Is simulated sine wave UPS for projector..good or bad? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 30 Old 06-21-2020, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Is simulated sine wave UPS for projector..good or bad?

So, I was going to grab this CP1500AVRLCD for my rs540.
But two things that concern me...first it is not a true sine wave. Now first I thought, well, I only need it so I can shutdown the projector in case of a blackout so it has time to cool down the lamp so my guess was that the simulated sine wave wouldnt come into play until the battery was needed.
BUT reading about that model it seems that it performs voltage regulation so wouldnt that mean it that my projector would be working under a simulated sine wave at all times?

Also, I ALREADY have a voltage regulator (Monster AVS2000) so I surely do not need that.

I only recall one time where my previous projector was not able to cool down due to a sudden power loss but it is rate in my area so maybe I dont need to bother?

What you guys do for your own projectors?
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post #2 of 30 Old 06-21-2020, 12:34 PM
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Hey, no, the voltage regulation is performed by an autoformer not the "sine wave" ups. I do use the sine wave ups on everything and have no issues when things are running on the battery, im in south florida so thats often. Im pecular about power though...

From the wall I use the Cyberpower CPXXXPFCs for the sine wave ups, autoformer, and surge suppression, the display is a very nice bonus. Then I use Topaz Line Noise Suppressors(floating neutral secondary) for additional surge suppression and line noise reduction(140db common mode noise and 70db traverse mode). These do an excellent job of extending the life of components with switching supplies that are very sensitive to surges.

If you really want to knock the last bit of noise, use quadrapole(star quad) power cabling, you can make them youself and good example of the highest build quality is vh audios flavor 4. This is only for a varied current draw like if the projector has lamp dimming, AVRs, or small digital components, but that varied current causes a noise generating voltage to develop across the inductance of the power cable, and this noise sails right past the voltage regulators. Now knocking all this noise doesnt necessarily mean superior video performance(though ill swear by audio improvements), but it does improve component lifespan via heat generated. Quadrapole cabling has the added benefit of concentrating the magnetic field towards the center of the cable, less em radiation, and better emi/rfi reduction, though the latter is probably not an issue for power cables ;]

I also isolate electrical chains where I can with fiber optic hdmi extenders. Cant have an electrical spike through fiber. Say between a PC and the audio system, and then the audio system to the projector. This has additional noise benefits as well due to electrically connected components generate leakage current loops between one another. A home theater system is often a collection of components and the amount of loops can be very high. Using mov surge suppressors raises impedance between electrically connected components, so between the fiber isolation and the topaz transformers this enables the use of filterless power distribution(not high priced hifi stuff, just a simple strip with no surge suppression), and when you do have a multi component system like a multi channel sound system and leakage loops are unavoidable, the lower impedance connections drastically reduce that noise.

Sorry for rambling, but just in case you find it interesting xD

If you want the best UPS youll want to look into ferroresonant transformers, as these are they only units that will have no power gap when switching to the battery.
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post #3 of 30 Old 06-21-2020, 01:57 PM
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Been using a standard Backups 1000VA ups (5 of them) for years and years with my projector, audio gear, network gear, NVR, and computers, no issue at all, NONE, Zero, Nada. Or spend a ton of money on something that is meaningless in the age of digital power supplies.. Get some Monster cables and some of those $150 power cables too.. :-)

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post #4 of 30 Old 06-21-2020, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post
Been using a standard Backups 1000VA ups (5 of them) for years and years with my projector, audio gear, network gear, NVR, and computers, no issue at all, NONE, Zero, Nada. Or spend a ton of money on something that is meaningless in the age of digital power supplies.. Get some Monster cables and some of those $150 power cables too.. :-)
Your batteries are still working after 5 years? O.o

Those "digital" supplies are probably only still functioning becasue of the surge suppression from the ups. Have you seen the rate of switching supply failure in JVCs and Epsons? Its less common for people to use surge suppression on projectors and the psus get eatin alive by surges and line noise.

