Official Optoma UHZ65LV Owner’s Thread - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 51 Old 06-16-2020, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Official Optoma UHZ65LV Owner’s Thread

Background:

I received mine in the beginning of June, 2020 after using the UHD60 as an everyday TV workhorse (4043 hrs for ~ 3 yrs). Our media/tv room is just a bedroom (~13.5’ x 14.5’) with a southerly facing slider window. The ceiling is pitched, and there are two, additional, large triangular windows above the slider, hence my interest in procuring a brighter PJ. That, and I’m intrigued by the laser engine.

Setup:

UHZ65LV is ceiling mounted and connected to a Marantz SR6010 (inputs are: 2 MAC PROs, ROKU 3920R, and occasionally a game counsel) with a RUIPRO fiber 33’ HDMI, and projecting onto a 119” HDTV AccuScreen 800008. I use a Gobal Clache IR/RF/IP convertor with iRule for all remote control.

Unboxing and Light-Off:

I started the installation process later afternoon, and had to install the ceiling mount (OCM815W) as the UHD60 was sitting upside down on a high shelf in the back of the room (legacy from its predecessor Panasonic PT-AE8000U).

As Optoma owners, you should appreciate the positioning setup dance, as did I while having to customize my ceiling mount by removing half of the extension tube length for both internal and external tubes in order to position the UHZ65LV just above the top of the screen. Note, the tubes are powder coated and pretty thick gauge steel, so it involved a trip to my shop.

In terms of remote control, I was able to get going using the same IR codes that are programmed in my system, so it seems the Optoma universal IR commands work for the new UHZ65LV.

When I fired it up it definitely eclipsed (figuratively) the UHD60 in terms of vibrancy and brightness, and there was an ample amount of sun in the room.

With the added brightness and detail along with my multiple inputs, I quickly found that the out of the box setting we’re not appropriate for my setup. I started to read through the Official Optoma UHZ65 Owners Thread and started playing with settings (a big thanks to those forum members).

Conclusion:

I’m still obsessing with various settings, and overall very satisfied with UHZ65LV. It’s definitely a vast improvement over the UHD60, and with more 4K content becoming available, I look forward to continuing to tweak and tune the setup, as the journey of striving for the best viewing experience is a cherished hobby.

I hope this forum can provide guidance for other UHZ65LV owners and I’m particularly interested in the nuance difference with other brands and models, along with other opinions on performance along with more technical information.

One last observation, it appears that the firmware has been divvied up and versioned controlled by system (there are three listed).
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post #2 of 51 Old 06-16-2020, 12:30 PM
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Thanks for posting this! I've been in the market for a while now for a new projector. I'm coming from an old but trusty BenQ W1070 but am now after a completely different beast...

Like you, I've done lots of research and have found the options pretty limited when it comes to bright 4K laser projectors under £5k. I'll be pairing mine with a 135" grey screen with some ambient light, hence the need for a light cannon (living room / cinema room that I don't want to convert into a batcave). This seems to tick most boxes and the brief reviews I've seen online seem mostly positive. Obviously there's no such thing as a perfect projector, but I was wondering if you'd tried it with gaming yet? The lag is my main concern.

The rated lumens is what excites me but how much did you have to dial it back to get something that's pretty colour balanced?

Thanks again for posting and I can't wait to hear about any more thoughts you have on this projector!
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post #3 of 51 Old 06-16-2020, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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@Part-Time-Rockstar , I have not yet tried gaming, and I did make note of the long-ish lag times. I'm tempted to get the new PS5, and would expect that the input lag may prove to be a factor, however, I'm not really a "gamer" so its not the most important feature for my use.



In terms of dialing it back, I don't have any software (yet) to measure calibration settings, e.g. lumens, contrast ratio, etc., so I'm not exactly sure other than a subjective notion. And I keep changing the settings, depending on my input (computer(s), or ROKU). Right now I'm running the dynamic mode ~ 90% power, with a slew of other image tweaks that vary from the default.
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post #4 of 51 Old 06-17-2020, 04:28 PM
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I’ve recieved my UHZ65LV a few days ago too. I create an AVSforum account just to reply to that thread because I also struggled trying to find informations about this projector before buying it and I wish I could have found more user reviews.

I took a couple of photos comparing side by side with my old UHD51ALV and showing the issues I found so far, unfortunately I need to post 5 messages to the forum before I can start attaching images, so I will give you more details later. This is just a quick Pros/Cons.

Pros:
- Very very bright.
- Very good looking colors at high brightness, even with Brilliant Colors at the max.
- Very sharp image.
- Native contrast is a lot better than with my old UHD51ALV (0.66” 4K DLP chip v.s. 0.47'' 4K DLP chip).
- With Dynamic Blacks, contrast is amazing... with a catch...

Cons:
- Color banding on gradients in HDR, I've seen a review of a similar projector ZK507-W on techradar.com complaining about the same thing (can't put the link, sorry)
- All Dynamic Blacks modes destroy color accuracy on small colorful bright objects in dark scenes

This last one is really what frustrates me the most: I tried the 3 Dynamic Black modes, they all calculate the brightness wrong: instead of ensuing there is enough light to keep showing colors correctly, it seems to adjust for the average brightness of the scene and if you have a small colorful bright object in a mostly dark scene (fire, flashlight, light saber, infinity stone), it will turn into a dim saturated blob (the most obvious example I found is a wide show when Loki holds the tesseract at the beginning of Infinity Wars in HDR, I will show you a photo when I can).
I wish there was a Dynamic Black option that dims the laser for truly dark scenes, but still gives enough light when needed (color accuracy first, then contrast).

