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post #931 of 1770 Old 01-23-2018, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by sneals2000 View Post
Yep - possibly a good idea. Having helped - tangentially - with the development of HLG, I'm quite keen to see it explained correctly.

(And this is the Technical area of the AV Science forum after all )
Then please have at it. I also think it'd be a great addition. Let me know if I can be of assistance.
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post #932 of 1770 Old 01-23-2018, 12:18 PM
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"Blue Planet II" discussion moved to the "Blue Planet II" thread.

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post #933 of 1770 Old 02-01-2018, 01:36 PM
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ATSC 3.0
ATSC 3.0 Rollout Can Begin Next Month
Federal Register to publish final Rule Feb. 2
By John Eggerton - TVTechnology - February 1, 2018

WASHINGTON—Broadcasters will soon get the green flag on their race to an interactive, geo-targeted, video-on-demand future. The FCC's framework for rolling out a new ATSC 3.0 advanced television transmission standard will become effective the first week in March.

The Federal Register signaled Thursday, Feb. 1, that the final rule for allowing broadcasters to roll out the standard on a "market-driven, voluntary basis" will publish Feb. 2, with the rule going into effect 30 days after that, according to the FCC.

The new standard, which was championed by broadcasters, emergency alert groups and the Consumer Technology Association, is expected to drive sales of the 4K TV's whose higher-resolution pictures can be delivered by the new standard, and give broadcasters a competitive foothold in the interactive, targeted advertising, IP world.

A politically divided FCC voted 3-2 on Nov. 16 to allow for the voluntary rollout of the standard. That came over the objections of Democrats on the commission and in Congress, who argued that it was a gift to Sinclair or a rush to a standard that could leave viewers paying for the change through new TV's or equipment of higher cable prices.

ATSC 3.0 will allow TV stations to do geo-targeted ads and emergency alerts, video on demand and other interactive services using a broadband return path for viewers with Internet access, and provide those high-high definition 4K pictures.

While most of the rule will become effective in early March, three portions will not because they require information collection, which must first get the OK of the Office of Management and Budget per the Paperwork Reduction Act, which requires new regs that entail new information collection to be vetted to make sure those are not overly burdensome.

So, the portions of the rule that will not become effective until OMB signs off on their info collection (and that sign-off is also published in the Register) are those dealing with simulcasting agreements between stations (sections 73.3801, 73.6029, 74.782)

As part of the rule, stations in a market that want to roll out the transmission standard can join forces (a kind of Jack Spratt arrangement(, with one transmitting both station's signals in ATSC 3.0, and the other both signals in the current ATSC 1. format--ATSC 3.0 is not backward compatible (it requires a new set or adaptor), so the FCC wants to make sure that, for at least the first few years of the rollout--signals are available in both formats.

Broadcasters will have a chance to make a case for flash-cutting to ATSC 3.0 rather than simulcasting, and Low Power TV's will be allowed to flash cut without simulcasting. MVPDs must continue to carry ATSC signals but don't have to carry the new 3.0 signals. Broadcasters can combine retrans negotiations for new ATSC 3.0 and existing 1.0 signals, which cable operators had opposed.

Entire article here: http://www.tvtechnology.com/atsc3/00...t-month/282663

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post #934 of 1770 Old 02-01-2018, 02:04 PM
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Stations don't have 4k content to roll out even if they want to jump on board now.

Networks have been silent right?

Sinclair can produce their editorial in 4k and upgrade their stations to transmit it, presumably.
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post #935 of 1770 Old 02-01-2018, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
Stations don't have 4k content to roll out even if they want to jump on board now.
I don't think it's about 4k. I think it's about targeted advertising and internet integration.

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Networks have been silent right?
Some of their movements speak louder than words. IMO, NBC selling WNBC's spectrum, for instance. To me, this makes WNJU difficult to do the channel-sharing-ATSC 3.0-simulcast thing. If they were sold on ATSC 3.0, I don't think they would have done that. WNBC is the flagship.