Ill agree though a simple standard ups with mov surge suppression is completely adequate. And the addition of an autoformer is even better.
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post #5 of 30 Old 06-21-2020, 03:27 PM
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I meant I have 5 of the UPS's but yes, I have replaced the batteries in 2 of the oldest ones, they lasted about 4 years, which is typical and expected. The Backups are nice as you can swap the battery without turning it off and you can also use the unit without it being plugged into power unlike some of the cheaper units.. Well maybe that is no longer a true but was a few year ago.

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post #6 of 30 Old 06-21-2020, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by airscapes View Post
some of those $150 power cables too.. :-)
https://www.thecableco.com/omega-qr-power-cord.html
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/li...tion-ac-cables

(・。・) I couldn't even begin to guess what those cables do. But you can make quadrapole cables with a counter spiral ground wiring, which is just standard wire geometry and magnetic field theory, for not much more than a standard 12/3 cable made in China. There's no arguing against the benefits of low inductance cables from an electrical engineering standpoint, they'er just less common with power cables and more common with low and ultra low signal cables like microphones. Like I said whether you see benefits in video quality is another story. I've personally seen it have a positive effect on uhp lamp dimming, where visible steps in the dimming function were completely alleviated, but this wasn't the case with solid state(led) dimming. It and other line noise reduction can also result in a more uniform distribution of light and reduction in flicker due to voltage related issues of powering the bulbs.

BTW switching(digital) supplies have notoriously high output impedance and mains leakage. They're not good power supplies, they're cheap and light. A 500w linear supply at 20lbs and $100 in parts compared to an equivalent switching supply at 1lb and $10. I have a few motors that don't get along with switching supplies at all -.- Switching transient overvoltages, inrush currents, etc. they'll short those switching supplies out with ease.
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post #7 of 30 Old 06-21-2020, 05:54 PM
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I was just being a smart ass.. I think sign-wave UPSs are a waste of money for the normal folk.. guess if you have more money than god there is no harm.. they remind me of that lexus or bmw or some car TV commercial where the audiophile says "There is real Gas inside those tubes!" :-)
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post #8 of 30 Old 06-21-2020, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by airscapes View Post
I was just being a smart ass.. I think sign-wave UPSs are a waste of money for the normal folk.. guess if you have more money than god there is no harm.. they remind me of that lexus or bmw or some car TV commercial where the audiophile says "There is real Gas inside those tubes!" :-)
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I often get killer deals on ebay for tripplite pure sine wave units that have been pulled from service with no batteries. The batteries are cheap to buy in bulk. just a thought. I do think pure sine wave would be better and i KNOW that my computer needs it as the newer computer power supplies do NOT like "simulated" sine wave power..
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post #9 of 30 Old 06-21-2020, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post
Been using a standard Backups 1000VA ups (5 of them) for years and years with my projector, audio gear, network gear, NVR, and computers, no issue at all, NONE, Zero, Nada. Or spend a ton of money on something that is meaningless in the age of digital power supplies.. Get some Monster cables and some of those $150 power cables too.. :-)
Cable quality may not matter for 4 or 6 foot cables. But if you are running 20+ ft HDMI cables in wall, you are better off spending on some quality cables.
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post #10 of 30 Old 06-21-2020, 06:24 PM
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The pure sinewave models aren't overly expensive < $170.
https://www.amazon.com/CyberPower-CP...dp/B00429N18S/
https://www.amazon.com/ESP-Surge-Pro...dp/B071P3P9XM/

I use a SurgeX which protects my pure sine CyberPower UPS, which protects all of my low-power stuff.
I've been running like that for 12 years and ZERO problems so far. (Still on the original lead-acid batteries.)

But we rarely get 1 storm a year here and the power rarely ever brownouts or blackouts.
But even if I lived in Florida, I'd still use the same gear... cause it's quality.
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post #11 of 30 Old 06-21-2020, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ipca204 View Post
I often get killer deals on ebay for tripplite pure sine wave units that have been pulled from service with no batteries. The batteries are cheap to buy in bulk. just a thought. I do think pure sine wave would be better and i KNOW that my computer needs it as the newer computer power supplies do NOT like "simulated" sine wave power..
I'm constantly drawn to ferroresonant ups
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Legacy-Powe...sAAOSwb0tevZCN

but since everything stays on and functions in brown/black outs I haven't felt the need to incorporate them, plus I'd have to do alot of dwelling rewiring which I'm not in the mood to do yet. There's real concern with inrush currents even with smaller 1-2kva isolation transformers in the event of brown outs, but the cyberpower ups switch fast enough that I don't get big spikes through the system. I ran it(the multichannel system on an isolation transformer) once without the ups and a brown out hit and BOOM POP POP BOOM as power cycled through the transformer and spiked through the subwoofers and the rest of the speakers XD scared the **** out of my little dog ;[

