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post #121 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 06:45 AM
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Falk Kuebler says:

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IMHO this all means that the HD81 in its presently announced form will be very shortlived. Apart from its PQ it is not a good HT PJ, and its manufacturing cost are not optimized. Completely unaccaptable for a company like Optoma.

When did PQ stop being the primary aspect of a projector that we're talking about? And when you throw in the high quality Gennum based scaler...

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post #122 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by rlindo View Post

Count me in as another potential customer who can't get this PJ because of the lack of lens shift.

After the flood of energetic refusals, somebody must be prepared to keep Optoma motivated, so I jump in as the lonely volunteer

If the HD81 becomes available early, then I will buy it and will take the risk to modify the builtin offset mechanically. I guess that even if lens shift is more complicated with a DLP, reducing an existing offset is not so difficult. The (for my setup) not matching long throw can be compensated with an Isco 0.8 wide angle lens, which I have by chance left.

What means "early"? Well, this is relative and depends on the alternatives in late spring. The LCOS (Ruby, maybe Cinetron) are not bright enough, so the only competition is the PD Action 1080. They apparently have rushed in a similar way to the early 1080 market, because they also use a business PJ design (their penalty seems contrast, not lens shift) and an external scaler. If the HD81 is available in late spring, I'll take it. If not, I'll possibly bite the bullet and take the somewhat overpriced Action 1080.

Waiting for next Cedia is not an option, because everything announced there will not really be available before Jan 2007, and this would overstretch my anyway somewhat limited patience. I want to see now some progress in my HT, and I cannot endure my temporary Epson for any longer than another 3..6 months

So I hope for Optoma the motivation of getting at least one customer for the HD81 is enough for not dropping the whole machine

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post #123 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by John Kotches View Post

Falk Kuebler says:
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IMHO this all means that the HD81 in its presently announced form will be very shortlived. Apart from its PQ it is not a good HT PJ, and its manufacturing cost are not optimized. Completely unaccaptable for a company like Optoma.

When did PQ stop being the primary aspect of a projector that we're talking about? And when you throw in the high quality Gennum based scaler...

I don't want to throw in the Gennum, because I have a Vantage on order. So I would anyway prefer an (rumored) H80 without scaler, but I somewhat doubt its availability.

PQ is also IMHO the primary aspect of a projector. But consider it getting a high weighting factor, with other aspects having a lower weighting, but their absence being a show stopper. That may be similar to a sports car, where racing performance is the primary aspect, but if it has only one seat or comes in the form of a Lotus Super Seven, then it simply cannot be bought by most people for practical reason.

BTW: My personal weighting would accept the HD81, as you see from my parallel post. I made my remark speculative for the average HT user's viewpoint, who doesn't want to fiddle with lens shift and the like.

At the end everything in this imperfect world is a question of weighting factors...

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post #124 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 07:25 AM
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Falk, as this is based on a buisness machine I highly doubt that this is a TIR design (the offset alone implies it not a TIR) and then it should be VERY difficult if not impossible to change the offset due to the lightpath. All DLP projectors with lens-shift use a prism (TIR design); I remember Bob Williams from Infocus once explained that you can't get around the offset without a prism. I will try if I can find his post... So even if you had the tools and skills, you would not be able to do it.

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post #125 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by drpp View Post

Falk, as this is based on a buisness machine I highly doubt that this is a TIR design (the offset alone implies it not a TIR) and then it should be VERY difficult if not impossible to change the offset due to the lightpath. All DLP projectors with lens-shift use a prism (TIR design); I remember Bob Williams from Infocus once explained that you can't get around the offset without a prism. I will try if I can find his post... So even if you had the tools and skills, you would not be able to do it.

One never learns out, as we say in Germany

Ok, my own experience is admittedly from 3LCD, and what you say suggests that the HD81 has this type of prism. Then I would be without luck.