No, my money on 4k content outside of streaming is cable/DSS. If NBC is going to give us LIVE 4k Olympics, it'll be where they can charge a premium for it. Ditto FS1 and ESPN. Gotta recover the costs, somehow.
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post #936 of 1770 Old 02-01-2018, 02:52 PM
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Good luck with the targeted advertising. Who's going to get an ATSC 3.0 tuner for their UHD TVs or even use those that come with it for non 4k programming?

And nobody is going to bother tuning in from their mobile devices. There won't be useful content anyways. Not like network affiliates will be able to stream NFL games to phones because Verizon will complain about that.
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post #937 of 1770 Old 02-01-2018, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
Good luck with the targeted advertising. Who's going to get an ATSC 3.0 tuner for their UHD TVs or even use those that come with it for non 4k programming?

And nobody is going to bother tuning in from their mobile devices. There won't be useful content anyways. Not like network affiliates will be able to stream NFL games to phones because Verizon will complain about that.
Oh, I totally agree. The only glimmer of hope for the targeted advertising is the fact broadcasters can now include ATSC 3.0 cable carriage as part of their retrans negotiations. That'll help, but it's still SO far off and dependent on SO many things to happen that I think all the talk about it is just designed to run up stock prices.

That said, geek that I am, I'll be the first on the block with SOMEthing that tunes ATSC 3.0 the second someone in either of my home cities lights up.
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post #938 of 1770 Old 02-02-2018, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
Oh, I totally agree. The only glimmer of hope for the targeted advertising is the fact broadcasters can now include ATSC 3.0 cable carriage as part of their retrans negotiations. That'll help, but it's still SO far off and dependent on SO many things to happen that I think all the talk about it is just designed to run up stock prices.

That said, geek that I am, I'll be the first on the block with SOMEthing that tunes ATSC 3.0 the second someone in either of my home cities lights up.
Yup... I'm in the Portland, OR broadcast area and from what I understand they've been testing ATSC 3.0 locally. As soon as SiliconDust releases an ATSC 3.0 HDHomerun I'll have one on my network...
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post #939 of 1770 Old 02-02-2018, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Lost Dog View Post
As soon as SiliconDust releases an ATSC 3.0 HDHomerun I'll have one on my network...
That is what I'm thinking about doing, implement a LAN based network TV for home.

From what I've read, (this is not my day job) 4K is not as attractive to broadcasters as HDR. HDR is perceived as much improved over existing HD and does not consume nearly as much bandwidth as 4K.

I find the targeted ads creepie so will need to see how that plays out.

The advanced emergency alerting seems like an useful feature, all depends on how often alerts get generated and how well targeted. I'm not crazy about having the TV on 24/7 just to be ready to receive an alert. A lot depends on how effective TV manufacturers are at minimizing standby power consumption. We had a SAME weather radio for a while but a lot of the alerts were not relevant so I did not replace it when it failed.

At least in the short term we are able to receive more TV stations, due to repack transmitter sharing so that was unexpected on my part. Being in a deep fringe area hopefully ATSC 3.0 will be more robust then 1.0.

/tom
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post #940 of 1770 Old 02-02-2018, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
Good luck with the targeted advertising. Who's going to get an ATSC 3.0 tuner for their UHD TVs or even use those that come with it for non 4k programming?

And nobody is going to bother tuning in from their mobile devices. There won't be useful content anyways. Not like network affiliates will be able to stream NFL games to phones because Verizon will complain about that.
I thought Verizon blacked out local market games? This would allow broadcasters to do it.

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Verizon HAD an exclusive on mobile phone NFL games. Starting last month, you could watch via Yahoo Sports or the NFL Mobile app on any carrier. BUT.. it's still an exclusive agreement for mobile phone streaming of in-market games (DirecTV has out-of-market streaming).

Of course, by the time there's enough phones with enabled 3.0 chips in them for this to BE an issue, the whole NFL rights thing could be very different. New negotiations start either Fall of 2019 or early 2020.

That said, we still don't have any real-world testing of VHF ATSC 3.0 reception inside of a smart phone. While more robust, I still have a feeling that, without an antenna, VHF reception is going to be troublesome enough to make streaming the better choice.