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Cable quality may not matter for 4 or 6 foot cables. But if you are running 20+ ft HDMI cables in wall, you are better off spending on some quality cables.
Anything over 10' and I just switch to fiber optic hdmi extenders, too much hassle with long copper signal cables, even the hybrids.
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post #12 of 30 Old 06-21-2020, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post
I was just being a smart ass.. I think sign-wave UPSs are a waste of money for the normal folk.. guess if you have more money than god there is no harm.. they remind me of that lexus or bmw or some car TV commercial where the audiophile says "There is real Gas inside those tubes!" :-)
Hope everyone had a happy fathers day!
So, I'm an electrical engineer and I used to work for a company that made "True Sine Wave" inverters for semi trucks/suvs/motor homes, etc and we did a lot of various testing against our competition which used the simulated sine wave (or 6 step square wave, or simulated sine wave). A UPS is essentially an AC to DC rectifier, then battery, and then inverter, so it is relevant.

Here is the basic conclusions of the pros and cons.

simulated sine wave devices generate a lot of higher order harmonics of the basic 60Hz frequency. Different models make different amplitudes at different multiples (3rd harmonic, 5th harmonic, 7th, etc)

For anything with a transformer or other magnetic device (such as a speaker) inside of it, true sine wave makes a huge difference, and here is the reason why - magnets are optimized around a specific operating frequency - if you get too far away from it, it stops transforming the voltage , and just creating heat. For certain things this kills the life and makes them not operate too efficiently.

For example, we ran a microwave on TSW vs Square wave and heated a cup of water. Running for say 60 seconds- square wave inverter would be about 10 degrees colder than a TSW. We ran these things on a life test and the microwave would die after about 50-100 hours of operation on square wave, and last much, much longer on the TSW.

We also tested things like minifridges, and they would sound a lot rougher whenever the compressor kicked in and shake a lot more on the square wave. We killed them too on the square wave.

For things like xBoxes, new TV's, Laptop chargers, which use very high frequency choppers to convert power rather than a big magnet, we could not prove ANY difference. The choppers just don't care. One easy way to tell if your devices use high frequency choppers is to look at the DC power spec on the wall wart, or on the back of the device - Choppers will usually say 100-240V, 50-60Hz on it somewhere.

For another demo, we connected the inverters directly to a speaker and it sounded like a nice tone at 60Hz on the TSW, and was painful to listen to on the square wave. It was also a little "scratchier" on the wall power. This is because the electrical coming out of the wall doesn't have great THD. I know we took a look at the THD of true sine wave inverter vs wall power, and while I don't remember the exact numbers the TSW had way better THD than what came out of the wall.

So, I would say that the TSW UPS are important depending on what you are powering with them. Otherwise they can be a waste of money.

My company made a lot of UPS as well, and there are a couple of different types - I don't remember exactly the nomenclature as I didn't work on them, but basically one type is constantly running through the battery, inverter, etc. These manage line power and always output a nice clean sine wave - handle voltage variation better. They are usually more expensive. The other type basically bypasses the whole rectifier, battery inverter chain unless you lose power and only switch to the inverter when input goes away. I would say to get the first type if you want cleaner power.
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post #13 of 30 Old 06-21-2020, 09:11 PM
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Anything over 10' and I just switch to fiber optic hdmi extenders, too much hassle with long copper signal cables, even the hybrids.
Nice, arent those pretty expensive?
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post #14 of 30 Old 06-21-2020, 09:53 PM
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Nice, arent those pretty expensive?
Shouldnt be more $200 if you need 4k60 4:4:4 hdr

the av access 4kex300 i think was the model.