Anyway, rude and 1080-thirsty as I am, if the HD81 gets to market early, I would borrow its EP910 business sibling for my company and open it for looking at the internals, for deciding whether I should stay brave or not

But your remark indeed increases the probability of Optoma losing their last loyal HD81 customer-wannabe

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post #126 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by kuebler View Post

I don't want to throw in the Gennum, because I have a Vantage on order. So I would anyway prefer an (rumored) H80 without scaler, but I somewhat doubt its availability.

Tom (Guitarman's) speculation about an HD80 is just that at this point, speculation. When quizzing Optoma reps (several of them) about a unit without the scaler, they all said there was not going to be a unit without a scaler. Does this mean that there won't be an HD80? No. If there is going to be one, they sure aren't admitting to it publically.

So all we have to go on is speculation from various people and a website.

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PQ is also IMHO the primary aspect of a projector. But consider it getting a high weighting factor, with other aspects having a lower weighting, but their absence being a show stopper. That may be similar to a sports car, where racing performance is the primary aspect, but if it has only one seat or comes in the form of a Lotus Super Seven, then it simply cannot be bought by most people for practical reason.

Well for those of us that don't follow sports cars, it's hard to follow your analogy

I'm not sure that 27% is as bad as many people are thinking if you're taking into account all of the considerations. Appropriate seating distance from screen, appropriate screen width for room, and considering position of viewers/listeners with respect to loudspeakers as well.

If you're really concerned with a quality experience rather than a "my screen is bigger than yours" I think the 27% will work for more installations than the initial thoughts would lend one to believe.

It certainly wouldn't work in my very height limited room (7'1") unless I lowered my screen about 6-7". This would put me at about screen centerline which wouldn't be the end of the world. Not ideal, but workable. Since my screen is electrically retractable this is a relatively easy adjustment to make.

I'm not thinking in terms of my current room though, I'm thinking in terms of my next room, which will be more along the lines of 8'6" (or about 2.3m if you prefer to think in meters).

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BTW: My personal weighting would accept the HD81, as you see from my parallel post. I made my remark speculative for the average HT user's viewpoint, who doesn't want to fiddle with lens shift and the like.

At the end everything in this imperfect world is a question of weighting factors...

Right. The thing about no lens shift, is once you get the projector perfectly locked in place, it's never going to need readjustment though

Cheers,

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post #127 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Randall Morton View Post

I think it is unusual to have someone selling projectors to be so honest as Alan. I have never suspected him of even exaggerating about one technology or the other for personal gain, he just tells it the way he sees it. So here is where a 4000:1 contrast ratio projector beats a 15000:1 contrast ratio projector. He's talking about the 3 chip Mercury.

This is good news the contrast ratio race is over, anything over 4000:1 can not be decerned by the critical viewer. If you read all of Alans posts what he likes is the overall picture quality that the Mercury has. The Mercury's bright sharp picture and the over all quality of its video processing allows one to over look its lack of contrast and resolution. This is not going to be the case with the Optoma. The Optoma will be a good lower price alternative to the Ruby with lots of brightness and enough contrast to keep any one shopping for a projector in the under $7k (street price ) range happy. With Optomas traditional discounts off of MSRP there will be nothing in its price range that can compete, at least for this year.

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post #128 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 07:52 AM
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No, what I say suggests that the HD81 is not a TIR design, so no prism, if it were it would have been a piece of cake for Optoma to change the offset or even implement lensshift right away with the EP910 lens.

I will try to find the post of Bob, If I remember correct MrWigggles suggested something comparable in the context of, was it the SP4805, when Bob chimed in and explainedt in detail why this would not work. He made it pretty clear that without prism it is a no go.

Besides a DLP without prism is more dust-prone or to put it another way, with prism you have a lot less dust problems if any. I would expect quite a few reports of dust in the HD81 due to the non TIR design alone.

BTW this is post #1000.

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post #129 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kotches View Post

If you're really concerned with a quality experience rather than a "my screen is bigger than yours" I think the 27% will work for more installations than the initial thoughts would lend one to believe.

