Signal interference from air conditioner help please - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 126 Old 03-28-2015, 01:09 PM
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When installed, the EMI Filter should be all that's needed to get the job done....

BTW: I'm not surprised to see that Yun-pen didn't specify performance any higher than HF Band.....because most EMI Specs are were derived from MIL-SPECS that were incorporated into other specs that presumed that even properly working switching power supplies (et. al.) couldn't POSSIBLY be generating EMI all the way up into the UHF Bands. There ARE EMI Filters that specify performance into the VHF and UHF Bands that might be better suited...and hopefully have a Capacitor across the INPUT Power Mains.

Ferrite "Clamp-On" devices aren't all that effective at UHF Freqs....more of a last resort measure to fix what should have been fixed in the original design. Here are some actual measurements showing only 6-10 dB attenuation of CONDUCTED EMI in UHF Band (where Ferrites are much less effective than at lower freqs). Simply adding a 0.1 uF High Voltage Capacitor across the Mains would be MUCH BETTER:
http://product.tdk.com/en/products/e...product_06.pdf

Here are more complete schematics showing that the EMI Filter's Ground Wire is INDEED connected to Power System's Safety Ground (depicted by the two "Ground" Symbols that are presumed to be interconnected):
http://www.saepower.com/pdf/emi-filter_catalog.pdf

One last thought....if the antenna is located well away from the A/C (like in the Attic or on the Roof), EMI levels from the A/C (and LED/fluorescent lights, etc) would drop dramatically.....
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post #32 of 126 Old 03-28-2015, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
Ferrite "Clamp-On" devices aren't all that effective at UHF Freqs....more of a last resort measure to fix what should have been fixed in the original design.
Agreed. This should be a last resort for the OP.
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post #33 of 126 Old 03-28-2015, 08:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
When installed, the EMI Filter should be all that's needed to get the job done....

BTW: I'm not surprised to see that Yun-pen didn't specify performance any higher than HF Band.....because most EMI Specs are were derived from MIL-SPECS that were incorporated into other specs that presumed that even properly working switching power supplies (et. al.) couldn't POSSIBLY be generating EMI all the way up into the UHF Bands. There ARE EMI Filters that specify performance into the VHF and UHF Bands that might be better suited...and hopefully have a Capacitor across the INPUT Power Mains.

Ferrite "Clamp-On" devices aren't all that effective at UHF Freqs....more of a last resort measure to fix what should have been fixed in the original design. Here are some actual measurements showing only 6-10 dB attenuation of CONDUCTED EMI in UHF Band (where Ferrites are much less effective than at lower freqs). Simply adding a 0.1 uF High Voltage Capacitor across the Mains would be MUCH BETTER:
http://product.tdk.com/en/products/e...product_06.pdf

Here are more complete schematics showing that the EMI Filter's Ground Wire is INDEED connected to Power System's Safety Ground (depicted by the two "Ground" Symbols that are presumed to be interconnected):
http://www.saepower.com/pdf/emi-filter_catalog.pdf

One last thought....if the antenna is located well away from the A/C (like in the Attic or on the Roof), EMI levels from the A/C (and LED/fluorescent lights, etc) would drop dramatically.....
When I first made this thing the ground wire had me really worried. I contacted a friend of mine who has electronic qualifications as I just didn't understand how ground could work properly in that schematic (I am a tradesman but not electric qual).

Keep in mind I put this device into a seperate power lead I had purchased as I did not want to chop into the TV's power lead. He said to me to join the earth wire in the power cable I had chopped in half.

However the TV's power lead doesn't have an earth wire so in my head I still don't know how that circuit is complete really....but I will have a look at those links you have posted to try and understand better.

I am off to the electronics shop to get some bits and also today I am going to inspect outside to see if I can hack into the outdoor antenna which could resolve this whole thing.
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post #34 of 126 Old 03-28-2015, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Just out of interest, can anyone recommend where to buy online a 'best' EMI filter I could buy? preferably not some consumer do everything thing just an EMI filter.
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post #35 of 126 Old 03-28-2015, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
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So it is NOT Symmetric...
So I DO or DO NOT reverse this device when wiring it for the air con then?