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post #942 of 1770 Old 02-02-2018, 02:14 PM
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I see the NFL jumped on the five year deal that Fox offered. Since NBC and CBS bid less than the previous year.

I'm still wondering if TiVo will have an ATSC 3.0 solution in a year or two. I'll want to get something if it isn't too expensive.
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post #943 of 1770 Old 02-02-2018, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Tschmidt View Post
I find the targeted ads creepie so will need to see how that plays out.

The advanced emergency alerting seems like an useful feature, all depends on how often alerts get generated and how well targeted. I'm not crazy about having the TV on 24/7 just to be ready to receive an alert. A lot depends on how effective TV manufacturers are at minimizing standby power consumption. We had a SAME weather radio for a while but a lot of the alerts were not relevant so I did not replace it when it failed.
New TVs with built-in 3.0 tuners won't have to be left on (just plugged in) in order to receive those emergency alerts. The 3.0 standard allows those alerts to auto-power-on compatible devices.

As for targeted ads, well, better stay off the internet. It's full of 'em. Google and Facebook know what to sell you!

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I see the NFL jumped on the five year deal that Fox offered. Since NBC and CBS bid less than the previous year.

I'm still wondering if TiVo will have an ATSC 3.0 solution in a year or two. I'll want to get something if it isn't too expensive.
The only thing I've seen on that topic is in this article from the recent CES:

"Elsewhere on the technical front, in response to TWICE’s query on TiVo’s plans for ATSC 3.0, there was no firm commitment. However, it’s looking into it for a possible introduction in fall 2019. "

Honestly, who knows what will be going on with TiVo come 18 months from now. They may be completely out of the retail DVR business (or OTOH fully recommitted to it). There's one or more private equity groups who are reportedly sniffing around the company, interested in acquiring it and taking it private. They just got a new CEO and things have only recently settled down after the merger with Rovi. Lots of uncertainty, it seems.
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post #944 of 1770 Old 02-02-2018, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Tschmidt View Post
...

I'm not crazy about having the TV on 24/7 just to be ready to receive an alert.
...
/tom
If the HDTV mfg has implemented it, ATSC 1.0 / 2.0 allows a station to tune "your" HDTV to another station that has fast breaking news.

With ATSC 3.0 they can turn your HDTV on. The is if the mfg follows the standard and the station choses to do it.

The former I stumbled across in the ATSC 1.0 / 2.0 spec while looking for the now common 480i 16:9 mode.

The latter likely was seen in the "ATSC3 Silo" http://www.tvtechnology.com/atsc3 .

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Parameter, to awaken compatible receivers when in standby or sleep mode, and
Quote:
A/321 (System Discovery and Signaling) describes the ATSC 3.0 bootstrap, which is the initial discovery and entry point in the ATSC 3.0 waveform. The bootstrap is the most robust part of the transmission signal, containing 3 symbols each with 8 bits. In the bootstrap is a “wakeup” field which—if enabled—would rouse the ATSC 3.0 television receiver from standby or sleep mode if an urgent emergency message is accompanied by a “wakeup” request.
http://www.tvtechnology.com/atsc3/00...rmation/281316

SHF

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post #945 of 1770 Old 02-03-2018, 07:51 AM
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Some of their movements speak louder than words. IMO, NBC selling WNBC's spectrum, for instance. To me, this makes WNJU difficult to do the channel-sharing-ATSC 3.0-simulcast thing. If they were sold on ATSC 3.0, I don't think they would have done that. WNBC is the flagship.
Unfortunately, NBCU/Comcast just doesn't care about VQ. Their cable is total garbage, and more and more NBC stations are channel sharing now, with a significant drop in VQ. The NYC DMA is going to be a nightmare to transition over to 3.0, as there is so little spectrum and so much running on it, and in the neighboring markets. It's already kind of a mess, and it's not going to get better anytime soon. I think we'll see 1080i/p on 3.0, as then they can put like 10 channels or something on one transmitter, making the whole channel sharing thing a LOT easier.

