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post #1 of 46 Old 06-09-2013, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi,
Maybe someone can help me. I want to build a homemade hdtv Antenna. I live in Willimantic,ct and right now I have Cable Tv witch give me stations but cost to much and want free tv. I want to put Vhf on my Antenna too. I have channels that are 30 miles to 120 miles. Do you have a Homemade HDTV Antenna? If so how far does your Antenna pick up VHF from? What kind of parts or things should I use to make my HDTV Antenna? I want to use the same kind of parts or things that Muldoon use to build his antenna here http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=7924.0 and was wondering what kind of part he used? I want to make my VHF like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IN-Odk5Mr4&feature=fvsr


What length would the aluminum tubing have to be to pick up the different vhf channels in my area from different miles? Here is a link of channels in my area http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dc08d8a0bbd46f7 . Also can the 10 element HDTV Antenna that I am planning on building on one board. Will it pick up farther away side by side or will it pick up farther away on big board? I am planning on putting a reflector on the one big board. Thank you very much for any help you can give me. Also here are my VHF Channels. Email me back.




WCVB Channel: 5 (RF 20) 5.1 ABC Distance: 65.4 miles
433 meters above sea level
Effective Power: 625 kW

WGBH Channel: 2 (RF 19) 2.1 PBS Distance: 65.4miles
417 meters above sea level
Effective Power: 700 kW


WHDH Channel: 7 (RF 42) 7.1 NBC Distance: 66.3 miles
331 meters above sea level
Effective Power: 1000 kW


WBZ Channel: 4 (RF 30) 4.1 CBS Distance: 65.4 miles
434 meters above sea level
Effective Power: 825 kW


WFSB Channel: 3 (RF 33) 3.1 CBS Distance: 31 miles
375 meters above sea level
Effective Power: 692 kW

Thanks,
Varian
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post #2 of 46 Old 06-09-2013, 05:29 PM
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None of the channels you listed are VHF.
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post #3 of 46 Old 06-09-2013, 06:04 PM
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Those aren't your VHF stations, their VIRTUAL channel numbers are between 2 and 13, but their BROADCAST channel numbers are indicated by the "RFxx" numbers....the same as the "REAL" channel numbers (9, 10 & 11) in your TVFool report. BTW, since they're duplicates, you shouldn't need to try for Ch 12 & 13. Since Ch9, 10 & 11 are on three widely separated compass points, you might need a Rotator.

Although the UTube video approach may (barely) work when all stations are very strong, tacking a pair of long VHF elements to the Feedpoint of a UHF Bowtie Antenna seriously degrades the performance of BOTH (which is why you won't find it for sale from the major manufacturers). And there is no way to connect to the DB-8 Klone (side-by-side 4-Bays) you cited for UHF.

I'm not sure what dimensions you are presuming for the DB-8 Klone. Both the old and new versions of the DB-8 are designed for the OLD UHF Band, with severe loss on the lower UHF Channels:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html

I would recommend using the dimensions for the mclapp M4, which uses somewhat larger dimensions, optimized for the NEW UHF Band and is even effective for strong Hi-VHF signals (DIY or buy in Kit form):
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bay/super4m10x95
Note that Hi-VHF Raw Gain is 3.5 dBi (more than a Folded Dipole) with minimally acceptable SWR under 3.5. If you find that this isn't enough to receive your Hi-VHF stations, you could then add a Hi-VHF only Antenna, using a UHF/VHF Combiner, aka UVSJ.

You also might want to give consideration to adding a REFLECTOR to the M4, which increases both UHF and Hi-VHF Raw Gain, but increases Hi-VHF SWR:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl/m410x95

FYI: There are numerous simple DIY Hi-VHF Antennas described here, including Bi-Directional Circular Loop (better than Folded Dipole), Loop with Reflector, Hourglass, Hourglass with Reflector, 2-Bay Bowtie, et.al:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/hivhf2bay
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops
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post #4 of 46 Old 06-10-2013, 04:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi holl_ands,
So does that mean channel 6 is the only VHF-low in my area and channel 9,10,11,12 and 13 are VHF-high? Also the rest I listed before are UHF is CH 14-51? So what What length and size aluminum tubing would I need to pick up channel 6? So for VHF-high I should make a Folded Dipole like this? http://www.loopy.org/pictures/galleries/Dixon%20Ranch/November%202009/_thumbs/700x500-vhf7.jpg Email me back.

Thanks,

Varian



WEDN-DT (Digital)

Channel: 9
Network: PBS
Maximum ERP: 4.200 kW
Coordinates: 41.520654 -72.167023



Effective ERP: 3.146 kW (Adjusted according to your location)
Distance: 13.8 miles Azimuth: 169 degrees Compass: 183 degrees

_____________________________________________________

WTNH-DT (Digital)

Channel: 10 (8.1)
Network: ABC
Maximum ERP: 20.500 kW
Coordinates: 41.422874 -72.951215


.Effective ERP: 11.548 kW (Adjusted according to your location)
Distance: 43.1 miles Azimuth: 242 degrees Compass: 256 degrees

___________________________________________________________

WWLP-DT (Digital)

Channel: 11 (22.1)
Network: NBC
Maximum ERP: 15.800 kW
Coordinates: 42.084816 -72.703425



Effective ERP: 8.817 kW (Adjusted according to your location)
Distance: 35.7 miles Azimuth: 316 degrees Compass: 330 degrees

_______________________________________________________________________

WNAC-DT (Digital)

Channel: 12 (64.1)
Network: Fox
Maximum ERP: 30.000 kW
Coordinates: 41.876767 -71.281995