Which way for load line on the air con and which way for the TV?
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post #36 of 126 Old 03-28-2015, 10:15 PM
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I firmly believe you are WASTING YOUR TIME using the EMI Filter with your TV.....EMI generated in the A/C is most probably being radiated directly into your Rabbit-Ears Antenna....which would be totally UNAFFECTED by EMI Filter on TV.

Power Mains connects to the side of your EMI Filter that has ONLY two leads and the other side connects to 240 VAC input on your A/C. EMI Filter's Ground Wire connects to BOTH the Power Main Safety Ground, as well as the A/C's Safety Ground.

The fol. schematic is very close, except you are missing the Capacitor (typically 0.1 uF at 500-600+ max Voltage Rating) across the two Mains Input Power wires, which would provide additional attenuation for VHF and UHF Frequencies:
http://www.electronicproducts.com/im...01_OCT2008.gif

I can't recommend an appropriate EMI filter without knowing the approximate IN-RUSH CURRENT your A/C draws when it turns on....which is NOT easy to measure with most slow reacting VOM meters. A Real "White Socks" Engineer (like myself) would use an Oscilloscope across a low value resistor in-line with the power leads to measure the ACTUAL Transient Waveform. Since you probably don't have this info, I could guesstimate using say 10x the Operating Current or Power Rating....the User Manual says it should be marked on the label plate.....

I ALSO would recommend installing the EMI Filter INSIDE the A/C....preferably as close as possible to the spark gap transmitter source (Switch or Relay). The short power cord between the A/C and the EMI Filter actually acts as an ANTENNA, that is no doubt TUNED to operate generally in the VHF/UHF Frequency Bands.

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post #37 of 126 Old 03-28-2015, 11:43 PM - Thread Starter
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I firmly believe you are WASTING YOUR TIME using the EMI Filter with your TV.....EMI generated in the A/C is most probably being radiated directly into your Rabbit-Ears Antenna....which would be totally UNAFFECTED by EMI Filter on TV.

Power Mains connects to the side of your EMI Filter that has ONLY two leads and the other side connects to 240 VAC input on your A/C. EMI Filter's Ground Wire connects to BOTH the Power Main Safety Ground, as well as the A/C's Safety Ground.

The fol. schematic is very close, except you are missing the Capacitor (typically 0.1 uF at 500-600+ max Voltage Rating) across the two Mains Input Power wires, which would provide additional attenuation for VHF and UHF Frequencies:
http://www.electronicproducts.com/im...01_OCT2008.gif

I can't recommend an appropriate EMI filter without knowing the approximate IN-RUSH CURRENT your A/C draws when it turns on....which is NOT easy to measure with most slow reacting VOM meters. A Real Engineer (like myself) would use an Oscilloscope across a low value resistor in-line with the power leads to measure the ACTUAL Transient Waveform. Since you probably don't have this info, I could guesstimate using say 10x the Operating Current or Power Rating....the User Manual says it should be marked on the label plate.....

I ALSO would recommend installing the EMI Filter INSIDE the A/C....preferably as close as possible to the spark gap transmitter source (Switch or Relay). The short power cord between the A/C and the EMI Filter actually acts as an ANTENNA, that is no doubt TUNED to operate generally in the VHF/UHF Frequency Bands.
Thank you, I value your advice.
Can you please tell me though, and I know you dont feel that the EMI on the TV is of any use, but I have one on that and I am putting a seperate one on the AC. So can you please tell me have I wired the TV EMI up correctly.

I have the 2 terminal side (line) going to the TV. I have the 3 terminal side (load) going to the mains. is that wrong? I thought load would have been facing where the spike was coming from?
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post #38 of 126 Old 03-28-2015, 11:52 PM - Thread Starter
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This is the plate of the air con
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post #39 of 126 Old 03-29-2015, 01:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Checking in.

