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post #31 of 5193 Old 12-20-2007, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

i can confirm that the w 5000 not take the 24p signal
from the toshiba xe1 hd dvd player.
it displays it all the time in 60p.

i not understand toshiba why they not make that simple fix and add
like the ps3 a force 24p mode.
"""unbelievably"""
a big joke.

A lot of people are asking for this. It is needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Yes, they do. They have to trade off how agressive they are with brightness compression it can cause, but are definitely compensating for the iris closing down to some degree. If a projector doesn't do dual modulation (adjust the gamma as the iris closes) then they don't have to worry about brightness compression, but then they have to worry about causing flickering type effects and a dynamic iris seems like mostly a waste without the gamma adjustment, to me. It would give a deeper blackout (absolute black), but wouldn't increase the simultaneous CR in darker images at all compared to just having the iris shut down. And objects that are supposed to be 1/4th as bright as reference white would be way dimmer than that when the iris closes down. I haven't measured any of the new Sonys for this, but suspect that that don't totally compensate for the iris closing down, so instead of 1/4th as bright they might be 1/6th as bright (just using an example), but without dual modulation they would be about 1/12th as bright as reference white, if the iris is shutting white down by 3x.

Basically, other than adjustments to try to avoid too much brightness compression, when the iris shuts down by 3x, items that should be 1/4th as bright as white should be gamma corrected up 3x to compensate for the down 3x from the iris, arriving back at 1/4th of reference white, but with an absolute black level that is 3 times as dark (so 3x the contrast ratio between that item at 1/4th of reference white, and absolute black). Gets a little more complicated with washout effects characterized best by ANSI CR, but the general idea is that 1/3 * 3/1 = 1. Or dual modulation: Increase one by the same ratio the other is decreasing it, to get back where you started for that one item. Of course, absolute black shouldn't be gamma corrected, just things encoded above absolute black.

--Darin

Thank you!!
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post #32 of 5193 Old 12-20-2007, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

i like to do some cr. measurments but can it be true that the new test hd dvd
from joe kane not have a 100% black full frame test pattern and
a 100% white to measure on off cr.
may becaue i am sick i can not find them but if that is true this is
a big joke.

I can't verify this until I get home, but the HD-DVD DVE manual show these only available under the 720P test patterns, not 1080P. They are in a section labeled Uniformity.
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post #33 of 5193 Old 12-20-2007, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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if my doctor know what i am doing he kills me

here we go.

i measured the cr. with a high end pioneer dvd player 868 use
a test dvd and upconvert it to 1920x1080 50i into the pr. via hdmi.

i found that there is a good preset call "kino" in germany means cinema
and there the colors are good.
light out there is about 8% less than my adjustements but i use it for the
test.

the w 5000 have a inside iris and a secound one that is adaptive
depends on how bright or dim the picture is it open up or close it.
like the sony vw 60 but i dont know and thats to deep inside for me
if this is also coupling with adaptive gamma as the sony did.


iris full open no adaptive iris full light 966:1 cr.
iris full close no adaptive iris full light 1102:1 cr.
iris full open adaptiv iris on full light 4200:1 cr.
iris full close adaptive iris on fulll light 5418:1 cr.

all numbers are with the max. short position from the zoom lens so
you can expect a little bit better numbers in long throw but not
much as the range from the optic is very very small.
my guess is 5-8% better max. but i will not measure it again.

ansi cr. is 420:1 with max light out and 450:1 with adaptive iris on
and inside iris close max.

i saw about 40 min. of differnet movie clips and the adaptive iris works fine.
i can not complain about how the work.

seams the fix iris that you can open and close in 19 steps have almost no
impact in cr.
its more or leess a good way to decrease the light out and a much better
way as use a nd filter in front of the optic that kills 30% ansi cr.

if i would use this pr. as my home cinema pr. i will always turn the
adaptive iris on and open up the manual iris to get max light out.


this pr. is not a perfect pr.

you can find one that have a better optic
one with a little bit better color
and so on BUT this pr. is for the price you have to pay a very good deal and
if you can find someone that color tune this pr. you will have
a nice pr. with more light than most other pr.offer.

and it is a nice slide pr.replacement and 3d user should take a look
if they are search for such digital pr. to go away from 35mm slides
that looks very very yellow on a slide pr.
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post #34 of 5193 Old 12-20-2007, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f300v10 View Post

I can't verify this until I get home, but the HD-DVD DVE manual show these only available under the 720P test patterns, not 1080P. They are in a section labeled Uniformity.

yes i found it also in 720 but i like to have it in 1920x1080!

