Can we please discuss BALUNs 300 Ohm to 75 Ohm in an easy to understand manner? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 85 Old 09-20-2018, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by nathill View Post
Your research is so darned well thought-out and practical.
I never could have come up with such a clever and simple method to figure out which ones are best, nor could I have ever guessed different baluns would show so much difference in performance.


The good news is that I'm a pack rat, and I have some old baluns laying around that look a LOT like the original 94444s.



THANKS!
can you sell me one of the cm 9444 you have.

thanks
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post #62 of 85 Old 09-20-2018, 07:06 PM
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I said it LOOKS a lot like the old 94444s.


Give me a day or two to check my rather scattered inventory and see how many I have. If I have more than one, I'll work out something with you.
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post #63 of 85 Old 09-20-2018, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by nathill View Post
I said it LOOKS a lot like the old 94444s.


Give me a day or two to check my rather scattered inventory and see how many I have. If I have more than one, I'll work out something with you.

On second thought, this is the best answer. This looks exactly like mine (and I'm not sure mine is the real deal).
I can't ship one to you as cheaply as they'll sell one to you and deliver it to your door.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Outdoor-Bal...AAAOSwHYVaVUjk
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post #64 of 85 Old 09-21-2018, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by nathill View Post
On second thought, this is the best answer. This looks exactly like mine (and I'm not sure mine is the real deal).
I can't ship one to you as cheaply as they'll sell one to you and deliver it to your door.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Outdoor-Bal...AAAOSwHYVaVUjk

There's no guarantee the balun they are selling, and the one in that stock photo that they used is the same one. Do NOT buy on the basis of that photo! I've been on Ebay as a buyer and seller for 21 years, seen all the various good and bad, and I'd suspect 99.9% likely you will get the NEW version of that balun.
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post #65 of 85 Old 09-21-2018, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathill View Post
Your research is so darned well thought-out and practical.
I never could have come up with such a clever and simple method to figure out which ones are best, nor could I have ever guessed different baluns would show so much difference in performance.
Thank you for your kind words. The tests that I do are not lab-grade because I don't have much lab-grade equipment. I try to make measurements that could be duplicated by an advanced user.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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post #66 of 85 Old 09-21-2018, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Primestar31 View Post
There's no guarantee the balun they are selling, and the one in that stock photo that they used is the same one. Do NOT buy on the basis of that photo! I've been on Ebay as a buyer and seller for 21 years, seen all the various good and bad, and I'd suspect 99.9% likely you will get the NEW version of that balun.

You're probably right. When the ones I just bought on Ebay get to me, we'll know!
Even if they are the new model, Rabbit73 has demonstrated clearly that by cutting the wires down to 2 1/2", the performance is essentially equal to the old ones.
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post #67 of 85 Old 09-21-2018, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Thank you for your kind words. The tests that I do are not lab-grade because I don't have much lab-grade equipment. I try to make measurements that could be duplicated by an advanced user.

I would suspect your equipment is plenty good enough to get very good results for the area you're working with and we're all interested in. You're not measuring picograms of opioids!

Keep it up!
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post #68 of 85 Old 09-21-2018, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Primestar31 View Post
There's no guarantee the balun they are selling, and the one in that stock photo that they used is the same one. Do NOT buy on the basis of that photo! I've been on Ebay as a buyer and seller for 21 years, seen all the various good and bad, and I'd suspect 99.9% likely you will get the NEW version of that balun.
That is what happened to me when I ordered the original 94444 balun from three eBay sellers that used a photo of the original 94444 in their listing.

Two of the sellers sent the new balun to me, so I gave them negative feedback, which, of course, upset them. I explained to them that the item sent was not the same as the item illustrated. The first one said to return them for a refund; I answered that I would keep them for testing. The second one had them sent from Home Depot; he didn't even have then in his possession. I explained to him the difference between the old and new balun and that Home Depot was using the image of the original 9444 on their website. Home Depot is now using the image of the new 9444.



The third seller sent the original 94444s, so I thanked him in an email for his honesty.