In total - I ended up making 2 EMI filters. I also put 2 ferrite beads on each lead (4 in total). I got this idea from here and also a web page with another guys EMI filter design. I know this was a bit of over kill but her it was only an extra few dollars for a few ferrite beads so why not.

I did not put the filter on the actual A/C cord or inside the unit - YET. I was trying to avoid doing that if possible. What I did do was try and be safe and sensible and purchased 2 standard 240 v power leads, cut them in the middle and placed the EMI filter in the middle, then connected the AC to one to power, and connected the TV to one to power.

BY THE WAY - I ended up turning the filter on the TV around to match the one I made for the Air Con. SO they now both have line (2 terminal side) facing mains, and load (3 terminal side) facing the device. If this is wrong for the TV and load should be facing the TV can you please let me know ASAP.

Anyway after spending the afternoon stuffing around with this it's made no difference.

So it looks like phase 2 is to look at putting the EMI filter inside the Air Con unit like I was trying to avoid (voids warranty etc). Or at least on the power cord as close to the unit as I can get.

I am not doing this today though. I will do it during the week.

See attached pic of the finished product.
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post #40 of 126 Old 03-29-2015, 04:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Long story short.

I couldn't wait it was annoying me too much.

You convinced me to pull my air con apart and put the EMI filter up inside the air con. Se attached photo. What appears to be the power source or the like sits just above this black box I have fitted inside it. I ended up using the black safety box as well as I did not want to risk anything turning live and hurting anyone.

Anyway. I have just switched the AC on and the TV. I waited for the air con to go through its 3 minute cycle then switch on the compressor. Sadly it still did the exact same thing and effected the screen/reception.

This is driving me insane.

Obviously all these filters are not going to work... I am going to have to resort to an external antenna by the looks. That was a waste of 2 days work and about $150 in various bits..... Learning experience though was a good thing.

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post #41 of 126 Old 03-29-2015, 06:18 AM
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LOL!
For all of the time wasted and expense for parts/materials, the suggestion in post #2 looks better all the time.
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post #42 of 126 Old 03-29-2015, 06:36 AM - Thread Starter
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LOL!
For all of the time wasted and expense for parts/materials, the suggestion in post #2 looks better all the time.
Not gona happen they are too expensive. Besides another portable air con will only do the same thing.
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post #43 of 126 Old 03-29-2015, 07:49 AM
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My initial thought was... since it was "new" exchange it for a replacement or perhaps a different make/brand.

OTOH, how do you know that another will do the same? Perhaps the existing unit is defective in some fashion.

Good luck with your experimentation. Look at the bright side....... if you don't resolve the issue, winter is on it's way!
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post #44 of 126 Old 03-29-2015, 08:02 AM - Thread Starter
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My initial thought was... since it was "new" exchange it for a replacement or perhaps a different make/brand.

OTOH, how do you know that another will do the same? Perhaps the existing unit is defective in some fashion.

Good luck with your experimentation. Look at the bright side....... if you don't resolve the issue, winter is on it's way!
I bought 2 identical air con units. I have them in 2 different rooms.

I have a Hisense 50K390PAD in my room with 1 x air con and the compressor causes this picture noise.

I have a Plasma in room 2 with one of these same air con units and it does the exact same thing.

Its not a unit fault. Possibly a design issue but not a fault.
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post #45 of 126 Old 03-29-2015, 08:18 AM
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You have spent a lot of time and money shooting in the dark. You have inserted two EMI filters without being certain that the interference is only through the mains. You need to go back to square one and determine if the interference is conducted by the mains or radiated through the air, or both.
The advice by ADTech makes a lot of sense to me.
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Originally Posted by ADTech View Post
Move your antenna as far away from the A/C unit as possible. The motor start circuit is radiating RF energy that the antenna is picking up, the interference is not coming through your mains.
Check your fly lead, if one is being used, and make sure it's well shielded and of good quality.
If you are using a rabbit ears antenna in the same room as the air conditioner, that's just too close. You need to set up a temporary antenna much further away from the air conditioner and the coax shield must be grounded (earthed).

