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post #1741 of 1928 Old 04-14-2019, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
It's all in the targeted and forced ads. Sure, you'll be able to watch what you want when you want. Skip ads? Not happening. Targeted ads you can't skip? Goldmine. It's already working for streamers. Local stations want some of that.
Oh yes, advertising is the main thing when it comes to monetizing 3.0. But I'm talking about the possibility that broadcasters will use some of their bandwidth on 3.0 towers for non-TV purposes, such as bitpooling and selling excess capacity for IoT purposes, or to handle some kinds of traffic for cellular providers, e.g. software downloads, etc.

Even with two stations sharing the same 3.0 tower, I'm not sure that they'll use all of that bandwidth on a bunch of free ad-supported subchannels. Yes, they'll put their main network affiliate on the .1 in 1080p and maybe the most popular diginets such as Me-TV and Cozi TV get stuck on the .2 in 720p. But will they simulcast all of those less popular SD subchannels over on the 3.0 tower in 480p? Maybe. Or maybe they just map the tuner over to the ATSC 1.0 tower for the .3 and .4 subchannels. A 3.0 tower transmitting two 1080p HDR and two 720p SDR subchannels (one of each from both collaborating stations) would use maybe 15 Mbps of bandwidth, leaving over 1/3 (maybe even 1/2) of the tower's total available bandwidth available for other commercial possibilities, such as subscription channels or, as I say above, non-video datacasting services.
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post #1742 of 1928 Old 04-14-2019, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by videobruce View Post
ME TV which runs/ran Star Trek has aired what I have to call re-mastered versions in 3x2 film aspect ratio. It doesn't quite fill a 16x9 display, but is surely isn't 4x3, nor is it 480i. And it isn't 'stretched'. That wasn't/isn't the only TV series that has a new life on that network. The difference is quality was amazing.
That sounds perfect for a 720p broadcast. Unfortunately our local MeTV channel is 480i (although it is 16:9), so Trek doesn't look particularly spectacular here.

We did have MeTV in HD on 47.1 for a hot minute, but then 47 dumped MeTV to go their own way instead. It didn't work out well for them; eventually they got bought by a company controlled by Sinclair, who replaced their entire channel lineup (except for one religious channel) with Sinclair channels. Meanwhile, MeTV reappeared on another station in 480i, where it's remained ever since.
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post #1743 of 1928 Old 04-14-2019, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
I remain convinced that H.264 will make a big part of the ATSC 3.0 conversion with the lowing percentage of HDTVs that cannot decode it.

SHF
I hope your right about that. I know there are a few who are very attached to their plasma TVs that may be too old to decode h.264, but they can add an under-$40 STB that will decode h.264 channels and output up to 1080p via either HDMI or, if their set's too old for that, component video. (And then add a $30 SanDisk flash drive, and have a basic DVR. Not bad for a $70 investment. But I know: two remotes? Quel horreur!) Also, I think a station could simulcast the same channel in h.262 SD and h.264 HD and still save bandwidth over an h.262 HD broadcast.

There are already a lot of dual- and even some triple-HD stations, at this point mostly due to the pressure on spectrum produced by repacking. The situation will only get worse as stations try out ATSC 3.0. The formula KSTR used in D/FW (move 3 stations' worth of content onto 2 ATSC 1.0 signals and one ATSC 3.0 signal) is a good one, but something still had to give. In this case, Univision had already switched from 1080i to 720p nationwide, and Unimas followed suit locally when they transitioned to ATSC 3.0. So we lost a bit of resolution. H.264 would probably have let the ATSC 1.0 broadcasts remain at 1080i.
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post #1744 of 1928 Old 04-14-2019, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post
I hope your right about that. I know there are a few who are very attached to their plasma TVs that may be too old to decode h.264, but they can add an under-$40 STB that will decode h.264 channels and output up to 1080p via either HDMI or, if their set's too old for that, component video.
I don't expect to see any ATSC 3.0 stations broadcasting content that's encoded in h.264. They'll all be using the more efficient HEVC h.265. But there's nothing to worry about because it'll be the external tuner, not your plasma (or LCD or OLED) TV that's doing the decoding of the signal, then delivering it to your TV via HDMI, or ethernet, or wifi (depending on which model external tuner you get and the capabilities of your TV). Doubtful we'll see ATSC 3.0 external tuners with component outputs though. I just don't think there would be enough market demand for it.
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post #1745 of 1928 Old 04-14-2019, 05:21 PM
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I was referring to h.264 on the lighthouse stations as it is included in ATSC 1.0 - 2.0.