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No, my money on 4k content outside of streaming is cable/DSS. If NBC is going to give us LIVE 4k Olympics, it'll be where they can charge a premium for it. Ditto FS1 and ESPN. Gotta recover the costs, somehow.
I would agree. They are going to want their dough. However, that doesn't match up well with Comcast's capabilities right now with bitrate-starved HD cable channels. If anything, I think DirecTV would push them to provide 4k feeds of Tokyo to DirecTV ahead of when Comcast is capable of carrying them.

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Oh, I totally agree. The only glimmer of hope for the targeted advertising is the fact broadcasters can now include ATSC 3.0 cable carriage as part of their retrans negotiations.
WHAT?!? That's word salad right there. ATSC 3.0 is OTA, not cable, and has little to do with cable. For cable companies that don't have fiber feeds, they can just convert to new ATSC 3.0 equipment to pick up the stations, but that has nothing to do with how they are transmitted on cable, via QAM. Nothing would stop OTA channels from making ad-targeted versions of their channel for different cable plants and delivering them via fiber today, but that sounds like a lot of work for the small benefit. Cable is largely independent of what OTA is doing.

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That is what I'm thinking about doing, implement a LAN based network TV for home.
It's not quite the same thing that 3.0 will do, but I already have that basic functionality with my TiVo Roamio and Minis. One RF signal into the Roamio, Ethernet from there.

Quote:
At least in the short term we are able to receive more TV stations, due to repack transmitter sharing so that was unexpected on my part. Being in a deep fringe area hopefully ATSC 3.0 will be more robust then 1.0.
The Boston market is a screwed up mess of a market with all the channel sharing, and just the shape of the DMA in the first place, with the DMA technically stretching up into the Lakes Region, where it would be nearly impossible to get anything from Needham OTA. I feel bad for you guys, although we're starting to see channel sharing down here in Hartford-New Haven too.

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Honestly, who knows what will be going on with TiVo come 18 months from now. They may be completely out of the retail DVR business (or OTOH fully recommitted to it). There's one or more private equity groups who are reportedly sniffing around the company, interested in acquiring it and taking it private. They just got a new CEO and things have only recently settled down after the merger with Rovi. Lots of uncertainty, it seems.
I sure hope they do! Rovi doesn't want to do hardware, but they have no issue licencing their software to other companies to make the boxes. We might actually see more TiVo hardware options out there. I also hope that, if anything, they are more boring and more square, as the Bolt lineup went a bit off the rails design wise. I like the new Mini, it's very understated and blends in with other AV equipment well.
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post #946 of 1770 Old 02-03-2018, 09:49 AM
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Just got word back from Bonnie Beeman of Airwavz.tv about pricing on that ATSC 3.0 stick her company produced.

$895

At this rate, after any potential regulatory and shipping fees it’s more economically justifiable to import a Korean box assuming those even support AC-4 alongside MPEG-H
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post #947 of 1770 Old 02-03-2018, 01:17 PM
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If anything, I think DirecTV would push them to provide 4k feeds of Tokyo to DirecTV ahead of when Comcast is capable of carrying them.
It's AT&T that forces that because they're NBC's biggest Olympic sponsor. Were it not for AT&T owning DirecTV, it's doubtful this would happen until Comcast could better carry it.


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WHAT? ATSC 3.0 is OTA, not cable, and has little to do with cable. For cable companies that don't have fiber feeds, they can just convert to new ATSC 3.0 equipment to pick up the stations, but that has nothing to do with how they are transmitted on cable, via QAM.
Come on. I certainly didn't mean ATSC 3.0 signals down cable lines. We all know that's not happening. I meant retrans deals with local stations, something cable compnies have been resisting to no avail. Cablecos smell trouble: Stations or station groups negotiating 3.0 carr-- uh.. retrans with all the bells and whistles intact. For broadcasters, rolling out interactive content or targeted ads or whatever else, means it has to work for the viewer no matter how that viewer obtains the station's programming. I think Sinclair was counting on the FCC rejecting cable companies' objections. Geo-targeted advertising JUST for the OTA crowd isn't worth much. If you can do it for nearly every viewer, THEN you have something.