Even with the antenna moved further away and the shield grounded, it is possible for the interference from the air conditioner to be radiated to the TV through its cabinet. You might need to also move the TV itself further away from the air conditioner as a test.

When you shielded the fly lead (for the antenna input at the TV?), did you ground that shield?
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Originally Posted by ADTech View Post
Can you run the TV off the UPS by battery power alone (without the UPS connected to the mains) for testing? That will tell you 100% if its RFI or a power surge delivered via the mains.
When you ran the TV on the UPS, was it disconnected from the mains and running on battery power?

When you inserted the EMI filter for the TV, was it earthed?

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=1304006&postcount=128
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You know - this ONLY happens when the television is on live TV via the antenna.
When the TV is on the HDMI channels it does not do this at all.
I'm thinking this is more of an RF antenna interference issue than power again you know..... But I guess it could still be power playing with the in-built tuner I am not sure which.
Interesting clue.
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Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
I firmly believe you are WASTING YOUR TIME using the EMI Filter with your TV.....EMI generated in the A/C is most probably being radiated directly into your Rabbit-Ears Antenna....which would be totally UNAFFECTED by EMI Filter on TV.
Power Mains connects to the side of your EMI Filter that has ONLY two leads and the other side connects to 240 VAC input on your A/C. EMI Filter's Ground Wire connects to BOTH the Power Main Safety Ground, as well as the A/C's Safety Ground.
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Originally Posted by Nicholas Goss View Post
Long story short. I couldn't wait it was annoying me too much.
Anyway. I have just switched the AC on and the TV. I waited for the air con to go through its 3 minute cycle then switch on the compressor. Sadly it still did the exact same thing and effected the screen/reception.
This is driving me insane.
Obviously all these filters are not going to work... I am going to have to resort to an external antenna by the looks. That was a waste of 2 days work and about $150 in various bits..... Learning experience though was a good thing.
Don't let it get to you; you will figure it out if you go step-by-step by process of elimination.
When Edison was inventing the incandescent light bulb, he was showing a guest around his lab. He showed his guest his workbook of 1000 experiments, with little success up to that point. His guest commented that it was 1000 failures. Edison replied that they weren't failures, he had discovered, and eliminated, 1000 ways that didn't work.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html

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post #46 of 126 Old 03-29-2015, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi @rabbit73 , thanks I appreciate your advice. Responses as below

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Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
You have spent a lot of time and money shooting in the dark. You have inserted two EMI filters without being certain that the interference is only through the mains. You need to go back to square one and determine if the interference is conducted by the mains or radiated through the air, or both.
The advice by ADTech makes a lot of sense to me.

If you are using a rabbit ears antenna in the same room as the air conditioner, that's just too close. You need to set up a temporary antenna much further away from the air conditioner and the coax shield must be grounded (earthed).

Even with the antenna moved further away and the shield grounded, it is possible for the interference from the air conditioner to be radiated to the TV through its cabinet. You might need to also move the TV itself further away from the air conditioner as a test.
Moving the TV is not an option. The air con is right next to the TV and I can't move it away either. There just is not physically enough room. This house is not mine. I only have 1 bedroom to fit all my stuff in and I don't have access to a lounge room. This is why everything is stuffed into my bedroom. See attached pic to see what I mean.

The air con needs the window so I cant move that. And as you will see there just is no where else to put the TV.