But in this case you may want to consider, whether the Ruby is the more appropriate machine. For me the big screen has an important satisfaction factor. In a silent moment though I admittedly have to look inside myself in order to check for the "mine is bigger than your's" factor. You see, "quality" is a complex weighted composition
Quote:
Right. The thing about no lens shift, is once you get the projector perfectly locked in place, it's never going to need readjustment though

Cheers,

If the 27% should be an offset from central, then I might find a compromise, but that appears somewhat unlikely with a business-origin design.

Otherwise I would be out of luck (without modification) because I really love my High Power screen. Not only for size and brightness, but also for ambient light suppression.

So while I'm prepared to scratch the (lens shift) limits, I'm also not an easy HD81-customer-wannabe...

Cheers

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post #130 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 07:58 AM
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If there has to be a PQ robbing prism put in the path, please leave lens shift out!

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post #131 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by drpp View Post

...
BTW this is post #1000.

I hope you don't just stop posting for keeping the nice number

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post #132 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 08:03 AM
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Why is this a stop gap projector? Is it because it doesn't have lens shift? What digital projector out now is not a stop gap projector?

I would think the very large number of posters saying "I really want one, but it's out for me due to its unfortunate offset limitation" is a good example of why. The HD81 ia a bright DLP, meaning it has the larger screen potential that Ruby and other dimmer projectors lack. Yet, given its price point, it is aimed at the middle market of HT users (as represented on this forum anyway). While many can afford the $10k (or probably less), I would doubt most live in mansions with first floor HT's and 10' ceilings. Read the posts by Bob Sorel, John Kotches, Alan Gouger and see their ceiling height. I have 10' ceilings in my under-construction home - but my finished media room, while 20'W by 32' L, has 8' ceilings.

It's not specifically the lack of shift, but that the fixed offset is so darn large! By admitting the problem was known (thx for the honesty Optoma) but that they wanted to have a model ready, they are also admitting this is a "stop gap" solution with more to come to make it work better. It's not, IMO, simple evolution. It's a business decision to get a product out there with known limitations to staunch the bleeding from Ruby until they can improve it. That is why I call it stop gap and yes, there are many projectors out there that are NOT stop gap in this sense and have much longer anticipated lives with a greater potential user base.

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I know if I saw this and it said PROTOTYPE. I would probably be not as interested. We want to look at the real thing, whats available now or very soon. Just enough time to hold back a purchase from a competing manufacture.

I'm not suggesting they put a big label on it as PROTOTYPE, but rather to introduce it as a "work in progress" rather than a totally finished one. I take your point on being scared off or delayed by the use of "prototype" but I think that's what it is in reality. Do you believe that once they have a very similar version with the addition of lens shift or, at least, much less offset, that they will still produce the current one and simply add the 2nd? I don't, unless there are other significant changes/additions.

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I think this PJ will do quite well. Just about every client I deal with wants the PJ as close to the ceiling as possible and being able to place the PJ up and out of the way is great. Not that lens shift wouldn't be even better, but if it has to be fixed, Optoma probably made the right choice for the marketplace. As always, the wants of the marketplace as a whole do not necessarily remotely reflect the wants of the hobbyist.

I agree with much of that except where it seems to assume that simply wanting a "close to the ceiling" proj. solves the issue. It does (and is desirable, me included) right up until you have that lower ceiling but want the bigger screen. It just limits this apparently fine projector's market. And that is where I either disagree or misunderstand your last distinction.

I assume you mean the "hobbyists" (AVS) vs. Joe Normal (marketplace). But I would think even Joe Normal, who is about to spend $10k will want the "big screen experience" or he wouldn't be spending $10k. (Joe Normal is usually spending less). When he asks about that big Firehawk he saw and the dealer is forced to discuss his ceiling height.... Personally, I don't agree that the wants of the "marketplace" in this situation "do not remotely reflect" the hobbyist. This isn't about seeing rainbows or slight misconvergance, that the less-informed marketplace probably wouldn't notice. This is about - will it fit in my room and fill my nice large screen. I think the interests are far more similar in this case than you suggest.