It's frustrating, because the hardware is nearing perfection but the software is holding it down.
Do you know if what's the best way to get Optoma to release a firmware update fixing those issues?
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post #5 of 51 Old 06-17-2020, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agueniot View Post
Pros:
- Very very bright.
- Very good looking colors at high brightness, even with Brilliant Colors at the max.
- Very sharp image.
- Native contrast is a lot better than with my old UHD51ALV (0.66” 4K DLP chip v.s. 0.47'' 4K DLP chip).
- With Dynamic Blacks, contrast is amazing... with a catch...

Cons:
- Color banding on gradients in HDR, I've seen a review of a similar projector ZK507-W on techradar.com complaining about the same thing (can't put the link, sorry)
- All Dynamic Blacks modes destroy color accuracy on small colorful bright objects in dark scenes
Hi, aguenoit. For banding, try setting your player to 10 bit 4:4:4. As far as DB, calibrate your colors by setting the laser to the lower settings that match DB. For example, if on the LV DB1 is around 75%, calibrate colors at 75% and if it doesn't look good to your liking just reset RGB and CMS.

Good luck!
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post #6 of 51 Old 06-17-2020, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Hi, aguenoit. For banding, try setting your player to 10 bit 4:4:4. As far as DB, calibrate your colors by setting the laser to the lower settings that match DB. For example, if on the LV DB1 is around 75%, calibrate colors at 75% and if it doesn't look good to your liking just reset RGB and CMS.

Good luck!
Thanks .

Good idea to try HDR10 in 4:4:4, unfortunately 4:2:2 is the max the Apple TV can do.
I also tried to connect the projector directly without the AV reciever, it's still the same.
But there was no banding on the UHD51ALV, same settings, same cables.
I'm also skeptical: chroma subsampling should not cause banding... it's still supposed to be 2^10 levels of brightness, I shouldn't see banding on gray gradients.

For Dynamic Blacks and color calibration, I'm not sure how to do that exactly... if I just keep Brightness/Contrast/Color to 0 and go to "Brightness Mode" = "Power 75%", colors don't over-saturate, I just get a darker image.
It looks like pushing the contrast way down (like -30) can make it better in the scene I'm using to test, but it's probably because it hits some kind of brightness threshold, but it's not a solution, I don't want bright scenes to get darker.
So far I know all these settings will make bright colors in dark scenes more likely to saturate and look wrong with Dynamic Black:
- If Color is pushed too much
- If BrilliantColor > 1
- If Color Gamut is not Native
- If PureColor or PureContrast is On
I didn't touch CMS or RGB yet because I'm not talking about color accuracy here, I'm talking about big solid blobs of dimmed saturated red, green, blue, cyan, magenta, yellow and white.

I don't know if this is specific to the UHZ65LV of if this is just the way it always worked on all Optoma laser projectors. Has anyone seen anything like this with previous Optoma laser projectors like the UHZ65?

@themarginwalker : I'm curious to know if you also had these problems.
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post #7 of 51 Old 06-17-2020, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Agueniot, I may have experienced effects that I would describe as over-saturating in bright regions of an image. Grab a picture of the phenom, if you're able, and post and I, or others, can confirm.

I definitely followed guidance from the UHZ65 Owners Thread to get the settings to where they are now.

I'm currently at (SDR - BT.709, 10 bit 4:2:0):
Display Mode - Cinema
Wall Color -Off
Dynamic Range:

Auto
Brightness - 0
Contrast - 0
Sharpness - 8
Color - 0
Tint - 0
Gamma - Standard (2.2)
Color Settings:
Brilliant Color - 8
Color Temperature - Standard
Color Gamut - Native
CMS - untouched (for now)
RGB Gain/Bias - untouched
Color Space - Auto
Ultra Detail - Off
Brightness Mode:
Power 90% (I'm not sure if this leaves all of the DB off, I hit enter on the Power %, and in the info it only displays 90% for Brightness Mode)
Pure Engine:
All are Off
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post #8 of 51 Old 06-17-2020, 11:12 PM
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First thing, I was to say @Aztar35 is probably right about 10bit 4:4:4, the signal from my Apple TV is 12bit 4:2:2, I googled it and I found a bunch of forums where people complain about the Apple TV saying the 12bit mode is incompatible with a lot of TVs. Unfortunately, I didn't find a way to force the AppleTV to output at 10bit or the UHZ65LV to reject the 12bit signal.
So... it looks like UHZ65LV is incompatible with 12bit 4:2:2, causing banding issues.

@themarginwalker : Thanks, I will send you pictures, but since I'm new, I have to post 5 full-text messages before I'm allowed to
But I can tell you the most obvious bad scene I found so far (in both SDR and HDR) is at minute 4 of Avengers Infinity War (if you have this movie) there is a wide shot of Loki holding the tesseract and depending on your settings it may not even look like a cube anymore, just an oval solid dark cyan spot with some solid white shape in the middle. Still better than on my old UHD51ALV where it just looks like blue cheese during the whole scene.
I also saw something very weird in the Star Wars opening crawl where it just can decide what shade of yellow it should use and switches instantly from an almost greenish yellow to a golden orange.