The only 1 thing I CAN move is the antenna. So I will go down the shop and by a roll of cable and move the rabbit ears to another room. I am still to investigate properly hacking into the external antenna with a splitter - the external antenna belongs to the people who own this house not me or I would have used it in the first place. As you can understand drilling holes in the wall for an external antenna is going to be a major drama.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
When you shielded the fly lead (for the antenna input at the TV?), did you ground that shield?
Can you explain to me how to properly ground a fly lead? What do I ground it to and how to I connect a ground wire to an antenna?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
When you ran the TV on the UPS, was it disconnected from the mains and running on battery power?
No I have not performed this test as yet. With 2 EMI filters and 4 ferrite beads it has to be radiating to the antenna not up the mains power...well maybe not HAS TO but seems to... I guess that switch could still be going up the mains but I am at the point where I believe its radiating to the antenna.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
When you inserted the EMI filter for the TV, was it earthed?
How do you mean was it earthed? There is an earth terminal on the EMI filter, and the earth wire for both sides of the power lead goto that. It cannot physically connect to an earth as it's in a plastic safety box so that no-one gets zapped with 240 volts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=1304006&postcount=128
Interesting clue.

Don't let it get to you; you will figure it out if you go step-by-step by process of elimination.
When Edison was inventing the incandescent light bulb, he was showing a guest around his lab. He showed his guest his workbook of 1000 experiments, with little success up to that point. His guest commented that it was 1000 failures. Edison replied that they weren't failures, he had discovered, and eliminated, 1000 ways that didn't work.
This is true. It does get frustrating. I get frustrated because I know that if I had a lounge room like a normal person with an external antenna this probably wouldn't be an issue. but because I am space limited it is an issue.

You have to remember I am in Australia and in summer here is gets really hot, up to 40 degree C so the air con is not for luxury, it's for survival
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post #47 of 126 Old 03-29-2015, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
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BTW - when we are talking about shielding the fly lead, I bought a roll of copper RFI / EMI shielding tape and wrapped it around the connections. I have no idea how one is to ground shielding tape? Its proper shielding tape for antenna usage. Why would you need to ground that?

See attached photo.
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post #48 of 126 Old 03-29-2015, 10:41 AM
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The side of the EMI Filter with THREE leads is INTENDED to face the LOAD (i.e. A/C or TV), in order to minimize the Common and Differential Mode Noise, as was mentioned in the fol. App Note I cited earlier:
http://www.digikey.com/Web%20Export/...f?redirected=1

A more complete description on HOW this is done is found here:
http://www.murata.com/~/media/webren...ow/26to30.ashx

HOWEVER, at VHF/UHF Freqs, where electrical wires act as ANTENNAS, the above arguments don't really apply and it PROBABLY works more or less the same in either direction....and it's MISSING that 0.1 uF Capacitor for additional VHF/UHF Suppression I mentioned earlier.

================================================== =
A/C nameplate indicates a [Running, probably "Typical"] Current of 6.4 A in A/C Mode with Rated Current of 7.2 A [probably "MAX Rated"].....and "LRA of Compressor" [Locked Rotor Amperage] is 21 A. So In-Rush Current is NOT specified.

I've seen "guidelines" that indicate that "typical" A/C Compressor In-Rush current might be from 4x to 8x the Running Current....so I would assume 8 x 7.2 = 57.6 A, rounded up to In-Rush Current ~ 60 A [for perhaps a couple seconds] is a good number to work with and hopefully will NOT maintain that level long enough to trip a typical slow-blow Circuit Breaker. LRA of 21 A would only apply when the A/C rotator hangs up and would be a LONG-TERM overload that SHOULD trip that circuit's 15A or 20 A Circuit Breaker....hopefully before melting down your EMI Filter that is only rated for 10 A.

Now I can start looking for a "better", suitable EMI Filter....with a 20+ A rating....and hopefully SPECS that include VHF/UHF Suppression.