Ray
"You cannot reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place." -Jonathan Swift
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post #133 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 08:19 AM
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I would think the very large number of posters saying "I really want one, but it's out for me due to its unfortunate offset limitation" is a good example of why. The HD81 ia a bright DLP, meaning it has the larger screen potential that Ruby and other dimmer projectors lack. Yet, given its price point, it is aimed at the middle market of HT users (as represented on this forum anyway). While many can afford the $10k (or probably less), I would doubt most live in mansions with first floor HT's and 10' ceilings. Read the posts by Bob Sorel, John Kotches, Alan Gouger and see their ceiling height. I have 10' ceilings in my under-construction home - but my finished media room, while 20'W by 32' L, has 8' ceilings.

If things go as planned, I will have about 8'6" for the room that whatever FP that I purchase lands in. Whether that's a Ruby, an HD81 or a still unnamed projector I can't say.

I have the luxury of not having to make my purchase immediately. I am taking a "wait and see" approach for the next several months, realistically until about the May or June timeframe.

Regards,

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post #134 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Al Sherwood View Post

Clever enough to work too! does this address the screen gain issue raised?

Might just be an option, because I have a real hard time bringing myself to put money down for a 720 when a 1080 unit will soon be available.

I'm in the same boat as you, although my theater will be finished in late March, long before the H81 will be ready. I'll probably wind up buying an Epson 550 to hold me over until some real-world H81 users report in... I can always eBay the 550!
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post #135 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by QQQ View Post

Feedback is good but in this instance all I can say is what a fabulous welcome for TzungILin (sarcasm). Especially since he didn't defend the lack of lens shift and honestly stated that there was a rush to get this to market. FWIW, I think this PJ will do quite well. Just about every client I deal with wants the PJ as close to the ceiling as possible and being able to place the PJ up and out of the way is great. Not that lens shift wouldn't be even better, but if it has to be fixed, Optoma probably made the right choice for the marketplace. As always, the wants of the marketplace as a whole do not necessarily remotely reflect the wants of the hobbyist.

I agree. People are being a little preoccupied on this one aspect.

Not to get anyone started on something else but the actual throw ratio seems more problematic. We are talking 1080p here and most viewers are going to want to be in the 1.0 to 1.4 screen widths away. With the min throw 1.8, we are talking about a projector that is likely going to need to be behind your back wall in some situations.

The projector is highly praised in everything else. I wish we could concentrate on the everything else. Give Tzung some warm-fuzzies

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post #136 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 08:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mdputnam View Post

This is good news the contrast ratio race is over, anything over 4000:1 can not be decerned by the critical viewer. If you read all of Alans posts what he likes is the overall picture quality that the Mercury has. The Mercury's bright sharp picture and the over all quality of its video processing allows one to over look its lack of contrast and resolution. This is not going to be the case with the Optoma. The Optoma will be a good lower price alternative to the Ruby with lots of brightness and enough contrast to keep any one shopping for a projector in the under $7k (street price ) range happy. With Optomas traditional discounts off of MSRP there will be nothing in its price range that can compete, at least for this year.

Have you compared the Ruby and the HD81? I think I have read most of Alan's posts, at least in this forum. I seem to remember one where he says the blacks on the DLP & the Ruby were very close and that he could discern very little difference in C/R between the two. Unless you have the black cave theater, you will never see 15000:1 C/R with the Ruby. I don't have a lot of experience comparing myself(I think few do) but I have read a lot of what others here have said. The difference between 4K:1 and 15K:1 is not as much as you would think. Unless you have the ability to A:B the projectors on a split screen in a black cave most would probably not see the difference.
I would guess that a fade to black may be the point where the higher contrast ratio may be more obvious.
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post #137 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWigggles View Post

I agree. People are being a little preoccupied on this one aspect.

Not to get anyone started on something else but the actual throw ratio seems more problematic. We are talking 1080p here and most viewers are going to want to be in the 1.0 to 1.4 screen widths away. With the min throw 1.8, we are talking about a projector that is likely going to need to be behind your back wall in some situations.

