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post #1 of 195 Old 05-13-2020, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Question about Contrast ratio

Hi all,

This is possibly a very dumb question but I am currently researching an upgrade to my projector.

I am looking at the JVC NX5 and the Epson TW9400 and I notice on the spec sheets the JVC is listed as having a 40000:1 Native contrast ratio and 400,000:1 Dynamic ratio. The Epson on the other hand is listed as 1200000:1.

I then read on the forums and it seems unanimous that the JVC has better contrast.

Can anyone explain to me how that is or why the forums and reviewers seem to contradict what is claimed for each projector?
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post #2 of 195 Old 05-13-2020, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Lawrage View Post
Hi all,

This is possibly a very dumb question but I am currently researching an upgrade to my projector.

I am looking at the JVC NX5 and the Epson TW9400 and I notice on the spec sheets the JVC is listed as having a 40000:1 Native contrast ratio and 400,000:1 Dynamic ratio. The Epson on the other hand is listed as 1200000:1.

I then read on the forums and it seems unanimous that the JVC has better contrast.

Can anyone explain to me how that is or why the forums and reviewers seem to contradict what is claimed for each projector?
Because marketing.

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post #3 of 195 Old 05-13-2020, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Lawrage View Post
Hi all,



This is possibly a very dumb question but I am currently researching an upgrade to my projector.



I am looking at the JVC NX5 and the Epson TW9400 and I notice on the spec sheets the JVC is listed as having a 40000:1 Native contrast ratio and 400,000:1 Dynamic ratio. The Epson on the other hand is listed as 1200000:1.



I then read on the forums and it seems unanimous that the JVC has better contrast.



Can anyone explain to me how that is or why the forums and reviewers seem to contradict what is claimed for each projector?
Epson measures by magic eight ball.. JVC actually measures using full on/off. Trust professional reviews and user reviews. The JVC has better contrast and black levels. Not a dumb question at all.

ANSI contrast is hard to manipulate and can be found in many professional reviews. JVC will always measure much better than Epson.


https://www.projectorcentral.com/pro...rast-ratio.htm


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Last edited by skylarlove1999; 05-13-2020 at 06:42 PM.
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post #4 of 195 Old 05-13-2020, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by skylarlove1999 View Post
Epson measures one way. JVC another way. Trust professional reviews and user reviews. The JVC has better contrast and black levels. Not a dumb question at all.

Epson uses full On/Off Contrast which is easily manipulated. JVC uses ANSI contrast which is closer to how the eye interprets contrast and is hard to manipulate.


https://www.projectorcentral.com/pro...rast-ratio.htm


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Thanks for that, explains it very well.
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post #5 of 195 Old 05-13-2020, 05:57 PM
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Thanks for that, explains it very well.
Very welcome

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post #6 of 195 Old 05-13-2020, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by skylarlove1999 View Post
Epson measures one way. JVC another way. Trust professional reviews and user reviews. The JVC has better contrast and black levels. Not a dumb question at all.

Epson uses full On/Off Contrast which is easily manipulated. JVC uses ANSI contrast which is closer to how the eye interprets contrast and is hard to manipulate.


https://www.projectorcentral.com/pro...rast-ratio.htm


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This is not really correct at all.

ANSI is a completely different measurement system and you wont find that on the box for just about any manufacturer except old DLP machines.

JVC uses On/Off also, but they actually do measure it.

Epson seems to throw a paper towel up in the air to see where it lands, then pulls a number out of thin freaking air and puts it on the box.

Epsons have an On/Off of maybe 6k:1, and maybe 12k:1 with the dynamic iris working.

The worst JVC will have about 12k:1 on off with a wide open iris and getting close to maybe 100k:1 dynamic.

The best JVC will have 40k on off with a wide open iris and a true 500k-1,000,000:1 dynamic.

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post #7 of 195 Old 05-13-2020, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
This is not really correct at all.

ANSI is a completely different measurement system and you wont find that on the box for just about any manufacturer except old DLP machines.

JVC uses On/Off also, but they actually do measure it.

Epson seems to throw a paper towel up in the air to see where it lands, then pulls a number out of thin freaking air and puts it on the box.

Epsons have an On/Off of maybe 6k:1, and maybe 12k:1 with the dynamic iris working.

The worst JVC will have about 12k:1 on off with a wide open iris and getting close to maybe 100k:1 dynamic.