I think the "Power%" and "Dynamic Black": I actually got confused too. It looks like the Power % setting is applied to Dynamic Black, but Dynamic Black is only active if selected.

After a few experiments, I ended up with:

I did try settings similar to yours.
You'll probably have to chose between Brilliant Color and Dynamic Black, they don't play well together..

SDR:
Brightness: 0
Contrast: 0
Sharpness: 8
Color: 0
Tint: 0
Gamma: 2.4
Color Settings:
Brilliant Color: 1
Color Temperature: Standard
Color Gamut: Cinema (looks more natural but I'm still undecided)
CMS/RGB/ColorSpace: untouched
Ultra Detail: Off (I tried, I was impressed, but it's bad on movies with a lot of grain)
Brightness Mode:
Selected: Dynamic Black 1 (I know I keep complaining about it but it makes the contrast so good I'm totally addicted now)
Power: 80% (did we mention this projector was extremely bright?)
Pure Engine: All Off

HDR:
HDR Picture Mode: Standard
Brightness: 0
Contrast: 0
Sharpness: 8
Color: 10 (unlike PureColor, this did not negatively impact Dynamic Black)
Tint: 0
Gamma: 2.4
Color Settings:
Brilliant Color: 1 (I really wanted to push this up in HDR, but Dynamic Black disagrees)
Color Temperature: Standard
Color Gamut: Native (Dynamic Black doesn't like the others)
CMS/RGB/ColorSpace: untouched
Ultra Detail: Off
Brightness Mode:
Selected: Dynamic Black 2 (all the problems I had in HDR also happen with Dynamic Black 1, but 2 has better contrast)
Power: 100%
Pure Engine: All Off
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post #9 of 51 Old 06-17-2020, 11:37 PM
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Yes! I can finally post pictures

I took a few photos when comparing my new UHZ65LV and my old UHD51ALV. I know it’s unfair because they’re not in the same price range, and my photos are bad quality iPhone photos, but it can still give you an idea of what to expect.

The is a picture showing the impact of BrilliantColor on the 2 projectors + the Bright mode.
The UHZ65LV is very good at keeping bright colors because of its RYGB color wheel.
That gives you the best Bright mode I've ever seen, good enough to watch TV with indirect day light (not direct sunlight).

Another photo is showing bright colorful scenes (they did not saturate for real, that's just the iPhone) and dark scenes.
Bright colors: the UHD51ALV was unable to produce bright cyan and yellow in HDR, the UHZ65LV is very good at it. I tried to find movies scenes with bright colors so you can tell the difference.
Contrast: You can clearly see a glowing frame around the picture on the right (the UHD51ALV is using the .47'' 4K DLP chip with a lightbulb), if you pay attention, you can still see the letterboxing black rectangles glow a little bit in bright scene with the UHZ65LV but Dynamic Black can make them a lot less visible.

Then I have photos of the 2 problems I was talking about:
- Banding: this is the Lion King in HDR from Disney+ on Apple TV. Apparently the UHZ65LV is incompatible with 12bit 4:2:2, causing banding issues with Apple TV and maybe other devices.
- Color saturation on bright objects in dark scenes with Dynamic Black: I talked about my love/hate relationship with this feature way too much already but you can finally see what I mean.
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post #10 of 51 Old 06-18-2020, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agueniot View Post
I think the "Power%" and "Dynamic Black": I actually got confused too. It looks like the Power % setting is applied to Dynamic Black, but Dynamic Black is only active if selected.
That sounds right. But when DB is activated, depending on the setting, it will dim comparable to a power setting.
I think what you're experiencing in those shots with Loki holding the Teserract is a form of compression where the algo pumps up whites but dims surrounding darks. There was some of that on the UHZ but I cal'd a lot of it out. The laser puts out strong blues. Get a good meter and calibrate the CMS and adjust contrast and brightness.

By the way, are you on FW C17? Anyway, because of its higher brightness than the UHZ65, the UHZ65LV might be more of a challenge but it shouldn't be too different from the base model. Here's what I measured blacks and contrast to be on the UHZ65.

Here is the calibrated native black measurement at .399 and contrast at 1472.


Next is Dynamic Black set to level 1.


Now at DB 2. Notice the black floor is now all the way down to .025. And I was able to calibrate away almost all of what you described, although it might be different on some scenes on the UHZ65 perhaps due to its being less bright.



So, you can experiment with the LV by having two calibrated settings, one for dark movies and one for general mixes of dark and bright content. If you calibrate only using a low laser setting and then switching back to comparable DB on setting, you risk compromising the image quality for bright scenes.

Good luck!
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Last edited by Aztar35; 06-18-2020 at 04:37 PM.
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post #11 of 51 Old 06-18-2020, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
a form of compression where the algo pumps up whites but dims surrounding darks.
Yes, it's exactly that.
It's as if it was pushing the power level extremely low and the contrast extremely high way over the limit.

If anyone has this movie and can verify this particular scene on the UHZ65, it would help us determine if the new UHZ65LV as good (as bad) as the UHZ65 (which had extremely good reviews), or if this is a new problem with the UHZ65LV.

I didn't invest on calibration tools yet, but I'll keep tweaking the settings to see which ones have an impact on it.
I don't want a "dark movie mode" and a "bright movie mode", because, especially in HDR, the same movie can have both very dark and very bright scenes.

