Black levels on the last generation 1080 JVC's - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 34 Old 06-13-2020, 06:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Black levels on the last generation 1080 JVC's

Morning! I was part of a discussion in the under $3k forum about the 1080 JVC's and I had a question I figured would get more attention over here...
I have the JVC RS4910. For me, good blacks are the most important thing. Unless there is a glaring issue, I am most bothered by poor black levels. I would not be satisfied with anything worse than what I have now. I also like a dimmer picture overall. I think I am currently about 8ftL (at -15 iris) and am completely satisfied with that level of brightness(no HDR). I am always thinking about upgrading to the 57 or even the 67 for better blacks, even though I know its probably fairly subtle. I have never really considered going for the latest 1080 series, because of the big increase in brightness. I have always assumed, that with the same contrast as the previous series(60k for the lower end, and 130k+ for the higher models), the higher brightness will translate to higher black levels. That's just simple math, right? I think the only way to counteract that, is if the iris can close down more on the newer models, to bring the brightness down even further than you could on the older models. I don't believe this is the case. Am I correct in my assumptions? Thanks.
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post #2 of 34 Old 06-13-2020, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robbyc30 View Post
Morning! I was part of a discussion in the under $3k forum about the 1080 JVC's and I had a question I figured would get more attention over here...
I have the JVC RS4910. For me, good blacks are the most important thing. Unless there is a glaring issue, I am most bothered by poor black levels. I would not be satisfied with anything worse than what I have now. I also like a dimmer picture overall. I think I am currently about 8ftL (at -15 iris) and am completely satisfied with that level of brightness(no HDR). I am always thinking about upgrading to the 57 or even the 67 for better blacks, even though I know its probably fairly subtle. I have never really considered going for the latest 1080 series, because of the big increase in brightness. I have always assumed, that with the same contrast as the previous series(60k for the lower end, and 130k+ for the higher models), the higher brightness will translate to higher black levels. That's just simple math, right? I think the only way to counteract that, is if the iris can close down more on the newer models, to bring the brightness down even further than you could on the older models. I don't believe this is the case. Am I correct in my assumptions? Thanks.
I had an RS4910 and moved to an RS500. The RS500 blacks were noticeably a lot better and the RS500 was tons brighter at the same time. My guess is if you found an RS57 or RS67, which is the same as your RS4910 but the next models up in the same year, you'd would benefit from the increased contrast with no added light and get an even better black floor. The difference between the base model and the mid model is a big difference in the area of black performance in my opinion. Since none of these are made any longer and might be hard to find, I'd also expect far better black performance out of an RS500, RS520, RS540 vs your RS4910 - even though they can be brighter at their peak.

Are you not using the dynamic iris? That allows for the bright scenes to be brighter and but still give you that same awesome black floor you want.

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post #3 of 34 Old 06-13-2020, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
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So I am using the dynamic iris, but at -15, so it really only activates on fade to blacks, which are awesome. I have tried it up to -10 or -11, and its fine, but I don't need the extra brightness. I have heard people say that the blacks are better on the RSxxx, but with the higher brightness, I just don't see how, except for a lower iris setting. I have not been able to find anything that confirms, one way or the other, if there was a change to the lowest iris setting, or actual black level measurements. In your particular case, I can see going from the 4910 with 60k contrast, to the 500 with 130k contrast, the black levels would be better, even with the added brightness. But if you had the RS57 and upgraded, would there have been any change? They have maybe even gotten worse, because of the extra brightness. I would just hate to spend the money and be disappointed.
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post #4 of 34 Old 06-13-2020, 08:12 AM
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I had the same projector as well as the RS520. For me, I would not consider the move to a 57 or 67. If you truly care about contrast, the best move is the RS5x0 or Rs6x0 models. You gain so much and they are able to take advantage of all the new features today. Many are going for low prices on the used market. The previous models that you are considering are outdated and 4k movies are definitely an upgrade in picture quality.
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post #5 of 34 Old 06-13-2020, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robbyc30 View Post
So I am using the dynamic iris, but at -15, so it really only activates on fade to blacks, which are awesome. I have tried it up to -10 or -11, and its fine, but I don't need the extra brightness. I have heard people say that the blacks are better on the RSxxx, but with the higher brightness, I just don't see how, except for a lower iris setting. I have not been able to find anything that confirms, one way or the other, if there was a change to the lowest iris setting, or actual black level measurements. In your particular case, I can see going from the 4910 with 60k contrast, to the 500 with 130k contrast, the black levels would be better, even with the added brightness. But if you had the RS57 and upgraded, would there have been any change? They have maybe even gotten worse, because of the extra brightness. I would just hate to spend the money and be disappointed.
The RS5x0 models have dual irises to get to those lower contrast numbers. On low lamp at -15, my RS520 was around 250 lumens. On a 100in 1.0 gain screen, that's 8ftL, and my max on low lamp at 0 was around 1200 lumens. So, they allow you to get the brightness you need.
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post #6 of 34 Old 06-13-2020, 08:18 AM - Thread Starter
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I really appreciate you guys chiming in, but I really am trying to understand this, technically. If the 57 has basically the same contrast as the 500, and the 500 is significantly brighter, how can it have better blacks?
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post #7 of 34 Old 06-13-2020, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
The RS5x0 models have dual irises to get to those lower contrast numbers. On low lamp at -15, my RS520 was around 250 lumens. On a 100in 1.0 gain screen, that's 8ftL, and my max on low lamp at 0 was around 1200 lumens. So, they allow you to get the brightness you need.