First of all, let's look at spec for your EXISTING YenPenYG10T5 EMI Filter:
http://www.produktinfo.conrad.com/da...L_2x0_3_mH.pdf
Charts only go up to 50 MHz, but seems to be maintaining more than 40 dB Suppression at that frequency.
I found two EPCOS 20A EMI Filters on the Conrad website, with charts going up to 100 MHz, but it looks like they only have about 35 dB Suppression at that frequency....and I would hope we could do a LOT better with a Filter actually DESIGNED to suppress VHF/UHF Freqs.

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post #49 of 126 Old 03-29-2015, 11:14 AM
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I only have 1 bedroom to fit all my stuff in and I don't have access to a lounge room. This is why everything is stuffed into my bedroom. See attached pic to see what I mean.
Thanks for the photo. You certainly don't have much room. Who is your friend sleeping in the basket?
Quote:
The only 1 thing I CAN move is the antenna. So I will go down the shop and by a roll of cable and move the rabbit ears to another room.
That's a good idea. Hopefully, the air conditioner in that room will not be running. The coax shield should be grounded to the electrical system ground to maintain the shielding properties of the coax to prevent the ingress of interference. We use a grounding block to do that:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=CM3274&utm_campaign=base&utm_medium=or ganic&utm_source=google_base&gclid=CNXBz5COzsQCFYh gfgodAbUA_w

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...&postcount=128

I am not familiar with your electrical systems, but our AC outlets have three female terminals; two slots for the AC and one round hole for the grounding pin of the plug on the power cord of equipment. Wiki says you have type I, C, and A. What type of plug does the TV have? We use type A for two-wire power cords that don't have a third grounding conductor (most of our TVs) and type B three-wire power cords.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity_by_country
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/hsehld.html
For your second test you should add your UPS running on battery and not connected to the mains.
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Can you explain to me how to properly ground a fly lead? What do I ground it to and how to I connect a ground wire to an antenna?
Quote:
BTW - when we are talking about shielding the fly lead, I bought a roll of copper RFI / EMI shielding tape and wrapped it around the connections. I have no idea how one is to ground shielding tape? Its proper shielding tape for antenna usage. Why would you need to ground that?
The copper foil must be connected to the coax shield to be effective.
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You have to remember I am in Australia and in summer here is gets really hot, up to 40 degree C so the air con is not for luxury, it's for survival
I understand about the differences in time and seasons. I'm an amateur radio ham and have talked to many hams in Australia.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html

Last edited by rabbit73; 03-29-2015 at 11:20 AM.
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post #50 of 126 Old 03-29-2015, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Nicholas Goss View Post
Hi guys. Hoping someone can help as I am spending money to solve this and thought I was getting somewhere but have discovered I am not.

I have a 55" Hisense LED TV. Its a 50K390PAD if you must know.

Anyway. I have a portable window air conditioner / conditioning that's brand new a works great. It's summer and I'm in Australia so yes I do really need it on with the temp's we get in Queensland.

The issue is when the compressor switches on or off the TV signal is interfered with, appearing almost like you knock the antenna over and stand it back up. I am also paranoid about this possibly doing damage to the TV eventually as I think its more of a power spike thing than a reception thing.

Now the power for the air con is on a different power point. I cannot say different circuit as I do not know the house circuit schematics, but its not drawing from the same power point.

So anyway, I went and bought a UPS battery back up hoping that if the TV ran off that it would clean up the power signal to the TV.

It is still happening, just not as bad. It's still enough to make the sound go away for a second and the picture to jump. I'd say about half as bad as what it was.

How do I stop this happening?? The UPS just cost me $130 so I am a bit peeved that this did not solve the issue.