FW Version says:
System: C04
LAN: C09
MCU: C03

I don't know the process for updating the firmware, if there is a firmware update available, or where to look for it.
Did you install an update on your UHZ65?
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post #12 of 51 Old 06-18-2020, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agueniot View Post
Yes, it's exactly that.
It's as if it was pushing the power level extremely low and the contrast extremely high way over the limit.

If anyone has this movie and can verify this particular scene on the UHZ65, it would help us determine if the new UHZ65LV as good (as bad) as the UHZ65 (which had extremely good reviews), or if this is a new problem with the UHZ65LV.

I didn't invest on calibration tools yet, but I'll keep tweaking the settings to see which ones have an impact on it.
I don't want a "dark movie mode" and a "bright movie mode", because, especially in HDR, the same movie can have both very dark and very bright scenes.

FW Version says:
System: C04
LAN: C09
MCU: C03

I don't know the process for updating the firmware, if there is a firmware update available, or where to look for it.
Did you install an update on your UHZ65?
It could be different on the LV version but the new UHZ65s come with FW version C17. When I had my UHZ65 when taking those measurements, it had FW C11.
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post #13 of 51 Old 06-18-2020, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
It could be different on the LV version but the new UHZ65s come with FW version C17. When I had my UHZ65 when taking those measurements, it had FW C11.
How do UHZ65 owners install the update from C11 to C17?

It looks like the process is to... contact tech support and ship the projector to Optoma???!!
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post #14 of 51 Old 06-18-2020, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by agueniot View Post
How do UHZ65 owners install the update from C11 to C17?

It looks like the process is to... contact tech support and ship the projector to Optoma???!!
To the best of my knowledge, I believe you still have to send it in for the firmware update. But C17 is for the UHZ65 and I don't know sure if it applies to the UHZ65LV.

As far as that scene in Avengers Infinity War, it is similar on the UHZ65 in DB2 but without calibration. You can try a simple fix for now by setting contrast to -18 or using DB1, until you get a proper calibration done. Also, you can go into the PureEngine module and turn off Pure Contrast and see how you like that.
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post #15 of 51 Old 06-20-2020, 09:07 AM
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How are you finding the black levels? I read that you are having trouble taming the contrast, but can it do good blacks? Bright projectors designed for lights on viewing generally have dark greys instead of black.



Did you guys find any review of this projector before buying it?



I cant find a single review!
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post #16 of 51 Old 06-20-2020, 02:07 PM
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How are you finding the black levels
It totally depends if Dynamic Black is ON or OFF.
Anyone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the TI's 0.66” 4K DLP chip has a native contrast of 2,000:1, this is the contrast you get when Dynamic Black is off, and all DLP projectors have this limitation.
This limited contrast will definitely give you a visible glow on letterboxing bars when watching dark scenes in movies when Dynamic Black is off.

But, the solution for that is Dynamic Black: because this is a laser projector, it can dim the light very quickly and produce just enough light it needs to project the scene you're watching.
Then black becomes 1/2000 as bright as the brightest object in the scene, and in a dark scene, it becomes so dark you may not even see the letterboxing bars anymore.
Theoretically, if the screen is totally black, it can shut down the laser, so the contrast can go to infinity and beyond.

You probably want to hear it from more people because I'm definitely not an expert, but I'm totally satisfied with the black levers when Dynamic Black on.

I have a few photos comparing the black levels in dark scenes between the UHZ65LV and the UHD51ALV (which has the 0.47'' 4K DPL chip and a light bulb)


The letterboxing bars will not totally disappear, but they should be dim enough to not bother you and personally I think it looks really good.

But unfortunately, there is a side effect. As I said in previous posts, Dynamic Black doesn't properly calculate the amount of light it needs (tried to dim too much) and in scenarios where there is a small colorful bright object in a mostly dark scene, it will dim too much and this object will be beyond what the projector can display, causing white and color saturation. It typically happens on fire, flashlights, lightsabers, lightbulbs, infinity stones and similar MacGuffins. But I spent some time trying the different settings and I think I know how to mitigate that.

I used this scene from Infinity War, minute 4, a wide shot in a mostly dark scene with a the tesseract glowing.
I couldn't find a camera that can actually capture both the bright and dark elements of that scene.

BTW, this is with Firmware version C04, if you're reading this from the future, the problem I'm describing below may have been fixed (by simply calculating the required power level more level more accurately to give enough light, which would scarify contrast a little bit if something it bright in the scene).

These first 2 photos show how Dynamic Black improves contrast (the glowing letterboxing black bars).

Please ignore the glowing Tesseract here, it's saturated because of my camera, I zoom on it in the other photos to show you how it really looks like.
Sorry I took the pictures with an iPhone and you can't precisely trust the overall brightness or consistency across pictures, but I did make sure it accurately shows the problems of color saturation and bad colors in gradients.

And now... this is how the Tesseract look like with the default HDR and HDR2 modes:

For those who haven't seen any of the Marvel movies, the Tesseract is a cube not an orb.

Let’s reset everything to more neutral settings…
Color Temp: Standard, Color Gamut: Native, HDR Picture Mode: Standard, Gamma 2.2, everything else to 0/Minimum/Disabled
... and turn Dynamic Black off... this is what the Tesseract is supposed to look like:

The power level doesn't really have an impact on quality, if just makes the image dimmer (something you don't see on my photos)
It's jut too bad in this mode the contrast is 2,000:1 and the letterboxing bars are glowing.