But one reason not to use it is to force more ATSC 3.0 HDTV / adapter sets to be sold, the knowledge that their old HDTV could produce a better picture with h.264 may not actually be used and NEVER spoken about.

After all, the money to be made is in selling ATSC 3.0 sets, not satisficing the Lighthouse requirement which most stations would want to get rid of as soon as possible.

SHF

(Paperback sellers may be the big winners. )
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post #1746 of 1928 Old 04-15-2019, 08:26 AM
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Instead of displaying old shows in 4:3, MeTV cuts off the top and bottom of the picture to get close to 16:9.


You see many tops of heads cut off. It's awful. I emailed MeTV about to see if they would consider stopping it, but they never answered.


Thankfully Grit, LAFF and Cozi don't do this to 4:3 material
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post #1747 of 1928 Old 04-15-2019, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by ElevatorSkyMovie View Post
Instead of displaying old shows in 4:3, MeTV cuts off the top and bottom of the picture to get close to 16:9.


You see many tops of heads cut off. It's awful. I emailed MeTV about to see if they would consider stopping it, but they never answered.


Thankfully Grit, LAFF and Cozi don't do this to 4:3 material
They may have had only one attempt to run the original film through a projector / scanner, second and later attempts might fail. So one pass to crop to ~ 16:9 only possible.

In some cases the film may have been missing and a poorer source of the programs used. WKRP I saw was horrible fuzzy right from the first EP00001, some M.A.S.H. have also been reported as fuzzy although the ones I glanced at looked fine cropped to ~ 16:9.

SHF
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post #1748 of 1928 Old 04-16-2019, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
They may have had only one attempt to run the original film through a projector / scanner, second and later attempts might fail. So one pass to crop to ~ 16:9 only possible.

In some cases the film may have been missing and a poorer source of the programs used. WKRP I saw was horrible fuzzy right from the first EP00001, some M.A.S.H. have also been reported as fuzzy although the ones I glanced at looked fine cropped to ~ 16:9.

SHF

No, they do it on purpose to try to please the folks that don't like black bars on the sides of a 4:3 image.


Since most people have their tvs set to stretch the image, they should just leave it at 4:3 and let the users tv stretch the full image to not have black bars.


I would rather see stretched people than people with the tops of heads cut off.
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post #1749 of 1928 Old 05-10-2019, 12:06 PM
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Looks like Germany is testing out a next-gen broadcast TV system that is basically multicast streaming over long-range 5G wireless internet. The broadcast mode they're using is called FeMBMS: Further evolved Multimedia Broadcast Multicast Service.

Not clear to me whether or not they anticipate replacing the existing DBV-T2 system with this new protocol in the 2020s. While ATSC 3.0 is fully IP-based, the sort of 5G system that Germany is testing takes things a step further by making OTA TV just multicast IPTV-over-cellular (basically a 5G version of LTE-Broadcast).

https://www.tvtechnology.com/news/ge...-gets-underway
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post #1750 of 1928 Old 05-11-2019, 08:08 PM
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Looks like Germany is testing out a next-gen broadcast TV system that is basically multicast streaming over long-range 5G wireless internet. The broadcast mode they're using is called FeMBMS: Further evolved Multimedia Broadcast Multicast Service.