Well that might be telling. Im pretty sure Im getting more than 250 lumens at -15. So, maybe the iris does close more.
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post #8 of 34 Old 06-13-2020, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robbyc30 View Post
I really appreciate you guys chiming in, but I really am trying to understand this, technically. If the 57 has basically the same contrast as the 500, and the 500 is significantly brighter, how can it have better blacks?
I think the dynamic iris is stronger on the RS5x0 vs the RS57. The dynamic contrast numbers aren't extremely accurate. I think the black floor is about the same on the two with the newer models actually having the higher dynamic contrast - regardless of what the marketing numbers show. Hope that helps.

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post #9 of 34 Old 06-13-2020, 09:20 AM
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I don’t think anyone is answering his question lol. He doesn’t care about brightness. So he’s wondering on his already dim image if it’s an upgrade to go to a newer proj because they just seem to be brighter, which he doesn’t want.

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post #10 of 34 Old 06-13-2020, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robbyc30 View Post
Morning! I was part of a discussion in the under $3k forum about the 1080 JVC's and I had a question I figured would get more attention over here...
I have the JVC RS4910. For me, good blacks are the most important thing. Unless there is a glaring issue, I am most bothered by poor black levels. I would not be satisfied with anything worse than what I have now. I also like a dimmer picture overall. I think I am currently about 8ftL (at -15 iris) and am completely satisfied with that level of brightness(no HDR). I am always thinking about upgrading to the 57 or even the 67 for better blacks, even though I know its probably fairly subtle. I have never really considered going for the latest 1080 series, because of the big increase in brightness. I have always assumed, that with the same contrast as the previous series(60k for the lower end, and 130k+ for the higher models), the higher brightness will translate to higher black levels. That's just simple math, right? I think the only way to counteract that, is if the iris can close down more on the newer models, to bring the brightness down even further than you could on the older models. I don't believe this is the case. Am I correct in my assumptions? Thanks.
The 2014 JVCs (RS4910, 57, 67) were great for the time. The 4910 in particular was amazing for the money if you could get enough light from it. However, starting with the 2016 models and up, they went a big step forward in terms of more light output, better lamp stability, better eshift, sharpness, and better contrast on the RS5-6XX relative to the light they produced. I would go for one of these models or even an RS4XX if want a really economical price. FYI, I've owned an RS4810, RS4910, RS500, and have an RS440 today.
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post #11 of 34 Old 06-13-2020, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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So, I haven't measured in a while, but using some other measurements I had, I think I'm at about 350 lumens at -15 on the 4910. Im pretty sure I measured it at about 43k:1(mid throw), so that gives me a black level of .008. If the 5xx models get 250 lumens, and if they even only get double that contrast, about 85k:1, I should get a black level of .003. With the 57 being slightly lower in brightness, say 325 lumens instead of 350, and maybe slightly lower in contrast than the 5xx (120k vs 130k), say 80k:1, I would get.004...almost identical to the black level of the 5xx. Both are half the black level value of 4910, but almost identical to each other. If you guys think this makes sense, I think I have found my answer.