Didn't have a chance to read the replies, yet it sounds like a ground loop to me. When I upgraded my subwoofer it did nearly the same. For $20 on Amazon I got a filter that resolved it, and was very impressed with the improvement from the low priced part. It's white with blue letters, can give you the name if you'd like to know. They're weren't many options to choose from when I got mine, so it should be easy to find. Recommend anyone that's running a 5.1 setup to get one
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post #51 of 126 Old 03-29-2015, 12:25 PM
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I searched Mouser On-Line Catalog (www.mouser.com) for 20+ A EMI Filters (mostly from CORCOM), which begin on pg 2380, finding the fol. BEST one at a reasonable price:
http://www.mouser.com/catalog/catalogusd/647/2380.pdf

Corcom 20VB1 (or 3 or 6) (US $20.31 plus s/h), Common/Differential Noise Suppression = 70/70 dB (Typical) at 30 MHz and what looks like a smooth curve for higher freqs:
http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/418/NG_CS...611-370049.pdf
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...56gkkmBiM7I%3d

You can use this as a benchmark if you want to investigate other alternatives that might be more readily available to you.....s/h could be significantly more unless you have some local sources...
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post #52 of 126 Old 03-29-2015, 12:33 PM
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Although I understand Aussie-speak (aka "Brit-speak") for flylead....I don't understand your question re "grounding" it....the outer shield on the Coax connects to the Outer Metal on the Connector which is grounded as it is attached to the matching 75-ohm connector on your TV. NO other grounding required, unless you use an OUTDOOR Antenna, which also requires a Coax Ground Block (connected to "Ground") near the house entry point for electrostatic discharge and lightning protection.
http://www.radioandtelly.co.uk/connectors.html

When you wrap the coax, trying to increase the shielding effectiveness against EMI ingress, ideally you should somehow ensure that there is as SHORT as possible connection wire to any METAL connection point on the TV that is known to be connected to it's Safety Ground pin on the power cable....such as the outer metal connector on an unused RCA jack....or a convenient screw...or whatever. Ungrounded Shielding material also can help protect against EMI ingress. BUT NEITHER of these will be effective until you actually MOVE the Antenna away from the location of the TV, since it's a MUCH BETTER Antenna for picking up airborne EMI.

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post #53 of 126 Old 03-29-2015, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
I searched Mouser On-Line Catalog (www.mouser.com) for 20+ A EMI Filters (mostly from CORCOM), which begin on pg 2380, finding the fol. BEST one at a reasonable price:
http://www.mouser.com/catalog/catalogusd/647/2380.pdf

Corcom 20VB1 (or 3 or 6) (US $20.31 plus s/h), Common/Differential Noise Suppression = 70/70 dB (Typical) at 30 MHz and what looks like a smooth curve for higher freqs:
http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/418/NG_CS...611-370049.pdf
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...56gkkmBiM7I%3d

You can use this as a benchmark if you want to investigate other alternatives that might be more readily available to you.....s/h could be significantly more unless you have some local sources...
Mate I went to those links and looked through mouser. I can't for the life of me find the exact unit for $20.31.

I found 20VB1 but cant find 20VB3 or 20VB6 on there.

I also cannot find anything on those links where it refers to 100 MHz

However I have asked a couple of my local electronics stores if they stock. or if they can get for me, something matching the specs of 20VB1 @ 20amps.

Does this sound like I am on the right track? Sorry its just a bit hard to follow when things do not pair up on the pages I am looking at.
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post #54 of 126 Old 03-29-2015, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the photo. You certainly don't have much room. Who is your friend sleeping in the basket?
His name is George

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Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
That's a good idea. Hopefully, the air conditioner in that room will not be running. The coax shield should be grounded to the electrical system ground to maintain the shielding properties of the coax to prevent the ingress of interference. We use a grounding block to do that:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=CM3274&utm_campaign=base&utm_medium=or ganic&utm_source=google_base&gclid=CNXBz5COzsQCFYh gfgodAbUA_w

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...&postcount=128
I will have to check this out....

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Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
I am not familiar with your electrical systems, but our AC outlets have three female terminals; two slots for the AC and one round hole for the grounding pin of the plug on the power cord of equipment. Wiki says you have type I, C, and A. What type of plug does the TV have? We use type A for two-wire power cords that don't have a third grounding conductor (most of our TVs) and type B three-wire power cords.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity_by_country
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/hsehld.html
For your second test you should add your UPS running on battery and not connected to the mains.
Exactly the same as yours only the plugs are a different shape and we are 240 volts.