If we turn on dynamic blacks with the settings I wrote above, it doesn't look as bad as the default HDR/HDR2 modes:

Interesting takeaway: Dynamic Black 1 is not better than Dynamic Black 2 at preventing saturation.

I'm keeping Dynamic Black 2 for everything below.

I tried to see if changing the HDR Picture mode does anything:

But it does not prevent saturation.

Next is the Contrast setting. We all know if Contrast is pushed too high on a TV or projector it causes whites and bright colors to saturate, so reducing it should prevent saturation, right?

Nope. Because Dynamic Black doesn't care about your Contrast setting, it recalculates its own contrast to compensate for dimming the light.

Next is Color Gamut, and this is where it gets interesting

Native and Presentation can produce smooth natural gradients in this scene (even if the middle of the Tesseract is still saturated)
Cinema, Game, HDTV have serious problem with gradients adding a glowing halo with the wrong color.
I feel like the Native Color Gamut's yellow is too bright and it's causing skin tones to be slightly off. I decided to go with Color Gamut=Presentation for now.

And finally we have BrilliantColor:

I used to hate BrilliantColor on my old UHD51ALV because it made yellow look like goose poop. In comparaison, BrilliantColor on the UHZ65LV looks extremely good, which is the key for making the Bright more watchable in day light with acceptable colors.
Unfortunately, it completely crushes gradients with Dynamic Black.

I tried other setting but I didn't take pictures, wasn't interesting enough.
PureColor/PureContrast also make it worse.
The regular Color setting is actually ok to use if you don't push it too much.
Changing Gamma doesn't really affect saturation but it wouldn't be an option anyway.

Conclusion:
  • Don’t keep the default settings
  • Dynamic Black can give you a really good contrast/black levels
  • Don’t use the following with Dynamic Black:
    • Cinema, Game or HDTV Color Gamut
    • Brilliant Color
    • PureContrast/PureColor (was used by default HDR mode)

My new settings:
Dynamic Black 2 - Because Dynamic Black 1 doesn't look better
Color = 10 in HDR, 0 in SDR - It didn't look to make anything worse
Gamma = 2.4 - But if you prefer 2.2, just keep 2.2. I just feel like 2.2 looks more like a TV and 2.4 looks more like a movie theater.
Brilliant Color = 1 - I know it doesn't get as bright as it could without it, but it really makes Dynamic Black look bad.
Color Gamut = Presentation - Or Native if you prefer, but remember all the other Color Gamuts will crush gradients and add weird colors in the middle.



I also have to say, this scene is a very extreme worst case scenario, and even if my new settings don't look as good as the reference image with Dynamic Black OFF, it's worth losing a bit of fidelity to get a much better black levels, as long as it doesn't take me out of the movie.
At the end I think I'm satisfied with the compromise I found, and I don't regret buying this projector, even if I wish I had more control.
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post #17 of 51 Old 06-20-2020, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agueniot View Post
I don't regret buying this projector, even if I wish I had more control.

One way to get more control is via a Panasonic UB420/820/9000 and it's HDR Optimizer, because you can raise the black levels and reduce the highlight intensity to help tune the output to your projector. The HDR Optimizer also works with HDR content streamed through the UB420/820/9000. You can also set the UB420/820/9000 to convert HDR content to SDR and then you can use the other UHZ65LV display options (Cinema, reference, ISFnight, etc).

You can also go into the UHZ65LV service menu and make the ISF modes available.
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post #18 of 51 Old 06-20-2020, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
You can also go into the UHZ65LV service menu and make the ISF modes available.
Wow thanks! I had no idea there was a secret menu like at In-N-Out
I found the other Konami codes to activate the other secret menus: https://factory-reset.com/wiki/UHZ65

Unfortunately it won't help for Dynamic Black in HDR: ISF modes are grayed out in HDR.
I also doubt raising the black levels and reduce the highlight intensity would prevent saturation in the Dynamic Black "dark scene with small glowing object" scenario: it doesn't saturate because the input signal is too bright, it saturates because it ignores the glowing object when calculating the brightness. I tried last time to reduce the contrast, it didn't solve it. But I'm not trying to solve this anymore... until I find another shot in a movie where is really looks terrible.
Fixes on the Blu-Ray player are not really an option for me: most of the movies I watch these days are rentals on the AppleTV.

News about banding:
Last time I said @Aztar35 was "probably" right about 10bit 4:4:4, this time I can confirm he's definitely right.
I'm starting to see this banding issue more that I thought I would especially on gradients in the sky.
I was able to reproduce the same banding issue on my Blu-Ray player in 12 bit 4:2:2 and the problem goes away in 12 bit 4:4:4.
I've read the UHZ65 has the same problem, so this is not a new issue, but be aware, if you're planning to buy the UHZ65 or the UHZ65LV, there will be banding in HRD if your signal is 4:2:2 and the Apple TV (some other devices) does not support HRD in 4:4:4. Check your box/player/cables and AV receiver.
At this point I'm just hoping Apple will release a new Apple TV that supports it and I may have to buy a new AV receiver.