The projector is highly praised in everything else. I wish we could concentrate on the everything else. Give Tzung some warm-fuzzies

-Mr. Wigggles

Lovely. And to think I was one of the few who will have a room that will work with the fixed offset, only to find that the throw ratio probably won't!
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post #138 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall Morton View Post

Have you compared the Ruby and the HD81? I think I have read most of Alan's posts, at least in this forum. I seem to remember one where he says the blacks on the DLP & the Ruby were very close and that he could discern very little difference in C/R between the two. Unless you have the black cave theater, you will never see 15000:1 C/R with the Ruby. I don't have a lot of experience comparing myself(I think few do) but I have read a lot of what others here have said. The difference between 4K:1 and 15K:1 is not as much as you would think. Unless you have the ability to A:B the projectors on a split screen in a black cave most would probably not see the difference.
I would guess that a fade to black may be the point where the higher contrast ratio may be more obvious.

Well if you read gregr's review of the Ruby there is a significant difference between the iris on ( ~5,200:1) and iris auto (~17,000:1). The differences will be seen in dark scenes ( U517, Dark City, ... )

A lot of us would certainly like the option of an irised HD81 with say 8K:1 to 10K:1 CR!
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post #139 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 09:32 AM
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The Optoma will be bright with high real time contrast with pop. No haze, just high brightness and deep blacks.

The motorized Iris with stops will give you the option to taylor the contrast for each different setup, screen gain etc.

Wing says later Optoma will make a Auto/Iris. Marketing shows people like it.

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post #140 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

A lot of us would certainly like the option of an irised HD81 with say 8K:1 to 10K:1 CR!

Just to make it clear we want a calibrated 8k:1 to 10k:1 not a marketing number

Human perception is not a direct consequence of reality, but rather an act of imagination. - Michael Faraday
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post #141 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 09:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

Well if you read gregr's review of the Ruby there is a significant difference between the iris on ( ~5,200:1) and iris auto (~17,000:1). The differences will be seen in dark scenes ( U517, Dark City, ... )

A lot of us would certainly like the option of an irised HD81 with say 8K:1 to 10K:1 CR!

I understand the higher contrast ratio will look better in the optimum viewing environment. I just think that few have that environment. I don't. I know I prefer a bright picture and I also know that in my room I get light back to the screen which washes out some of the higher cr. I also would like the adjustable iris, but I have a feeling that I would use it more towards the open end than the closed. I would venture to guess that Greg Rogers was viewing under optimum conditions. The Ruby is also a dim projector(with a dynamic iris) compared to the HD81 and therefore less light would be reflected back to the screen.

If almost no light were being reflected back onto the screen, then would a stepped down iris still give a better CR than a full open iris(not talking about a dynamic iris)? I've never used a projector with an adjustable iris but I think it would be fun to experiment with.
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post #142 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 09:50 AM
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So, after reading the (1000's of) Ruby posts, and following this thread, am I correct to conclude that for a 12' wide 'scope screen:
a) rule out Ruby for brightness issues, at least with a mid-life bulb
b) rule out H81 as it would put the bottom of the screen frame basically on the floor with my 8' theater ceiling, unless I go with MrWigggles screen tilt
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post #143 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by digital_dilemma View Post

Regarding the Optoma rep not getting back on the forum, lately. #1 - He just went through CES. Just a little time consuming and tiring, I can promise you from my experience. Also, he's soon going to be gathering together any product bashing on this (and other) forums and then he'll go to a higher up in engineering/design/research/product development and get "company responses" to submit for approval. Only once those responses are approved will he convey those responses to this group. The hierarchy in these companies require it. So don't get down on him, just be patient. The replies will come, eventually.

Also, according to this
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Originally Posted by TzungILin View Post

I work for Coretronic, the DLP OEM manufacture for many brand names. Optoma is just one OEM customer.

from here, TzungILin is (or at least was last October) not directly representing Optoma. Obviously this could further constrain what he can say and when.

Brent
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post #144 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 10:11 AM
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Quote:


TzungILin is (or at least was last October) not directly representing Optoma. Obviously this could further constrain what he can say and when.