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Nothing would stop OTA channels from making ad-targeted versions of their channel for different cable plants and delivering them via fiber today...
That's already happening.

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post #948 of 1770 Old 02-03-2018, 02:26 PM
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Just got word back from Bonnie Beeman of Airwavz.tv about pricing on that ATSC 3.0 stick her company produced.

$895

At this rate, after any potential regulatory and shipping fees it’s more economically justifiable to import a Korean box assuming those even support AC-4 alongside MPEG-H
Don't forget that the first ATSC 1.0 receivers were very expensive. In 2003, I paid $325 for an open box Zenith HDV420, and according to research online, retail prices at the time were $500-$800. And digital TV had been around for a few years by then.

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Originally Posted by kc9pke View Post
Just got word back from Bonnie Beeman of Airwavz.tv about pricing on that ATSC 3.0 stick her company produced.

$895
...
Thanks for the info! Here's the web page for the RedZone Receiver: https://redzonereceiver.tv/
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When ATSC 3.0 tuners hit the market next year, I expect we'll see them in two main varieties: cheaper HDMI dongles that look sort of like a Chromecast, which will provide signals to a single TV....
Quote:
Originally Posted by kc9pke View Post
Just got word back from Bonnie Beeman of Airwavz.tv about pricing on that ATSC 3.0 stick her company produced.

$895
Someone owes me a lunch.

Though, honestly, I expected the first device to clock in around half this price.

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post #951 of 1770 Old 02-03-2018, 07:47 PM
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I meant retrans deals with local stations, something cable compnies have been resisting to no avail. Cablecos smell trouble: Stations or station groups negotiating 3.0 carr-- uh.. retrans with all the bells and whistles intact. For broadcasters, rolling out interactive content or targeted ads or whatever else, means it has to work for the viewer no matter how that viewer obtains the station's programming.
IOW, cable won't be using ATSC 3.0 modulation - they'll probably stick with QAM - but the stations want them to update all their cable boxes so that all the new ATSC 3.0 "features" work on cable too.

I bet it's even worse, though. At least with OTA, you can choose not to connect your ATSC 3.0 tuner to the Internet to avoid targeted ads and the tracking that inevitably goes with them. But virtually all cable cos. are ISPs too; so even if you don't have Internet service from your cable co., they'll probably provide "just enough" Internet service to make sure those targeted ads and tracking work! Oh - and the cable co. knows exactly where you live, too; with OTA and user-provided Internet, you could be using a VPN that disguises your actual location.
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post #952 of 1770 Old 02-03-2018, 07:53 PM
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Thanks for the info! Here's the web page for the RedZone Receiver: https://redzonereceiver.tv/
I see it's a USB tuner for a PC.

No Ethernet connector though; just USB and an F-connector for the antenna. Does the PC provide the Internet connectivity for those targeted ads?
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Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post
... Does the PC provide the Internet connectivity for those targeted ads?
I would think that's a safe bet, via the Airwavz.tv software, provided the computer is connected to the Internet. And I'd bet Airwavz.tv's collects data that way too! But, maybe a router can block it?
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post #954 of 1770 Old 02-03-2018, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by pachinko View Post
I would think that's a safe bet, via the Airwavz.tv software, provided the computer is connected to the Internet. And I'd bet Airwavz.tv's collects data that way too! But, maybe a router can block it?
Figure out the IP addresses it’s homing back to using Wireshark and then configure a hosts file appropriately to keep the data from getting out
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post #955 of 1770 Old 02-03-2018, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by kc9pke View Post
Figure out the IP addresses it’s homing back to using Wireshark and then configure a hosts file appropriately to keep the data from getting out
Yep, that's how, unless the RedZone Receiver software requires an Internet connection to function properly (like provide a Guide). Thus far, there's not much about this gizmo on their web page, so no way to know.
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post #956 of 1770 Old 02-03-2018, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
Don't forget that the first ATSC 1.0 receivers were very expensive. In 2003, I paid $325 for an open box Zenith HDV420, and according to research online, retail prices at the time were $500-$800. And digital TV had been around for a few years by then.