The best JVC will have 40k on off with a wide open iris and a true 500k-1,000,000:1 dynamic.
My bad. I guess not all JVC reps are as well informed as one would hope. That is where my misinformation came from. My apologies. Thanks for taking the time to set the record straight. Do you happen to know the contrast ratio for the JVC NX7? Thanks in advance.

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post #8 of 195 Old 05-13-2020, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by skylarlove1999 View Post
My bad. I guess not all JVC reps are as well informed as one would hope. That is where my misinformation came from. My apologies. Thanks for taking the time to set the record straight. Do you happen to know the contrast ratio for the JVC NX7? Thanks in advance.

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Yeah 20-30k on off wide open iris, to about 300-400k dynamic. If you close down the iris manually you can get up to 80k:1.

Dynamic contrast is always the highest if your starting point is wide open iris.

Mileage may vary, setups, throw distances, sample quality etc...

My eshift JVC X9500 (RS620) is throwing 43k:1 wide open, and 430k:1 dynamic. If you close down the iris manually you can get up to 150k:1.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
This is not really correct at all.

ANSI is a completely different measurement system and you wont find that on the box for just about any manufacturer except old DLP machines.

JVC uses On/Off also, but they actually do measure it.

Epson seems to throw a paper towel up in the air to see where it lands, then pulls a number out of thin freaking air and puts it on the box.

Epsons have an On/Off of maybe 6k:1, and maybe 12k:1 with the dynamic iris working.

The worst JVC will have about 12k:1 on off with a wide open iris and getting close to maybe 100k:1 dynamic.

The best JVC will have 40k on off with a wide open iris and a true 500k-1,000,000:1 dynamic.
You would either have a field day or a coronary in the old high end DLP thread.
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post #10 of 195 Old 05-13-2020, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Yeah 20-30k on off wide open iris, to about 300-400k dynamic. If you close down the iris manually you can get up to 80k:1.

Dynamic contrast is always the highest if your starting point is wide open iris.

Mileage may vary, setups, throw distances, sample quality etc...

My eshift JVC X9500 (RS620) is throwing 43k:1 wide open, and 430k:1 dynamic. If you close down the iris manually you can get up to 150k:1.
Thanks kind sir. I appreciate all the info. Guess you will be waiting on JVC 4K for a while with the contrast numbers you are getting.

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post #11 of 195 Old 05-13-2020, 07:51 PM
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Thanks kind sir. I appreciate all the info. Guess you will be waiting on JVC 4K for a while with the contrast numbers you are getting.

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I really like what I have now. I wouldn't say no to a 4K model though... I am just waiting it out a bit for my new house to be built, which starts in the next few months, and then time to build a new theatre, so in 2021 it sounds like I will be ready to buy a new projector.
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post #12 of 195 Old 05-13-2020, 08:47 PM
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Compare numbers from the same source. Kris Deering's reviews over at Sound and Vision are rock solid.

Every time I soften on PJC, they go and write an article like that.


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You would either have a field day or a coronary in the old high end DLP thread.
I think Darinp took care of business like a big game hunter.

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post #13 of 195 Old 05-14-2020, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
This is not really correct at all.

ANSI is a completely different measurement system and you wont find that on the box for just about any manufacturer except old DLP machines.

JVC uses On/Off also, but they actually do measure it.

Epson seems to throw a paper towel up in the air to see where it lands, then pulls a number out of thin freaking air and puts it on the box.

Epsons have an On/Off of maybe 6k:1, and maybe 12k:1 with the dynamic iris working.

The worst JVC will have about 12k:1 on off with a wide open iris and getting close to maybe 100k:1 dynamic.

The best JVC will have 40k on off with a wide open iris and a true 500k-1,000,000:1 dynamic.
I can’t recall who told me this figure but the dynamic contrast of the Epson was closer to 80000:1, I have to say that when it does kick in my screen goes as black as a coal pit.

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Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
I can’t recall who told me this figure but the dynamic contrast of the Epson was closer to 80000:1, I have to say that when it does kick in my screen goes as black as a coal pit.
In a good room, with a lamp based projector that black only lasts until your eyes adjust, because the the projector is still projecting light. Even when I had an RS640, it only lasted a few brief seconds.
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post #15 of 195 Old 05-14-2020, 02:05 PM
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I can’t recall who told me this figure but the dynamic contrast of the Epson was closer to 80000:1, I have to say that when it does kick in my screen goes as black as a coal pit.
Are you talking about the LS10000?



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Are you talking about the LS10000?