MCM/Newark shows the old but sent the new to a reviewer (Chard15)
.https://www.newark.com/channel-maste...direct-product

Home Depot has a review by ElectronicsHobbyist that supports my conclusion about lead length.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Channel-...4444/203763061

Quote:
.....If you are getting poor results, I can guess why - you left the long leads it comes with that have ring terminals on the ends of them instead of shortening the leads to just the length needed for a UHF antenna. Those long leads are for connecting to those big old VHF (low number channels) antennas everybody had on their chimney 50 years ago.....I put one on a DIY UHF antenna with the leads cut to 1/2 to 3/4" long, and it outperformed the RCA one Lowe's sells that is put in a very similar plastic shell but uses the old style ferrite toroid coil.

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If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 09-21-2018 at 08:57 AM.
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post #69 of 85 Old 09-21-2018, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
That is what happened to me when I ordered the original 94444 balun from three eBay sellers that used a photo of the original 94444 in their listing.

Two of the sellers sent the new balun to me, so I gave them negative feedback, which, of course, upset them. I explained to them that the item sent was not the same as the item illustrated. The first one said to return them for a refund; I answered that I would keep them for testing. The second one had them sent from Home Depot; he didn't even have then in his possession. I explained to him the difference between the old and new balun and that Home Depot was using the image of the original 9444 on their website. Home Depot is now using the image of the new 9444.



The third seller sent the original 94444s, so I thanked him in an email for his honesty.

MCM/Newark shows the old but sent the new to a reviewer (Chard15)
.https://www.newark.com/channel-maste...direct-product

Home Depot has a review by ElectronicsHobbyist that supports my conclusion about lead length.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Channel-...4444/203763061





who was the seller for the third one that was original. looking for one too,
thanks
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post #70 of 85 Old 09-21-2018, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by user7 View Post
who was the seller for the third one that was original. looking for one too,
thanks
I will give you that information in a PM to give you first choice.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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post #71 of 85 Old 09-21-2018, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by user7 View Post
who was the seller for the third one that was original. looking for one too,
thanks
I have sent a PM (Forum Private Message) to you with that information.

If he still has some left and you order one, please let me know when your order is confirmed so that I can give the same information to another forum member.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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post #72 of 85 Old 09-28-2018, 09:19 AM
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Got the new ones, not the old good ones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Primestar31 View Post
There's no guarantee the balun they are selling, and the one in that stock photo that they used is the same one. Do NOT buy on the basis of that photo! I've been on Ebay as a buyer and seller for 21 years, seen all the various good and bad, and I'd suspect 99.9% likely you will get the NEW version of that balun.

You win the prize for best prediction.
My baluns arrived today, and they not only were the new style, they came from Home Depot.
Ebay is an amazing place. Major retailers sell stuff disguised as other folks.
Well, can't say I wasn't warned!
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post #73 of 85 Old 09-28-2018, 03:15 PM
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This is why I never order from listings that use 'stock' photos. I want a photo of the ACTUAL item.

Nick

Every day I beat my own previous record for the number of consecutive
days I've stayed alive. - George Carlin - 1996
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post #74 of 85 Old 08-01-2019, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
I have sent a PM (Forum Private Message) to you with that information.

If he still has some left and you order one, please let me know when your order is confirmed so that I can give the same information to another forum member.
Hi Rabbit73,
Do you happen to still recall the seller on Ebay who had the original Channel Master CM-94444 baluns? If so could you please PM me.
Thanks much
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post #75 of 85 Old 08-02-2019, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Imbobman View Post
Hi Rabbit73,
Do you happen to still recall the seller on Ebay who had the original Channel Master CM-94444 baluns? If so could you please PM me.
Thanks much
Hello, Imbobman; welcome to the forum.

Forum member user7 received a PM from the seller saying that he had sold all of the original CM-94444 baluns.

The new 94444 is pretty good if you keep the wire leads short. I measured the loss of two connected in series back-to-back; the loss of one is half that.