Effective ERP: 30.000 kW (Adjusted according to your location)
Distance: 49.5 miles Azimuth: 77 degrees Compass: 91 degrees

____________________________________________________________________________

WPRI-TV (Digital)

Channel: 13 (12.1)
Network: CBS
Maximum ERP: 30.000 kW
Coordinates: 41.876767 -71.281995



Effective ERP: 30.000 kW (Adjusted according to your location)
Distance: 49.5 miles Azimuth: 77 degrees Compass: 91 degrees

_________________________________________________________________________

WRGB (Digital)

Channel: 6 (6.1)
Network: CBS
Maximum ERP: 30.200 kW
Coordinates: 42.625355 -74.010128



Effective ERP: 30.200 kW (Adjusted according to your location)
Distance: 111.4 miles Azimuth: 305 degrees Compass: 319 degrees
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post #5 of 46 Old 06-10-2013, 06:04 AM
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The way it was told to me building an antenna is more art than science. First you build the antenna to what you think will work, then you test it, and if it works you then write the mathematics and theory. I wonder how this applies to a coat hanger?
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post #6 of 46 Old 06-10-2013, 09:55 AM
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Varian: Yes, Ch6 (CBS) is in Lo-VHF Band and the others you list are in Hi-VHF (Ch7-13). However, Real Ch33 (CBS) is a very weak duplicate for your local Ch6 (CBS), so you probably don't NEED it....unless there are some locally produced shows on that channel you want to watch.

FYI: Optimized sizes for "Hi-VHF Folded Dipoles" and "Ch6 Folded Dipoles" are found on fol. webpage:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops

HOWEVER, your Ch6 is too weak to be reliably received by a simple Folded Dipole (NM = -5.1 dB). You would need a HIGH GAIN Ch6 Antenna just to get a sniff of a signal. For long term reliability the fol. sum needs to be not only positive...but more than 10-20 dB higher to overcome Man-Made Noise, short term fading and long term propagation condition variations. That said, infrequent tropospheric ducting propagation sometimes makes it much easier to receive:
NM + Antenna Gain (in dBi) - 2.15 - System Noise Figure (typ 10-20 w/o Preamp, 5-10 with Preamp)

How to calculate System Noise Figure and interpret TVFool results table:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show....php?p=1480896

Last edited by holl_ands; 10-29-2015 at 08:24 AM.
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post #7 of 46 Old 10-27-2015, 02:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
<b>Varian:</b> Yes, Ch6 (CBS) is in Lo-VHF Band and the others you list are in Hi-VHF (Ch7-13). However, Real Ch33 (CBS) is a very weak duplicate for your local Ch6 (CBS), so you probably don't NEED it....unless there are some locally produced shows on that channel you want to watch.<br><br>
FYI: Optimized sizes for Hi-VHF Folded Dipoles are provided in Item 2 and Ch6 Folded Dipoles in Item 3 on fol. webpage:<br>
<a href="http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops" target="_blank">http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops</a><br><br>
HOWEVER, your Ch6 is too weak to be reliably received by a simple Folded Dipole (NM = -5.1 dB). You would need a HIGH GAIN Ch6 Antenna just to get a sniff of a signal. For long term reliability the fol. sum needs to be not only positive...but more than 10-20 dB higher to overcome Man-Made Noise, short term fading and long term propagation condition variations. That said, infrequent tropospheric ducting propagation sometimes makes it much easier to receive:<br>
NM + Antenna Gain (in dBi) - 2.15 - System Noise Figure (typ 10-20 w/o Preamp, 5-10 with Preamp)<br><br>
How to calculate System Noise Figure and interpret TVFool results table:<br>
<a href="http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=1480896" target="_blank">http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=1480896</a>
Hi,
I am not good with math. Can you tell me how many inches and how many feet and how wide the antenna needs to be to pick up Hi-VHF as in Item 2? Also can you tell me how many inches and how many feet and how wide the antenna needs to be to get ch. 6 has in more than 10-20 dB higher to overcome Man-Made Noise, short term fading and long term propagation condition variations and has in NM + Antenna Gain (in dBi) - 2.15 - System Noise Figure (typ 10-20 w/o Preamp, 5-10 with Preamp)? How to calculate System Noise Figure and interpret TVFool results table:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show....php?p=1480896 . Write back.
Thanks,
Varian
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post #8 of 46 Old 10-27-2015, 02:30 PM - Thread Starter
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HDTV Antenna Help?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
<b>Varian:</b> Yes, Ch6 (CBS) is in Lo-VHF Band and the others you list are in Hi-VHF (Ch7-13). However, Real Ch33 (CBS) is a very weak duplicate for your local Ch6 (CBS), so you probably don't NEED it....unless there are some locally produced shows on that channel you want to watch.<br><br>
FYI: Optimized sizes for Hi-VHF Folded Dipoles are provided in Item 2 and Ch6 Folded Dipoles in Item 3 on fol. webpage:<br>
<a href="http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops" target="_blank">http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops</a><br><br>
HOWEVER, your Ch6 is too weak to be reliably received by a simple Folded Dipole (NM = -5.1 dB). You would need a HIGH GAIN Ch6 Antenna just to get a sniff of a signal. For long term reliability the fol. sum needs to be not only positive...but more than 10-20 dB higher to overcome Man-Made Noise, short term fading and long term propagation condition variations. That said, infrequent tropospheric ducting propagation sometimes makes it much easier to receive:<br>
NM + Antenna Gain (in dBi) - 2.15 - System Noise Figure (typ 10-20 w/o Preamp, 5-10 with Preamp)<br><br>
How to calculate System Noise Figure and interpret TVFool results table:<br>
<a href="http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=1480896" target="_blank">http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=1480896</a>
Hi,
I am not good with math. Can you tell me how many inches and how many feet and how wide the antenna needs to be to pick up Hi-VHF as in Item 2? Also can you tell me how many inches and how many feet and how wide the antenna needs to be to get ch. 6 has in more than 10-20 dB higher to overcome Man-Made Noise, short term fading and long term propagation condition variations and has in NM + Antenna Gain (in dBi) - 2.15 - System Noise Figure (typ 10-20 w/o Preamp, 5-10 with Preamp)? How to calculate System Noise Figure and interpret TVFool results table:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show....php?p=1480896 . Write back.
Thanks,
Varian
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post #9 of 46 Old 10-28-2015, 06:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
<b>Varian:</b> Yes, Ch6 (CBS) is in Lo-VHF Band and the others you list are in Hi-VHF (Ch7-13). However, Real Ch33 (CBS) is a very weak duplicate for your local Ch6 (CBS), so you probably don't NEED it....unless there are some locally produced shows on that channel you want to watch.<br><br>
FYI: Optimized sizes for Hi-VHF Folded Dipoles are provided in Item 2 and Ch6 Folded Dipoles in Item 3 on fol. webpage:<br>
<a href="http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops" target="_blank">http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops</a><br><br>
HOWEVER, your Ch6 is too weak to be reliably received by a simple Folded Dipole (NM = -5.1 dB). You would need a HIGH GAIN Ch6 Antenna just to get a sniff of a signal. For long term reliability the fol. sum needs to be not only positive...but more than 10-20 dB higher to overcome Man-Made Noise, short term fading and long term propagation condition variations. That said, infrequent tropospheric ducting propagation sometimes makes it much easier to receive:<br>
NM + Antenna Gain (in dBi) - 2.15 - System Noise Figure (typ 10-20 w/o Preamp, 5-10 with Preamp)<br><br>
How to calculate System Noise Figure and interpret TVFool results table:<br>
<a href="http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=1480896" target="_blank">http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=1480896</a>
Hi,
I am not good with math. Can you tell me how many inches and how many feet and how wide the antenna needs to be to pick up Hi-VHF as in Item 2? Also can you tell me how many inches and how many feet and how wide the antenna needs to be to get ch. 6 has in more than 10-20 dB higher to overcome Man-Made Noise, short term fading and long term propagation condition variations and has in NM + Antenna Gain (in dBi) - 2.15 - System Noise Figure (typ 10-20 w/o Preamp, 5-10 with Preamp)? How to calculate System Noise Figure and interpret TVFool results table:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show....php?p=1480896 . Write back.
Thanks,
Varian
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post #10 of 46 Old 10-29-2015, 07:58 AM
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varian:

Please do a new tvfool report so that we can help you. The old one is no longer on the tvfool server.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...c08d8a0bbd46f7

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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post #11 of 46 Old 10-29-2015, 08:35 AM
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FWIW: Since I have added more Analyses to subject Webpage, the item numbers are no longer current....so I edited my post above to simply remove the item numbers.

"Hi-VHF Folded Dipoles" Webpage provided Optimized Dimensions for a Hi-VHF Band (Ch7-13), which vary depending on which size Tubing and Separation between the Long Tubes you chose to use....pick one, no math needed:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/folded

"Lo-VHF Folded Dipole incl. Ch6 & FM" Webpage provided Optimized Dimensions for Ch6, again with several different choices....pick one, no math needed.
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/vhffoldeddipole

BTW: Whether Copper or Aluminum makes no noticeable difference in performance...

Determining whether a Ch6 Folded Dipole is going to actually WORK at your location is a bit more involved....
FIRST, we need to see your LATEST TVFool Report.....the one from a couple years ago is not longer on server....

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post #12 of 46 Old 10-29-2015, 08:40 AM
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Based on his old posts, his report should look something like this, unless he moved:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8e03bceb1fcd5d




FM in attachment.
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post #13 of 46 Old 10-29-2015, 10:10 AM
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varian:

Where will your antenna be located?

I don't think you have much chance to get WRGB real channel 6 even with a BIG outdoor antenna like this:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...V-Antenna&c=TV Antennas&sku=700112818356

because of the curvature of the earth and the terrain between the transmitter and your location will make the signal extremely weak:



Here is the tvfool terrain profile between the WRGB transmitter on the left and your location on the right. The black arc at the bottom of the profile is the curvature of the earth:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...ALLTV%26n%3d23

Here is another profile using different software. You can see how the curvature of the earth blocks the signal:



better stick with WFSB for CBS and the other channels from the west. You don't need a VHF antenna for them, because they are all UHF, except ABC is missing. You can add a VHF-High yagi with a UVSJ combiner for WTNH:
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/30-2475

You don't need WEDN PBS on 9, because you have WEDH.

If you make an 8-bay UHF antenna using two 4-bays antennas combined with a splitter in reverse, make the whiskers 9-1/2" long on each side, and make the vertical spacing between the bays 9".

To make sure that the two 4-bay antennas are correctly phased together, reverse the 300 ohm wires on ONE of the baluns to see which way makes the signals stronger.