Not clear to me whether or not they anticipate replacing the existing DBV-T2 system with this new protocol in the 2020s. While ATSC 3.0 is fully IP-based, the sort of 5G system that Germany is testing takes things a step further by making OTA TV just multicast IPTV-over-cellular (basically a 5G version of LTE-Broadcast).

https://www.tvtechnology.com/news/ge...-gets-underway
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post #1751 of 1928 Old 05-12-2019, 06:51 AM
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Maybe more bandwidth than DVB-T2?
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post #1752 of 1928 Old 05-12-2019, 12:20 PM
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Maybe more bandwidth than DVB-T2?
Here are additional pieces I found interesting about broadcast TV on 5G. Not sure what the implications of this might be for ATSC 3.0 in the 2020s.

https://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2019...bile-networks/

https://blog.usejournal.com/how-5g-w...d-96ad1e42eea2
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post #1753 of 1928 Old 05-12-2019, 12:45 PM
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Hmm so a chance to have a global TV platform.

But who wants such a thing?

And it would have to be efficient in data usage of 5G networks or are they anticipating virtually unlimited bandwidth that video could soak up?

Actually wouldn't streaming be a global TV platform? You don't have to deal with 50 vs. 60 Mhz and such issues.
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post #1754 of 1928 Old 05-12-2019, 02:46 PM
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Hmm so a chance to have a global TV platform.

But who wants such a thing?
There are efficiencies of scale to be had when greater numbers of consumers are on the same technological platform. You can't get bigger than "global".

The reason why the internet is where all forms of media and communications are migrating is because the internet is a common, standardized technological platform. Once a legacy system migrates to the internet, it can communicate with all those other systems that are now part of it too. And they can all benefit from using cheaper commodity hardware and services as opposed to the more expensive customized solutions that were dedicated only to their legacy system.

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And it would have to be efficient in data usage of 5G networks or are they anticipating virtually unlimited bandwidth that video could soak up?
I'm not sure how this might actually be implemented. You might have TV being broadcast from dedicated towers, as has always been the case, except they're just streaming multicast video over 5G (the same way that, say, T-Mobile, AT&T, and Verizon could do). Or perhaps -- probably dependent on how a government licenses their spectrum and stipulates it to be used -- you might see a situation in which the 5G network operators (e.g. T-Mo, AT&T, Verizon or whatever the companies are in a given country) must devote a certain amount of their 5G bandwidth for free distribution of TV stations' live broadcasts (i.e. multicast streams), with the TV stations somehow compensating the networks for that bandwidth. Who knows?

At some point in the past as I pondered the nature of ATSC 3.0, I wondered why the US should maintain a separate system for free OTA broadcast TV, using its own towers and its own specialized broadcast radios on a certain reserved slice of the frequency spectrum. Why not just absorb the whole thing into cellular broadband? (This was just a thought I had, I'm not arguing that it's the better path to go down. "Devil's in the details" and all that.) I don't think the technology and the standards were there with 4G and LTE-Broadcast for such a scenario, but perhaps they will be with 5G and FeMBMS.

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Actually wouldn't streaming be a global TV platform? You don't have to deal with 50 vs. 60 Mhz and such issues.
Yes. And this idea of FeMBMS TV-over-5G is really just a way to turn broadcast television into a form of live point-to-multipoint streaming over wireless internet connections.

I'll say this: Sinclair is hoping that smartphone manufacturers and cellular service providers will get on board with their plan to include dedicated ATSC 3.0 tuner chips in phones. Like Dr. Don, I'm skeptical that will happen. If broadcasters want their free OTA TV on smartphones, it seems more likely to happen by just broadcasting your signals in a way that can natively reach tomorrow's 5G smartphones using the cellular industry (3GPP) standard hardware and software that they'll already have. And that's what FeMBMS-over-5G aims to do. (Of course, it could also be used to reach TVs and other screens in viewers' homes through fixed 5G connections.)
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post #1755 of 1928 Old 05-12-2019, 11:52 PM
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Reason why there would be parties who wouldn't want a universal or global TV platform is the reason why we had NTSC, PAL, SECAM.