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The copper foil must be connected to the coax shield to be effective.
I understand about the differences in time and seasons. I'm an amateur radio ham and have talked to many hams in Australia.
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post #55 of 126 Old 03-29-2015, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Although I understand Aussie-speak (aka "Brit-speak") for flylead....I don't understand your question re "grounding" it...
Sorry buddy this was linked to a comment from @rabbit73
Flylead I actually picked up from here.... antenna cable would be the correct term.

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Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
.the outer shield on the Coax connects to the Outer Metal on the Connector which is grounded as it is attached to the matching 75-ohm connector on your TV. NO other grounding required, unless you use an OUTDOOR Antenna, which also requires a Coax Ground Block (connected to "Ground") near the house entry point for electrostatic discharge and lightning protection.
http://www.radioandtelly.co.uk/connectors.html

When you wrap the coax, trying to increase the shielding effectiveness against EMI ingress, ideally you should somehow ensure that there is as SHORT as possible connection wire to any METAL connection point on the TV that is known to be connected to it's Safety Ground pin on the power cable....such as the outer metal connector on an unused RCA jack....or a convenient screw...or whatever. Ungrounded Shielding material also can help protect against EMI ingress. BUT NEITHER of these will be effective until you actually MOVE the Antenna away from the location of the TV, since it's a MUCH BETTER Antenna for picking up airborne EMI.
Interesting what your saying is the opposite to @rabbit73
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post #56 of 126 Old 03-29-2015, 05:28 PM
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Interesting what your saying is the opposite to @rabbit73
Not really; holl_ands is correct in saying that here in the US a grounding block is not REQUIRED by the NEC (Electrical Code) for an indoor aerial. I agree with that.

What I am saying is that you NEED to ground (earth) the shield of the antenna coax to prevent the ingress of interference from the air conditioner into the aerial system. The easiest way to do that is to attach your coax to a grounding block, and connect the body of the block to the ground wires of your electrical system.

If the electrical system uses a metal cold water pipe for its earth connection, then that can be used for a ground connection. If not, then maybe you have an AC outlet with a grounding terminal.

Do you have a friend who is an electrician or aerial installer (CAI)?

If the shield of the coax makes a connection to the antenna connector of the TV, the TV tuner is also protected from ingress of the air-born interference.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html

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post #57 of 126 Old 03-29-2015, 06:11 PM
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What I am saying is that you NEED to ground (earth) the shield of the antenna coax to prevent the ingress of interference from the air conditioner into the aerial system. The easiest way to do that is to attach your coax to a grounding block, and connect the body of the block to the ground wires of your electrical system.

That will give you a DC ground but not an RF ground. No one tries to get an Earth ground at UHF because the lead can't be more than an inch or so long between the Earth ground and what you're trying to ground. Anything longer than a couple of inches acts like an antenna.
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post #58 of 126 Old 03-29-2015, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
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That will give you a DC ground but not an RF ground. No one tries to get an Earth ground at UHF because the lead can't be more than an inch or so long between the Earth ground and what you're trying to ground. Anything longer than a couple of inches acts like an antenna.
oh yipeeee.... so what do you do then, do you ground the coax antenna cable or not @Calaveras ?
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post #59 of 126 Old 03-29-2015, 06:22 PM
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Nicholas Goss:

I think it's time to try some tests for yourself to see what works, before all these "experts" here thoroughly confuse you.

Grounding the coax will also protect you from leakage current shock.
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/950238

good links in that document
http://www.unitechelectronics.com/sparks.htm
http://archive.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_107106/article.html

Last edited by rabbit73; 03-29-2015 at 06:41 PM.
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post #60 of 126 Old 03-29-2015, 07:49 PM
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Try a different air conditioner?
Really. What do they cost? $400? Do you have a friend you can swap with?
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