DIY instructions here:
http://m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweather.com/index.html

As holl_ands said, add a reflector for more gain, 4-1/2" behind elements.
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post #14 of 46 Old 10-29-2015, 03:22 PM
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varian:

Plans for your UHF 8-bay antenna

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post #15 of 46 Old 10-29-2015, 04:33 PM
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Quotes from PM questions that you should have asked on the open forum so that others could answer:
Quote:
So how many How Many Inches & How Many Feet HDTV Antenna be to get WTNH 8? I don't think a VHF-High yagi would fit in my apartment.
You need the yagi and a preamp to have any chance for WTNH when the antenna is inside, but you can try a folded dipole if you want to.
http://users.wfu.edu/matthews/misc/dipole.html

WTNH is on real channel 10, 192 to 198 MHz, center frequency 195 MHz.
Folded dipole would be 5540/195 = 28.4 inches long.



Quote:
Also How Many Inches & How Many Feet HDTV Antenna be to get WEDN PBS 9?
WEDN is much stronger than WTNH, so it might come in on the WTNH antenna. It might even come in on the 8-bay UHF antenna. A folded dipole for channel 9 would be:
5540/189 = 29.3 inches long
Quote:
Because I live in Willimantic so I am closer to Norwich Connecticut. I want to get WSHM CBS 3.5 out of Springfield Massachusetts.
I don't see that on your estimated tvfool report that I did, and you didn't give us a new report as we requested.

WSHM is a low power station that has a directional antenna which sends only about 10% of its signal your way. No way, varian, forget it. The FCC map show no coverage at all for Windham; see attachment 2.

That $20 YAGI would work better than the folded dipoles, is only 5 feet long, and would probably cost less in the long run.
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post #16 of 46 Old 10-29-2015, 09:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Quotes from PM questions that you should have asked on the open forum so that others could answer:
You need the yagi and a preamp to have any chance for WTNH when the antenna is inside, but you can try a folded dipole if you want to.
http://users.wfu.edu/matthews/misc/dipole.html

WTNH is on real channel 10, 192 to 198 MHz, center frequency 195 MHz.
Folded dipole would be 5540/195 = 28.4 inches long.



WEDN is much stronger than WTNH, so it might come in on the WTNH antenna. It might even come in on the 8-bay UHF antenna. A folded dipole for channel 9 would be:
5540/189 = 29.3 inches long
I don't see that on your estimated tvfool report that I did, and you didn't give us a new report as we requested.

WSHM is a low power station that has a directional antenna which sends only about 10% of its signal your way. No way, varian, forget it. The FCC map show no coverage at all for Windham; see attachment 2.

That $20 YAGI would work better than the folded dipoles, is only 5 feet long, and would probably cost less in the long run.
Thank you for the info. !! Do you think the $20.00 YAGI would fit in my apartment? Have you ever seen anyone put a $20.00 YAGI in an apartment? Write back.

Thanks,
Varian
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post #17 of 46 Old 10-30-2015, 04:56 AM
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Quote:
Thank you for the info. !!
You are welcome; glad you found it useful.
Quote:
Have you ever seen anyone put a $20.00 YAGI in an apartment?
We are already up to post #16 , and you finally tell us your antenna will be in an apartment?

You need to put an antenna where the strongest signal is located, not where you want it to be. If you can't put the antenna outside, where can you put it inside?

The Antennas Direct C2V is an indoor/outdoor antenna that often works well indoors for strong UHF and VHF signals. The DB4e is often used indoors.

But your signals are not strong and they are not of good quality as indicated by 2Edge signal paths, if the estimated report that I did is accurate:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8e03bceb1fcd5d

It is difficult for us to help you if you intentionally withhold important information.

I have already designed two antennas for you based on meager information.

You haven't given us a link to a new accurate tvfool report. I had to make an estimate of your location for the report that I did, just to help you. Your new accurate report based on your exact address or exact coordinates would not show your exact address and the coordinates would be shortened to protect your identity.

An exact address report is very useful because we can click on a callsign to see what the terrain looks like between the transmitter and your location.

You have not done an FM FOOL report that might show strong local FM signals that could interfere with the reception of VHF-High signals. FM FOOL reports don't link like TVFOOL reports; you have to use an image. You can do your FM report here:
http://www.fmfool.com/index.php?opti...pper&Itemid=29

I did an FM report based on an estimate of your location. See the attachment.

We don't know if you have an attic.

We don't know if you can put your antenna in a window that faces the transmitters.

We don't know the type of construction of the building.

We don't know what floor the antenna will be on.

We don't know if there are any trees or other buildings in the signal paths.

We don't know if you have tried indoor reception with or without a preamp.

We don't know how many TVs and how long the coax lines will be.

You will need to do some experiments to find out what kind of reception you will have in your apartment. You will need to try different antennas and different locations for antennas, because your signals are weak and of poor quality.

You might need to cut back on your expectations, and be happy with what you are able to get with an indoor antenna.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 10-30-2015 at 08:52 AM.
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post #18 of 46 Old 10-30-2015, 09:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
You are welcome; glad you found it useful.
We are already up to post #16 , and you finally tell us your antenna will be in an apartment?

You need to put an antenna where the strongest signal is located, not where you want it to be. If you can't put the antenna outside, where can you put it inside?

The Antennas Direct C2V is an indoor/outdoor antenna that often works well indoors for strong UHF and VHF signals. The DB4e is often used indoors.

But your signals are not strong and they are not of good quality as indicated by 2Edge signal paths, if the estimated report that I did is accurate:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8e03bceb1fcd5d

It is difficult for us to help you if you intentionally withhold important information.

I have already designed two antennas for you based on meager information.

You haven't given us a link to a new accurate tvfool report. I had to make an estimate of your location for the report that I did, just to help you. Your new accurate report based on your exact address or exact coordinates would not show your exact address and the coordinates would be shortened to protect your identity.

An exact address report is very useful because we can click on a callsign to see what the terrain looks like between the transmitter and your location.