Tzung-I Lin does work for Optoma. He gave me his business card at CES.
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post #145 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 10:17 AM
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3no,

When you say 12' 'cope, you don't mean curved do you just 2.35:1? Anyway your room is going to need to be about 23' deep. I take it that is not a problem. Also, how do you plan to display some movies in 'scope format and then others in 16:9 format? The zoom range on the H81 is not large enough to do that (you would need 1.33:1 min and the HD81 is only 1.22:1). If you were thinking about an anamorphic lens, let us know.

To answer b), with such a long throw, it won't take many degrees of tilt to get the image off the floor. 3 degrees would give you a foot and at that point the top of your screen would then be touching the roof - your image is almost 7 feet (if you aren't using an anamorphic).

Unless you really need a 12' wide screen, I don't recomend it. You will more than likely need a perfed screen because audio localization is likely to be tough with the center channel above or below. This throws out many high gain screens as options

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post #146 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by MrWigggles View Post

Unless you really need a 12' wide screen, I don't recomend it. You will more than likely need a perfed screen because audio localization is likely to be tough with the center channel above or below. This throws out many high gain screens as options

-Mr. Wigggles

I want to throw in a different opinion: I use a 12ft screen and have the center (Martin Logan Theater i) at the bottom. No problem with localization. Never would I use a perfed screen (actually have a High Power).

But everything is subjective...

Falk Kuebler
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post #147 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 10:33 AM
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A 12' foot scope screen is 61" tall. 16.5" for the offset. Min. maybe 4" (best case) for mount. Top of viewable screen area would need to be 20.5" say 21" from ceiling. 21"+61"=82". Bottom of screen would be 14" from floor in an 8' high room. Certainly reasonable, and could go higher very easily with small tilt. It's not far as is from being just about right anyway (obviously without knowing other room parameters).

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post #148 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by stopdog View Post

Tzung-I Lin does work for Optoma. He gave me his business card at CES.

I also hope that his superiors don't view the criticism of their product too strongly. People aren't dissapointed in the product per se. Many, but definitely not all, are simply trying to figure out how to get it in their room.

And to make things abudantly clear to those who might struggle comprehending our conjecture, sarcasm, and various ramblings:

We like the HD81. We like Tzung.

We hope he can continue to contribute. Ultimately it helps Optoma's products and their image.

-Mr. Wigggles

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post #149 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by dfrey View Post

A 12' foot scope screen is 61" tall. 16.5" for the offset. Min. maybe 4" (best case) for mount. Top of viewable screen area would need to be 20.5" say 21" from ceiling. 21"+61"=82". Bottom of screen would be 14" from floor in an 8' high room. Certainly reasonable, and could go higher very easily with small tilt. It's not far as is from being just about right anyway (obviously without knowing other room parameters).

David

His screen might be 'scope but that doesn't mean the projector's image is 'scope. At 12 feet wide, the image IS 81" tall and thus the offset is about 22".

If he is using an ISCO lens then things are a little different. Let's let 3no respond with more details.

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post #150 of 4830 Old 01-10-2006, 10:49 AM
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Spparently Optoma is trying to keep costs down and no lens shift helps in this regard. Everything helps - a ittle here, a little there, and next thing you know margins are not as impacted due to the new competitive pricing structure.

However my point is that if Optoma saves $x per unit by not having a lens shift, but losses a fairly significant amount of customers (myself included) because they simply cannot fit it into their room, then in the long run this cost cutting decision will hurt their sales and profits much more. In other words - if they did have a lens shift and it cost them $x more to make but their sales increased y%, my guess it that they'd come out far ahead that way.

The reason I am expressing this is because I believe the HD81 really will put out a tremendous projector and its one I would be very interested in. So hopefully all this lobbying by those that want the lens shift will be heard and they will add it.

BTW, it may have already been said, but in addition to no lens shift preventing some customers from fitting it in - it completely destroys the gain for those with high power screens. In fact you simply could not use this pj with a high power screen and a ceiling mount - the gain would actually be less than 1.0 that way. So no lens shift is a show stopper now for two categorizes of customers.

In a day and age where lens shift is a standard feature - even to the point of many pjs including the Ruby that now also offer horizontal shift - no lens shift on the H81 is a big step backwards IMO. I hope they do something about it.
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