Or different power plugs.

I'm sure there was nationalism and money to be made or not paid for patents, etc.

If 5G brings more bandwidth to the homes as US carriers are claiming, then we could stream and just circumvent all this BS.
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post #1756 of 1928 Old 05-13-2019, 05:52 AM
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.....
If 5G brings more bandwidth to the homes as US carriers are claiming, then we could stream and just circumvent all this BS.

That's a big if.
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post #1757 of 1928 Old 05-13-2019, 12:46 PM
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Yes. And this idea of FeMBMS TV-over-5G is really just a way to turn broadcast television into a form of live point-to-multipoint streaming over wireless internet connections.
So how do the cable companies fit into this? Are they in are is there going to be a battle?
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post #1758 of 1928 Old 05-14-2019, 05:05 PM
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So how do the cable companies fit into this? Are they in are is there going to be a battle?
Who knows? I don't think we yet know how ATSC 3.0 will fit into cable companies' plans, much less TV-over-5G (should it ever even become a reality here).
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post #1759 of 1928 Old 05-16-2019, 02:37 AM
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Good article for folks like me who aren't in the broadcast industry, but would like to get some idea how ATSC 3.0 might eventually play out. At least it made sense to me.


https://www.cnet.com/news/atsc-3-0-t...ng-eventually/


You folks in the industry might see if this writer knows what they're talking about.
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post #1760 of 1928 Old 05-16-2019, 07:00 AM
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You folks in the industry might see if this writer knows what they're talking about.
It's written as if compiled from a number of sources. The only glaring error I spotted on a quick read was this one:

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HD tuners were inexpensive when they first came out...
I wouldn't consider $250 (in 2001 dollars) inexpensive. IIRC, prices stayed lofty until the whole coupon-eligible converter scheme launched nearly ten years after the first ATSC station lit up. My first was a Zenith 1080 for $700 (ATSC OTA and MPEG-2 Directv in HD, QAM cable in SD only). My second was a used Samsung SIR-T for $175. It was years before the $50 converters turned up, and a lot of those didn't have HDMI or Component outputs.

Plus, the early ATSC tuners just tuned and decoded ATSC. This "Next Gen" tuner will need a host of additional capabilities: WiFI, some kind of storage (for pre-loading targeted advertising), a software suite that will do whatever broadcasters want it to do, emergency alert circuitry and many more things that are still unknown. Add in licensing costs and, without sales in the tens of millions, good luck making all of THAT for a 30-dollar price point.

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So how do the cable companies fit into this? Are they in are is there going to be a battle?
Same way they do, now. 5G is just a data-delivery technology as 4G is now. Cable companies will be faced with additional competition from the OTT services such as YouTube, DirecTV Now, etc. Some Cable companies already offer most of what their subscribers pay for via streaming. For example, there aren't many DirecTV channels we can't access via 4G, including local stations. Bright House (Now Spectrum) is even better at that, offering nearly everything via streaming.. and, with the saturation of hotspots around town, free of mobile data charges (assuming you also have Spectrum internet service).

I just wonder how long the 5G rollout will take. Apple's next phone, due this fall, won't have 5G. That's a chunk of the population. And, more to the topic, it's doubtful they'll ever include ATSC 3.0 capability.

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post #1761 of 1928 Old 05-16-2019, 09:13 AM
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I've been loosely following this discussion, but the other day 2 of the markets I get signals from were announced to be part of the test markets. I'd like to be involved in the testing, how do people get involved?
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post #1762 of 1928 Old 05-16-2019, 10:29 AM
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I've been loosely following this discussion, but the other day 2 of the markets I get signals from were announced to be part of the test markets. I'd like to be involved in the testing, how do people get involved?
Get a gig with the TV station's engineering department. Unlike software, I doubt there'll be any kind of a "public beta" test. You might see some local newspaper TV writers brought in for a demonstration or loaned a box, but as far as putting devices in homes, that'll be limited to station employees or engineering types.