[Update]
Finally I found a solution for banding! More like a workaround...
My AV Receiver (Yamaha X-A850) has two 4K MODEs, I was in MODE 2 (which didn't support 4K HDR at 60fps), I switched to MODE 1.
After restarting, the Apple TV was in 4K HDR 60fps 10bit 4:2:0.
No, the trick is to prevent the Apple TV to ever switch to 12bit 4:2:2.
For that if you go to "Match Content" and enable "Match Dynamic Range" but do not enable "Match Frame Rate".
Then the default for the UI can be switched back to 4K SDR 60fps (I don't need the UI to be HDR).
And when it tries to play a movie, because it's not matching the frame rate, it will stay in 60fps, but since it's unable to do 60fps in 12bit 4:2:2... it will stay in 10bit 4:2:0 => No banding
I know... purists will say 4:2:0 drops my my chroma resolution to 1080p and 60 is not a multiple of 24... but the alternative is to have a "256 color image" look like in a cutscene from a 90's video game.
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post #19 of 51 Old 06-21-2020, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agueniot View Post
Wow thanks! I had no idea there was a secret menu like at In-N-Out
I found the other Konami codes to activate the other secret menus: https://factory-reset.com/wiki/UHZ65

Unfortunately it won't help for Dynamic Black in HDR: ISF modes are grayed out in HDR.
I also doubt raising the black levels and reduce the highlight intensity would prevent saturation in the Dynamic Black "dark scene with small glowing object" scenario: it doesn't saturate because the input signal is too bright, it saturates because it ignores the glowing object when calculating the brightness. I tried last time to reduce the contrast, it didn't solve it. But I'm not trying to solve this anymore... until I find another shot in a movie where is really looks terrible.
Fixes on the Blu-Ray player are not really an option for me: most of the movies I watch these days are rentals on the AppleTV.

News about banding:
Last time I said @Aztar35 was "probably" right about 10bit 4:4:4, this time I can confirm he's definitely right.
I'm starting to see this banding issue more that I thought I would especially on gradients in the sky.
I was able to reproduce the same banding issue on my Blu-Ray player in 12 bit 4:2:2 and the problem goes away in 12 bit 4:4:4.
I've read the UHZ65 has the same problem, so this is not a new issue, but be aware, if you're planning to buy the UHZ65 or the UHZ65LV, there will be banding in HRD if your signal is 4:2:2 and the Apple TV (some other devices) does not support HRD in 4:4:4. Check your box/player/cables and AV receiver.
At this point I'm just hoping Apple will release a new Apple TV that supports it and I may have to buy a new AV receiver.
The HDR Optimizer is designed expressly to prevent saturation in HDR highlights. On my UHD50 this is exactly what it does on the AIW scene where Loki displays the Infinity stone, and it also seems to allow DB to activate to reduce black levels more than when I use my X700 for the exact same disc because DB reads the incoming signal intensity and bases its response to that, AFAIK. BD will not activate if the incoming signal has any pixels with peak intensity, AIUI. The UB420/820 HDR BT2020 to SDR BT2020 (or SDR Rec709) remapping allows for a near identical image to be displayed and you can use the ISF modes.

Your X800 has some streaming options and it will allow for 24hz 12bit 4:4:4 streaming as does the X700 which has more streaming apps.
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post #20 of 51 Old 06-21-2020, 11:41 AM
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Thanks @agueniot for the wealth of information you are providing, there is a lot of interest in this projector, but strangely there are no reviews of it anywhere.


On the first batch of screenshots the UHZ65LV seems to have black crush, you can see more shadow detail on the photos from your previous projector (but it could be from the exposure on the iphone photos).


So in your current settings is HDR working? Or you are focusing on getting it to provide a good picture in SDR first?


Did you have to find a good configuration for SDR and another for HDR?


Thanks!
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post #21 of 51 Old 06-22-2020, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
That sounds right. But when DB is activated, depending on the setting, it will dim comparable to a power setting.
I think what you're experiencing in those shots with Loki holding the Teserract is a form of compression where the algo pumps up whites but dims surrounding darks. There was some of that on the UHZ but I cal'd a lot of it out. The laser puts out strong blues. Get a good meter and calibrate the CMS and adjust contrast and brightness.

By the way, are you on FW C17? Anyway, because of its higher brightness than the UHZ65, the UHZ65LV might be more of a challenge but it shouldn't be too different from the base model. Here's what I measured blacks and contrast to be on the UHZ65.

Here is the calibrated native black measurement at .399 and contrast at 1472.


Next is Dynamic Black set to level 1.


Now at DB 2. Notice the black floor is now all the way down to .025. And I was able to calibrate away almost all of what you described, although it might be different on some scenes on the UHZ65 perhaps due to its being less bright.



So, you can experiment with the LV by having two calibrated settings, one for dark movies and one for general mixes of dark and bright content. If you calibrate only using a low laser setting and then switching back to comparable DB on setting, you risk compromising the image quality for bright scenes.

Good luck!

Hi. Just wondering if you were able to test maximum lumen output? Also, are there two different versions of this projector?


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Quote:
Originally Posted by xcj View Post
Thanks @agueniot for the wealth of information you are providing, there is a lot of interest in this projector, but strangely there are no reviews of it anywhere.


On the first batch of screenshots the UHZ65LV seems to have black crush, you can see more shadow detail on the photos from your previous projector (but it could be from the exposure on the iphone photos).


So in your current settings is HDR working? Or you are focusing on getting it to provide a good picture in SDR first?


Did you have to find a good configuration for SDR and another for HDR?


Thanks!
TL;DR: SDR/HDR, same tings: everything looks perfect until you realize Dynamic Black can give you an even better contrast, but then it starts crushing colors.