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post #12 of 34 Old 06-13-2020, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by robbyc30 View Post
So, I haven't measured in a while, but using some other measurements I had, I think I'm at about 350 lumens at -15 on the 4910. Im pretty sure I measured it at about 43k:1(mid throw), so that gives me a black level of .008. If the 5xx models get 250 lumens, and if they even only get double that contrast, about 85k:1, I should get a black level of .003. With the 57 being slightly lower in brightness, say 325 lumens instead of 350, and maybe slightly lower in contrast than the 5xx (120k vs 130k), say 80k:1, I would get.004...almost identical to the black level of the 5xx. Both are half the black level value of 4910, but almost identical to each other. If you guys think this makes sense, I think I have found my answer.
Check out the cine4home.de web site. They have contrast ratios for these JVCs based on light output, zoom, and iris settings for the models discussed. If I recall, there is very little difference between the 4910 and 57 unless the iris is mostly or all of the way closed. Few people can use that setting, so once the iris is opened up, both units are really similar.
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post #13 of 34 Old 06-13-2020, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
The 2014 JVCs (RS4910, 57, 67) were great for the time. The 4910 in particular was amazing for the money if you could get enough light from it. However, starting with the 2016 models and up, they went a big step forward in terms of more light output, better lamp stability, better eshift, sharpness, and better contrast on the RS5-6XX relative to the light they produced. I would go for one of these models or even an RS4XX if want a really economical price. FYI, I've owned an RS4810, RS4910, RS500, and have an RS440 today.
Thanks David. So, I am completely satisfied with every aspect of my 4910, except for black level. I always want lower. I know the 2016 models are a big step up overall, but I don't need or want any of the improvements like brightness, eshift, sharpness, etc. The only thing I am interested in is better black levels. If my math is correct, and the black levels for the 5xx series are about the same as the 57, I would rather not pay the large price increase going up to the newer models.
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post #14 of 34 Old 06-13-2020, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Check out the cine4home.de web site. They have contrast ratios for these JVCs based on light output, zoom, and iris settings for the models discussed. If I recall, there is very little difference between the 4910 and 57 unless the iris is mostly or all of the way closed. Few people can use that setting, so once the iris is opened up, both units are really similar.
I do remember reading some of his reviews back when these projectors came out. I will have to revisit those. I do use the pj at -15 iris, so those are the numbers I am looking at. Thanks again.
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post #15 of 34 Old 06-13-2020, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
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That’s what my 4910 looks like. Since I run it at -15, it pretty much only moves on fade to black.
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post #16 of 34 Old 06-13-2020, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Crunching some numbers using Cine4home’s calibrated numbers from his online reviews...

X500/RS4910–260 lumens/49k:1=.00530 BL
X700/RS57——230 lumens/80k:1=.00287 BL

X7000/RS500-320 lumens/107k:1=.00299 BL

So there is clearly a big jump in contrast going to the latest version of the JVC’s. But, because of the corresponding increase in brightness, the black levels remain basically the same. Since I don’t need more lumens, there seems to be no advantage in spending the money for the newer pj, strictly in reference to absolute black level. I realize there are many other things to consider, but as far as this one metric is concerned, this seems conclusive.

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post #17 of 34 Old 06-13-2020, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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So, I think I figured out why people say the blacks are better, when my calculations say they shouldn’t be. If you set up with mid or open iris, to take advantage of the added brightness, the blacks are better. Using Ekki’s numbers, setting them up with similar mid and high brightness levels, results in much higher contrast than the previous generation. Hence, better blacks. It’s only when you crank the iris down to get the absolute lowest black level possible, that the difference is negligible. Thanks everybody, for the links and for helping me think this one through. Well done AVS!

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post #18 of 34 Old 06-15-2020, 11:33 AM
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Im confused, is the higher or lower BL # better?

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post #19 of 34 Old 06-15-2020, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robbyc30 View Post
Crunching some numbers using Cine4home’s calibrated numbers from his online reviews...