Once a station has a signal that appears to meet all of the qualifications and standards and displays properly on the station's test gear, their work is done. Then, it's in the hands of device-makers. Now, if any of THEM opt to do some public testing, you might be able to get in on that.

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post #1763 of 1928 Old 05-16-2019, 10:37 AM
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Get a gig with the TV station's engineering department. Unlike software, I doubt there'll be any kind of a "public beta" test. You might see some local newspaper TV writers brought in for a demonstration or loaned a box, but as far as putting devices in homes, that'll be limited to station employees or engineering types.


Once a station has a signal that appears to meet all of the qualifications and standards and displays properly on the station's test gear, their work is done. Then, it's in the hands of device-makers. Now, if any of THEM opt to do some public testing, you might be able to get in on that.
Read an article in the freep or DETNews yesterday. That the company that owns tv20 and wdiv. Plan to begin broadcasting in ATSC 3.0 within a year. Tried to find the article to post in the MI thread. But was unable to locate it. Even so not sure if any ATSC 3.0 tuners are even available to purchase yet.

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post #1764 of 1928 Old 05-16-2019, 10:55 AM
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Read an article in the freep or DETNews yesterday. That the company that owns tv20 and wdiv. Plan to begin broadcasting in ATSC 3.0 within a year. Tried to find the article to post in the MI thread. But was unable to locate it. Even so not sure if any ATSC 3.0 tuners are even available to purchase yet.
Here's the best article, so far: https://www.tvtechnology.com/atsc3/s...by-end-of-2020

You'll note the emphasis on the automotive industry. Important to remember moving forward.

That said, keep a sharp eye on this one as WMYD is co-owned with WXYT (ABC affiliate).

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post #1765 of 1928 Old 05-16-2019, 11:01 AM
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Here's the best article, so far: https://www.tvtechnology.com/atsc3/s...by-end-of-2020

You'll note the emphasis on the automotive industry. Important to remember moving forward.

That said, keep a sharp eye on this one as WMYD is co-owned with WXYT (ABC affiliate).
Thank you for the link. Your right tv20 and abc. Was in a hurry reading the article. Had saved it for later

Found the link

https://www.wxyz.com/news/scripps-tv...vision-station

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post #1766 of 1928 Old 05-16-2019, 01:20 PM
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Once a station has a signal that appears to meet all of the qualifications and standards and displays properly on the station's test gear, their work is done. Then, it's in the hands of device-makers. Now, if any of THEM opt to do some public testing, you might be able to get in on that.
I'm still expecting to see retail 3.0-capable devices -- both external tuners and smart TVs with them built-in -- unveiled at the CES expo in Jan. 2020. Of course, a year ago I said I was expecting that to happen at CES 2019, which obviously didn't happen. But at least this time, I can point to public comments from LG to support my wishcasting.

https://www.tvtechnology.com/atsc3/s...-0-at-ces-2019
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post #1767 of 1928 Old 05-17-2019, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NashGuy View Post
I'm still expecting to see retail 3.0-capable devices -- both external tuners and smart TVs with them built-in -- unveiled at the CES expo in Jan. 2020. Of course, a year ago I said I was expecting that to happen at CES 2019, which obviously didn't happen. But at least this time, I can point to public comments from LG to support my wishcasting.

https://www.tvtechnology.com/atsc3/s...-0-at-ces-2019
Given the advancements in hardware development in the last 20 years they probably won't necessarily be expensive either. Prototype units expensive yes but consumer probably not.
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post #1768 of 1928 Old 05-17-2019, 02:55 PM
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Here's the best article, so far: https://www.tvtechnology.com/atsc3/s...by-end-of-2020

You'll note the emphasis on the automotive industry. Important to remember moving forward.