You have not done an FM FOOL report that might show strong local FM signals that could interfere with the reception of VHF-High signals. FM FOOL reports don't link like TVFOOL reports; you have to use an image. You can do your FM report here:
http://www.fmfool.com/index.php?opti...pper&Itemid=29

I did an FM report based on an estimate of your location. See the attachment.

We don't know if you have an attic.

We don't know if you can put your antenna in a window that faces the transmitters.

We don't know the type of construction of the building.

We don't know what floor the antenna will be on.

We don't know if there are any trees or other buildings in the signal paths.

We don't know if you have tried indoor reception with or without a preamp.

We don't know how many TVs and how long the coax lines will be.

You will need to do some experiments to find out what kind of reception you will have in your apartment. You will need to try different antennas and different locations for antennas, because your signals are weak and of poor quality.

You might need to cut back on your expectations, and be happy with what you are able to get with an indoor antenna.
Hi,
Here is my TV Fool & FM Fool results. Also here is where I live. My Apartment is on the third floor and will be in the living room. Not sure how tall my building is. If any one knows please let me know. Write back.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8e036bb5c39747

http://www.fmfool.com/index.php?opti...pper&Itemid=29

http://windham.univers-clt.com/view_...&series_card=1

http://www.livecedarwoods.com/willim...rwoods/photos/

https://www.facebook.com/cedarwoodsapartments/?fref=ts

Thanks,
Varian
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post #19 of 46 Old 10-30-2015, 09:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
You are welcome; glad you found it useful.
We are already up to post #16 , and you finally tell us your antenna will be in an apartment?

You need to put an antenna where the strongest signal is located, not where you want it to be. If you can't put the antenna outside, where can you put it inside?

The Antennas Direct C2V is an indoor/outdoor antenna that often works well indoors for strong UHF and VHF signals. The DB4e is often used indoors.

But your signals are not strong and they are not of good quality as indicated by 2Edge signal paths, if the estimated report that I did is accurate:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8e03bceb1fcd5d

It is difficult for us to help you if you intentionally withhold important information.

I have already designed two antennas for you based on meager information.

You haven't given us a link to a new accurate tvfool report. I had to make an estimate of your location for the report that I did, just to help you. Your new accurate report based on your exact address or exact coordinates would not show your exact address and the coordinates would be shortened to protect your identity.

An exact address report is very useful because we can click on a callsign to see what the terrain looks like between the transmitter and your location.

You have not done an FM FOOL report that might show strong local FM signals that could interfere with the reception of VHF-High signals. FM FOOL reports don't link like TVFOOL reports; you have to use an image. You can do your FM report here:
http://www.fmfool.com/index.php?opti...pper&Itemid=29

I did an FM report based on an estimate of your location. See the attachment.

We don't know if you have an attic.

We don't know if you can put your antenna in a window that faces the transmitters.

We don't know the type of construction of the building.

We don't know what floor the antenna will be on.

We don't know if there are any trees or other buildings in the signal paths.

We don't know if you have tried indoor reception with or without a preamp.

We don't know how many TVs and how long the coax lines will be.

You will need to do some experiments to find out what kind of reception you will have in your apartment. You will need to try different antennas and different locations for antennas, because your signals are weak and of poor quality.

You might need to cut back on your expectations, and be happy with what you are able to get with an indoor antenna.
Hi,
Here is my TV Fool & FM Fool results. Also here is where I live. My Apartment is on the third floor and will be in the living room. Not sure how tall my building is. If any one knows please let me know. Write back.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8e036bb5c39747

http://www.fmfool.com/index.php?opti...pper&Itemid=29

http://windham.univers-clt.com/view_...&series_card=1

http://www.livecedarwoods.com/willim...rwoods/photos/

https://www.facebook.com/cedarwoodsapartments/?fref=ts

Thanks,
Varian
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post #20 of 46 Old 10-30-2015, 12:23 PM
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Which direction does your living room window face? If towards WEST, you stand a fair chance of receiving FOX, PBS and maybe NBC & CBS. If NOT, an Outdoor Antenna may be your only hope....or CABLE.

If you WANT to try for the SECOND PBS station on Ch9, you might want to start with A-D C2V and/or Terk HDTVa....but with 20 dB of Loss through typical LowE Tinted Thermal Windows (and Man-Made Noise NOT included in TVFool Results), it's going to be iffy....and doubly so if NOT receiving Ch9 signals thru the Window. I would recommend ordering/building more than one and do side-by-side tests...incl. dealing with the WAF (Wife Approval Factor). Make sure you can RETURN will FULL Refund.:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/zigz...gbrdo6.eagle_s
It is possible that PBS on Ch9 MAY come in when UHF Ch45 does NOT, in which case HDTVa might be a good choice, depending on UHF Results. [And if Ch9 does NOT come in reliably, you could try a SEPARATE higher Gain Hi-VHF Antenna....such as one of the several SIMPLE DIY projects listed below.]

If you decide you don't NEED Ch9, one of several, higher Gain UHF Only Antennas could be tried....I would recommend the highest Gain you can "fit" into your Apartment...perhaps hidden behind the LR Window Curtains???

Note that OPTIMIZED UHF H2 2-Bay Antenna has Overall Dimensions = 20.0-in H x 21.75-in W...which fits inside most windows. I intentionally did NOT include ANY of the popular FLAT (and other) Indoor Antennas on the market....because they're WAY TOO SMALL for good UHF (and certainly NOT Hi-VHF) performance, intended for STRONG Signal Strength locations, such as the WallTenna I analyzed...[and came up with Mods to improve it a bit]:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/mult...naenhancements

================================================== ================
Alternative VHF/UHF Indoor Antennas: [If NOT built-in, External Amplifier MAY improve SNR.]