X500/RS4910–260 lumens/49k:1=.00530 BL
X700/RS57——230 lumens/80k:1=.00287 BL

X7000/RS500-320 lumens/107k:1=.00299 BL

So there is clearly a big jump in contrast going to the latest version of the JVC’s. But, because of the corresponding increase in brightness, the black levels remain basically the same. Since I don’t need more lumens, there seems to be no advantage in spending the money for the newer pj, strictly in reference to absolute black level. I realize there are many other things to consider, but as far as this one metric is concerned, this seems conclusive.
Except you are missing one big factor. As you close down the manual iris, you get higher native contrast. So for a brighter projector, you would close down the manual iris more. For example, if you used your current projector with manual iris at -8. You would use the new projector with iris closed down more to get the same on screen brightness, therefore your native would be higher.
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post #20 of 34 Old 06-15-2020, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
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I totally get it. They’re better at mid and open iris. Brighter, with better blacks. Except that I’m already using it at -15 and its plenty bright. Honestly, if I could crank it down a bit lower, I would. So if I got a newer model, and cranked down the iris, I would get an even brighter pic, which I don’t want, and the blacks would be the same. I realize that my particular situation and taste are not the norm, and that most people would prefer the newer line, but for me, its not the right fit.
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post #21 of 34 Old 06-15-2020, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Im confused, is the higher or lower BL # better?
Lower.
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post #22 of 34 Old 06-15-2020, 05:12 PM
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I totally get it. They’re better at mid and open iris. Brighter, with better blacks. Except that I’m already using it at -15 and its plenty bright. Honestly, if I could crank it down a bit lower, I would. So if I got a newer model, and cranked down the iris, I would get an even brighter pic, which I don’t want, and the blacks would be the same. I realize that my particular situation and taste are not the norm, and that most people would prefer the newer line, but for me, its not the right fit.
Just curious: what is your screen size and gain? Type of room? And I presume for 1080p only?
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post #23 of 34 Old 06-15-2020, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
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110” diag, 16x9, estimated .8 gain, no HDR anytime soon. Light controlled room, grey. Think it’s about 7 or 8 ftL. About 400 hours on the bulb, and I use it a couple hundred hours a year, if that. I’ve recently kinda thrown together a theater “area”, after not having one for many years, but in my last proper home theater, with my Sharp 12kMKII, on a similar screen, I was mostly happy with 4 ftL...90% of the time.
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post #24 of 34 Old 06-15-2020, 06:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Just to give you an idea of how sensitive to brightness I am...

A month or so ago, we were watching an outdoor movie for the first time with my JVC RS2, on a slightly smaller, slightly higher gain screen. As we were watching, I was sure the projector was in high lamp mode. I was sure of it. After the movie was over, I checked. Low lamp. I estimated it was about 1 ftL more than I get on my theater screen.
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post #25 of 34 Old 06-23-2020, 08:29 PM
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Used RS-520 is better for you if you can find one, there is no reason to invest in any of the RS-56/57/66/67 models unless you were to get one dirt cheap. Usually in the used market, those cost almost as much as the RS-520, depends though, can vary.

There is no reason to buy a dimmer projector just to lose a TINY bit of extra brightness for a black floor, just buy someone's older lamp or a lamp with 1500 hours on it already, or get an ND filter to use only for certain movies to make them darker, or just crush blacks a little to give the perception of a lower black floor (even though it will not actually be lower, the gamma just above it will be).

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post #26 of 34 Old 06-25-2020, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
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I’d say, on average, a 520 is about a grand more than a 57. That’s a lot of money to spend for no reason...same black level at -15 iris, which is how I use it. YMMV.
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post #27 of 34 Old 06-28-2020, 01:10 PM
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So the rs45 I bought To downgrade from my rs420 showed up, granted I have anew bulb in it, I can’t say I did much of a downgrade. The rs46 or rs49 even less so I’d bet. Black levels are noticeably lighter but it’s not like I’m upset. Of course who knows what I’ll think around 500hrs. Been watching some of my favorites and pleased so far. The bat cave helps I’m sure because I still get blinded. Yes the rs420 is better though.

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post #28 of 34 Old 06-29-2020, 03:10 PM
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I was offered a RS66 with a brand new lamp on it for a Very very inviting price. I am tempted to sell my x570 and get the 66. I like the HDR on the 570 but I can live without it. I have a 100” so no need for a cannon light. What should I do? Thank you
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post #29 of 34 Old 06-30-2020, 09:26 AM
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I was offered a RS66 with a brand new lamp on it for a Very very inviting price. I am tempted to sell my x570 and get the 66. I like the HDR on the 570 but I can live without it. I have a 100” so no need for a cannon light. What should I do? Thank you
Doesn't make sense to me.
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post #30 of 34 Old 06-30-2020, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyp1974 View Post
I was offered a RS66 with a brand new lamp on it for a Very very inviting price. I am tempted to sell my x570 and get the 66. I like the HDR on the 570 but I can live without it. I have a 100” so no need for a cannon light. What should I do? Thank you
That's an 8 year old projector. Better to save for a 4K projector.
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