i not like to create a new user bank for color brightness contrast and
all the other tings again just because some one forgot to
put that BASE test pattern in the 1920x1080 format
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post #35 of 5193 Old 12-20-2007, 01:29 PM
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unishape technology is thurs starting to do wonders to DLP projectors:
BENQ W5000 W20000 (the 8720 only outputed 340ansi lumens)
SIM2 D80E 380 3000
the new MARANTZ i suppose too (twice as bright as its predessors who were very dim)

2 units will arrive tomorrow i hope to have time this weekend to judge brigthness

on off of that level is good enough for a cinemascope screen (no black bars).
when you see a 3DLP with 15000ansi in a digital theater and only 2500:1 on off no one complains: no blacks bars to annoy

people love bright projectors: when you compare 2 models and one is twice as bright, guess which one people prefer ?.....
people are ACUSTOMED to punchy plasma and CRT tvs...
that's one reason of the HUGE success of the JVC HD1: brigthness, punch and on off contrast and it's good SONY made the VW60 brighter than the VW50 too.
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post #36 of 5193 Old 12-20-2007, 01:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenous View Post

Thank you for testing it.

Which Sony player did you use ?

When you set the PS3 to 24p, it is forced output.

sony bd bdp s1e

ps3 yes it forced 24p.
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post #37 of 5193 Old 12-20-2007, 03:00 PM
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The brightness is good but the native contrast is POOR. 1000:1 native contrast is old style lcd class performance. I was expecting at least 2000+:1 native contrast. You almost wonder if the projector is broken.

Mattias Ohlson
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post #38 of 5193 Old 12-21-2007, 05:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

The brightness is good but the native contrast is POOR. 1000:1 native contrast is old style lcd class performance. I was expecting at least 2000+:1 native contrast. You almost wonder if the projector is broken.


no the pr. is ok not brocken.

may that is the reason why this pr. have about 50% more light out
than all other pr. in that price range.

i am sure benq design it that way and like it that way.
the say ok with the new auto iris we can get about 5000:1 cr. and
this is enough.
so they can open everything up and get more light.

someone post it already the people like bright pr.

and dont forgeth my numbers are always very conservative.
some net pages always found a lot more

yes the no. not looks nice but i can tell you the picture
with the auto iris on look good.
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post #39 of 5193 Old 12-21-2007, 08:21 AM
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So i did further investigation today regarding the 24p issues the W5000 is having.

I tested with PS3, HD-XE1 (XA2) and Panasonic DMP-BD30.

None of the three was able to output 24p when connected to the W5000.

Only the PS3 when set to forced mode would deliver 24p which the W5000 would recognise.

So there is definitly something wrong with the EDID table of the Benq.

HD-EP35 & PS3 & (soon to be) Regionfree Oppo BD-93. 148 : 481
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post #40 of 5193 Old 12-21-2007, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f300v10 View Post

I think you are misinterpreting this. The W5000 has 2 irises. One is the dynamic iris, the other is user controllable. Wolfgangs measurements are with the DI on and manual iris full open. Thus 1000 lumens are available for 100 IRE. This is unlike the W9000/10000 where if you use the manual iris to improve CR, you don't have 1000 lumens available. Looking at Jason's AVS review of the W10000, he measured a CR of 2845:1 but at only 286 lumens. Yes that is a true native CR, but with 1/4 the light output Wolfgang measured. If the manual iris on the W5000 was stopped down to give a similar peak output, I bet the measured (dynamic) CR will exceed 4500:1. I don't really care what the 'native' cr of the W5000 is, the fact that it uses DI (if well implemented) is a plus.

I am not misinterpreting Wolfgang's measurements. See his most recent measurements. The native contrast of this thing stinks! Either that or Olson is right and this particular PJ is defective.

My assumptions were based on simple math. Let's presume the PJ had 1,000 lumens with the iris full open, and the DI is capable of two F-stops of light reduction (minimum light output 1/4 of maximum). If the iris served only to dim the PJ and did not improve native contrast one would expect a 4x improvement in CR from the DI, meaning a 4,500:1 DI contrast figure equates to only 1,125:1 native. If we use Kuebler's numbers for his W9000, still assuming the iris serves only to dim the PJ, we would expect 2,500x4 = 10,000:1 Dynamic CR.

Now, with DLP we expect the native contrast to improve with reduced light output, so we should expect MORE increase in contrast from DI than would be gained from simply dynamically adjusting the PJ's brightness. Again, using Kuebler's numbers we would expect a further 1.8x improvement in contrast from the iris. So a W9000 with the addition of a DI should be more like 2,500 x7.2 = 18,000:1 Dynamic contrast.