VHF Rabbit-Ears/UHF Loop:
Hi-VHF Band Gain ~ 2 dBi, UHF Band Raw Gain = 3-4 dBi [Amplified is better]
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/uhfcircular

Terk HDTVa: Hi-VHF Band Gain ~ 2 dBi, UHF Band Raw Gain = 6 to 7 dBi [Built-in Amplifier]

DIY: Hi-VHF Quad-Loop (NO Refl): Hi-VHF Ch7-13 Raw Gain = 5.3-6.1 with Excellent SWR under 1.6
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loop...fhourglassloop
PLUS USING UVSJ TO COMBINE (or Alternative UHF Antenna of your choice):
UHF Quad-Trapezoid-Loop+2xBars (NO Refl):
UHF Raw Gain = 6.6 to 9.4 dBi, SWR (300-ohms) under 1.8.
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loop...zoidloop2xbars [FLAT, Bi-Directional.]

DIY RLH2 2-Bay+Loop: Hi-VHF Raw Gain = 3.9 to 4.3 dBi, UHF Raw Gain = 8.3 dBi +/- 0.5 dB. [Hi-VHF SWR Under 2.3]
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loop...lh212x10norefl [FLAT, Bi-Directional.]

A-D Clearstream C2V+Refl: Hi-VHF Raw Gain = 2 dBi, UHF Raw Gain = 9.4 to 10.1 dBi.
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loop...taperedloopc2v

DIY RLH4 4-Bay+Loops: Hi-VHF Raw Gain = 3.5 dBi , UHF Raw Gain = 9.7 to 12.4 dBi . [Hi-VHF SWR ~ 2.8 on Ch9]
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loop...lh410x14norefl [FLAT, Bi-Directional.]

The DIY Antennas can be fabricated using AWG10 (house electrical) wire or laid out with Metallized Foil Tape on Clear Plastic and (ideally) taped inside a Window...or behind curtains....or behind a picture...whatever...

================================================== ================
Alternative UHF Indoor Antennas: [If NOT built-in, External Amplifier MAY improve SNR.]

DIY H2 2-Bay + NO Refl: UHF Raw Gain = 7.3 to 10.3 dBi and SWR (300-ohms) under 3.0 (Good).
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/mult...tienoreflector [FLAT, Bi-Directional.]

A-D Clearstream C2 + Refl: UHF Raw Gain = 9.6 to 10.1 dBi with Screen Grid Reflector:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/hivhfuhftaperedloopc2v [3 dB less if Remove Grid)]

CM4221HD 4-Bay Bowtie + Refl: UHF Raw Gain=11.2 to 14.8 dBi and UHF SWR(300-ohms) under 2.1:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/mult...uhfnewcm4221hd [3 dB less if Remove Grid)]
There is a recommended "Hack" to reverse Feedline/Balun Assembly so Balun is much further from sensitive Feedlines.

Mclapp's M4: 4-Bay Bowtie + NO Refl: UHF Raw Gain = 9.0 to 12.3 dBi and SWR (300-ohms) under 3.5 (Fair).http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/mult...y/super4m10x95 [mclapp sells prefab 4-Bay Assemblies.]

DIY FF4: Free-Form 4-Bay Bowtie + NO Refl: UHF Raw Gain = 9.7 to 12.6 dBi and SWR (300-ohms) under 2.6.
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/mult...aybowtienorefl [FLAT, Bi-Directional.]

DIY H2 2-Bay Bowties + 11 Refl Rods: UHF Raw Gain = 11.7 to 13.8 dBi and SWR (300-ohms) Under 2.6.
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/mult...baybowtievarrr

Mclapp's M4: 4-Bay Bowtie + 7 Refl Rods: UHF Raw Gain = 11.6 to 14.4 dBi and SWR (300-ohms) Under 2-6.
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/mult...riousnumberrrs [mclapp sells prefab 4-Bay Assemblies.]
Higher Gain possible with more Reflector Rods...

Mclapp's M4: 4-Bay Bowtie + 17 Refl Rods: UHF Raw Gain = 12.8 to 15.2 dBi and SWR (300-ohms) Under 2-6.
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/mult...riousnumberrrs [mclapp sells prefab 4-Bay Assemblies.]
Higher Gain possible with more Reflector Rods...

Mclapp's M4: 4-Bay Bowtie + FLAT Refl: UHF Raw Gain = 13.3 to 14.9 dBi and SWR (300-ohms) under 2.7.
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/mult...0grid40x34refl [mclapp sells prefab 4-Bay Assemblies.]

================================================== ================
Alternative Hi-VHF Indoor Antennas: [Amplifier rarely helps....and Overload Desensitization can degrade.]

DIY Hi-VHF Hourglass Loop: Ch7-13 Raw Gain = 5.3 to 6.1 with Excellent SWR under 1.6 (assuming Quarter-inch Copper Tubing).
May use pretty much ANY Wire Size or Metallized Tape with only minor impact. Can add Reflector Rods for more Gain:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loop...fhourglassloop

Last edited by holl_ands; 11-01-2015 at 01:04 PM.
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post #21 of 46 Old 10-30-2015, 01:00 PM
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TVFool NM (dB) Considerations SIMPLIFIED using just Easy Math:

Fade Margin is the Pass/Fail Criteria we REALLY need to know...
I would like to see 10-20 dB AFTER taking a guesstimate for the fol. list of "UNKNOWNS".