I have the UHD HDR Benchmark Blu-Ray from Spears&Munsil (http://spearsandmunsil.com), it’s full of patterns I don’t understand, but it has a lot of great test cases, it’s $39.95. I particularly like the 4K HDR demo footage with is both beautiful to watch (mostly landscapes, animals and object) and very useful (shows the most extreme things you can display in HDR, and you can clearly tell if something if wrong). For me it was worth it, so far I spent more time watching this Blu-Ray than any other movie, I put it back every-time I change my setting to make sure I can still see the mountains behind the horses in the snow (white crushing), colors still look good in sunsets, and crazy-bright colors look good.
Anyway… they have an SDR section to, so let’s talk about SDR.

Grays
This first test called “Contrast” show the grayscale ramp. I wanted to run the test with the default sRGB Mode, I thought it was the “perfectly color accurate calibrated Rec.709 mode”… but immediately I saw a suspicious blue bias in the middle of the grayscale ramp 😱



I didn’t try to investigate, I just gave up and went back to Cinema mode with the most “neutral” settings:
Color Temp: Standard, Color Gamut: Presentation*, Gamma 2.2, everything else to 0/Minimum/Disabled
I especially made sure Sharpness and Ultra Detail are off: I don’t want to cheat by highlighting edges in the brightness test.
The gradient looks ok now. I’m keeping these settings moving forward.

*: I now consider Presentation the most neutral/natural Color Gamut (in term of weird side effect)

Black Levels
Next test is “Brighntess” but they could have called it “black levels”.
This one is so dark I had to use a real camera this time with a 10 second exposure.
Just for fun, I took a picture of the previous “Contrast” test with the same exposure.
Fortunately, Spears&Munsil have a PDF manual showing what it’s supposed to look like.



And this is the result:



I don’t have screen, this is just a white wall, there is no black frame around the image, it’s just the wall, it’s important because all the light you see in this picture comes from the projector.
With Dynamic Black Off, there is a significant glow, but really not as bright as it looks the photo above. The photo below is a better example.
You will probably get the same contrast with any 4K DLP projector using the 0.66’’ 4K DLP chip, but it’s still a lot better than my old UHD51ALV with the 0.47’’ 4K DLP chip.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...mentid=2746926

If you want a better native contrast, you won’t get it from a DLP or LCD projector, you need another technology like D-ILA (JVC) or SXRD (Sony), but if you still want a laser projector, we’re talking 5 time the price for half the brightness and twice the weight.

More tests
The Spears&Munsil disk had more SDR tests but nothing interesting to say about it. I’m sure we can talk about XPR pixel shifting and 1-pixel stripe patterns another day. (Spoiler alert: they're not perfectly evenly spaced).



All I can say about Brightness/Contrast/Color is:
With Dynamic Black Off:
1 - No, it’s not crushing the blacks, you can see a glow but you will see all the details
2 - I don’t think white is getting crushed either. There was a weird blue bias issue in the sRGB mode, just don’t use it.
3 - I have not reason to believe it would have any issue displaying any color in SDR
With Dynamic Black On:
1 - Black levels look a lot better but you don’t gain or lose details
2 - Forget any assumption you had about color, any color can be crushed if the rest of the scene is mostly darker.

Me complaining about Dynamic Black again
And here I am again… complaining about Dynamic Black destroying colors… this time in SRD.
I was waching a TV show the other day… there is a scene with a guy holding a flashlight next to a swimming pool…
… and then he turns the flashlight to the camera.


(the rainbow around the flashlight is not a projector issue, this is how it's supposed to look like)

The pool is supposed to look the same before and after.
With Dynamic Black, the “flashlight in camera” looks good because it has enough light.
But the other frame is bad because one again it doesn’t properly calculate how much light it needs. Then the smooth greenish gradients in the water turns into solid crushed teal and the color suddenly snaps to the right color when the flashlight becomes visible.
Dynamic Black 1 is not as bas as the others here, but still gets it wrong.



It’s actually more visible in another shot of the pool:


(I'm not sure which DB setting I had for this one, 1 or 2, but I know they were both wrong).
You can see it's not only blue/cyan, it also saturates the whites/yellows, and again, it's only in mostly dark scenes with dynamic Black. There is no white crush in bright scenes.

A last one, from the trailer of the upcoming Pixar movie Soul.



I think Presentation/Native have less “weird colors” in the gradients…
But if this is the main character, you probably want to turn Dynamic Black off when you watch it.

At the end, as always, it’s a compromise.
You have to chose between a consistent slight glow in dark scenes and random glitches on bright objects in dark scenes.
Bright scene are always perfect because the power level is restored to the max.

At this point I'm still using Dynamic Black 1 in SDR and Dynamic Black 2 in HDR.
I may end up disabling Dynamic Black in SDR if I keep seeing more issues.
I will not disable Dynamic Black in HDR because dark scenes are a darker than in SDR and good black levels becomes more important.