The results are disappointing indeed. Hopefully Wolfgang has an unrepresentative unit and/or the w20000 is MUCH better.

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post #41 of 5193 Old 12-21-2007, 08:49 AM
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W.Mayer
I understand if Benq has done as you explaing
1 Design for brightness
2 Dynamic iris and DynamicBlack
The combination giving good light output and good contrast.
It is just that I was expecting contrast numbers along those for Infocus IN82 and IN81 and they have brightness and 2000:1.
I take it I should not look so much at the numbers. When you say it looks pretty good I know that is credible, thanks.

Mattias Ohlson
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post #42 of 5193 Old 12-21-2007, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpshumway View Post

I am not misinterpreting Wolfgang's measurements. See his most recent measurements. The native contrast of this thing stinks! Either that or Olson is right and this particular PJ is defective.

My assumptions were based on simple math. Let's presume the PJ had 1,000 lumens with the iris full open, and the DI is capable of two F-stops of light reduction (minimum light output 1/4 of maximum). If the iris served only to dim the PJ and did not improve native contrast one would expect a 4x improvement in CR from the DI, meaning a 4,500:1 DI contrast figure equates to only 1,125:1 native. If we use Kuebler's numbers for his W9000, still assuming the iris serves only to dim the PJ, we would expect 2,500x4 = 10,000:1 Dynamic CR.

Now, with DLP we expect the native contrast to improve with reduced light output, so we should expect MORE increase in contrast from DI than would be gained from simply dynamically adjusting the PJ's brightness. Again, using Kuebler's numbers we would expect a further 1.8x improvement in contrast from the iris. So a W9000 with the addition of a DI should be more like 2,500 x7.2 = 18,000:1 Dynamic contrast.

The results are disappointing indeed. Hopefully Wolfgang has an unrepresentative unit and/or the w20000 is MUCH better.

Lets look at Jason's W10000 numbers for native CR and leave the DI out of the equation. Keep in mind this is DC3 and should have better native CR than the W5000.

On/Off Contrast (IRIS Full open /250watt Lamp Mode): ~1317:1
On/Off Contrast (IRIS Full closed/250watt Lamp Mode): ~3900:1

Brightness (IRIS Full open/250watt Lamp Mode): 686 lumens
Brightness (IRIS Full closed/250watt Lamp Mode): 193 lumens

So the full open CR of the W10000 is 34% better than the W5000 (1300/970) but with 30% lower lumens (~ 686/1000). The CR difference is expected as the W10000 is DC3 and the W5000 is DC2 at best.

It does appear that stopping down the manual iris on the W5000 has much less effect on native CR than on the W10000. That is probably due to a difference in light path location between the 2 projectors. Just statically blocking light cannot be assumed to have a positive effect on CR.

Yes it would be nice if the numbers were even better, that can be said about any projector. But a 'real world' CR of 4500+ and 1000 lumens from a single chip DLP for under $3000 is excellent.
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post #43 of 5193 Old 12-21-2007, 11:07 AM
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Those native contrast numbers on new DlP do not seem reasonable but they could of put a baffle in the wrong place and let too much light scatter through. That surprises me though because I went to graduate school with the Taiwanese engineers and they are very good and know how to use all the scatter programs to analyze a system before it goes into production.

the 1000 lumen output is that the D65 calibrated number? The VIDI technology looks like it has the same effect on Brightness as the Unishape and changes the rules of the game.

Does anyone know the difference between the 5000 and the 20000
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post #44 of 5193 Old 12-21-2007, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlang46 View Post

Does anyone know the difference between the 5000 and the 20000

As far as I know DC2-W5000 & DC3-W20000 & going to DC4 by mid 2008. Is it me or is BenQ a bit on the secretive side?
On another note; the feature list at BenQ Global mentions Full 4:4:4 Color Sampling for both W5000/W20000. Doesn't that require HDMI 1.3?

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post #45 of 5193 Old 12-21-2007, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f300v10 View Post

So the full open CR of the W10000 is 34% better than the W5000 (1300/970) but with 30% lower lumens (~ 686/1000). The CR difference is expected as the W10000 is DC3 and the W5000 is DC2 at best.

It does appear that stopping down the manual iris on the W5000 has much less effect on native CR than on the W10000. That is probably due to a difference in light path location between the 2 projectors. Just statically blocking light cannot be assumed to have a positive effect on CR.

Yes it would be nice if the numbers were even better, that can be said about any projector. But a 'real world' CR of 4500+ and 1000 lumens from a single chip DLP for under $3000 is excellent.

To a certain extent we're both comparing apples to to oranges as the numbers were generated by different people, but It's still pretty disappointing performance.