I use 1080p though and just found some used ones on ebay for cheap
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post #15 of 30 Old 06-22-2020, 04:55 AM
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Shouldnt be more $200 if you need 4k60 4:4:4 hdr

the av access 4kex300 i think was the model.

I use 1080p though and just found some used ones on ebay for cheap
LOL, I have a feeling your definition of " cheap" is quite a bit different than most peoples.
A decent 4k60 4:4:4 HDR 30' fiber hdmi cable can easily be found for $60 or less, a 100' one, well under $100.
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post #16 of 30 Old 06-22-2020, 04:59 AM
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The pure sinewave models aren't overly expensive < $170.
https://www.amazon.com/CyberPower-CP...dp/B00429N18S/
https://www.amazon.com/ESP-Surge-Pro...dp/B071P3P9XM/

I use a SurgeX which protects my pure sine CyberPower UPS, which protects all of my low-power stuff.
I've been running like that for 12 years and ZERO problems so far. (Still on the original lead-acid batteries.)

But we rarely get 1 storm a year here and the power rarely ever brownouts or blackouts.
But even if I lived in Florida, I'd still use the same gear... cause it's quality.
Have you checked your UPS lately for runtime and or proper operation? You are, literally, the only person I have EVER heard of who has had SLA batteries last 12 YEARS in operation (or in retrospect longer than 7). I don't know how that is even possible. Cyberpower even states that they expect them to last between 3-5 years in operation.
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post #17 of 30 Old 06-22-2020, 05:42 AM
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So, I was going to grab this CP1500AVRLCD for my rs540.
But two things that concern me...first it is not a true sine wave.

What you guys do for your own projectors?
I've got an 8 year old Cyberpower that is basically the old version of that model. Batteries lasted about 6 years, changed them out a couple years ago. Never had any issues across 5+ projectors and do not believe I have the pure sine version. Spend the extra on the pure sine if you want to, but probably will make no difference.

As far as surge protection goes, you're best bet is to have an electrician check your grounds and make sure no odd ground loops or issues. I'm not talking about ground loops that cause audible hums or noise, instead I'm talking about ground loops that make surge protection fail. Those "ground lights" that turn on mean almost nothing, just means it is going "somewhere" and not directly back in a short loop, but it could still be a bad ground.

Surge protectors don't stop surges, they only help stop small overflow current jumps really, stuff that couldn't make it back to ground. Even then, how well is debatable and depends on the surge protector and type of surge, but the first line of defense is having the best grounding because that is where most of the excess voltage goes when you get a major surge. If you get a surge that is close to your house, usually the breaker will flip and the surge protector would not have done all that much besides diverting to ground, if anything at all.

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post #18 of 30 Old 06-22-2020, 05:58 AM
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APC 1000 VA Pure SineWave Back-UPS Pro Battery Backup (10 Outlets 2 USB Charging Ports)
And when you can get a UPS like above for $120, is it REALLY that much more over a stepped unit? :-)
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post #19 of 30 Old 06-22-2020, 09:29 AM
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LOL, I have a feeling your definition of " cheap" is quite a bit different than most peoples.
A decent 4k60 4:4:4 HDR 30' fiber hdmi cable can easily be found for $60 or less, a 100' one, well under $100.
I think the impression is that those mm om3 fiber extenders run closer to $1000.

And thats pure fiber for 200, not hybrid, no copper/ electrical signal in the cable for the 5v, ground, etc.

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Surge protectors don't stop surges, they only help stop small overflow current jumps really, stuff that couldn't make it back to ground. Even then, how well is debatable and depends on the surge protector and type of surge, but the first line of defense is having the best grounding because that is where most of the excess voltage goes when you get a major surge. If you get a surge that is close to your house, usually the breaker will flip and the surge protector would not have done all that much besides diverting to ground, if anything at all.
Thats why I like the old topaz line noise suppressing isolation transformers, will reduce a 6kv spike to 6mv and last for decades un like movs.
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post #20 of 30 Old 06-22-2020, 01:22 PM
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I think the impression is that those mm om3 fiber extenders run closer to $1000.