CM is selling it for $5.00. They are asking $29.00 for the CM-3203 Deluxe balun, which seems a lot for a balun.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 08-02-2019 at 06:52 AM.
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post #76 of 85 Old 08-02-2019, 07:36 AM
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I don't like the baluns with the solid wire leads. I've seen the leads pop off inside the balun due to flexing. The solid wire acts like a lever on the solder pad. The stranded-lead baluns give some strain relief. I would use a new balun if you are putting an antenna on a roof. No sense in using an old balun that's been sitting around with unknown condition. This is solid lead balun cut open.


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post #77 of 85 Old 08-02-2019, 01:05 PM
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Thank you Rabbit73 for your reply & warm welcome to the forum. I know it was a long shot that that seller would have any originals yet but it was worth asking. I'm sure there are original CM-94444's out there but it has been a daunting task trying to find them.
I'll probably go with the new CM-94444 & shorten the leads as you suggested. Thank you for the excellent work you did here with the comparison tests on the baluns. Great job....
Best regards........
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post #78 of 85 Old 08-02-2019, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny antenna View Post
I don't like the baluns with the solid wire leads. I've seen the leads pop off inside the balun due to flexing. The solid wire acts like a lever on the solder pad. The stranded-lead baluns give some strain relief. I would use a new balun if you are putting an antenna on a roof. No sense in using an old balun that's been sitting around with unknown condition. This is solid lead balun cut open.


Thanks Johnny Antenna for your reply.
You bring up a good point. I hadn't really thought much about it but some sort of stain relief is necessary on the solid wire baluns. As I can see in your picture those soldered connections coming loose at some point.
The solid wires seem good as they can avoid a possible problem with crimped terminals corroding, etc.
I like the baluns that have the bracket that holds them to the antenna but the cable could still move/flex around & loosen at the 300 ohm soldered connections or 75ohm connector end.
Maybe the stranded wire is the way to go. Thanks!
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post #79 of 85 Old 08-29-2019, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by johnny antenna View Post
I don't like the baluns with the solid wire leads. I've seen the leads pop off inside the balun due to flexing. The solid wire acts like a lever on the solder pad. The stranded-lead baluns give some strain relief. I would use a new balun if you are putting an antenna on a roof. No sense in using an old balun that's been sitting around with unknown condition. This is solid lead balun cut open.


Yes, but it seems like you are forgetting the differences in behavior for electrons/electrical signals, attenuation, etc., between stranded and solid. There are reasons that solid is better in many cases (but not all). Also, to get similar characteristics between stranded and solid, at times, you will have to go to a thicker stranded cable.

So although stranded allows for more flex, I'd prefer they stick with solid, BUT also strengthen the chassis and have a flex boot or something similar which will take the strain off of the solder points, spread it out in a different manner, thereby giving the best of solid core AND not harming the solder points. But that could just be me....
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post #80 of 85 Old 12-02-2019, 03:21 AM
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I am currently working on a TV antenna of a Omni directional nature. I have built three Hovermans, two Danny Hodges - whisker antennas and am now working on a circular design out of copper tubing. Now I have taken a step back to think about the balun ....... Every antenna build I find on the net says to use the 75/300 ohm balun..... First - how can all these different types of antennas be 300 ohm and how do they measure it when there is dead air between each side ?? Also my balun is the new style and continuity of each side is .5. If it is a 4 to 1 or say 75 /300 ohm then readings should be 4 to 1 and not evenly matched as mine presents. Thoughts ?
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post #81 of 85 Old 12-02-2019, 03:22 AM
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Also, thanks for allowing me on board ! Very informative ! I appreciate your efforts !!
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post #82 of 85 Old 12-02-2019, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Lockpicker View Post
I am currently working on a TV antenna of a Omni directional nature. I have built three Hovermans, two Danny Hodges - whisker antennas and am now working on a circular design out of copper tubing.
Hello, Lockpicker; welcome to the forum.
Quote:
Now I have taken a step back to think about the balun ......Every antenna build I find on the net says to use the 75/300 ohm balun.....
Many DIY antennas have an output impedance of 300 ohms, so the proper balun for them would be 300 to 75 ohms, or 4:1. Some DIY antennas have an output impedance of 75 ohms, so the 300/75 ohm balun would not be correct for them.