In the real world 4500:1 dynamic is not the same as 4500:1 native. I've seen quite a few DI equipped LCDs with 1000:1 native contrast which I would not consider competitive with mid range DLP or LcOS. At the price point Benq is asking, they're basically at the bottom of 1080p DLP, so the projector still represents a decent value given it's higher fill factor and ANSI contrast compared to LCD. The extra brightness is a selling point for those with very large screens or ambient light, but given these numbers, I wouldn't expect it to compete on image quality with a Sony VW60.

The iris open performance of the w5000 engine appears to be quite similar to the w10000 as you point out. It's the Iris closed performance which suffers, and dramatically so. The improvement in brightness might be attributed to the VIDI technology, although I don't know enough about it to know how much to expect.

It looks like Benq implemented a very inefficient iris system on the w5000. For DLP we should be able to assume that reducing brightness statically via iris will increase CR. The Sharp 20k trades 55% of it's brightness for a 240% improvement in CR going from high brightness to high contrast mode according to Tom Huffman. I realize the Benq projectors (or anybody else for that matter) are not as good as the Sharp, but I don't have the time to dig up numbers on them right now.

Here's hoping the w20000 is substantially better in this regard. I would expect it to compete directly with the Sony VW60 on price, but if it's performance is only incrementally better than the w5000 as the w10000 is relative to the w9000, it won't be a very good value.

I for one hope the naming convention means something and the w20000 is indeed better than the w10000, as the w5000 appears to be only on par with the w9000. It's better in some areas, but not nearly as good in others.

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post #46 of 5193 Old 12-21-2007, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpshumway View Post

If we use Kuebler's numbers for his W9000,...

Because my numbers had been cited, I took an opportunity today to measure my W9000 again:

At full lamp (250w), 200 lamp hours, picture set to "warm" (resulting in app. 6'800K from my memory, but I didn't measure that again), I found:
a) iris fully open: 816 lumens center (yielding app. 700 lumens weighting some drop off at the right), 1'186:1 on/off
b) iris fully closed: 195 lumens center, 3'565:1 on/off

That's pretty much inline with what Jason measured on the W10000. Sorry for my previous misinformation (2'500:1 resp. 4'500:1 CR). I don't remember how I had got those numbers then.

Usually I run the W9000 with app. 70% brightness (from slight iris closing). So from my numbers I can easily understand why I am not really satisfied with the black level.

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post #47 of 5193 Old 12-21-2007, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Thanks for the info. I'm wondering if the dynamic iris for this machine also does gamma correction as the iris closes, or if it just dims the image. I probably won't be getting to see this projector for a while, but it would be great if somebody could test this.
--Darin

darin

i look a little bit inside and i found some very strange things!

the dynamic black function when you switch it to on and you have a dark image it close the adaptive iris.
thats normaly and you can see how the iris works very easi in the optic.

now without a measurment instrument i saw that parts of that black picture
gets more bright and at the same time the iris close so it should be opposte.

i try then different seq. bright one medium bright one and dark one
and all the time i get the same result.

dynamic black raise the lumens and at the same time the adaptive iris
close more.
i try also a almost 100% full withe picture(secound test pattern on each bd
from sony picture)
and with this picture there is no differnece at all there.

but in 99% of a movie its a big difference.

the only explanation is that they bost and dimm the lamp because
gamma cant do that.

on casino rojal on a night shot chaper 5 (i belief) i found on the face
from the woman 67 lux without db (iris 100% open)with db i measure 107 lux
(iris about 30% open) and the light goes up!!!!

even in moderate bright daylight seq. i found more lumen with db on
as with db off.

thats may why they need very new uhp lamps "unishape" to do this.

its very different to the way sony did it and i guess that with
ti dynamic black we see almost no bugs because they may not change
gamma at all.
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post #48 of 5193 Old 12-22-2007, 08:34 AM
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As a ex-owner of a European W 9000, and after several months of use and at least two D65 complete calibrations with a 15 ft lamberts on a 106" video spectra (gain 1.5) screen. Always with the Iris fully closed and lamp in High Mode (250w)

If you enter in the service menu, and enhace the general contrast value approx. 20% until 58-59, you can obtain a very brigthness image, with an excellente picture quality, with a perfectly saturated primaries and secondaries, perfectly matched gamma curves for each color, a good black level, and a picture sarphnes that any other projection technology can achieve.

For this reason, I have sold mi projector last week, to buy the new W5000, that in Spain has a terrific MSRP of 1999 euros, and a street price 200 euros below.

Probably next week I´ll can test the new machine. I think that is better to leave the manual Iris, close to the completely closed position, turn On the DI and enhace the contrast general value sligthly, to obtain a very contrasted image with solid black levels and a very good white peak.