Fade Margin
is how many presumably EXTRA dB we have available to deal with short term Multipath Fading and Seasonal/Weather Signal variations....and various unknowns, such as extra Loss due to a HILL in your backyard that TVFool can't "See" in the digital, low-rez Topo Maps....and TREES/BUILDING in the way (could be quite high)....and Clutter Loss (typ 3-6+ dB, mostly in Urban Environments)...and INDOOR Penetration Loss (typ. 7-20+ dB). And many of us simply eyeball it based on experience and having looked at many similar situations.....

Fade Margin (dB) = NM (dB) + Antenna Gain (dB) - System Noise Figure (dB)

[Andy S. Lee says to use dBd for Antenna Gain, which is 2 dB LOWER than the usual dBi...diff is negligible.]

System Noise Figure is on the order of 3-5 dB with a Preamp, mostly depending on total RF Splitter Loss.
Without a Preamp, it's the SUM of the Balun Loss (typ. 0.5 to 3 dB, never disclosed by mrf), all Coax Cable Losses, total RF Splitter Loss (3.5 to 4 dB per Split) and Noise Figure of the Tuner (typ 5-8 dB, but almost never disclosed by mfr). I provided a System Noise Figure Spread Sheet Calculator:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/file...=0&y=2&z=4&l=0

Last edited by holl_ands; 10-30-2015 at 01:07 PM.
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post #22 of 46 Old 10-30-2015, 01:05 PM
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Thanks for the tvfool report active link, but it is block level, not exact.

The FM Fool report link isn't your report, it's just the start page where you enter your location. You have to convert your report to an image.

Thanks for the information about the apartment. If you are on the third floor, that helps. If you have a window that faces the transmitters, that's even better. Hopefully, the window doesn't have metal screen or low-E glass, both of which will block signals. Since the building is Eastern Connecticut's first LEED certified "green" building, there is a good chance that the windows have low-E glass that will block TV signals.

When I enter the apartment address, I also get block level.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8e0319db0b5416

So, using the tvfool interactive map, I put the cursor on the center of the complex (which doesn't look like the web photos) and got this:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8e037ec0f3c952

And I did another FM report; see attachment.

So, you still have an indoor antenna, weak signals, and 2Edge signal paths; very challenging for TV reception. You will need to do a lot of experiments with indoor antennas, different antenna locations, and preamps.

Try your 4-bay or 8-bay DIY antenna with a preamp first.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 10-30-2015 at 01:19 PM.
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post #23 of 46 Old 10-30-2015, 03:59 PM
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For Indoor use, I hesitate to recommend 4-Bay Bowties with Large Angled Reflectors....or 8-Bay Bowties cuz they're rather LARGE and the NARROW Beamwidth requires very careful aiming....[but my CM4228HD fits in a large, upstairs Closet/Storage Center in the slope under the Garage.] If you want, you could use below Dimensions to DIY....

CM4228HD with NO Reflector + HHH:
Holl_ands Horizontal Harness improves Gain & SWR Performance, with a bit more FORWARD Gain:
UHF Raw Gain = 11.7 to 13.8 dBi, F/B & F/R Ratio = 1.6 to 0.4 dB and SWR (300-ohms) Under 2.8 (Good).
Hi-VHF Raw Gain = 3.6 to 5.1 dBi, F/B & F/R Ratio = 1.1 to 0.9 dB and SWR (300-ohms) Under 3.0 (a bit High).
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/mult...228hdnoreflhhh
[16 Reflector Rod assembly detaches...actually it comes that way in the shipping box.]

HHH significantly improves UHF Gain (esp. lower channels) and Hi-VHF SWR vs out-of-the box Harness analyzed here:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/mult...cm4228hdnorefl

CM4228HD with 16 Reflector Rods + HHH:
UHF Raw Gain = 15.0 to 14.9 to 16.5 dBi, F/B & F/R Ratio Min = 19.1 dB and SWR (300-ohms) Under 2.3.
These are significant improvements over the AS-SHIPPED CM4228HD version.
Hi-VHF Raw Gain = 4.3 to 12.9 dBi and SWR (300-ohms) = 14.2 to 9.8 to 61.9 is Excessive, which MIGHT be an issue. I provided a Diagram with detailed Dimensions for the HHH in Slide #30 :
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/mult...dshorizharness

Also note improvement from Original for HHH or RF Combiner Mod is about the same (assuming PERFECT RF Combiner)....but the latter ALSO has both Insertion and Amplitude/Phase Mis-Match Loss, which the HHH AVOIDS:


Last edited by holl_ands; 10-30-2015 at 04:14 PM.
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post #24 of 46 Old 10-30-2015, 04:41 PM
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If you can accommodate the HEIGHT, fol. Vertically Stacked 4-Bay Bowtie (assuming mclapps's prefab M4 Bowtie Assemblies) actually provides MORE Gain than Horizontally Stacked CM4228....and has MUCH Wider Beamwidth to simply aiming the Antenna:

Vert-Stack M4 (9.5x9) + NO Refl. + HHH:
UHF Raw Gain = 11.7 to 15.2 dBi, F/B & F/R = 0.3 to 0.6 dB and SWR (300-ohms) under 2.4.
Hi-VHF Raw Gain = 7.1 to 7.9 dBi, F/B & F/R = 0.7 to 0.6 dB and SWR (300-ohms) 5.5 to 2.5 to 6.9
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/stac...5x9noreflector

By now your head should be SWIMMING with all of the POSSIBILITIES.
You should pick which ever suits our fancy as being within your capabilities and size constraints.
Bear in mind that it is NOT possible to predict EXACTLY what you are going to NEED....so either pick one of the Higher Gain Antennas....or at least pick something simple to TRY, bearing in mind that it's a Trial Balloon just to see if it's adequate or not...and might need to be upgraded later, like one half of a Stacked Pair.

