to be immersed in a movie if you are sitting in a brightly lit room with 100 other people.
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LOL you’d be a heck of a lot healthier that’s for sure.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
What 3-chip DLP can do 10,000:1 native?
The Christie dual 350+watt lamp 3-chip DLP projectors with their lens apertures closed down have the option of doing 10,000:1 native.
Possibly other manufacturers dual high watt lamp 3-chip DLPs with lens irises that can be manually closed down.
But I think they are primarily intended to be used as light cannons to light up large screens rather than used on smaller screens with their irises closed down for maximum contrast. So their ability to do high contrast is more I think for marketing than expected use.

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post #84 of 195 Old 05-16-2020, 02:04 PM
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About Dynamic Contrast...

One thing I've noticed (or at least I think I've noticed) is that the HDR Optimizer on the UB420 seems to allow Dynamic Black (DB)to work more efficiently on my UHD50. DB will not engage if any pixel reaches maximum value. However, I suspect that the HDR Optimizer is tone mapping peak values to just less than peak and therefore DB will engage, where previously it would not. This may also allow DI engagement on projectors so fitted, when previously the DI would remain open.
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post #85 of 195 Old 05-16-2020, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
What 3-chip DLP can do 10,000:1 native?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
This was in the context of those without a dynamic iris. What comes to mind is the likes of those with the tightened light paths, Sim2, this one for example:


https://www.trustedreviews.com/revie...-dlp-projector
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
It has a manual iris, like the JVC's. So that 10,000:1 was more for bragging rights, just like the 160,000:1 on a JVC RS640. The Sim2 has very little light output, with iris closed down, so almost no one used it that way, just like the 640. I guess if you had a 92" 2.8 gain HP screen you could close down the iris on the Sim2.
Mike, I'm not sure where you're taking me here because that wasn't the question you asked me. But you got it... from now on I'll list for you only those native contrast figures that most people would use in a way that would be most practical to them.
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post #86 of 195 Old 05-16-2020, 02:38 PM
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What does that have to do with my argument? The discussion was regarding the image quality in a commercial theater. You are sitting in the dark with front projection, whether at home or in a movie theater.

You really think that? It would mean that commercial movie theaters would have to go away for the younger generation to not know about sitting in the dark, watching a projected movie. Even if all theaters go to modular flat screens like Samsung The Wall, you are still going to be sitting in a darkened theater. Hard to be immersed in a movie if you are sitting in a brightly lit room with 100 other people.
Movie theaters have undergone many significant changes in just my lifetime. As a kid the Academy movie palaces were still showing first run movies many had been converted screen-wise to scope. These places even in smaller towns. Our little Warner Theater holds 2250. That made way to large scope theaters built in the suburbs that turned into Cineplex with smaller multi theater setups ending up moving to the malls. There was always some continuity to the experience, popcorn and turning the lights down. Then came VHS and HBO and the secondary market with media and more ways to get movies changed to light emitting displays.

I think all this changed the film-like experience. Now we have streaming and movies being delivered for consumption many different ways and it is changing the nature of what is film-like IMO. Last year Amazon made an IMAX movie and it was short cycled from IMAX theaters to my media room as streaming media in two weeks. 99.9% of the people that will watch that movie wont have a film-like experience or an IMAX experience.

I know a lot of young people and hardly any of them go to theaters but are huge streaming consumers. I don’t know if they would enjoy movies on a huge wall screen with the lights on full but I’m willing to bet they would want them much higher than FP specs.

Like @dovercat I have a lot of 10 plus year old BD and DVD media still that was originally shown in theaters 30-50 years ago. I still enjoy it as close to film-like as I can get at home and CR is about as good as a real theater and that’s not a problem it is a reasonable goal to shoot for.
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post #87 of 195 Old 05-16-2020, 03:13 PM
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When the film contrast question was hashed out years ago, I believe it was found that good film could do around 10k to 1 on/off cr. The point that Javs made that I guess some didn't get is that it doesn't matter what the film on/off cr was after it was processed for DVD or BR. What matters then is what the person doing the transfer does with it. Whether your film is 5 years or 50 years old, it would have had to be transfered to BR in the last 14 years.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Mike, I'm not sure where you're taking me here because that wasn't the question you asked me. But you got it... from now on I'll list for you only those native contrast figures that most people would use in a way that would be most practical to them.
I don't remember the Sim getting that high of a on/off cr in actual use. I didn't see where that reviewer took measurements, but I didn't look that closely.

I recall my old Marantz could get 4500 to 1. I think Jason Turk measured that number, but in lowest output mode. Darinp modified a DLP to get 7k to 1, but the light output was really small.

If DLP could punch the native up to 20k to 1, then I think a lot of people would be happy. I doubt it will ever happen, but one can hope.

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post #88 of 195 Old 05-16-2020, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
When the film contrast question was hashed out years ago, I believe it was found that good film could do around 10k to 1 on/off cr. The point that Javs made that I guess some didn't get is that it doesn't matter what the film on/off cr was after it was processed for DVD or BR. What matters then is what the person doing the transfer does with it. Whether your film is 5 years or 50 years old, it would have had to be transfered to BR in the last 14 years.





I don't remember the Sim getting that high of a on/off cr in actual use. I didn't see where that reviewer took measurements, but I didn't look that closely.

I recall my old Marantz could get 4500 to 1. I think Jason Turk measured that number, but in lowest output mode. Darinp modified a DLP to get 7k to 1, but the light output was really small.

If DLP could punch the native up to 20k to 1, then I think a lot of people would be happy. I doubt it will ever happen, but one can hope.
The 10k:1 number is manufacturer spec, not measured. If DLP could do native 4K and 20k:1, at JVC
/Sony price points, I would own one.
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post #89 of 195 Old 05-16-2020, 06:27 PM
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Interesting takes. It's been hashed out (contrast) for as long as I've been on AVS
INMO, 2012 was the high point for DLP. Sharp's XV-Z30000 had a contrast of 50000:1 (see Art's review).
https://www.projectorreviews.com/sha...jector-review/
It's only 1080p, but with older eyes and a 17 foot throw to a HP 2.8 screen Add in an iscan and a Darbee and it's been enough to help me resist the 4K sirens...
It's been repeated over and over, but still rings true: Everything is a trade off. To me, the DLP sharpness and motion handling are worth the contrast deficiencies, if the contrast reaches a certain threshold. My $.02
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post #90 of 195 Old 05-16-2020, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by humbland View Post
Interesting takes. It's been hashed out (contrast) for as long as I've been on AVS
INMO, 2012 was the high point for DLP. Sharp's XV-Z30000 had a contrast of 50000:1 (see Art's review).
https://www.projectorreviews.com/sha...jector-review/
It's only 1080p, but with older eyes and a 17 foot throw to a HP 2.8 screen Add in an iscan and a Darbee and it's been enough to help me resist the 4K sirens...
It's been repeated over and over, but still rings true: Everything is a trade off. To me, the DLP sharpness and motion handling are worth the contrast deficiencies, if the contrast reaches a certain threshold. My $.02
Thats claimed contrast, can you point me to which page in Arts review he actually measured it?

I dont believe that number at all.

S&V Measured it.

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...-labs-measures

1700: Native, 10k dyamic... sounds more like it.

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