The real numbers and diagrams for this combination in the firsts week of the new year.

Un saludo, Javier G.
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post #49 of 5193 Old 12-22-2007, 09:10 AM
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Hi,

hard to believe ... In Germany the W5000 costs 3499,- EURO. Guess I have to move to Spain

cheers Mike
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post #50 of 5193 Old 12-22-2007, 09:16 AM
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Hola Javier,

good to hear that. Could you tell me where to buy this baby online in Spain?
I am looking forward to reading your review.

Un saludo

P.S. Mike there are vendors in Germany selling it at a far lower price
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Originally Posted by Nima View Post

Hola Javier,

good to hear that. Could you tell me where to buy this baby online in Spain?
I am looking forward to reading your review.

Un saludo

P.S. Mike there are vendors in Germany selling it at a far lower price

Hi, I know its one company in Germany. I'm gonna take a look at the BenQ next week. But it's only one company and not the MSRP You also have to trade in your old model to get the price. Without a trade in they want 2800,- at least thats the offer I got.
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post #52 of 5193 Old 12-22-2007, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nima View Post

Hola Javier,

good to hear that. Could you tell me where to buy this baby online in Spain?
I am looking forward to reading your review.

Un saludo

Here, you have a link http://www.supersonido.es/productos/...&idCategoria=9
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post #53 of 5193 Old 12-22-2007, 11:09 AM - Thread Starter
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i got today the info that this spain price match around with
the platin card offer from a germany dealer
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post #54 of 5193 Old 12-22-2007, 11:38 AM
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Mr Mayer,

could you try the suggested settings by Javier?

Danke
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post #55 of 5193 Old 12-22-2007, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
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than i need fast the way to go to the service menu because
this pr. i a present for christmas for someone
and i just will have him till tomorror.

but i doubt you can compare the units because the w 5000 have
somthing very new.
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post #56 of 5193 Old 12-22-2007, 12:09 PM
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To enter in the service menu try the sequence that works with W9000.

Menu> Up> Down> Up> Down> Up> Down

To enter in the ISF Menu, you could try

ISF Night> Down> Up

Un saludo, Javier G.
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post #57 of 5193 Old 12-22-2007, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javierg View Post

To enter in the service menu try the sequence that works with W9000.

Menu> Up> Down> Up> Down> Up> Down

You forgot the last button, actually it's:
Menu> Up> Down> Up> Down> Up> Down> Menu

Falk Kuebler
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post #58 of 5193 Old 12-22-2007, 12:19 PM
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Sorry for the mistake. I´m on Christmas Holydays and ....

Un saludo, Javier G.
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post #59 of 5193 Old 12-22-2007, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuebler View Post

Because my numbers had been cited, I took an opportunity today to measure my W9000 again:

At full lamp (250w), 200 lamp hours, picture set to "warm" (resulting in app. 6'800K from my memory, but I didn't measure that again), I found:
a) iris fully open: 816 lumens center (yielding app. 700 lumens weighting some drop off at the right), 1'186:1 on/off
b) iris fully closed: 195 lumens center, 3'565:1 on/off

That's pretty much inline with what Jason measured on the W10000. Sorry for my previous misinformation (2'500:1 resp. 4'500:1 CR). I don't remember how I had got those numbers then.


Usually I run the W9000 with app. 70% brightness (from slight iris closing). So from my numbers I can easily understand why I am not really satisfied with the black level.

Thanks for the update, Falk.

So, using your latest numbers the w9000 trades 76% of it's lumens for a 200% improvement in contrast when going from iris open to iris closed. Wolfgang hasn't shared brightness numbers, so we can't compare to his w5000 directly, but given native contrast only improves by 14% from iris open to iris closed, I'd bet the lumens/contrast trade-off is very poor.

What's so interesting to me about your w9000 is it seems quite bright. Given you've got 200 hours on your bulb, it seems just as bright as Wolfgang's w5000 if we assume it lost 20% of it's brightness in the first 200 hours.

Wolfgang - do you have brightness numbers you could share?

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post #60 of 5193 Old 12-22-2007, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpshumway View Post

What's so interesting to me about your w9000 is it seems quite bright. Given you've got 200 hours on your bulb, it seems just as bright as Wolfgang's w5000 if we assume it lost 20% of it's brightness in the first 200 hours.

Yes it's indeed reasonably bright, but I doubt it was really 25% brighter at the beginning. I use the PJ only for relatively long (2..4 hours) continuous viewing sessions, thus avoiding the strain on the bulb caused by too many shut offs.

Falk Kuebler
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