And thats pure fiber for 200, not hybrid, no copper/ electrical signal in the cable for the 5v, ground, etc.
which is totally unnecessary for a 20-30ft run. :-)
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which is totally unnecessary for a 20-30ft run. :-)
Heh, it's not about the distance its about the galvanic isolation. And it's not necessary it's just interesting. ;]
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post #22 of 30 Old 06-22-2020, 04:52 PM
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Heh, it's not about the distance its about the galvanic isolation. And it's not necessary it's just interesting. ;]
TRANSLATOR! TRANSLATOR! I need a TRANSLATOR here! I know what "isolation" is but that's about it!!! :-)
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post #23 of 30 Old 06-22-2020, 07:14 PM
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Have you checked your UPS lately for runtime and or proper operation?
Battery says 100%, run-time 120 minutes.

This is the one I have:
https://www.cyberpowersystems.com/pr...or2200pfcrt2u/
20 amp model. It's line-interactive.

I've tested the output and it is a true sinewave. No modified steps etc.

It's only been activated for 2 like hours after all those years, like 2 major outages and both times I wasn't even home so it drained fully at ~10% load.
When I've been home I've only like it run for like 5 minutes at a time, just enough to power off my projector/HTPC/Bluray/DSP's etc.

It's fairly quiet too, most of the times it's like 1dbA line-interactive mode. During blackouts it spins up and gets loud, as you'd expect and the alarm beeps.

I'd say it's activated maybe 10 times in all those years. Grid PQ here is like three 9's.

The 3-5 year rating, is for a server/work environment, with high-loads, frequent large drains, and poor grid power quality. Businesses can afford to replace the battery when the warranty is up. I'm keeping mine going until it's dead or unable to sustain a decent runtime, which by the sounds of it will be a LONG time.

I think a lot of that lifespan has to do with my SurgeX.
I used to go through $20 Walmart boxfans like crazy (like 2 per year), I plugged my last one into my SurgeX and have been running it almost 24/7/365 for 2 years now without bearing issues or anything. I don't know if this brand of boxfan is just exceptional, or if it has to do with the SurgeX.
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post #24 of 30 Old 06-23-2020, 10:11 AM
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Battery says 100%, run-time 120 minutes.

This is the one I have:
https://www.cyberpowersystems.com/pr...or2200pfcrt2u/
20 amp model. It's line-interactive.

I've tested the output and it is a true sinewave. No modified steps etc.

It's only been activated for 2 like hours after all those years, like 2 major outages and both times I wasn't even home so it drained fully at ~10% load.
When I've been home I've only like it run for like 5 minutes at a time, just enough to power off my projector/HTPC/Bluray/DSP's etc.

It's fairly quiet too, most of the times it's like 1dbA line-interactive mode. During blackouts it spins up and gets loud, as you'd expect and the alarm beeps.

I'd say it's activated maybe 10 times in all those years. Grid PQ here is like three 9's.

The 3-5 year rating, is for a server/work environment, with high-loads, frequent large drains, and poor grid power quality. Businesses can afford to replace the battery when the warranty is up. I'm keeping mine going until it's dead or unable to sustain a decent runtime, which by the sounds of it will be a LONG time.

I think a lot of that lifespan has to do with my SurgeX.
I used to go through $20 Walmart boxfans like crazy (like 2 per year), I plugged my last one into my SurgeX and have been running it almost 24/7/365 for 2 years now without bearing issues or anything. I don't know if this brand of boxfan is just exceptional, or if it has to do with the SurgeX.
12 years, smh. that's unreal...
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post #25 of 30 Old 06-23-2020, 10:16 AM
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12 years, smh. that's unreal...
You're telling me, I'm lucky to get 3 years on batteries ><
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post #26 of 30 Old 06-23-2020, 06:07 PM
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Have you checked your UPS lately for runtime and or proper operation? You are, literally, the only person I have EVER heard of who has had SLA batteries last 12 YEARS in operation (or in retrospect longer than 7). I don't know how that is even possible. Cyberpower even states that they expect them to last between 3-5 years in operation.
I have one still working fine from 2009. When the power goes out, it seems to power my devices just as long as my newer one from 2015.