That said, keep a sharp eye on this one as WMYD is co-owned with WXYT (ABC affiliate).
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Originally Posted by LNEWoLF View Post
Thank you for the link. Your right tv20 and abc. Was in a hurry reading the article. Had saved it for later

Found the link

https://www.wxyz.com/news/scripps-tv...vision-station
Sounds like they have datacasting in mind. It's been done in other markets (using ATSC 1.0 of course, since 3.0 isn't ready yet) but special receivers (or at least something like an HDHR) were needed. ATSC 3.0 will provide more bandwidth, and of course the IP-packet-based architecture will likely eliminate the need for a special receiver (as ordinary ATSC 3.0 tuners will be designed to connect to a network).
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post #1769 of 1928 Old 05-20-2019, 10:43 AM
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From a thread that started to drift OT in the Detroit, MI HDTV thread...

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DRM will be a part of the rollout, there's no doubt about that. I DO think you can expect any 3.0 DVR to behave like cable DVRs and CableCARD devices: recordings are going to be glued to the machine they're recorded on and not off-loadable.
That is not the problem. For me, anyway. We don't offload our recordings, anyway. No, the problem is the entry barrier to DRM for manufacturers and software designers is incredibly high. Silicon Dust has been trying to get DRM recording working for just about forever. It's still not there. It'll certainly never be there on NAS devices running Linux or BSD. The Channels people aren't even considering it--on any platform. They simply don't have the financial resources or software development staff. Excerpt from An update on DRM support at Channels's forum:

Quote:
Our attempts at getting a DTCP-IP license from the DTLA have stalled out. The DTLA Adopter Agreement has a clause which imposes a $1 million - $8 million liability in case the DRM keys or methods are leaked by us or our app. Since we are a tiny company with nowhere near one million dollars, the DTLA has deemed us ineligible to be DTCP-IP licensees. Further, we’re having a really hard time making the economics of DTCP-IP work. Yearly costs for a DTCP-IP license keys start at $20k/year. Once we have the keys, we also need to license an SDK which implements the DRM algorithm. Then there are R&D costs to actually implement and test DTCP-IP in our app. These add up quickly, and even if we were to pass them onto the customers who want DRM support, it would be quite expensive per user
So what will happen after they DRM OTA TV is our current networked TV and DVR solution, in which we have a $1,000+ investment, will be rendered inoperable.

I will not be replacing it. I invested in Aereo. The broadcasters sank it. To replace what Aereo did for us I invested over $1,000. Now they're going to sink that. I won't be screwed by the TV broadcast industry a third time.

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I do think the end game is a DVR that won't let you FF past the commercial breaks but can and will allow for the insertion of ads that might not have played with the original airing. This allows stations to run the same game networks do with ads on streaming....
Don't even care quite so much about not being able to skip the adverts. When we watch live TV we simply ignore them, anyway. When they become too frequent, and the actual programming too short in relationship to the advert time, we simply turn it off--if not literally, then at least mentally. (We really have looked up and realized a program's over--having simply forgot to start watching again after another interminable commercial break. I kid you not.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
STB makers will go along with this as it'll be all-too-easy for broadcasters to block recordings for devices that don't comply.
I think mine, at least one of them, will simply go out of business. Since the other's DVR product is unsatisfactory, we simply won't DVR any more. That means we'll watch less TV. Far less TV, I suspect.

I would not be at all surprised to see all economical OTA TV DVR solutions disappear after OTA TV DRM becomes a reality.
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post #1770 of 1928 Old 05-20-2019, 05:51 PM
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I have to concur if I can't skip commercials when I record something that recording is of no value to me. I'm aware that the business model is based on watching commercials, but that model has been broken for decades and the networks and stations have survived. I think the baseline plan is to switch everyone to a paid subscription basis. If that is the case the only OTA viewers will be low income folks who are not the target audience. Gen z is already long gone from any real interest if TV, let alone OTA. It will be intersting to see how this shakes out.
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