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Nope the Epson 9400 (6050), can’t recall who said it but it definitely about the 9400.
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post #17 of 195 Old 05-14-2020, 03:37 PM
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Nope the Epson 9400 (6050), can’t recall who said it but it definitely about the 9400.
I know of a user who has just gone from an NX9 to the Epson 9400 and he is VERY pleasently surprised just how good the Epson is !
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I know of a user who has just gone from an NX9 to the Epson 9400 and he is VERY pleasently surprised just how good the Epson is !

In 2020, I doubt any projector north of 3 grand would be bad

I dont get why you would make that switch though unless its for money reasons.

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post #19 of 195 Old 05-14-2020, 04:27 PM
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In 2020, I doubt any projector north of 3 grand would be bad

I dont get why you would make that switch though unless its for money reasons.
His NX9 was sent to JVC for repair . So in the meantime he has an Epson . Not sure if his dealer gave it to him as a lender or he got it at cost but he didn't give up his JVC NX9 for an Epson.

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post #20 of 195 Old 05-14-2020, 06:53 PM
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I know of a user who has just gone from an NX9 to the Epson 9400 and he is VERY pleasently surprised just how good the Epson is !
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In 2020, I doubt any projector north of 3 grand would be bad
Hi, guys. ...miss your posts and hope you're all well.

I agree with you both. I mean all around, they really have no deficiencies and put out very compelling pictures for the money. The lenses are really good too. For a brand new projector, these Epsons are probably the best bang for the buck.
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post #21 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 12:43 AM
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In 2020, I doubt any projector north of 3 grand would be bad

I dont get why you would make that switch though unless its for money reasons.
He didnt give up his NX9, still trying to resolve ongoing issues with it.

He purchased the 9400 , and is very very surprised just how good the image from the 9400 is.... Both in sharpness and in contrast....... I think he is now considering pairing a Lumagen with the 9400 and flogging off the NX9 with monies left over..
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these Epsons are probably the best bang for the buck.
Yep, I know of another Aussie who offloaded his troublesome N7 and got the Epson 9400.......he couldnt be happier.

He also has an older X9900/RS640 and says the 9400 cant obviously match ithe JVC contrast wise ( but not night and day differtence) ...BUT the Epson provides a much much sharper image.
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He also has an older X9900/RS640 and says the 9400 cant obviously match ithe JVC contrast wise ( but not night and day differtence) ...BUT the Epson provides a much much sharper image.
That's not hard since eShift 5 is CRAP

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That's not hard since eShift 5 is CRAP

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Odd that JVC would take a backward step rather than improve unless this was done or a side effect of resolving another issues?

I must concur than after seeing the x5900 and shortly afterward comparing the same scenes on my own setup the Epson did produce a crisper image and in isolation the blacks didn’t look dramatically different, no doubt the JVC was better in this aspect but didn’t look night and day different and certainly not what the figures would suggest.

Before anyone asks yes the x5900 was calibrated.

P.S. Just based on my own experience I would class moving from a 9400 to x5900 as a sideways step rather than an improvement, what you gain in some ways you lose out in others. You really need to move to the N-series to get the full benefits but this comes at a price, there’s no free ride.
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post #25 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 06:50 AM
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Yep, I know of another Aussie who offloaded his troublesome N7 and got the Epson 9400.......he couldnt be happier.

He also has an older X9900/RS640 and says the 9400 cant obviously match ithe JVC contrast wise ( but not night and day differtence) ...BUT the Epson provides a much much sharper image.
I sold my NX7, but I went way back....to a high-end DLP. It also doesn't have the blacks of the NX7 but over all blacks were convincing enough and I gained other attributes to the image that outweighed that, that I liked. They are just two imaging philosophies. JVC uses polarized light; DLP uses DMDs. I would need a JVC with a lot of horsepower, probably like a bright laser, for it to look the way I like the images to look.
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Odd that JVC would take a backward step rather than improve unless this was done or a side effect of resolving another issues?

There was a step backward in contrast with the RS2000/NX7, RS3000/NX9 compared to the last series' similarly tiered models.

I remember Javs had both the X9900 and the X9500 and did an A/B with both e-shifts and he found more clarity with the e-shift version 4, but I believe the lens on his X9500 was also a better sample so I don't know if that impacted his results.

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There was a step backward in contrast with the RS2000/NX7, RS3000/NX9 compared to the last series' similarly tiered models. I remember Javs had both the X9900 and the X9500 and did an A/B deep dive with both e-shifts and found more clarity with the e-shift version 4.
I really don't get the whole 4k craze. Most 4k displays other than resolution have a worse picture than 1080p for the same price back in the day.