Rex
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post #27 of 30 Old 06-23-2020, 07:58 PM
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You're telling me, I'm lucky to get 3 years on batteries ><
You and I need to start finding out where these guys get these super batteries! I am ECSTATIC if I get 5 years and I have fairly reliable power too.
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post #28 of 30 Old 06-23-2020, 08:40 PM
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You and I need to start finding out where these guys get these super batteries! I am ECSTATIC if I get 5 years and I have fairly reliable power too.
Southeast florida here, terrible power, daily brown/blackouts. Plus I have alot of dimmers in the house and solar panels so very noisey power as well.
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post #29 of 30 Old 06-24-2020, 07:19 AM
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I've been using one for two years with zero problems.

Current Equipment: Datasat LS10 w/ Atmos and DIRAC, ATI AT6005, Audio Control Savoy G3, Aerial Acoustics LR5's (LCR), SR3's sides, LR3's (rears),(4) RSL C34E’s (Atmos), Submersive HP, Marantz VP15s1, 123" diag 16:9 Stewart Cima Neve screen, Oppo BDP-103, Palliser Flicks Seating AC Power: Eaton whole-house surge protector at main panel, (3) 20 amp circuits, Surgex XR315 at equipment rack, Cyberpower 1400VA/900 watt, true sine wave UPS.
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post #30 of 30 Old 07-04-2020, 08:14 AM
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...
simulated sine wave devices generate a lot of higher order harmonics of the basic 60Hz frequency. Different models make different amplitudes at different multiples (3rd harmonic, 5th harmonic, 7th, etc)

For anything with a transformer or other magnetic device (such as a speaker) inside of it, true sine wave makes a huge difference, and here is the reason why - magnets are optimized around a specific operating frequency - if you get too far away from it, it stops transforming the voltage , and just creating heat. For certain things this kills the life and makes them not operate too efficiently.
I cannot emphasize the above quotes from @cjacobs strongly enough. If the units you are supplying power to from a UPS have any type of "normal" transformer in them (and most AV pHW does), then spend the little bit extra and get a good true sine-wave UPS. If the equipment is using a SMPS (switch-mode-power-supply) like most personal computers use today, then most times, you can "get-away" with deploying the hacked up sine-wave.

The switching harmonics introduced by the UPS generate huge amounts of electrical noise on the circuits which infiltrate everything plugged into them. In other words, they are polluting the entire circuit (and maybe more depending on how close you are to the main panel) with loads of harmonic electrical noise. Most consumer UPS manufacturers use electrical filters and chokes to help, but usually it minimal.

I purchased and recommended finding good true sine-wave units from Refurb-UPS over the years. I've got some APC SmartUPS (true-sine waves) Models 1200/1400/3000 (30A) which are 20+ years old, and built like tanks! I change the batts in them about 36-40 months and they keep on ticking. If you are looking today, watch for the Eatons, older APCs, and I'm sure there's a thread around here probably stating the merits of each brand.

I also agree with @BassThatHz who fronts his equipment with SurgeX. Started using SurgeX about 20+ years ago and never looked back. In fact, I've tossed anything designed around MOVs into the recycling bins and now ban any sort of MOV "surge" protector/strip from entering my home. If you are patient, you can find good, used SurgeX equipment on eBay for reasonable $ amounts. My favorites are the SX-1120RT and SEQ units b/c they usually have all of the protections, Over/Under, Surge, inrush (ICE), in one unit. Many times, the just need the green jumper added to the back control which you can pick up from Mouser. I recall helping another poster with this a few months back. The SurgeX SEQ are also great if you have multiple power amps to sequence on. It limited the in-rush current over 3 banks so you can really do the power-ons without pops anymore.

For example right now on Ebay are: -> https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...=surgex+Rx1120

Disclosure: I am not selling any of those 1120RT units listed above nor do I work for or own stock in any company mentioned.

Update 05 Jul 2020
Suggest reviewing several older threads about Surge Protection
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...ng-thread.html

Peace and have a great Holiday!
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Last edited by gattaca; 07-05-2020 at 06:03 AM.
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