Conclusion
But the real question is: Is the UHZ65LV the best projector at that price?
Unfortunately I don’t have the answer. I don’t have the others to compare.
The things I complain about are probably not specific to this projector:
- The limited native contrast (Dynamic Black OFF) is a problem all DLP projectors have
- I didn’t talk about yet, but yes, I can see rainbows, like on every DLP projector
- The banding issue with 12bit 4:2:2 happens on a lot of TVs and projectors and is solvable
- I’ve seen posts about the UHZ65 saying colors look wrong with Dynamic Black (sounds familiar)

So maybe it has the same weaknesses all other projectors have, but it also have unique strengths:
- It’s exceptional to have a 5000 lumen laser projector in this price range.
- Unlike the UHZ65, it does support 3D Blu-Ray (I’ll need to get back to that another time).
- From what I heard no other technology can beat the sharpness of DLP.
- If you ignore the Dynamic Black glitches, the image is excellent, and colors look great.
- With the 5000 lumen for bright scenes and Dynamic Black for dark scenes, HDR is insanely impressive, and I'm projecting a 130'' image.
- In other brighter modes, it's also a great projector for ambient light/daylight SDR watching.

I know what you want is a real review comparing side by side with another projector you already know.
It will take time… with the current global health situation, it took 3 weeks to get mine to ship.

I'm giving you my current settings: the only issue I have is with Dynamic Blacks and these are tweaked to minimize the side effects.
Since last time I changed Color Gamut to Presentation in both SDR and HDR.

SDR: (Modified Cinema Mode)
Brightness: 0
Contrast: 0
Sharpness: 8
Color: 0
Tint: 0
Gamma: 2.4 (use 2.2 if you feel like 2.4 is too dark)
Color Settings:
Brilliant Color: 1
Color Temperature: Standard
Color Gamut: Presentation (Native is too yellow, the others have problems with Dynamic Black)
CMS/RGB/ColorSpace: untouched
Ultra Detail: Off (I tried, I was impressed, but it's bad on movies with a lot of grain)
Brightness Mode: Dynamic Black 1 (next time something looks bad I turn it off)
Pure Engine: All Off

HDR:
HDR Picture Mode: Standard
Brightness: 0
Contrast: 0
Sharpness: 8
Color: 10 (unlike PureColor, this did not negatively impact Dynamic Black)
Tint: 0
Gamma: 2.4 (use 2.2 if you feel like 2.4 is too dark)
Color Settings:
Brilliant Color: 1 (I really wanted to push this up in HDR, but Dynamic Black disagrees)
Color Temperature: Standard
Color Gamut: Presentation (Native is too yellow, the others have problems with Dynamic Black)
CMS/RGB/ColorSpace: untouched
Ultra Detail: Off
Brightness Mode: Dynamic Black 2 (all the problems I had in HDR also happen with Dynamic Black 1, but 2 has better contrast)
Power: 100%
Pure Engine: All Off

If you can think of a particular shot in a movie I have access to, I can try to show you or describe to you how it looks.
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Hi. Just wondering if you were able to test maximum lumen output? Also, are there two different versions of this projector?


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Hi. Those measurements were taken from the UHZ65 not the UHZ65LV.
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post #24 of 51 Old 06-22-2020, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Hi. Those measurements were taken from the UHZ65 not the UHZ65LV.

What did you measure for highest lumens uncalibrated?


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post #25 of 51 Old 06-22-2020, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by kensingtonwick View Post
What did you measure for highest lumens uncalibrated?


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I don't recall ever measuring that.
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post #26 of 51 Old 06-22-2020, 09:42 PM
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Okay. Do you know the difference between the two models?


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post #27 of 51 Old 06-22-2020, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by kensingtonwick View Post
Okay. Do you know the difference between the two models?


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AFAICT the ZK507 = UHZ65LV:

https://www.projectorcentral.com/Opt...tor-Review.htm

UHZ65:

https://www.projectorcentral.com/Opt...ter-Review.htm

The UHZ65 and UHZ65LV have different power outputs, so I would speculate that the UhZ65LV/ZK507 uses an updated and more efficient laser hence the higher lumens.

The Spec sheet for the UHZ65LV and the ZK507 shows the same remote for both but the user manual indicates that "the home model" uses a different remote, so maybe an owner can state which remote came with the UHZ65LV.

Last edited by DunMunro; 06-22-2020 at 10:13 PM.
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post #28 of 51 Old 06-22-2020, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
The Spec sheet for the UHZ65LV and the ZK507 shows the same remote for both but the user manual indicates that "the home model" uses a different remote, so maybe an owner can state which remote came with the UHZ65LV.
The remote I got is the one with the laser pointer.
Too bad I don't have a cat to play with it.
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post #29 of 51 Old 06-23-2020, 01:56 AM
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Hi. Try to read this test.
This is a French test, and the writer explain how to fix some image issues.
It is for the uhz65, but I think it is similar to uhz 65lv

https://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blog/index.php/10/09/2018/test-optoma-uhz65-lavis-de-greg/
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post #30 of 51 Old 06-23-2020, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
AFAICT the ZK507 = UHZ65LV:

The UHZ65 and UHZ65LV have different power outputs, so I would speculate that the UhZ65LV/ZK507 uses an updated and more efficient laser hence the higher lumens.

The Spec sheet for the UHZ65LV and the ZK507 shows the same remote for both but the user manual indicates that "the home model" uses a different remote, so maybe an owner can state which remote came with the UHZ65LV.
I am thinking it's not that but maybe tweaks to the light path to open up more lumens. And if that's the case, the UHZ65 should have better contrast. Aside from light absorption, the lens too can increase lumen output. Does anyone know if the LV/ZK share the same exact lens as the UHZ?

The UHZ65 image with FW C17 looks very clean, by the way. On the past samples, at least the ones that I saw, FW C11 had some noise that I felt impacted the overall clarity of the image, not so with FW17, again from what I saw.
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