Quote:
Also my balun is the new style and continuity of each side is .5. If it is a 4 to 1 or say 75 /300 ohm then readings should be 4 to 1 and not evenly matched as mine presents. Thoughts ?
When you use an ohmmeter to measure resistance, that is the DC resistance. The readings that you get with an ohmmeter are not conclusive because the internal wiring of the balun is different for different baluns.

The impedance of antennas is measured at RF frequencies with an impedance bridge, not an ohmmeter.

Quote:
I am currently working on a TV antenna of a Omni directional nature.....how do they measure it when there is dead air between each side ??
The air between the two sides of a dipole isn't dead; there is a current flow through the air between the two sides of a dipole; the impedance at the feedpoint is 75 ohms. The current flows through the capacitance between the two ends:
http://www.hottconsultants.com/pdf_files/dipoles-1.pdf

With a folded dipole, a connection between the two ends is made with a second dipole in parallel with the first dipole; the impedance at the feedpoint is 300 ohms. Even with the folded dipole there is current flow through the air because of the capacitance between the two ends that are at a different potential (voltage).
Quote:
am now working on a circular design out of copper tubing.
What does that design look like?

I must tell you that I am not a fan of Omni antennas; they receive poorly in all directions. If your desired channels are in different directions, you will usually need to find a different way to solve the reception problem.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 12-02-2019 at 09:16 AM.
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post #83 of 85 Old 12-02-2019, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lockpicker View Post
I am currently working on a TV antenna of a Omni directional nature. Thoughts ?

I'd also like to see the design because I'm not aware of a truly omni-directional antenna that will cover the entire VHF or UHF bands with an even response or a good match. Even if you can build such an antenna I wouldn't recommend it because it will be subject to multipath issues. Multipath is a big problem with OTA TV. A directional antenna goes a long ways towards solving that issue.
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post #84 of 85 Old 12-02-2019, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
I'd also like to see the design because I'm not aware of a truly omni-directional antenna that will cover the entire VHF or UHF bands with an even response or a good match. Even if you can build such an antenna I wouldn't recommend it because it will be subject to multipath issues. Multipath is a big problem with OTA TV. A directional antenna goes a long ways towards solving that issue.
The closest thing to such an omni antenna would definitely be a discone, which is very popular with scanner enthusiasts and military comms users. But for OTA applications it would indeed be of limited use because of the multipath issues stated above. Discones primarily work best with vertically polarized signals anyway. I tried one back in the analog era with mediocre results and I wouldn't even consider using one for digital OTA these days.

THE DISCONE:

Don't fear the Reaper. Fear the Repack!

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post #85 of 85 Old 12-04-2019, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Al_the_xmtr_tech View Post
The closest thing to such an omni antenna would definitely be a discone, which is very popular with scanner enthusiasts and military comms users. But for OTA applications it would indeed be of limited use because of the multipath issues stated above. Discones primarily work best with vertically polarized signals anyway. I tried one back in the analog era with mediocre results and I wouldn't even consider using one for digital OTA these days.

THE DISCONE:
_____________
I for a while recently used a similar discone ( Tram 1410), in an attic for OTA with decent results (fed with 75 ohm cable into an F to Pl-259 adapter at the antenna base) led to an LTE filter and Winegard LNA-100 ...

Some interesting observations:
The antenna was "sitting on it's radials" without a mast, on a plywood floor attic.
Although they are supposed to be Omni, I found that rotating the discone circularly in place , even just an inch or so, could change reception significantly. Perhaps if it were a true solid metal disc, and solid cone skirt/radial, rather than spaced elements, it would be more Omni..
I swapped/exchanged one of the longer radial elements with one of the shorter radiator elements, to see if it improved VHF Low/Hi , which it did, but of course it then had to be positioned more like a dipole in reference to the VHF transmitters(NYC)...
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Last edited by MeatChicken; 12-04-2019 at 11:54 AM.
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