The only advantage I see with a 4k is now each pixel allows a dithering effect of 4 pixels to every one.

There's an old early 80s computer called the NEC PC-98 which only had 16 color but has a 640x400 resolution. It took advantage of converting 192 - 224p images and essentially line doubling, but adding an enhanced scanline between, essentially making it appear like a 256 color image in some instances. But the effect still isn't as good as true 256 color.

What I think people are really seeing is the effect of expanded color. Because most people who own a 4k TV aren't close enough to tell the difference between 4k and 1k.

Therefore if they saw a high end 1080p display which was super sharp and had very accurate colors, they would think the display was really 4k.

Had they just increased color depth and color space of 1080p, what people like about 4k would've got the same results or better.

But it would've been a hard sell for: "increased color capabilities beyond last generation!"

Ultra color just doesn't have the nice same ring as "ultra high def!" Because before HD 709 from SD 601 increased both the color space and resolution.

No amount of special processing can fix 480p to 1080p. But the returns on 1080p to 4k are much less.

So unless you're at desktop editing distances, a more color capable display will look better.

If you compare a last gen Pioneer Kuro or Panasonic plasma with the same size 65" OLED, the plasma will trounce the OLED with 1080p REC 709 material.

I don't know what it is, but OLED just have this movie poster quality to them, and look lifeless despite their contrast.

But maybe the above is just all me?

I'll post some pics for you to decide which are both only 16 color.

PC-98 16 color.


EGA 16 color.


PS... You're not missing much with the Possessioner game. Although the intro looks like an awesome Bladerunner esq game, it's really a lame point and click hentai.
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post #28 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 09:39 AM
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I really don't get the whole 4k craze. Most 4k displays other than resolution have a worse picture than 1080p for the same price back in the day.
Thanks for your post. Yeah, and there are people who will not upgrade their high-end 1080 projector, or in my case went to a high-end 1080 projector from a 4K one. And as far as those who really prioritize contrast, there are people who also will not upgrade their earlier generation UHD-capable JVCs to the new native 4K JVCs because the contrast is not as high as on their 1080 machines.

The projectors in this price range that do 8.8 Mill pixel 4K are Sony and JVC... Before the native JVC models came out, we were told that from normal seating distance, a person really could not tell the difference between the 1080 shifters and a Sony native 4K display; now whether that discussion was due to the Sony lenses, the JVC lenses, whatever....I was left with the impression of, "Wow, the 1080P shifters look close enough."

Having had 8.8 Mill pixel simultaneous, 8.3 Mill Pix actuated, and 1080p displays, I would say the native and actuated displays, on my screen size of 133 16x9 or 125 2.35:1 inches diag., from 8 feet away, I can see the higher pixel density. It provides a more celluloid look.
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post #29 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 09:57 AM
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Having had 8.8 Mill pixel simultaneous, 8.3 Mill Pix actuated, and 1080p displays, I would say the native and actuated displays, on my screen size of 133 16x9 or 125 2.35:1 inches diag., from 8 feet away, I can see the higher pixel density. It provides a more celluloid look.
Maybe it's just me, but when I looked at a Sony VPL-675es it had the same artificial look similar to an OLED. Besides having punchy colors and high resolution, it just wasn't doing it for me. It looked nothing like a DPI 4k DLP I saw of Harry Potter at IMAX. Even high end consumer DLP 1080p look closer.

I'd still prefer a CRT projector over a LCOS or OLED. If it weren't for the fact they're so dim and you're constantly having to touch them up on a weekly basis. That got old real quick.

I don't get why TI doesn't get their act together and make a DLP at close to the contrast of LCOS. That would totally kill all the competition.

Maybe my problem is the sample and hold of LCOS and OLED? Whereas DLP has phenomenal motion.
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post #30 of 195 Old 05-15-2020, 11:02 AM
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Had they just increased color depth and color space of 1080p, what people like about 4k would've got the same results or better.

But it would've been a hard sell for: "increased color capabilities beyond last generation!"

Ultra color just doesn't have the nice same ring as "ultra high def!" Because before HD 709 from SD 601 increased both the color space and resolution.
They tried to do that with Blu-ray mastered in 4K which boasted x.v.Color expanded color gamut and Deep Color 12-bit per color. The discs would play with the expanded color gamut on compatible blu-ray players and displays, and were backwards compatible playing as normal blu-rays on non-compatible players and displays. They flopped in part because the discs often contained just the film with no extras unlike the standard blu-ray version.

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