- Trip
Yes. I remember paying $400 each for my two HiPix cards in 2001. But it was such a huge leap from SD analog to HD that I didn't mind. I had to setup dedicated PCs for each one.

With ATSC 3.0, I really don't see a big benefit for me. So I have zero desire to spend a bunch of money on it . I still want to get a 3.0 capable device. But not for many hundreds of dollars.

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post #957 of 1770 Old 02-03-2018, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by pachinko View Post
Yep, that's how, unless the RedZone Receiver software requires an Internet connection to function properly (like provide a Guide). Thus far, there's not much about this gizmo on their web page, so no way to know.
I don’t think they’d go as far as to require the device to be connected. Most companies market antenna TV as something you might be able to use in absence of the internet and all that... Sounds counterproductive to make it require it, else people would return them in droves
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post #958 of 1770 Old 02-04-2018, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post
I see it's a USB tuner for a PC.

No Ethernet connector though; just USB and an F-connector for the antenna. Does the PC provide the Internet connectivity for those targeted ads?
Wow - is ATSC 3.0 demodulation that radically different to DVB-T2? I can pick up a Microsoft Xbox One DVB-T2 USB tuner that happily receives UK 40.25Mbs muxes for GBP£10 (around US$15). They were available for around £6 at one point. Sure this is a bargain basement price (presumably the Xbox One Live TV functionality hasn't been popular, and I don't think PVR support happened).

Last time I checked there weren't Windows drivers - but Linux support has been there for a while. Couple two of those with a small ARM PC and you can build a nice TV Headend back-end for not a huge amount of money - or run TV Headend on a VM on a Server/NAS.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Official-Xb...70_&dpSrc=srch

You can pick up a Hauppauge Dual Tuner DVB-T2 stick for GBP £60 or less. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hauppauge-W...70_&dpSrc=srch

Even the first gen DVB-T2 sticks we got were still sub US$150 about 7 or 8 years ago. I know ATSC 3.0 has improved on DVB-T2 modulation a bit - but US $895 sounds more like an industrial solution for broadcasters than a consumer product?

Last edited by sneals2000; 02-04-2018 at 05:30 AM.
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The fact this thing comes with a complimentary "developer's toolkit" leads me to believe it's just that.. a tool. One for portable analysis of the signal and data either for station engineers or those designing devices for the consumer market.

What do you want to bet the TSReader people have already bought one and rented a condo in Raleigh?

As for internet connection, I'd hazard a guess that it'll be necessary for anything but the most basic functions. Probably required with the early models. The antenna-only-no-internet crowd isn't who this stuff is going to be marketed to. It'll be the higher-end videophiles such as us.. and we're already used to everything being connected. Smart TVs, Chromecast dongles, Roku devices.

But @aaronwt hit the nail on the head: There needs to be a gotta-have feature to get people to shell out for the things AND mess with antennas. And it's gotta have widespread availability to move enough devices to bring down the price.

I'm enough of a geek, I'll get one as soon as someone lights up a 3.0 near me.. but even $800 is far too steep for me. I put $700 into my first ATSC 1.0 receiver (granted, it did DirecTV and cable, too) and $250 for my second one (ATSC only). And, as noted upthread, that was 5 or 6 years after the first ATSC 1.0 signals lit up in Detroit.
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post #960 of 1770 Old 02-04-2018, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by kc9pke View Post
Just got word back from Bonnie Beeman of Airwavz.tv about pricing on that ATSC 3.0 stick her company produced.

$895

At this rate, after any potential regulatory and shipping fees it’s more economically justifiable to import a Korean box assuming those even support AC-4 alongside MPEG-H
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Originally Posted by pachinko View Post
Thanks for the info! Here's the web page for the RedZone Receiver: https://redzonereceiver.tv/
I've received word that they plan to go live with their online e-commerce store this week for the RedZone Receiver.
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