Some other (mostly HUGE) Vertically Stacked Antennas are found HERE, incl Reflectorized versions...and if someone requests it, I can probably add more (e.g. FF4 or FF6 with NO Reflector)...but it takes awhile:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/stac...allystackeduhf

Obviously, I'm including versions with NO Reflector cuz it's easier to HIDE in an Apartment [rather than the need to receive in OPPOSITE directions], perhaps behind a curtain (if you are lucky it's oriented in the right direction) or in the corner, aimed in the requisite direction, hidden behind a large room divider, Antique Dressing Screen, a Wizard of Oz themed curtain...or whatever. When I lived in an apartment, I hid a 4-Bay Bowtie w Reflector Screen behind a big chair and the other one in the bedroom, precariously hung on a curtain rod in plain sight like a Modern Art Display.

Last edited by holl_ands; 10-30-2015 at 04:52 PM.
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post #25 of 46 Old 10-30-2015, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Thanks for the tvfool report active link, but it is block level, not exact.

The FM Fool report link isn't your report, it's just the start page where you enter your location. You have to convert your report to an image.

Thanks for the information about the apartment. If you are on the third floor, that helps. If you have a window that faces the transmitters, that's even better. Hopefully, the window doesn't have metal screen or low-E glass, both of which will block signals. Since the building is Eastern Connecticut's first LEED certified "green" building, there is a good chance that the windows have low-E glass that will block TV signals.

When I enter the apartment address, I also get block level.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8e0319db0b5416

So, using the tvfool interactive map, I put the cursor on the center of the complex (which doesn't look like the web photos) and got this:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8e037ec0f3c952

And I did another FM report; see attachment.

So, you still have an indoor antenna, weak signals, and 2Edge signal paths; very challenging for TV reception. You will need to do a lot of experiments with indoor antennas, different antenna locations, and preamps.

Try your 4-bay or 8-bay DIY antenna with a preamp first.
Hi,
Here is the TV fool Image and FM Fool Image. I have tried a wall antenna before and got WFSB CBS 33 3.1, WTIC 31 61.1, WEDH 45 PBS &WPXQ-TV ION. My Window is East South East and my TV is East. Write back.
https://www.tvfool.com/modeling/tmp/.../Radar-All.png

http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/6bb5c39747/getfm.php

Thanks,
Varian
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post #26 of 46 Old 10-30-2015, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Thanks for the tvfool report active link, but it is block level, not exact.

The FM Fool report link isn't your report, it's just the start page where you enter your location. You have to convert your report to an image.

Thanks for the information about the apartment. If you are on the third floor, that helps. If you have a window that faces the transmitters, that's even better. Hopefully, the window doesn't have metal screen or low-E glass, both of which will block signals. Since the building is Eastern Connecticut's first LEED certified "green" building, there is a good chance that the windows have low-E glass that will block TV signals.

When I enter the apartment address, I also get block level.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8e0319db0b5416

So, using the tvfool interactive map, I put the cursor on the center of the complex (which doesn't look like the web photos) and got this:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8e037ec0f3c952

And I did another FM report; see attachment.

So, you still have an indoor antenna, weak signals, and 2Edge signal paths; very challenging for TV reception. You will need to do a lot of experiments with indoor antennas, different antenna locations, and preamps.

Try your 4-bay or 8-bay DIY antenna with a preamp first.
Hi,
Here is the TV fool Image and FM Fool Image. I have tried a wall antenna before and got WFSB CBS 33 3.1, WTIC 31 61.1, WEDH 45 PBS &WPXQ-TV ION. My Window is East South East and my TV is East. Write back.



Thanks,
Varian

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post #27 of 46 Old 10-30-2015, 06:19 PM
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They aren't making it very easy to receive Ch9....second Harmonic of your strongest FM (98.3 MHz) falls right on top....SO, IF you decide to pass Hi-VHF signals through a Preamp (NOT that I'm recommending it), you'll need a FULL BAND FM FILTER (either A-D or MCM) on the output of the Hi-VHF Antenna [RCA Amp Thread has links].

And IF you are NOT trying to receive Ch9, don't worry about strong FM signals.

REFLECTORIZED ANTENNA COMPARISON CHART:
I added 8-Bay CM4228HD+16RR+HHH....and YES the FF4 4-Bay is better, except on highest Frequencies:


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post #28 of 46 Old 10-30-2015, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Here is the TV fool Image and FM Fool Image. I have tried a wall antenna before and got WFSB CBS 33 3.1, WTIC 31 61.1, WEDH 45 PBS &WPXQ-TV ION. My Window is East South East and my TV is East.
Ah, good, you did try some tests.

What model is your wall antenna?

Does it have an amplifier?

That sounds promising. It's time for you to try your DIY antenna.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html

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HIGH GAIN UHF ANTENNAS:


REFLECTORIZED UHF ANTENNAS:
YES, FF4 4-Bay is better than CM4228HD 8-Bay, except highest Freqs:


MEDIUM GAIN UHF 2-BAYS, ALL WITH 11RR:


NO REFLECTOR UHF ANTENNAS:

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post #30 of 46 Old 10-31-2015, 03:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Ah, good, you did try some tests.

What model is your wall antenna?

Does it have an amplifier?

That sounds promising. It's time for you to try your DIY antenna.
What model is your wall antenna? It was a Mohu Antenna
http://store.gomohu.com/the-leaf-ind...2W0BoCq6fw_wcB


Does it have an amplifier? Yes it was I Plugged it in my wall. Write back.

Thanks,
Varian
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